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(MSNBC)   Rudy Giuliani in trouble for receiving holy communion during the pope's visit because he supports abortion rights. Jesus Christ   (msnbc.msn.com ) divider line
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5695 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:55 AM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-04-29 11:51:30 AM  
Y2Jericho: ...Any woman can claim to have been raped. If you support abortion after rape, then you may as well support unrestricted access to abortion...

++++++

Wow, you are one seriously cruel, misogynistic, paranoid and unsympathetic person.

Nice club you belong to there....
 
2008-04-29 11:51:47 AM  
Bah. Half the people there disagree with the church on one thing or another. Hell, in Scranton the Cath's are voting majority Democratic in every election and that, in and of itself, should deny them getting the eucharist based on abortion rights, gay marriage and the like.
 
2008-04-29 11:52:14 AM  
TruBluBaptist: The Psalmist says, "All my days were numbered before I was even born." If all our days were numbered before we were even born, abortion is the ultimate short-circuiting of God's will.

Or maybe it's the fulfillment of God's will.
 
2008-04-29 11:52:29 AM  
Yes, 6 years ago.

Good for you! Ready to handle a few million more?
 
2008-04-29 11:52:30 AM  
TruBluBaptist: Its one thing to disagree, as a Christian nation, on the manner to worship our God. It is different though, when we are talking about murder, which is what abortion is. I not only have the right, but the duty to prevent people from committing murder.

Lot of work ahead of you...

Start with going to the prisons and protesting executions.

Next go to the inner city and work with gangs, and while you are at it, show up at the schools too.

The problem with the "im stopping murder" argument is it is almost always constrained to abortion. Many of the more contemporary "pro-life" individuals who use such an argument have no problem with the death penalty.

What happens is certain murders become acceptable, and certain ones are not. Which leads to a relativist stance... and unlike any view held in the bible.

Whatever. I dont need a book to tell me how to be a good human being.
 
2008-04-29 11:52:31 AM  
kronicfeld: TruBluBaptist: God wants that child born.

And yet this omnipotent and omniscient being does not drop tornadoes on abortion clinics. How very odd.


The Lord works in mysterious ways, and it is not given unto us to comprehend him fully.
Also, you should know that God is always trying to test our faith in Him.
Remember, if faith was easy, everyone would believe.
 
2008-04-29 11:52:34 AM  
Y2Jericho:
I think there would be techniques to root out suspected liars.

Waterboarding
 
2008-04-29 11:52:39 AM  
It is different though, when we are talking about murder, which is what abortion is. I not only have the right, but the duty to prevent people from committing murder.

Do you know what a circular argument is.

You haven't at any stage demonstrated that abortion is murder.

The whole thing hinges on a Cartesian error.
 
2008-04-29 11:53:22 AM  
TheBlackFlag: Overfiend: Why does Fark hate religion?

Just a guess, but "Fark" Probably hates all sorts of dictatorial organizations that have caused the death and suffering of millions of people over adherence to their silly rules to their silly made up club.

Just a guess.

(But I understand that YOUR Clubhouse - sorry; Religion - is different and has only done good things for mankind)


I never claimed that any religion is perfect. I simply asked a question. As someone else pointed out - killing is not specific to religion (Stalin wasn't religious) - but it is part of human nature. Lots of things have been done wrong in the name of religion - but many more good things have been done in the name of religion. "Fark" is probably intolerant of religion because, like any large group of people, the most vocal seem to set the tone for the majority. And athesists have always been vocal about their non-beliefs and the "silliness" of believers.

As your post aptly points out.
 
2008-04-29 11:53:56 AM  
pvd021: I always considered being pro-choice as also being pro-life, since being pro-choice allows people to also be pro-life.

That makes sense and is a valid point.

Thanks!
 
2008-04-29 11:54:00 AM  
Watchman: That may be true, but those theologians do not hold the same belief as the catholic church. The church accepts the loss of a fetus as an unintended secondary effect, for example, of a hysterectomy needed to save the life of a mother or surgical removal of an ectopic pregnancy. The church rejects, however, direct abortion as a means to produce a beneficial side-effect to the mother.

Much better said than I.

ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

No, but it helps

/not a recovering Catholic... I think my case is terminal
 
2008-04-29 11:54:21 AM  
suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?


If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

TheBlackFlag:
Hey, you're the one that compared your faith to Stalin, not me.

