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(Some Guy)   Man hit by lightning, finds God. Starts fundamentalist church   (mytown.co.nz) divider line 156
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79 clicks; posted to Main » on 16 Nov 2002 at 3:11 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-11-16 09:41:02 PM
Sannyasin, very impressive. However, all you have done is illustrate the lengths that the religious will go to in order to rationalize their mythology.

Objectively speaking, all of that philosophy is based upon very questionable premises, and without first accepting the mythology as truth, the entire issue is similar to a discussion about how magic works in a role playing game. It may have internal logic, philosophy, and a system, but unlike with religion, no-one assumes that it has meaning outside of the game.

In order for any of the theological (holy-book based, etc.) retorts to the criticisms of religious logic to hold water, you first have to accept the premise that the religion in question is basically true. That kind of circular logic is not recognized by non-believers, obviously, and merely exists to give confidence to the believers. It's preaching to the choir.

To reiterate, the argument that "all criticisms of X have been dealt with before so it is therefore sound" is irrelevant, because X is based on circular logic and faulty premises to begin with, and the retorts are unconvincing because they are confined the mythos, which must first be believed in order for the retorts to have meaning.

I don't need a "mind-shattering" criticism of Christianity other than to point out the fact that it is simply a collection of myths and fantasies that have been ingrained into our society over the last couple thousand of years for various social and political reasons. Traditions and myths don't die easily, but that has nothing to do with truth.
 
2002-11-16 09:41:14 PM
WizardX, I am not clinging to my own ignorance. I am 50 years old and have seen enough and read enough and heard enough to make my own decision, as I must. If I am clinging to anything, it is 'all I can understand'. If I am ignorant, that is your judgement. And judge, you will, as most religious loved ones do. Judge on.
 
2002-11-16 09:47:26 PM
Ignorance is simply not knowing something. To claim you can not do something which you do not even understand is, by definition, acting according to ignorance. To not attempt to correct known ignorance is to cling to it.

Therefore, to call you "ignorant" is not judgemental at all, since you yourself admitted to it simply using different words.
 
2002-11-16 09:57:28 PM
Well, you're farther than me, SquirrelWithLargeNuts; I'm still working on how kangaroos got to Australia and nowhere else after the world flood. Or how many other myths happened.
 
2002-11-16 09:59:28 PM
WizardX: "...to an athiest who refuses to see the slightest bit of magic and wonder in the cosmos."

Religion and myth are not necessary in order to have a sense of awe and wonder about the universe. Through science, we can know and learn about spectacular and wondrous things, and the things that we do not yet understand, we can strive to comprehend through our investigations and efforts. Carl Sagan explains this point of view very well in "A Demon Haunted World."

The knowledge we attain through science is actually reliable and useful, compared to the fantasies that we are merely told to believe by religion. We can build on our scientific knowledge to achieve wondrous technologies and investigate the universe even further, unlike with religion, which is only useful for indoctrination, subjugation, the suppression of free thought, and the repression of the unbiased investigation of the universe.

The religious Luddites who reject science in favor of religion are the ones who have confined themselves to a cave, the cave of blind faith and fruitless introspection.
 
2002-11-16 10:00:19 PM
TheDanish:

It's all in Bullshiat 5:16-28.
 
2002-11-16 10:03:36 PM
WizardX, whoever you are, thanks for responding so quickly. You seem to believe in God. I was raised in a religious family. Mom and Dad are extremely so. I have seen no evidence that a 'god' exists. By looking around me. Simply that. And I love life and children and flowers and nature. But (and this is extremely important) at my age....I have seen too many things that indicate no divine intervention. WAY TOO MANY THINGS. More than could be explained. No myterious ways of god, no weird blessings, no miracles on one hand that are uninexplicably not duplicated in other cases, many times over. YOU DOCUMENT some miracle that is not a sad (because it encourages belief) event. Get real. Can you be brave or courageous or real enough to believe in yourself? Or to recognize your own self? And what is around you?
 
