Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(NYPost)   Getting greedy after that swap for Manhattan, the state of New York now wants to tax cigarettes sold on Indian reservations   (nypost.com ) divider line
    More: Unlikely  
•       •       •

3324 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Apr 2008 at 5:22 AM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



104 Comments   (+0 »)

Archived thread


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Newest | Show all

 
2008-04-27 08:02:30 PM  
Critics of the state's non-enforcement stance say sales via Indian reservations - which now represent one of every three cigarettes sold in the state - stand to soar as folks look to save money.

Yeah, rich folks like The Donald - who almost always has a fag hanging out of his jowls. Keep on taxing those rich bastards, Albany.
 
2008-04-27 08:17:36 PM  
"It is driving hundreds of thousands of non-Indian customers away from licensed convenience stores, decimating their businesses," James Calvin, president of the New York Association of Convenience Stores, wrote in a recent letter to Paterson.



Translation: 'hey! how come those injuns get to make money! we want to sell tobacco without taxes as well!'

And right now the state government is thinking "crap. now we gotta start enforcing the law equally or else everyone is gonna stop collecting sales taxes."
 
2008-04-27 10:40:09 PM  
New for NY is they are living on borrowed time.
They never actually purchaced the lot.
It's leased.
/read the fine wampum, baby.
 
2008-04-27 10:57:10 PM  
Isn't that sort of like New York trying to tax cigarettes sold in Delaware; or perhaps more accurately, sold in Mexico?
 
2008-04-27 11:08:29 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Isn't that sort of like New York trying to tax cigarettes sold in Delaware; or perhaps more accurately, sold in Mexico?

They need the tax money. here in pennsylvannia, that's why we'll never see the end of the liquor control board - the state government has a monopoly on the sale and distribution of liquor. That means that anyone wanting to sell their product here has to offer the government very favorable terms....or they don't get to play here. And they spend that money on all sorts of projects. Some good, most not. But it's a steady and predictable stream of cash that they can control. Never mind the effects on the free market - it's their game and they're not going to give it up.

New York is in the same boat. They want to control distribution. Tobacco taxes are a 'feel good' tax that they can always raise and never get a backlash from the public. However, the reservation sales are a HUGE problem for them.....it's seriously disrupting their control on sales. And that will have to change. I wouldn't expect the state government to back down on this issue either. They want their cut of the action and like any good extortion racket, they'll play rough to get it.
 
2008-04-27 11:19:43 PM  
I think the worst part about all of this is how badly state governments abuse the anti-smoking crowd. The state depends heavily on tobacco taxes. They rake in a metric assload of money off controlling the sale and distribution of tobacco in all it's forms. And they told the smoking nazis that the state was anti-smoking as well....all while jacking tobacco taxiation thru the roof.

But do you see an end to smoking? Do you see tobacco companies going out of business? Because I don't.

The anti-smoking lobby has been used. used like a cheap hooker on prom night. And the worst part? they line up to get abused again and again and again. I think they're starting to LIKE the abuse.

Sad and pathetic.
 
2008-04-27 11:26:57 PM  
My point was, don't the Indian reservation enjoy a *Federal* grant of sovereignty? Does NY even have the jurisdiction to tax goods sold on that land?
 
2008-04-27 11:27:33 PM  
*reservations
 
2008-04-27 11:32:50 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: My point was, don't the Indian reservation enjoy a *Federal* grant of sovereignty? Does NY even have the jurisdiction to tax goods sold on that land?

With all that tax money on the line I doubt the state government is going to care about jurisdiction. They're going to fight for that cash. They have no choice.
 
2008-04-27 11:56:23 PM  
Weaver95:
With all that tax money on the line I doubt the state government is going to care about jurisdiction. They're going to fight for that cash. They have no choice.


And the state will most likely lose that fight (unless the Feds change the rules again).
 
2008-04-28 01:01:45 AM  
Reactron: Critics of the state's non-enforcement stance say sales via Indian reservations - which now represent one of every three cigarettes sold in the state - stand to soar as folks look to save money.

Yeah, rich folks like The Donald - who almost always has a fag hanging out of his jowls. Keep on taxing those rich bastards, Albany.


I want to see a pube tax enacted on media and real estate moguls. Sure, milking them from more money would be nice, but I'd much rather like to see IRS agents visit Donald Trump every month with an electric trimmer, telling him to drop trou so his balls get shaved in the name of the government. Because no WAY can you be a blowhard if you're legally obligated to let some dude shave your balls every month.
 