No, you implied that religion is why everything is bad. I just pointed out that Stalin was an atheist and did equally a lot of stuff that was bad.
 
2008-04-29 11:54:26 AM  
ArcadianRefugee: TruBluBaptist: The Psalmist says, "All my days were numbered before I was even born." If all our days were numbered before we were even born, abortion is the ultimate short-circuiting of God's will.

Or maybe it's the fulfillment of God's will.


The fetus should not be killed, but it should be asked (or made) to leave if it's not welcome. Good luck to it. God will do with it as he wants, right?
 
2008-04-29 11:55:01 AM  
Tigger: You haven't at any stage demonstrated that abortion is murder.

Which it isn't. Murder, by definition, is an unlawful killing. If abortion is legal, then it cannot be murder.
 
2008-04-29 11:55:11 AM  
Inflatable Rhetoric: Jeez, TMI. I'm sorry she asked.

Sorry, I'm a reference librarian. I don't believe in the short answer.
 
2008-04-29 11:55:31 AM  
ExJerseyGirl: Waterboarding

It's called a "Freedom Bath" now.
 
2008-04-29 11:56:13 AM  
stormmaster83: When children or adults die unexpectedly, you very frequently hear that it is God's will.

Then you need to ask those people your question.
 
2008-04-29 11:56:14 AM  
Overfiend "Fark" is probably intolerant of religion because, like any large group of people, the most vocal seem to set the tone for the majority

Not quite sure what you mean. But anyway, i don't think most of Fark is intolerant of religion; I think it is intolerant of certain acts done in the name of religion. I don't care what people believe*, but when you start to try to convert me and tell me I'M a bad person for not believing like you.... well, I guess that makes me intolerant of that religious act.

*except scientology. That shiat's insane.
 
2008-04-29 11:56:18 AM  
The death penalty and abortion are not the same thing, many people oppose one and support the other. Many pro-lifers support the death penalty and many pro-choicers oppose it. Drawing strained parallels between the two is not a productive area of debate.
 
2008-04-29 11:56:19 AM  
Y2Jericho
It would be better if the woman were able to give birth to the child and give it up for adoption. However, nobody could ever ask a rape-pregnant victim to go through that for obvious physical and mental reasons.


Well, the "obvious" physical and mental reasons should be trumped by divine will, right? I mean, God didn't come down and prevent the rape victim from conceiving, right? So he must want the child to be born. To abort it would be an abomination before God.

What always gets me about the abortion debate is how pointless it is. Abortion is a terrible method of birth control, yet birth control is still the primary reason that people use it. We'll never get past the abortion problem until the Religious types pull their head out and realize that sex education is a good thing, not a plot by Satan.

Oh, and if anyone's wondering if TruBluBaptist is a troll, consider the following facts:

- The account was created three days ago,

- And his name is "Jim" from Jonesboro, Arkansas.

I LoL'ed.

/protest and dead soldiers funerals lately, reverend phelps?
 
2008-04-29 11:56:26 AM  
Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.


If you consider yourself pro-life and are ok with the death penalty, you're a hypocrite.

I doubt you should have to read any further to realize this.
 
2008-04-29 11:57:03 AM  
Oblio13: Y2Jericho: ...
Wasn't stalin an atheist?

He studied for the priesthood when he was young. Maybe that explains a lot. I don't know how he felt about the 2,000-year-old magical zombie later in life.

BTW, Hitler was a Catholic with the friendship and support of popes. He wasn't excommunicated during his lifetime.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Show me actual proof of Hitler being Catholic, and not just some website for nut jobs. Hitler was not Catholic.
 
2008-04-29 11:57:09 AM  
TruBluBaptist: It is different though, when we are talking about murder, which is what abortion is. I not only have the right, but the duty to prevent people from committing murder.

Except that the Old Testament laws provide different punishments for murder and the death of a fetus. This isn't the best reference, but it's a start. I'm sure you can find more on your own:
Link (new window)
 
2008-04-29 11:57:20 AM  
Overfiend: "Fark" is probably intolerant of religion because, like any large group of people, the most vocal seem to set the tone for the majority.

Do you really have no idea why there's a backlash against religion? Do you not notice the dozen stories a week where a religious person impinges on the rights of others in the name of their deity? Calling farkers out on our incivility is fine, as is chiding us for lumping all believers together - but if you really, honestly, have no idea why non-believers would be angry at religion, then you are either dishonest or willfully ignorant.
 