2002-11-16 10:04:20 PM
We did a big study of this subject in University.The official name for it is called Quantum personality disorder.Usually surviving a near death event or a nervous breakdown can sometimes transform someone into a completly different individual,ask anyone who became "born again" and they will tell you it happened at the end of their rope or having a sudden change of heart seconds before a suicide.Im not knocking religion,I'm a Nieztchien at heart
 
2002-11-16 10:06:20 PM
/angry ex-Christian rant

i didnt relize you were an Ex-Christian, Wizard..
i just thought you were always uhhh.....strange... lol

*throws a paperclip over the cube wall at the weirdo*
*runs and hides*
 
2002-11-16 10:13:11 PM
(laughs) Wow... We're sure getting a lot of differing interpretations of my religious beliefs, despite my not having said anything about them besides being an ex-Christian.
Oh yes, I did also say "Embrace your inner divinity," but that would certainly rule out any belief and recognition of myself, wouldn't it? ... I'll leave it as an exercise for the reader to see how many possible interpretations can be pulled from that statement.

All people are ignorant. Some attempt to remedy the situation.
 
2002-11-16 10:20:07 PM
(throws the paperclip back at Silkfever)
 
2002-11-16 10:22:02 PM
* Throws soda cap at Wizard *
 
2002-11-16 10:24:20 PM
A man in West Allis, Wisconsin recently saw the image of Jebus in his girlfriends vagina. There were thousands of people on line to see this miracle of the Lord.
 
2002-11-16 10:29:32 PM
wizardx....I admit not reading all your posts. And misunderstanding one. Sorry. Your last statement about 'all people are ignorant, some attempt to remedy the situation' brings up something I am interested in. How old are you? I am 50. I have tried and tried to believe, in something, anything. To Understand. If I got hit by a truck crossing the centerline tomorrow, what would happen to me? Dust to dust, I believe. So what does understanding, if you can achieve it (before you die)(whatever it means) lead to? If you are still under the misconception that you can understand the world or that 'understanding' leads to something, you are (sad to say) under a misconception. The ONLY thing that matters is how you treat others in your life and your love for them and theirs for you. That's it.
 
2002-11-16 10:32:49 PM
OSIRIS - one of the greatest keys to the word "faith" is to understand that it does not require "logic" or "facts" to be believed. The article (in a Socratic Method kinda way) doesn't necessarily say anything that is wrong .... nor anything entirely true. Assumptions can be made by one's own initiative as to whether or not your (or whoever wrote the article) points of "logic" requires them to re-examine their faith. I've struggled plenty w/ my faith and changed my mind on thousands of occassions about whether or not i believe in traditional Catholic law.... to be quite honest i can only call myself "Christian"... and that's about it. I'll tell ya what though.... i'd love to see some fundamentalists read this article.... now THEY would go apes**t. You would quite simply have no point at all... i once asked a baptist how they know God exists (i studied theology) --> had a great answer

"The bible says that God exists... and the bible is the word of God... so God exists." i almost puked.

My only one true reason for a non-believer to consider believing is the theory surrounding "the first movement"

So long as everyone believes in the concept of time... which invariably passes w/ each second... a power that transcends time and space must have started the clock... and created the space.
 
2002-11-16 10:33:27 PM
*throws Wizard at Silk*
 
2002-11-16 10:39:48 PM
Neon32:

So what created God?
 
2002-11-16 10:40:55 PM
If you are still under the misconception that you can understand the world or that 'understanding' leads to something, you are (sad to say) under a misconception.

The quest for enlightenment is an end within itself. Human potential is greatly underestimated by most. I see no reason to categorically say that reaching it is impossible, and those few who have (reportedly) done so tend to be well-remembered by history. I believe in bettering my self, and always seeking to grow as a human being. What I will grow into, I won't know until I get there.
 
2002-11-16 10:47:21 PM
Neon32, that's the Deist point of view, isn't it.

I have read that time is a function of the universe's existence (as Einstein's fourth dimension), and therefore before the Big Bang there was neither matter nor time. So, at the very least it is debatable whether time existed before the universe began, and current cosmology seems to indicate that it may not have.

The questions one usually ask a Deist are:

1. Who then created the Creator? (Ad infinitum)

2. If you say the Creator "always existed" and was not created by another previous Creator, then why fill in the "gap in believability" that you feel with a creatorless universe with another "gap in believability" that is the creatorless timeless Creator? It seems that you haven't gained anything.
 
