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(MSNBC)   Rudy Giuliani in trouble for receiving holy communion during the pope's visit because he supports abortion rights. Jesus Christ   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 465
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5688 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Apr 2008 at 10:55 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-04-29 01:46:50 PM
JDAT: I do, but I don't see the child having any choice here do you?
That is my gripe. We are not talking about suicide here.


Why do you think it's your job to punish or prevent sinful acts in this case, but not in others? Why not leave the punishment for abortion to God if that's what you think he will do? Surely if he's a just God, and fetuses really are people, he wouldn't send them to hell. Why does he need your help in this case and not others? Or do you think that all of "God's laws" as interpreted by you should be enforced by the civil authorities here on Earth too?
 
2008-04-29 01:47:09 PM
Inflatable Rhetoric: I covered that. Don't kill it, just evict it.

It's not just an eviction. An eviction would be more of the adoption route.
 
2008-04-29 01:48:14 PM
JDAT: theknuckler_33: JDAT: No, but they are for making abortion legal. That's pro death.

Do you think there should be a constitutional amendment banning marital infidelity?

Why?
Does the constitution provide for the right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, and a faithful spouse???


The constitution does not provide for the right to life either (thats in the Declaration of Independence).
 
2008-04-29 01:48:54 PM
JDAT: Inflatable Rhetoric: I covered that. Don't kill it, just evict it.

It's not just an eviction. An eviction would be more of the adoption route.


Ok, then, no problem. Now locate someone willing to adopt a 12 week old fetus.
 
2008-04-29 01:50:34 PM
mccallcl: Inflatable Rhetoric: If they claim some "higher power", they must be held to a higher standard.

You are just restating your point here. I already identified religious institutions that do not believe in any kind of monotheistic God entity and you haven't proven that belief in a higher power is sole criterion for being held to an arbitrarily high standard (or what that standard even is).


We don't disagree, then. The church is just another corporation, formed by a group of people trying to make a profit.
 
2008-04-29 01:51:04 PM
Mnemia: JDAT: I do, but I don't see the child having any choice here do you?
That is my gripe. We are not talking about suicide here.

Why do you think it's your job to punish or prevent sinful acts in this case, but not in others? Why not leave the punishment for abortion to God if that's what you think he will do? Surely if he's a just God, and fetuses really are people, he wouldn't send them to hell. Why does he need your help in this case and not others? Or do you think that all of "God's laws" as interpreted by you should be enforced by the civil authorities here on Earth too?


1. It's not my job. I never said it was.
2. God does not need my help to punish, see #1
3. See #1 for the rest of your questions.
 
2008-04-29 01:52:09 PM
JDAT: Xomber: JDAT: Pwnzor: JDAT: 2. Adoption is still on the table.
That is the problem with you people, when called to be responsible for your actions you either get pissy, or just put them on the people who will not advocate you living like an animal. And by the way there is a long list of people here in the states who want to adopt and are willing to pay all expenses.
And the trouble with people like you is that you try to force your ideas of what should and should not be done on the rest of us.
if you were such a firm believer of personal responsibility you STFU and let people make their choices and live with the consequences.

I do, but I don't see the child having any choice here do you?
That is my gripe. We are not talking about suicide here.


What child?
How do you put a term limit on what to call a "child"?

Look, I don't agree with abortion as a choice(with exceptions), but I am no one to dictate what choices others should or should not have.
 
2008-04-29 01:52:18 PM
JDAT: 1. It's not my job. I never said it was.
2. God does not need my help to punish, see #1
3. See #1 for the rest of your questions.


OK then, so I take it you're fine with legal abortion then? Because you can't enforce a law against it without some kind of punishment.
 
mpt
2008-04-29 01:53:00 PM
Unright: tukatz: I always wondered what those things were really made of.... kind of a styrofoam consistency.

Body of Christ. Apparently Jesus also saves your packaged goods from getting damaged.


Holy Christ hot coffee out the nose HURTS.
 
2008-04-29 01:54:11 PM
Mine comes from seeing pictures of these babies in the womb. I see a head, arms, hands, legs, feet, torso, etc. That is indeed a child living inside of the womb and the "procedure" is downright brutal

No it is not.

It LOOKS like a baby. It has none of the neurological properties of a baby. Even though it looks like a baby it cannot think or feel in any meaningful emotional way.

I'm sure you'll claim otherwise but when it comes to the actual nature of the child's brain I hope that my two degrees in neuroscience carry more weight than your post rationalised Cartesian foolishness.
 
