TheBlackFlag: Overfiend: Why does Fark hate religion?

Just a guess, but "Fark" Probably hates all sorts of dictatorial organizations that have caused the death and suffering of millions of people over adherence to their silly rules to their silly made up club.

Just a guess.

(But I understand that YOUR Clubhouse - sorry; Religion - is different and has only done good things for mankind)

Wasn't stalin an atheist?

Ilmarinen: Tyrone Slothrop: Ilmarinen

The way I understand it, the bread and wine turn magically into Jesus after you eat them.

You'd think that people who claim to follow the teachings of a man who taught through parables would understand what a metaphor is.

That's one of the things that amaze me about catholics. Along with their kneeling to statues despite the second commandment.

or why they worship the instrument of His death...

sojournee: Why does Fark hate religion? Good question. Is it fear that there is a God smarter than they are?

No, but that's an excellent strawman.

I often think of what I see and read in here as the electronic version of the crowds in the Roman arenas pointing thumbs down on anything that challenges their core beliefs. It is no wonder we live in a world so full of hatred and anger.

Like someone else posted, the Roman arenas were about entertainment, not theology.

If the former mayor wishes to be a Catholic then he should be the best Catholic he can be. This requires that he follow all the Church teachings. If he chooses not to, then simply say I follow myself. This is what Lucifer said afterall. I will not serve. All sin is rebellion. All love is serving. Domino Vobiscum.

This is why people are freaked out by religion. Blindly following the Church without thinking for oneself. And the creepy sloganeering doesn't help either.

firefly212: Srsly... if we're going to claim this "Christian" mandate, why do we only do it when it's with convenient laws effecting other people, yet deny such a mandate to help others and be more Christian exists whenever it actually requires time/effort/money on our part?

I believe it is due to a belief that if a person is aborted, universal healcare, food stamps, education, and freedom from torture are irrelevant. It's not that abortion is the only human rights issue, only that abortion removes the possibility of any subsequent rights and as such should take a place of primacy within the larger human rights struggle.

TruBluBaptist: As a Christian and a Baptist, I do not believe in abortion under any circumstance. I believe that God says NO to abortion:

Psalm 139: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

You're reading more into those words than are actually there. That just says your body is first built in the womb... which I think we already knew. Says nothing about when you become alive. Never mind that the entire topic of that paragraph is about God knowing you before you existed and it is not really about making your body.

It's a baby at the moment of conception, then what the hell are identical twins?

Limeade: If you're Catholic you are not supposed to take communion if there is any sin on your soul.

/*sigh*

True. But if all us sinners adhered to that, or if the higher-ups made us, no one would go to Mass anymore, and the Church would probably pretty much dry up (eventually). I don't think there are many, if any, fundamentalist Catholics anyway. At least I'm trying to be a good 'un while keeping with the changing times.

/¡Viva Vatican II!

sojournee: Why does Fark hate religion? Good question. Is it fear that there is a God smarter than they are? That despite the wise and always arrogant postings in here about religion, that by ridiculing God and his representatives on earth that somehow they will enlighten the rest of us?

I often think of what I see and read in here as the electronic version of the crowds in the Roman arenas pointing thumbs down on anything that challenges their core beliefs. It is no wonder we live in a world so full of hatred and anger.

I'd say the problem is misrepresentation on both sides. Most of the good the various Christian churches do are not things that get reported. For example, my mother-in-law became a Catholic as her husband suffered and eventually succumbed to cancer. The way that the Catholics helped her through her grief and gave her a way to cope is something that doesn't get posted to Fark.

Instead Farkers see news stories about Creationists, the WBC, pedophile priests, images on grilled cheese sandwiches, Wright, Hagee, the greed and hypocrisy of evangelists, etc..

It's not surprising that there is an overall imbalance in how Farkers view religion.

But...

I remember back when there was a shootout at a Mennonite church. The Mennonites forgave the shooter and helped his family. I remember many Farkers were genuinely touched by the display of humility, forgiveness, and love. So, there's hope.

/Agnostic Atheist
//Not really sure if it was Mennonites, may have been Quakers.. But one of those groups.
///It was a while ago, my memory's hazy

TruBluBaptist: The Psalmist says, "All my days were numbered before I was even born." If all our days were numbered before we were even born, abortion is the ultimate short-circuiting of God's will.
If that's the case, then doesn't God already know that the fetus will be aborted? If the tragic death of adults can be ascribed to God's will, then why not the death of the unborn?