2002-11-16 10:49:55 PM
Neon32- do you think that people must consider your theory of time to believe? Are you a 'time' minister? Do you believe little girls and boys should consider your theory and believe in God? Are you nuts? You are no better than the Indians and superstionists and astrology. You can't look around you and see what EXISTS? Not some theory or concept...it happens. Everday. Life and the end of it. Or what normally ends until we alter that. It is coming but it is not of the Gods. It is of the 'human'. We are not influenced by the stars or god or fate or anything else. We are just reacting and living until we die. Hopefully supporting others (our loved ones) and our neighbors. I believe in love and I believe in myself.
 
2002-11-16 10:52:14 PM
I agree with you, Jjj1952. I think that's a good way to live one's life.
 
2002-11-16 10:58:08 PM
You can't look around you and see what EXISTS? Not some theory or concept...it happens. Everday. Life and the end of it. ... We are not influenced by the stars or god or fate or anything else. We are just reacting and living until we die.

Taking this as a given, how do you believe in love?
 
2002-11-16 11:07:55 PM
Anyone evr see the old movie "SGT. YORK" ? That's where Gary Cooper gets hi with lightning and finds RELIGION.
I wonder if this cat is a copycat...
 
2002-11-16 11:11:52 PM
WizardX- thanks for the reply. This is fun. How do I believe in love? I believe in caring for someone despite what they believe, mostly. If they (an adult) believes in making love to my 8 year old daughter, then I believe they should be in prison for the rest of their life. But if they believe in something (other than morally degenarate things) that basically I don't believe, it doesn't matter, because I don't believe we know what is really right. I believe we want to think we know what is going on, but we can't. We are human and we want to believe there is more to life than this....but there isn't. Just be responsible, have fun, love one another (within reason, see above) and hope you live for awhile.
 
2002-11-16 11:12:03 PM
Taking this as a given, how do you believe in love?

Beat them down, Wizard!!!!

Your my hero...
i wanna be just like you when i grow up.
 
2002-11-16 11:14:30 PM
thanks for the reply. This is fun. How do I believe in love? I believe in caring for someone despite what they believe, mostly. If they (an adult) believes in making love to my 8 year old daughter, then I believe they should be in prison for the rest of their life. But if they believe in something (other than morally degenarate things) that basically I don't believe, it doesn't matter, because I don't believe we know what is really right. I believe we want to think we know what is going on, but we can't. We are human and we want to believe there is more to life than this....but there isn't. Just be responsible, have fun, love one another (within reason, see above) and hope you live for awhile.

and I beleive than in YOUR head that was relivant in answering Wizard's Question... but in real life... nope.
 
2002-11-16 11:15:49 PM
i guess it helps if i close my tag...
oh well.
you all get the point.
=)
 
2002-11-16 11:22:57 PM
You miss my fundamental point, JJJ. You've spent much time in this forum basically criticizing anyone who believes in any sort of higher power at all... And then you turn around and say you believe - BELIEVE - in love. How is one unprovable, intangible force better any other?
 
2002-11-16 11:23:36 PM
PS - Silk - TAG you're it.
 
2002-11-16 11:25:43 PM
PS - Silk - TAG you're it.

nuh-uh as soon as i get off this call, im outta here!!!
 
2002-11-16 11:30:21 PM
For what it's worth, Silkfever, you didn't answer my post with any real points or argument. You said 'you all get the point'.... what point is there except there is nothing to life except the love you give and the love you get. I am probably dumb but I don't understand Silkfever's point. Maybe he/she can explain it to me. I guess it helps if I close my tag , oh, well, you all get the point =)
 
2002-11-16 11:33:54 PM
Most religious zealots start out simply as people devastated by tragic circumstances and left groping for answers. And that unfortunate point of departure perpetually clouds their judgement. You're a zealot if you can't see the blinding irony inherent in using force to convince other people that your belief about the unknowable is more accurate than their belief in the unknowable. I'm pretty sure the Donner party wasn't even that misguided.