2008-04-29 01:58:11 PM
Tigger: I hope that my two degrees in neuroscience

You have two degrees in neuroscience and you work in advertising?
 
2008-04-29 01:58:49 PM
Dynascape: I dont need a book to tell me how to be a good human being.

Hear, hear. In a way I think it's more impressive to have morals of your own decision rather than someone telling you to act in a certain way for fear of retribution from a vengeful god.
 
2008-04-29 01:59:32 PM
Mnemia: JDAT: 1. It's not my job. I never said it was.
2. God does not need my help to punish, see #1
3. See #1 for the rest of your questions.

OK then, so I take it you're fine with legal abortion then? Because you can't enforce a law against it without some kind of punishment.


No, I'm not. Do you think that if I am not one to punish for such acts I'm OK with them? Is that you reasoning here?

I see this as a terrible injustice to the child. Be it 1st term, late term, or partial birth abortion I believe it is murder. Should I be OK with it just because it is legal? Just because something is legal doesn't mean you are OK with it.
 
2008-04-29 01:59:36 PM
Bhopper: Perhaps all Catholics who do not follow the written rules of the Church, word-for-word, should skip the collection basket, huh, Cardinal Egan? I wonder what he'd have to say about that?


THIS is a great idea.

To contribute to the Church, you must follow ALL of it's teachings, doctrines etc...

I think the Church would do a pretty quick about-face regarding "Laundry List" or "Buffet" Christians.

That said, the Catholic Church wrote the book on hypocrisy and convenient truths.

How bloody ridiculous is it for a bunch of (Supposedly) celibate MEN to tell a woman what she can and cant do with her own body.

 
2008-04-29 02:01:12 PM
JDAT: Pwnzor: JDAT: 2. Adoption is still on the table.

I have a great idea! How about all Pro-Life supporters register in a national database, and the Govenrment makes abortion illegal. From that point on, every time an unwanted baby is born, the baby and the hospital bills are given to the next Pro-Lifer on the list. Abortion is averted, Pro-Lifer gets to walk his talk. Everyone winz!
That is the problem with you people, when called to be responsible for your actions you either get pissy, or just put them on the people who will not advocate you living like an animal. And by the way there is a long list of people here in the states who want to adopt and are willing to pay all expenses.


Actually, you're 100% right about the adoption thing. In all seriousness, how is it so hard for anyone in the US to adopt a US baby if there are so many unwanted pregnancies happening? There has to be something else to it...

But as for the "responsibility" thing, I think that a mother who can not mentally, emotionally, or financially support a child -- regardless of the means of conception -- laziness, stupidity, rape, or otherwise -- is indeed taking responsibility if she wants to abort. It's when someone tells her she can't that the ability to take responsibility is stripped away. Abortion is an issue between a woman and her God. Not you or the government.

And as for living like an animal... we're all animals.
 
2008-04-29 02:01:15 PM
You have two degrees in neuroscience and you work in advertising?

Yes

It's a lot better paid.
 
2008-04-29 02:01:28 PM
Xomber: Look, I don't agree with abortion as a choice(with exceptions), but I am no one to dictate what choices others should or should not have.


Who is dictating? Do I have the ability to dictate anything here?
 
2008-04-29 02:03:05 PM
Mnemia: OK, whatever, don't believe me - I've researched this in much more detail in the past, and I don't feel like doing it right now.

I would say I was disappointed if I wasn't so thoroughly unsurprised.

Mnemia: I would say this would be a great idea, except that we know a disproportionate fraction of pro-lifers are pedophiles (since they include Catholic priests).

Here you go again! Care to back up this claim, or do you want to skip straight to "I don't feel like doing it right now"?

Mnemia: And your belief that it is is purely an arbitrary and subjective religious belief.

A belief in God is not necessary in order to view the fetus as a living human being.

Mnemia:
I'm not claiming that it makes them behave much more immorally, or even that this particular data proves any of this.

Here's what you said:

Mnemia: And there are many more religious people who behave immorally by their own standard of behavior than there are non-religious people who behave immorally.

Then I asked for a source, to which you responded with the data you provided. All failure, all day.
 
2008-04-29 02:04:06 PM
Dr_Retriever:

From the moment of conception, it is a being two celled organism.

If you call that a being.
 
2008-04-29 02:05:13 PM
Why do Christians believe that we need God in order to be "Good" people?