Keep yer sky wizard outta my vagina ;-)

stormmaster83: TruBluBaptist: The Psalmist says, "All my days were numbered before I was even born." If all our days were numbered before we were even born, abortion is the ultimate short-circuiting of God's will.
If that's the case, then doesn't God already know that the fetus will be aborted? If the tragic death of adults can be ascribed to God's will, then why not the death of the unborn?

Just because God knows the outcome of any event doesn't mean that that is God's will.

Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

Y2Jericho: I would agree with you with the exception of the mother's life being endangered and rape.

I'd choose my wife over an unborn child.
Rape is more of grey area, but if the woman didn't consent to the sex then she should have a right to abort it under law.

ANY other circumstance then abortion is wrong and ought to be illegal.

Any woman can claim to have been raped. If you support abortion after rape, then you may as well support unrestricted access to abortion, and work to prevent abortion by non-coercive means.

Tigger: I only recognize the King James version. This is a heresy!

A bible commmissioned by a Scottish Protestant who accidentally became King of a country who had abandoned the entire Catholic church because their fat crazy king fancied a younger hotter wife?

Yeah, but it sounds more "biblical."

TruBluBaptist: As a Christian and a Baptist, I do not believe in abortion....

******

That's like saying you dont believe in cars or trees. They are all real.

If you dont believe in them, why so upset if they arent real?

Things like Sasquatch, Ghosts or an imaginary creator that you can choose to believe in or not.

stormmaster83: If that's the case, then doesn't God already know that the fetus will be aborted?

You're confusing omniscience with predestination. You're not alone.

Overfiend: Why does Fark hate religion?

Because most Farkers don't understand it.

Watchman: Inflatable Rhetoric: Because superstition is silly.

And where'd you get that particular piece of superstition?

It's not a superstition, it's a fact. Do you agree, or do you wait for the Tooth Fairy?

Y2Jericho: This should be an educated forum of Religion/Abortion. I anticipate a rigid debate of the internet's finest.

/Christian
/Pro Life
/Conservative

Do you believe in the death penalty?

Flt209er: TruBluBaptist: Psalm 139: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be."

If I may play god's advocate here, why is any of this necessarily being "spoken", so to speak, by an unborn baby? In addition to the "me"s and "my"s there's a whole slew of past tense verbs in that passage. If you were to strip the "Psalm 139" from the beginning, this statment would be valid for anyone with any belief in any god to make. If you're one of those astrology types, you could even apply it to the planet Neptune or Sha Ka Ree or anything else. It's a very broad statement; and who's to say that god's plan for any given persion did not involve an early death?

Not a snarky question, but are there any other passages (besides the "thou shalt not murder" type stuff) that solidify the "under no circumstances" belief? More specifically, how can the above passage jive with the psalms 136-137 passages?



Some make the argument, "No child should be brought into this world unwanted." The fallacy of that statement is that maybe the parents don't want the child, but God does. There is no unwanted child. God wants that child born. That's why He allowed that conception. Everyone matters to God and every conception and birth are not by accident. God planned it. He made them and He planned them. He wants everyone to know Him and He wants everyone to know that He loves them. He wants everyone in His family. When men and women get in touch with God and get to know their heavenly Father, life takes on new meaning and new significance.

ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

No.

And what kind of Jersey girl are you? You should know that shiat.

jerky on the veldt: Jesus was black, y'all

Come on, we all know from communion that he was a cracker!

/cracker...wafer...close enough
//ok, i'm done now

chaoswolf: God says abortion is killing. If you don't want to believe that then you'd better cut those verses out of the Bible because God said them.

Anything to piss off the christian god is a good thing in my book. More abortions! We need the population control!

Adopted any kids lately, TruBluBaptist?

Yes, 6 years ago.

Inflatable Rhetoric: It's not a superstition, it's a fact.

That's what all the superstitious say.

Blah Blah Blah! This, That.....the Other. Whatever. Its their Church and their rules. You can't say you are a member of a religion when you don't believe what that religion says its all about. You don't like it or believe it then start your own damn religion or join one that does support your belief system / philosophy. You believe Priests should be allowed to get married and you our "Catholic" then perhaps you'd be better off being an Episcopalian. Plenty of other examples I could use but it would take to long. I didn't agree with the Catholic doctrine so I left. But....I have enough respect for others that when I am with family or friends at a Catholic Service, I do not engage in acts that are disrespectful to their beliefs, things like taking Holy Communion in an unclean state. For those of you who don't know or don't remember, you are not allowed to take Holy Communion if you are in a state of "sin" and you should have gone to confession beforehand to get absolution. Rudy was wrong. Too bad for him.