2008-04-29 11:57:38 AM  
cheezeburgermama: Inflatable Rhetoric: Jeez, TMI. I'm sorry she asked.

Sorry, I'm a reference librarian. I don't believe in the short answer.


I LOVE the way librarians stand up to the gov't and protect our privacy. THX THX THX
 
2008-04-29 11:57:56 AM  
Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

TheBlackFlag:
Hey, you're the one that compared your faith to Stalin, not me.

No, you implied that religion is why everything is bad. I just pointed out that Stalin was an atheist and did equally a lot of stuff that was bad.


********

Wrongo-bucko.

My point was exactly the opposite.

That FARK doesnt hate religion, it hates ALL authoritarian groups that cause pain and death on a massive scale.

Religion qualifies nicely on that point.

So do crazy dictators. And there arent many fans of them on FARK either.
 
2008-04-29 11:58:39 AM  
suebhoney: If you consider yourself pro-life and are ok with the death penalty, you're a hypocrite.

Well, for one, most use the term "pro-life" when what they really mean is "anti-abortion". "Pro-life" is just better marketing.

Now, if they were honest and just said "anti-abortion" there would be no apparent hypocrisy.
 
2008-04-29 11:58:43 AM  
ArcadianRefugee Tigger: You haven't at any stage demonstrated that abortion is murder.

Which it isn't. Murder, by definition, is an unlawful killing. If abortion is legal, then it cannot be murder


I think that those who say "abortion is murder" would argue that purely human-made laws are not superceded by God's laws.

/don't think that m'self, just saying.
 
2008-04-29 11:58:48 AM  
muzzrphochr: MasterThief: Well, your Eminence, with all due respect, if you're going to withhold Communion from pro-abortion politicians, then don't invite them to mass. Not even if the Pope is in town.

tukatz: I always wondered what those things were really made of.... kind of a styrofoam consistency.

It's just flour and water.

Eminence front, its a put on.


*clap clap clap clap*

I worked construction for a while when I was in my teens during the summer. There was this huge guy that would sing along with the radio changing words. He always sang "poke 'er inna butt! got shiat on!"
 
2008-04-29 11:59:42 AM  
So do crazy dictators. And there arent many fans of them on FARK either.

Except for all the fundamentalist christian Bush backers that frequent these forums.
 
2008-04-29 12:00:01 PM  
TruBluBaptist: The Lord works in mysterious ways, and it is not given unto us to comprehend him fully.

What if abortion is part of "his" plan? After all, he kills unaborted babies and children all the time.
 
2008-04-29 12:00:23 PM  
Which it isn't. Murder, by definition, is an unlawful killing. If abortion is legal, then it cannot be murder.

Only if you assume a one hundred percent correlation between positive and natural law.

The point I was making was that you have to demonstrate that abortion is the unethical killing of a human in order to say that it's unethical. You can't say 'abortion is wrong because it's the unethical killing of a human'
 
2008-04-29 12:01:31 PM  
MasterThief:
It's just flour and water.

You know who ELSE made bread out of only flour and water?

Oh wait... never mind, sorry.
 
2008-04-29 12:02:04 PM  
kronicfeld: TruBluBaptist: The Lord works in mysterious ways, and it is not given unto us to comprehend him fully.

What if abortion is part of "his" plan? After all, he kills unaborted babies and children all the time.


If it happens, it must be ok with god, or he would prevent it. If he doesn't care enough to intervene, that's a statement, too.
 
2008-04-29 12:02:28 PM  
yelmrog: What always gets me about the abortion debate is how pointless it is. Abortion is a terrible method of birth control, yet birth control is still the primary reason that people use it. We'll never get past the abortion problem until the Religious types pull their head out and realize that sex education is a good thing, not a plot by Satan.

Well said. If we would make sex ed and birth control more easily available, abortions would happen much less often. There are way too many people who conflate birth control, the morning-after pill, and abortion together as all the same, and all wrong.
 
2008-04-29 12:02:39 PM  
suebhoney: Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

If you consider yourself pro-life and are ok with the death penalty, you're a hypocrite.

I doubt you should have to read any further to realize this.


In the eyes of God, perhaps. Which is why I'm re-evaluating my stance on the death penalty.