Please explain the argument that without God, how can man know what is right and wrong, good or evil?
 
2008-04-29 02:05:32 PM
A belief in God is not necessary in order to view the fetus as a living human being.


It's highly debatable whether that argument holds.

You cannot view a ball of cells as a living human being unless you define humanness as something beyond the physical. Thus you've created a de facto mind body distinction. Which requires God.

(massive oversimplificaiton)

(not a defence of previous poster)
 
2008-04-29 02:06:53 PM
Tigger: It LOOKS like a baby. It has none of the neurological properties of a baby. Even though it looks like a baby it cannot think or feel in any meaningful emotional way.

Meaningful?

Has science been able to determine if the baby registers pain?
From the abortions I have seen wether a chemical one or slicing up the child with a scalpel that baby is squirming around as fast as it can. My guess is that is from the pain.
 
2008-04-29 02:07:01 PM
I believe life starts at conception. I believe it is wrong for any of us to decide who lives and who dies, whether that's at conception, any point in their lifespan or even after someone has committed a heinous crime. It's not always easy to reconcile that with some of the things people do but it always comes back to this for me, it is not my right to decide it is their time to die.

That being said, I think making abortion illegal again would be devastating. As long as it is legal it can be done safely and if a woman is determined to have an abortion she will get it even if it's illegal and has to be done in a manner that could kill her too. For that reason, I support abortion being legal.

I have volunteered in the past for a clinic that is there to provide counseling and a choice to women who are considering abortion. They don't shove the bible down her throat and tell her she's wrong, they give complete emotional support and talk to her about her options and also offer tangible support in the way of clothing, diapers, furniture and anything else that has been donated if that woman decides to keep the baby. I think that's the best thing any christian can do when faced with someone who is considering abortion and the other thing is to show them unconditional love even if they decide to abort.
 
2008-04-29 02:07:58 PM
JDAT: Xomber: Look, I don't agree with abortion as a choice(with exceptions), but I am no one to dictate what choices others should or should not have.


Who is dictating? Do I have the ability to dictate anything here?


You vote, right?
 
2008-04-29 02:08:38 PM
JDAT: No, I'm not. Do you think that if I am not one to punish for such acts I'm OK with them? Is that you reasoning here?

My reasoning is that there is no point in even making it illegal if you don't want to punish people for doing it. How else are you going to enforce the law? The purpose of the law is not just to signal official disapproval for something.

I see this as a terrible injustice to the child. Be it 1st term, late term, or partial birth abortion I believe it is murder. Should I be OK with it just because it is legal? Just because something is legal doesn't mean you are OK with it.

No. You don't have to be OK with it because it's legal. That's the position of many, many pro-choicers. That's why I am puzzled that you want to make it illegal. Do you think all your morals should be made into laws, or not? Turn your reasoning around here. Just because it's not illegal does not mean that society is saying it's okay. They are just choosing not to punish people for doing it. Some people are pro-choice because they don't believe there is anything wrong about abortion (like me), but others are pro-choice because although they personally think abortion is wrong, they understand that their view is an arbitrary opinion that other people may reasonably disagree with. Or they may just understand that enforcing an anti-abortion law is a practical problem, etc.
 
2008-04-29 02:09:13 PM
TheBlackFlag: Why do Christians believe that we need God in order to be "Good" people?

I've never believed that.
 
2008-04-29 02:10:50 PM
Xomber: JDAT: Xomber: Look, I don't agree with abortion as a choice(with exceptions), but I am no one to dictate what choices others should or should not have.


Who is dictating? Do I have the ability to dictate anything here?

You vote, right?


voting is a far cry from dictating.
 
2008-04-29 02:11:15 PM
mccallcl: Here you go again! Care to back up this claim, or do you want to skip straight to "I don't feel like doing it right now"?

I was kind of trolling in that one. But I was responding to another troll.
 
2008-04-29 02:11:41 PM
Inflatable Rhetoric: We don't disagree, then. The church is just another corporation, formed by a group of people trying to make a profit.

Actually, we do disagree. You state that a church should be held to a higher standard that you make up. This part about the Church being a for-profit corporation is something new you're bringing into it. You're wrong on that, but let's settle this point first: holding a church to a higher standard than any other institution based on the possibility of belief in a higher power is unjust.