Y2Jericho: TheBlackFlag: Overfiend: Why does Fark hate religion?

Just a guess, but "Fark" Probably hates all sorts of dictatorial organizations that have caused the death and suffering of millions of people over adherence to their silly rules to their silly made up club.

Just a guess.

(But I understand that YOUR Clubhouse - sorry; Religion - is different and has only done good things for mankind)

Wasn't stalin an atheist?

He is a good example of another person or group of dictitorial means that killed millions and caused millions more to suffer. So, along with the Catholic Church, he would qualify.

You are doing well. Can you think of any other dictatorial groups or people that have caused death and suffering that Fark should not like?

Hey, you're the one that compared your faith to Stalin, not me.

importedbeer: TruBluBaptist: As a Christian and a Baptist, I do not believe in abortion under any circumstance.

Then don't have one.

It is great to have principles. But when you are forcing others to follow your principles you are not being a good Christian....you are pretending to BE God.

Its one thing to disagree, as a Christian nation, on the manner to worship our God. It is different though, when we are talking about murder, which is what abortion is. I not only have the right, but the duty to prevent people from committing murder.

Watchman: Inflatable Rhetoric: It's not a superstition, it's a fact.

That's what all the superstitious say.

OUT OF CONTEXT!!! The Easter Bunny will get you for that.

firefly212
Srsly... if we're going to claim this "Christian" mandate, why do we only do it when it's with convenient laws effecting other people, yet deny such a mandate to help others and be more Christian exists whenever it actually requires time/effort/money on our part?

forget Christian, try human being. I am not a Christian, I can't stand organized religion. but I speak up when I think something is wrong, evenif it doesn't affect me.

most people, religious and non-religious alike, are too self-absorbed to fight for the rights of others. I went to a rally for immigration rights, and everyone was spanish. In the 60's it was mostly black people fighting for their own rights. If people are oppressed, very few people ever say or do anything about it unless they are the victims of that oppression.

The problem with the anti-abortion movement is that the victims can't fight for themselves, and its only a few passionate people who are trying to save them.

pinch_harmonics: ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

No.

And what kind of Jersey girl are you? You should know that shiat.

You do if you have committed a mortal sin.

pinch_harmonics: ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

No.

And what kind of Jersey girl are you? You should know that shiat.

Presbyterian

*fluffs hair, snaps gum*

I always considered being pro-choice as also being pro-life, since being pro-choice allows people to also be pro-life.

Chester the Snake: Overfiend: Why does Fark hate religion?

Because most Farkers don't understand it.

Most Farkers have been involved with religion at one point in their lives and have rejected it. To say that they don't understand it is a cop-out.

Captain Darling: Y2Jericho: I would agree with you with the exception of the mother's life being endangered and rape.

I'd choose my wife over an unborn child.
Rape is more of grey area, but if the woman didn't consent to the sex then she should have a right to abort it under law.

ANY other circumstance then abortion is wrong and ought to be illegal.

Any woman can claim to have been raped. If you support abortion after rape, then you may as well support unrestricted access to abortion, and work to prevent abortion by non-coercive means.

They could, and I'm sure some would. I think there would be techniques to root out suspected liars.

I didn't say I support rape abortions. I implied they have more justification if since the woman did not give sexual consent.

It would be better if the woman were able to give birth to the child and give it up for adoption. However, nobody could ever ask a rape-pregnant victim to go through that for obvious physical and mental reasons.

Y2Jericho: Captain Darling: Y2Jericho: I would agree with you with the exception of the mother's life being endangered and rape.

I'd choose my wife over an unborn child.
Rape is more of grey area, but if the woman didn't consent to the sex then she should have a right to abort it under law.

ANY other circumstance then abortion is wrong and ought to be illegal.

Any woman can claim to have been raped. If you support abortion after rape, then you may as well support unrestricted access to abortion, and work to prevent abortion by non-coercive means.

They could, and I'm sure some would. I think there would be techniques to root out suspected liars.