Still, it's no more hypocrital than being pro choice and being against the death penalty.
 
2008-04-29 12:03:25 PM  
Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

Undoubtedly

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative


Must be nice to be able to put those things down and communicate so much. But which kind of Christian? And which life are you Pro on, all life, innocent life? And which kind of Conservative, Social, Fiscal, Constitutional?

/Christian, anti-Paulian, benevolent Christ kind
/Pro Life, in so far as we take care of what we have now, ie I'd support making abortion illegal in all but a few cases if adoption laws were fixed, foster care is better, and there is help for struggling parents, such that every child is born into a loving family, or can be placed into one and not into a life of destitution, white slavery, crime, etc.
/Conservative in the sense that as long as what you're doing doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I shouldn't care, nor try to legislate your morality.

PS. People who want to open the door for the majority to legislate morality have to be careful, because your morality may not always be in the majority, and your morals may not be seen as moral by the majority of the future. The classic Western Protestant Ethic hasn't been in the majority for a while, and depending on whether or not you're one of those Christians who believe that Catholicism is a "cult of Mary," Christianity may not even be in the majority any more. I know quite a few people who say they're Christian, but to them the only true Christians are Baptists, or Lutherans, etc. and each one of those are decidedly not in the majority.
 
2008-04-29 12:04:23 PM  
TruBluBaptist: Psalm 139: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

Look at the "I", "me" and "my" in the verse. He's talking about a baby in it's mother. He says, You created me, You saw me.... God is saying that's a person inside the mother, not a blob of tissue. He says, I've even planned every day before you were born. Other passages of Scripture say that God even knows your personality before you are born. God says that is a person in there. From a human viewpoint we may have unplanned pregnancies. But there are no accidental conceptions. Maybe we didn't plan it and maybe it even came as a result of some evil or sin, but there are no accidental conceptions. God says, "I planned it. I numbered the days of that child before it was even born. I know what it was like. I put it together with its genetic capabilities." God has a purpose in every one of them even though we don't have a purpose for every one of them. God says a fetus is not a tissue; it's a life I planned.


Maybe God planned for it to be aborted too then. Because if God has "numbered your days" and all that then he also knew exactly what the mother would do. It's all part of Gods plan then innit?
 
2008-04-29 12:04:24 PM  
Y2Jericho: when asked if the death penalty is murder: If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

Good for you. I had a similar change of heart after studying the NT, but it was sparked by a question a friend asked me: "Are you pro-life or just anti-abortion?" I found it impossible to reconcile the teachings of Jesus with the support of state-sanctioned killings. In the past year or so, my beliefs have shifted away from Christianity and more towards agnosticism (is that really a word?), but my opposition to the death penalty has remained.
 
2008-04-29 12:05:11 PM  
Y2Jericho:

Still, it's no more hypocrital than being pro choice and being against the death penalty.


Depends on when you think human life begins.
 
2008-04-29 12:05:19 PM  
Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

If you consider yourself pro-life and are ok with the death penalty, you're a hypocrite.

I doubt you should have to read any further to realize this.

In the eyes of God, perhaps. Which is why I'm re-evaluating my stance on the death penalty.

Still, it's no more hypocrital than being pro choice and being against the death penalty.


Not really. Pro choice != pro taking of human life for all reasons. Pro life would be against taking life, though.
 
2008-04-29 12:05:38 PM  
Religion and drugs are for the weak.
 
2008-04-29 12:05:58 PM  
Y2Jericho:
26%? It's really that high? If that's true then I had no idea.

Regardless, if I had to choose between my wife and my uborn child then I'd pick my wife everytime.


Its actually not. 26% is what you get when you divide the number of abortions by the number of live births, which is not correct. It should be (abortions)/(live births + abortions + still births + miscarriages after implantation + miscarriages prior to implantation)

- abortions and live births are accurately recorded.
- Still births are only partially reported.
- Miscarriages after implatation(what most people would consider pregnant) are highly under-reported especially in the first trimester when the physical impact to the body is much lower.
- There is stronger and stronger evidence that a woman's body naturally, dependant on age spontanously miscarries 33% to 50% of all fertilized eggs prior to implantation and shortly there after, such that the woman never knew she was pregnant. You have to add these in too since its the pro lifers that believe life begins at conception. These are by nature always unreported. BTW using pro-lifers definitions, this makes God the most prevalent abortionist in the world.