This proposition is true for the following reasons (any one of them proves the point, it is not necessary for all of them to be true):

-not all religious institutions believe in a monotheistic, omnibenevolent higher power. See: satanists, wiccans, polytheists
-a belief in an omnibenevolent, monotheistic higher power is a fallacy, since no such power exists. To then hold an institution to a differing standard due to an imaginary entity is absurd.
-A belief in an omnibenevolent monotheistic higher power is an arbitrary criterion for holding an institution to a higher standard. This belief may or may not be reflected in the behavior of the institution, and even if mentioned in the mission statement of the institution, is not a contract.

You seem on the verge of accepting this simple point, so let's get that out in the open before changing the subject.
 
2008-04-29 02:12:26 PM
Has science been able to determine if the baby registers pain?
From the abortions I have seen wether a chemical one or slicing up the child with a scalpel that baby is squirming around as fast as it can. My guess is that is from the pain.


You're doing it again.

your guess vs actual science.

a mollusc contracts if you slice it with a knife.
 
2008-04-29 02:13:41 PM
Has science been able to determine if the baby registers pain?

Oh and to answer your question - it has no somatosensory cortex. so no.

but i'm sure you won't reverse your opinion based on actual facts and will continue to tell us all 'what you saw' and 'how it made you feel'
 
2008-04-29 02:17:09 PM
Tigger: .... Thus you've created a de facto mind body distinction. Which requires God.

I dont think it does. Does it?

Secular society at large has no problem with the concept of the mind being seperate from the brain. In fact neurology, psychiatry and psychology - all sciences - all believe in the 'Mind'.

The concept of the Soul may pre-suppose - or require - the concept of a "God", but I don't think the same applies to the mind.
 
2008-04-29 02:18:14 PM
JDAT: Xomber: JDAT: Xomber: Look, I don't agree with abortion as a choice(with exceptions), but I am no one to dictate what choices others should or should not have.


Who is dictating? Do I have the ability to dictate anything here?

You vote, right?

voting is a far cry from dictating.


Hum...no. It is not.

/we're deviating here...
 
2008-04-29 02:18:15 PM
Oh and third thing

Even if you're right - which you're not - but even if you were right, your argument would still not suggest we should ban abortions. It should just mean we require women to have them earlier.

So your premise is wrong, but even if your premise were right your conclusion would STILL be wrong.

It's metaFail
 
2008-04-29 02:18:39 PM
One of many reason why I'm a Recovering Catholic.
 
2008-04-29 02:19:09 PM
mccallcl: Inflatable Rhetoric: We don't disagree, then. The church is just another corporation, formed by a group of people trying to make a profit.

Actually, we do disagree.


Let's start at the beginning. Is a church different from other corporations? Let's settle that 1st, OK?
 
2008-04-29 02:20:38 PM
In fact neurology, psychiatry and psychology - all sciences - all believe in the 'Mind'.


Absolutely totally and completely not.

All of these areas of study assume that the mind is physically represented in the brain. For the purpose of analysis it can be discussed separately; however, that has nothing to do with it. The basis of a mind body distinction is that the mind is not completely and wholly physically represented in the brain. It's the basis of a four hundred year old mistake.
 
2008-04-29 02:21:49 PM
Tigger: Oh and third thing

Even if you're right - which you're not - but even if you were right, your argument would still not suggest we should ban abortions. It should just mean we require women to have them earlier.

So your premise is wrong, but even if your premise were right your conclusion would STILL be wrong.

It's metaFail


It's referred to as "Not even wrong".

As in: "You are so far off in every area that you are not even wrong. You dont qualify for wrong. You need to get at least SOME things CLOSE to being at least just "wrong" versus "WRONG!!" to even be considered wrong.
 
2008-04-29 02:23:05 PM
It's referred to as "Not even wrong".

As in: "You are so far off in every area that you are not even wrong. You dont qualify for wrong. You need to get at least SOME things CLOSE to being at least just "wrong" versus "WRONG!!" to even be considered wrong.


I like this a lot

I will try to integrate it into my theory of fractal wrongness.

A level of wrong so complex it cannot be analysed, because dissecting the wrong simply reveals equally complex new levels of wrongness
 
2008-04-29 02:25:48 PM
TheBlackFlag:

It's referred to as "Not even wrong".


You gotta love Feynman.
 
2008-04-29 02:26:07 PM
Mnemia:

If I believe it to be an injustice to an innocent party then why shouldn't I speak out against it. Morality and law are not exclusive of each other but they are not the same either. By your reasoning we should have never abolished slavery, just understand that people should have the choice to have slaves or not.