2008-04-28 01:05:41 AM  
Weaver95: With all that tax money on the line I doubt the state government is going to care about jurisdiction. They're going to fight for that cash. They have no choice.

Witness their animal longings for sales tax on interstate commerce (Amazon.con, etc.). Never underestimate the desire of NYC politicians to impose taxes beyond their jurisdiction. I'm quite certain that if Bloomy could have a third term, he'd go for a national income tax for our glorious little burg, based on the fact that everyone in the nation benefits by the existence of Wall Street. Really, we just want to wet our beaks.
 
2008-04-28 01:09:37 AM  
Bloody William: Because no WAY can you be a blowhard if you're legally obligated to let some dude shave your balls every month.

The bastard would probably enjoy it. Actually, he'd have it filmed and syndicated. He'd make a fortune.
 
2008-04-28 02:01:35 AM  
Reactron: Never underestimate the desire of NYC politicians to impose taxes beyond their jurisdiction.

yeah, our legislature tries doing that all the time. Hell, last year Fast Eddie tried raising taxes on the entire state, then funneling all the cash directly to philly. When the rest of the state asked why philly needed all the money, Ed's response was 'STFU - i'm in charge'. Thus proceeded the infamous government shutdown....which ended with Rendell backing down and the legislature winning the pissing contest.
 
2008-04-28 03:30:53 AM  
Indian Reservations do have Federal grant of sovereignty and shouldn't pay taxes to the state or federal government.

And another thing, if the state is looking so hard for taxable income, why don't they try to tax casinos instead of cigarettes?
 
2008-04-28 05:32:39 AM  
Okay, at least here in Florida, the reservations are considered independent authorities outside of the state, essentially being their own nation within the United States, while the people living there enjoy the rights of US citizens. This can be a big asset and a curse at the same time. Their education and health care suffer, but they can never be taxed by Florida or the federal government. As far as I knew, all this resulted from treaties signed by the United States with the tribes after the genocide of their people and Florida can't override that.

I'm assuming, the reservations in New York are under the same kind of set up, meaning one federal law suit and that tax disappears and New York is slapped back into it rightful place and not minding the reservations business.

Am I wrong on that?
 
2008-04-28 05:34:32 AM  
mr_shhh: And another thing, if the state is looking so hard for taxable income, why don't they try to tax casinos instead of cigarettes?

People understand it when you pick out certain businesses and tax them. Smokers on the other hand aren't people, they are just walking piles of cancer emissions.
 
2008-04-28 05:38:59 AM  
Chief suggest tribe pay taxes with used blankets...
 
2008-04-28 05:56:43 AM  
Tobacco is a sacred plant to the native americans, taxing it for them would be like taxing communion wine for the catholics.
 
2008-04-28 06:01:19 AM  
I really hope the government tries it...the last time they did the Indians shut down the Thruway and stacked burning tires across it until they relented.

Good times, good times...
 
2008-04-28 06:01:58 AM  
Each tribe's relationship with the government is based on the own treaty, there is not a blanket set of sovereignty that govern all tribes. And few of them (with exceptions including the Seminoles) have true sovereignty.
 
2008-04-28 06:14:45 AM  
mr_shhh: And another thing, if the state is looking so hard for taxable income, why don't they try to tax casinos instead of cigarettes?

One thing at a time. They'll get to it.
 
2008-04-28 06:20:26 AM  
Nothing like the smell of burning tires on the Thruway.

A few years ago the 'leaders' of our state decided they wanted to tax smokes on Indian reservations. The Indians said "fine, you know how the Thruway runs through our reservations? Yeah, we want a piece of that action too." The state said no. The Indians shut down that portion of the Thruway with barricades and burning tires.

The state decided to shut the fark up for a couple of years.

What I want to know is, what's the state gonna tax when we all stop smoking? (I quit 10 months ago this Wednesday. Partly just to screw the state out of the tax money.)
 
2008-04-28 06:38:08 AM  
They've been whining about this for years.

They raised taxes under the banner of "let's encourage people to quit" so a lot of people went the out of their way to go to the Reservations. Problem is, if everyone DID quit smoking, they wouldn't be getting that revenue anyway. What a win for the state!
 
2008-04-28 06:38:34 AM  
I hope somebody loses their scalp over this.
 