I didn't say I support rape abortions. I implied they have more justification if since the woman did not give sexual consent.

It would be better if the woman were able to give birth to the child and give it up for adoption. However, nobody could ever ask a rape-pregnant victim to go through that for obvious physical and mental reasons.

Do you agree with the death penalty?

kronicfeld: TruBluBaptist: God wants that child born.

And yet this omnipotent and omniscient being does not drop tornadoes on abortion clinics. How very odd.

But, he does get pissed off and kill some more kids in Africa. He's not just an asshole, he's incompetent.

So, lemme get this straight, because he doesn't stop people from removing undeveloped pieces of flesh from their bodies, he's not allowed to partake in cannibalism?

ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

You must go to confession to receieve Communion if you have a mortal sin on your soul; the venial sins are taken care of in the Mass during the opening prayers ("I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault etc etc.")

The idea is that God is perfection, therefore you must be as close to perfection as possible in order to physically be joined with him in the act of Communion.

Excerpted from the website Catholic Answers:

The Church sets out specific guidelines regarding how we should prepare ourselves to receive the Lord's body and blood in Communion. To receive Communion worthily, you must be in a state of grace, have made a good confession since your last mortal sin, believe in transubstantiation, observe the Eucharistic fast, and, finally, not be under an ecclesiastical censure such as excommunication.

First, you must be in a state of grace. "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup" (1 Cor. 11:27-28). This is an absolute requirement which can never be dispensed. To receive the Eucharist without sanctifying grace in your soul profanes the Eucharist in the most grievous manner.

A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28-29). Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Gal. 5:19-21). For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Out of habit and out of fear of what those around them will think if they do not receive Communion, some Catholics, in a state of mortal sin, choose to go forward and offend God rather than stay in the pew while others receive the Eucharist. The Church's ancient teaching on this particular matter is expressed in the Didache, an early Christian document written around A.D. 70, which states: "Whosoever is holy [i.e., in a state of sanctifying grace], let him approach. Whosoever is not, let him repent" (Didache 10).

Second, you must have been to confession since your last mortal sin. The Didache witnesses to this practice of the early Church. "But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one" (Didache 14).

The 1983 Code of Canon Law indicates that the same requirement applies today. "A person who is conscious of a grave sin is not to . . . receive the body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible" (CIC 916).

The requirement for sacramental confession can be dispensed if four conditions are fulfilled: (1) there must be a grave reason to receive Communion (for example, danger of death), (2) it must be physically or morally impossible to go to confession first, (3) the person must already be in a state of grace through perfect contrition, and (4) he must resolve to go to confession as soon as possible.

Third, you must believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation. "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself" (1 Cor. 11:29). Transubstantiation means more than the Real Presence. According to transubstantiation, the bread and wine are actually transformed into the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, with only the appearances of bread and wine remaining. This is why, at the Last Supper, Jesus held what appeared to be bread and wine, yet said: "This is my body. . . . This is my blood" (Mark 14:22-24, cf. Luke 22:14-20). If Christ were merely present along side bread and wine, he would have said "This contains my body. . . . This contains my blood," which he did not say.

Fourth, you must observe the Eucharistic fast. Canon law states, "One who is to receive the most Holy Eucharist is to abstain from any food or drink, with the exception only of water and medicine, for at least the period of one hour before Holy Communion" (CIC 919 §1). Elderly people, those who are ill, and their caretakers are excused from the Eucharistic fast (CIC 191 §3). Priests and deacons may not dispense one obligated by the Eucharistic fast unless the bishop has expressly granted such power to them (cf. CIC 89).

Finally, one must not be under an ecclesiastical censure. Canon law mandates, "Those who are excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others who obstinately persist in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to Holy Communion" (CIC 915).

Provided they are in a state of grace and have met the above requirements, Catholics should receive the Eucharist frequently (cic 898).

Watchman: stormmaster83: If that's the case, then doesn't God already know that the fetus will be aborted?

You're confusing omniscience with predestination. You're not alone.

No, I'm not. I understand the difference. You left off the next sentence, which is rather important. When children or adults die unexpectedly, you very frequently hear that it is God's will. Why not the same with the unborn? There's an inconsistency here which you don't hear addressed (at least not in public).

You're confusing omniscience with predestination. You're not alone.

And how, pray tell, does one have omniscience without knowledge of all events, past, present and future?