This example will be absurd to you for this reason. You see a grown adult as a person, a human being worthy of all the rights that come with that status. When it comes to a child in the womb or perhaps even one partially out of the womb you do not see them as a human. This is where we differ. What I see as a decision to kill you see as a choice to ....terminate of a fetus that is nothing else.
 
2008-04-29 02:26:26 PM
Tigger: Has science been able to determine if the baby registers pain?

Oh and to answer your question - it has no somatosensory cortex. so no.

but i'm sure you won't reverse your opinion based on actual facts and will continue to tell us all 'what you saw' and 'how it made you feel'


Plus, your shiat's all retarded and you talk like a fag
 
2008-04-29 02:26:49 PM
Inflatable Rhetoric: Let's start at the beginning.

The beginning of this discussion is clear for any and all to see, and whether or not the church is a for-profit corporation is not where I chose to disagree with you.

Inflatable Rhetoric: People have always mistreated other people, but I think religion must be held to a higher standard. They claim some connection to god, after all. If they're not, then religion is just another business. And tax free.

Obviously, you have to prove the first position in order to assert the second, demonstrated by your use of the phrase in bold. Now, back on track! Let's hear your refutation of my position!
 
2008-04-29 02:27:56 PM
Tigger: Oh and to answer your question - it has no somatosensory cortex. so no.

When does it develop one?
 
2008-04-29 02:28:17 PM
Peter_B_Risen: Can a Catholic volunteer for the armed forces during wartime?

You are basically volunteering with the potential of taking another persons life.

I don't know were they stand on that. If the whole abortion stance is about the fact that it is taking a life, then it would seem that Catholics should not be able to volunteer during times of war. Volunteering, unlike being drafted, is a personal choice.


It is permitted , but it also requires that the individual do so with full power of reflection and with an understanding of the implications of his or her actions. This same clause also allows one to become an objector based on one's conscience.
 
2008-04-29 02:28:22 PM
Tigger: In fact neurology, psychiatry and psychology - all sciences - all believe in the 'Mind'.


Absolutely totally and completely not.

All of these areas of study assume that the mind is physically represented in the brain. For the purpose of analysis it can be discussed separately; however, that has nothing to do with it. The basis of a mind body distinction is that the mind is not completely and wholly physically represented in the brain. It's the basis of a four hundred year old mistake.



OK, how about this...

The "Brain" is a biological organ, and the "Mind" is what it does.

Does that work?
 
2008-04-29 02:28:37 PM
WILLOBIE: This pope threw the 2000 election to George Bush by damning Kerry over the pro-choice issue, while he was still God's Rottweiler.

Can you seriously name one... ONE... Kerry supporter who switched to Bush because of any comment by Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger? You're claiming a foreign cardinal threw America's election?! Imagine his power now as Pope, then! Surely there would be no non-Catholics in office by now, such is his awesome hypno-speak.
 
2008-04-29 02:29:22 PM
just_another_farker: I have volunteered in the past for a clinic that is there to provide counseling and a choice to women who are considering abortion. They don't shove the bible down her throat and tell her she's wrong, they give complete emotional support and talk to her about her options and also offer tangible support in the way of clothing, diapers, furniture and anything else that has been donated if that woman decides to keep the baby. I think that's the best thing any christian can do when faced with someone who is considering abortion and the other thing is to show them unconditional love even if they decide to abort.

Do they also lie to women about abortion like the crisis pregnancy centers near me do? They were caught giving out misinformation about abortion and contraception repeatedly (the ones here also oppose contraceptives).
 
2008-04-29 02:30:22 PM
mccallcl: Inflatable Rhetoric: Let's start at the beginning.

The beginning of this discussion is clear for any and all to see, and whether or not the church is a for-profit corporation is not where I chose to disagree with you.

Inflatable Rhetoric: People have always mistreated other people, but I think religion must be held to a higher standard. They claim some connection to god, after all. If they're not, then religion is just another business. And tax free.

Obviously, you have to prove the first position in order to assert the second, demonstrated by your use of the phrase in bold. Now, back on track! Let's hear your refutation of my position!


What is your position? Do you think the church is just another corporation? It's a Yes or No question.
 
2008-04-29 02:33:42 PM
Inflatable Rhetoric: What is your position? Do you think the church is just another corporation? It's a Yes or No question.

I don't have to answer your question unless your first point is proven, which you have not done yet. No dessert unless you eat your meat, little man.
 
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