2008-04-28 06:44:59 AM  
Weaver95: The anti-smoking lobby has been used. used like a cheap hooker on prom night.

Good. I hope they take it in the ass and make them call um daddy. When your a tool expect to be treated like one.
 
2008-04-28 06:59:09 AM  
You can have the beads back, I want that land!
 
2008-04-28 07:06:04 AM  
Peace pipes will still be tax free though?
 
2008-04-28 07:30:23 AM  
Z1P2: Chief suggest tribe pay taxes with used blankets...

Are they still available with smallpox ? cuz a fair trade is a fair trade.... lets keep it ABOVE the table !!!

hehehe

// Support the tribes
/// Support fair trade
//// Support lots of slashies !!!
 
2008-04-28 07:34:42 AM  
mr_shhh: Indian Reservations do have Federal grant of sovereignty and shouldn't pay taxes to the state or federal government.

And another thing, if the state is looking so hard for taxable income, why don't they try to tax casinos instead of cigarettes?


They've been assaulting the casinos too, as retribution I think for the reservations not just rolling over and letting the state have their way with them on the tobacco issue. They've been denied liquor licenses, they've had injunctions, lots of people have had their casino related jobs threatened because of the actions of the state. Gasoline sales have also become a point of contention.

This isn't a new story - NY has actually been going after the reservations on both cigarettes and alcohol for some time now, and they're playing very dirty. Their behavior could easily be likened to that of the mob. (if it existed, that is)

/won't be surprised when the Oneida's and Onondaga's rise up and go batshiat on the state of NY.
 
2008-04-28 07:45:13 AM  
Simple solution...

They don't want to pay tax, they should only be allowed to sell to those in their tribe. If they want to sell to the general public, they need to contribute to the good of the general public by way of paying taxes.
 
2008-04-28 08:04:37 AM  
Slartibartfaster:

// Support the tribes
/// Support fair trade
//// Support lots of slashies !!!


/SUPPORTS THE NATIONS
 
2008-04-28 08:07:32 AM  
Anyone remember when New York tried making Canada collect sales tax on New Yorkers buying stuff there? God this is an awful awful state.
 
2008-04-28 08:21:25 AM  
Those New York reservations report online cigarette sales to Minnesota residents to the State of Minnesota, who promptly send-out a bill for the tax. They tax the pennies in your loafers in this state.
 
2008-04-28 08:23:47 AM  
Gecko Gingrich: My point was, don't the Indian reservation enjoy a *Federal* grant of sovereignty? Does NY even have the jurisdiction to tax goods sold on that land?

The sovereignty wasn't granted by the federal government, it was recognized.
 
2008-04-28 08:24:33 AM  
"Each tribe's relationship with the government is based on the own treaty, there is not a blanket set of sovereignty that govern all tribes. And few of them (with exceptions including the Seminoles) have true sovereignty."

Nope.

None of them have true sovereignty - all tribes are domestic dependent nations. Each tribes relationship with the government may have SOMETHING to do with certain treaties, but in fact there IS a blanket set of sovereignty rules that covers all federally recognized indian tribes.

In Washington V Colville, (I think, I havent focused on this area of Native law in a while) they determined that cigs COULD be taxed to non-tribal members on Indian land because not taxing them was simply giving an extra windfall to the reservations, since the Indians weren't really changing or manufacturing the product, they were just "importing" it and selling it unchanged. It might be different if they grew the tobacco on the rez and then rolled them and sold it, but just importing Marlboros for the local non-natives to come onto the reservation to buy cheaper is not promoting self-determination by helping natives succeed in their own endeavors, its just letting them make extra money by exploiting a loophole. At least that's what the court said. I don't like it, but that is what the Court has handed down.

They aren't taxing the tobacco plant, they are taxing the final product, so the person who argued this is like taxing sacrifical wine or whatever is mistaken. Because cigarettes are not sacred, the tobacco which is offered to the creator is sacred. And that is not being taxed, just the rolled cigs, which are not used in ceremonies or prayer.

I wish they'd leave the tribes alone, but it seems the government is determined to fix their budget shortfall somehow, and they look to the easier targets first. It's just bad because they chose to do it now when the economy is in a crisis, because it looks worse, like they ARE just trying to ding the tribe for revenue to handle their own budgeting screwups and to cover for their OWN errors in overtaxing cigs, causing customers to go elsewhere for them. Now people are just going to go to another state or start buying them online instead.
 