If the christian god is all knowing, all powerful and all loving, then no one would ever go to hell.

It works like this:

The god creates all life. The god knows beforehand the outcome of that life.

If the life gets aborted, the god knew that before creating the life.

If the life chooses to fark wit da jesus, that life spends eternity in hell, an outcome already known to occur by the omniscient god.

Therefore the christian god is not all loving. It creates life specifically to torture it for all eternity.

OR

The christian god is not all knowing. It creates life but is incapable of knowing the outcome of that life.

Either way, the bible is a bunch of bullshiat fiction that should not be taken seriously.

Y2Jericho: ...
Wasn't stalin an atheist?

He studied for the priesthood when he was young. Maybe that explains a lot. I don't know how he felt about the 2,000-year-old magical zombie later in life.

BTW, Hitler was a Catholic with the friendship and support of popes. He wasn't excommunicated during his lifetime.

bemis23: point of pure semantics but hugely important to Catholics and a good way to giggle at them when their


Nobody understands the word "Venerate" until they meet a knowledgeable Catholic.

I don't blame the Cardinal for having the opinion he does - it's their club and it's their call on this issue and if he doesn't like it, he shouldn't be supporting them anyway. On the other hand, I find it extremely distateful, to say the least, that Egan is discussing his beef with the media rather than with Giuliani personally.

cheezeburgermama: ExJerseyGirl: Question for Catholics -- do you have to go to confession before you take communion?

You must go to confession to receieve Communion if you have a mortal sin on your soul; the venial sins are taken care of in the Mass during the opening prayers ("I confess to Almighty God, and to you my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault etc etc.")

The idea is that God is perfection, therefore you must be as close to perfection as possible in order to physically be joined with him in the act of Communion.

Excerpted from the website Catholic Answers:

The Church sets out specific guidelines regarding how we should prepare ourselves to receive the Lord's body and blood in Communion. To receive Communion worthily, you must be in a state of grace, have made a good confession since your last mortal sin, believe in transubstantiation, observe the Eucharistic fast, and, finally, not be under an ecclesiastical censure such as excommunication.

First, you must be in a state of grace. "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup" (1 Cor. 11:27-28). This is an absolute requirement which can never be dispensed. To receive the Eucharist without sanctifying grace in your soul profanes the Eucharist in the most grievous manner.

A mortal sin is any sin whose matter is grave and which has been committed willfully and with knowledge of its seriousness. Grave matter includes, but is not limited to, murder, receiving or participating in an abortion, homosexual acts, having sexual intercourse outside of marriage or in an invalid marriage, and deliberately engaging in impure thoughts (Matt. 5:28-29). Scripture contains lists of mortal sins (for example, 1 Cor. 6:9-10 and Gal. 5:19-21). For further information on what constitutes a mortal sin, see the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Out of habit and out of fear of what those around them will think if they do not receive Communion, some Catholics, in a state of mortal sin, choose to go forward and offend God rather than stay in the pew while others receive the Eucharist. The Church's ancient teaching on this particular matter is expressed in the Didache, an early Christian document written around A.D. 70, which states: "Whosoever is holy [i.e., in a state of sanctifying grace], let him approach. Whosoever is not, let him repent" (Didache 10).

Second, you must have been to confession since your last mortal sin. The Didache witnesses to this practice of the early Church. "But first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one" (Didache 14).

The 1983 Code of Canon Law indicates that the same requirement applies today. "A person who is conscious of a grave sin is not to . . . receive the body of the Lord without prior sacramental confession unless a grave reason is present and there is no opportunity of confessing; in this case the person is to be mindful of the obligation to make an act of perfect contrition, including the intention of confessing as soon as possible" (CIC 916).

The requirement for sacramental confession can be dispensed if four conditions are fulfilled: (1) there must be a grave reason to receive Communion (for example, danger of death), (2) it must be physically or morally impossible to go to confession first, (3) the person must already be in a state of grace through perfect contrition, and (4) he must resolve to go to confession as soon as possible.

Third, you must believe in the doctrine of transubstantiation. "For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself" (1 Cor. 11:29). Transubstantiation means more than the Real Presence. According to transubstantiation, the bread and wine are actually transformed into the actual body, blood, soul, and divinity of Christ, with only the appearances of bread and wine remaining. This is why, at the Last Supper, Jesus held what ap ...

Jeez, TMI. I'm sorry she asked.