Oh yeah the thing about girls being aborted because they are girls, yeah thats pretty much BS too. Almost 90% of all abortions are done well before sex can be determined by ultra sound. There are earlier tests, but they are generally not performed that early for the purpose of sexing due to the danger imposed by the procedure.
 
2008-04-29 12:06:10 PM  
conflate birth control, the morning-after pill, and abortion together as all the same

You have to think they're the same if you're anti-abortion.

The only way you can be anti-abortion is to say that it is not the physical state of the cells that matter, it is that it becomes 'a person' and imbue it with some sort of soul.

Thus the fertilised eggs that don't implant in normal birth control use, the fertilised eggs that are expelled in morning after use, and the removal of non-viable tissue with no neurological functioning of any meaningful level are the same.

If you don't make them the same you ahve to start talking about the physiological elements that make something human not the spiritual ones. And the anti-abortion argument collapses at that point.
 
2008-04-29 12:06:35 PM  
apeiron242: Religion and drugs are for the weak.

Got any of the latter?
 
2008-04-29 12:06:50 PM  
horsecore: or why they worship the instrument of His death

The Centurion's spear?

ArcadianRefugee: Now, if they were honest and just said "anti-abortion" there would be no apparent hypocrisy.

Actually, anti-legal abortion, since many pro-lifers vote down social programs which would decrease the frequency of abortions.

Captain Darling: The death penalty and abortion are not the same thing, many people oppose one and support the other.

In order to have a consistent pro-life position, one has to be anti-capital punishment and anti-war. There's just no way around it.
 
2008-04-29 12:07:41 PM  
TruBluBaptist

Some make the argument, "No child should be brought into this world unwanted." The fallacy of that statement is that maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does. There is no unwanted child. God wants that child born. That's why He allowed that conception. Everyone matters to God and every conception and birth are not by accident. God planned it. He made them and He planned them. He wants everyone to know Him and He wants everyone to know that He loves them. He wants everyone in His family. When men and women get in touch with God and get to know their heavenly Father, life takes on new meaning and new significance.

So your god gets credit for all the impaired/deformed/retarded children born also... what great plans does he have for them? What about the large numbers of 'third world' children born in places that don't have enough food to sustain them or reasonable medical care to keep them alive for more than a few years of their 'eden-like' time on this earth... god wanted them to be born and endure pain and hunger before suffering a slow and painful death... neat... I wondered why that kind of crap happened.
 
2008-04-29 12:08:01 PM  
TheBlackFlag: Y2Jericho: suebhoney: Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

If I had to answer now; I would say yes. As I read more of the NT I'm starting to re-evaluate my stance on it.

TheBlackFlag:
Hey, you're the one that compared your faith to Stalin, not me.

No, you implied that religion is why everything is bad. I just pointed out that Stalin was an atheist and did equally a lot of stuff that was bad.

********

Wrongo-bucko.

My point was exactly the opposite.

That FARK doesnt hate religion, it hates ALL authoritarian groups that cause pain and death on a massive scale.

Religion qualifies nicely on that point.

So do crazy dictators. And there arent many fans of them on FARK either.


No, Fark hates religion. Farker Atheists think they're a higher quality of person because they believe everything started with a big explosion. Then, in their insecurity, attack religion daily claiming that religion is teh bad when there have been just as many atrocities in the world acted out by non-religious groups/people/etc.
 
2008-04-29 12:10:20 PM  
sojournee: Why does Fark hate religion? Good question. Is it fear that there is a God smarter than they are? That despite the wise and always arrogant postings in here about religion, that by ridiculing God and his representatives on earth that somehow they will enlighten the rest of us?

I often think of what I see and read in here as the electronic version of the crowds in the Roman arenas pointing thumbs down on anything that challenges their core beliefs. It is no wonder we live in a world so full of hatred and anger.

If the former mayor wishes to be a Catholic then he should be the best Catholic he can be. This requires that he follow all the Church teachings. If he chooses not to, then simply say I follow myself. This is what Lucifer said afterall. I will not serve. All sin is rebellion. All love is serving. Domino Vobiscum.


1/10 While well written, I feel like this is a jesus imitation rather than an opinion.
 
fj
2008-04-29 12:11:06 PM  
Sofa King Smart: So your god gets credit for all the impaired/deformed/retarded children born also... what great plans does he have for them?

Soylent green?
 
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