2008-04-28 08:27:13 AM  
id10ts: What I want to know is, what's the state gonna tax when we all stop smoking?

Fast food.

I'm hoping for massive taxes on alcohol, though, but I don't think this government is stupid enough to try it again. The anti-smoking crusaders can switch over to prohibition mode without even breaking stride, as they'll be making most of the same arguments. Probably to better effect, as a person who drinks heavily doesn't have a fractionally increased risk of beating his wife 30 years after he leaves the bar. It's more visible, and the damages are easier to bottle feed to the sheeplike followers.

Of course, that means they'll have to turn on their own. A small segment of the anti-smoking crusade- those liver-killing heathens who banned smoking in bars so they could go drink. They'll have to be cut off. Though the modern prohibition groups will gladly take their place.

150% taxes on every case of Schlitz might just be enough to start another rebellion. Thousands of people overturning beer trucks and emptying Natty Light into the streets!


/I can dream
 
2008-04-28 08:32:27 AM  
Gecko Gingrich: Isn't that sort of like New York trying to tax cigarettes sold in Delaware; or perhaps more accurately, sold in Mexico?

Weaver95: New York is in the same boat. They want to control distribution. Tobacco taxes are a 'feel good' tax that they can always raise and never get a backlash from the public. However, the reservation sales are a HUGE problem for them.....it's seriously disrupting their control on sales. And that will have to change. I wouldn't expect the state government to back down on this issue either. They want their cut of the action and like any good extortion racket, they'll play rough to get it.

They'll just have to wrangle the US Government to do it.

By treaty, Native American governments are *generally* only answerable to the feds. However, if any tribes signed any documents with the states wherein they reside, they'll have additional difficulties.

That's the way it is up here in Maine, but the latest I heard was that the Penobscot tribe is telling the state to go fark itself.
 
2008-04-28 08:34:35 AM  
cache.daylife.com


Sure, turned out well in Rhode Island anyway...
 
2008-04-28 08:45:36 AM  
If I remember right the deal between Maine and the tribes here was signed in the 70's that said the tribes had to follow all state laws and taxes. The big problem now is that a tribe that was not around(ie legal view as a tribe by the feds) that is now is doing things like not charging state sales taxes and such and the state is saying you have to follow this deal(which the tribe didn't sign) and the tribe and I think the Feds are saying no they don't have to follow it.
 
2008-04-28 08:53:24 AM  
We gotta get some money to make up for tax-cuts for the rich. Going after low-income smokers is a good start.


/Besides, we can fark some injuns, too.
 
2008-04-28 08:54:11 AM  
yeah that will solve the tax problems of NY... Hey assholes, try cutting spending and rooting out corruption instead of getting a pittance of the Indians.
 
2008-04-28 08:58:55 AM  
New York must be suffering big buyer remorse.

/native Martian chief has no comment
 
2008-04-28 09:00:59 AM  
LittleGreenMen:
/won't be surprised when the Oneida's and Onondaga's rise up and go batshiat on the state of NY.


It wouldn't be the first time. The St. Regis Mohawks had a few, erm, disagreements with the State a few years ago.
 
2008-04-28 09:06:08 AM  
I wonder what the total cost in health care smoking causes. NY state is recieving 1.6B just from their taxes. Add in all the other state and federal taxes and that should be a very large sum. It would not surprise me if smokers actually pay in more than they cost (at least on the health end, are there other 2ndary costs?)
 
2008-04-28 09:11:17 AM  

Tax away but if the price gets too high there are other "organizations" that will step in with cheap smokes and you won't tax them.

i236.photobucket.com

 
2008-04-28 09:15:01 AM  
Well, the rez is technically a soveirgn within the country, governed by it's own laws. So can't they simply levy a tariff on cigs "imported" from the rez?
 
2008-04-28 09:26:41 AM  
Romeo_Santana: Simple solution...

They don't want to pay tax, they should only be allowed to sell to those in their tribe. If they want to sell to the general public, they need to contribute to the good of the general public by way of paying taxes.


What public? They're their own nation.
 
2008-04-28 09:30:24 AM  
Good luck with that NY.
 
2008-04-28 09:31:23 AM  
Is fire water taxed at these stores
 
Displayed 50 of 104 comments


Oldest | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | » | Newest | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report