Some religious zealots act like the code of morality they claim to be upholding can be temporarily shelved when it gets in the way of their more immediate goals. Like these supposed "pro-lifers" who kill doctors. Hey, we may not all agree on when life begins, but we sure as shiat do agree on when it ends. It's not called the "Ten Commandments And One Hundred Footnotes."
 
2002-11-16 11:38:26 PM
I don't understand how you can say a person's love for another, whom you can touch, taste, hear, see, smell, talk to, argue with, love in real time, is comparable to or comparable with love for a 'being' that you can't see, touch, taste, hear, see or touch, taste, hear or see, or touch, hear, taste, see or hear...or whatever...is comparable to someone you can touch, hear, touch, taste, hear, see ..................duh
 
2002-11-16 11:39:50 PM
Well, unless you believe in reincarnation, but we won't bring that into this.

Whoops.
 
2002-11-16 11:47:14 PM
Hmmm... Ok, I'm now trying to figure out if JJJ is intentionally *playing* dumb, or not. I doubt anyone else here managed to so misinterpret my previous queries.

So then, I shall take one more shot at this, being as I am possessed of near-infinite patience. (or, more accurately, am stuck at work and really bored) Although I really hate being reduced to such pedanticism.

For the sake of argument, let's say I do not believe in Love, and that your claims to having it are just the result of a bio-chemical delusion. Can you prove that you do, indeed, Love?
 
2002-11-16 11:49:27 PM
"11-16-02 04:39:37 PM B0rg9
Kurmudgeon: Unless you just turn to dirt after you die. In that case if you're a prick you just made a mess of things while you were here.'
In that case, I guess you just reap what you've sown then.
Turning to dirt should be handy at that point.
 
2002-11-16 11:50:17 PM
I think you fellers should listen to one who has seen it all and done it all. Like Me. I know it all. I believe that. Because I know me. And my parting words of wisdom are this:
 
2002-11-16 11:52:53 PM
I hate to sound too much like a simpleton, but you guys are trying too hard to explain thay God does not exist.
 
2002-11-16 11:54:40 PM
WizardX, are you really at work? And do you not really believe in love? How old are you? Been married? Important questions for me.....
 
2002-11-17 12:05:47 AM
My former wife (1st) proclaimed love for me, as I did her, after our divorce (let alone before). My current wife proclaims great love for me, as I do for her. (We really do). I love my parents, I love my son, I love my parents, they love me. What are you talking about? I believe in these loves more than some theoretical love...big time.
 
2002-11-17 12:08:11 AM
Ok... A blithering idiot could not have failed to understand what I was asking, yet you have intentionally dodged or misinterpreted the question three times now. That you would allow us to believe you do not know the meaning of "for the sake of argument," just so you can weasel out of answering my question is simply laughable.
I suggest you examine the hypocracy in your life - you seem to enjoy ripping up other people's beliefs, but shrink away from a challenge to your own. And yes, I use the word belief. NO ONE goes through life in a 100% empirical manner. It is against human nature. Whether you want to profess belief in one intangible force called "love" or another called "God," it's still stemming from the same thing. Everyone has something that they Believe in, whether they admit it or not.

Ergo, given the choice of hypocritically proclaiming there are no unprovable forces at all, or allowing for the *possibility* of any of them I choose the latter.

Besides, I may not exist at all. I could just be a advanced chatbot drifting the seas of the Internet. And there's no way for you to know. :-)
 
2002-11-17 12:11:19 AM
And incidentally I am at work, but am now going home. Peace & blessings out. :-)
 
2002-11-17 12:14:58 AM
Kurmudgeon: All I'm saying is that you need to consider the relevance of the fact that there may be no afterlife. Unless faith supercedes this point.
 
2002-11-17 12:31:53 AM
This is weird. I guess we are talking like air and water. I believe in what is happening in front of me. That is all. What people are doing. That may or may not include love between people. I believe in hate, also, big time. You, I guess, choose to believe in what is not in front of you. I believe all the bad and the good in my eyesight. That includes my 1st wife's good and bad descriptions of me and my current wife's bad and good comments about me. I also believe they love me. And I love them. What are you getting at? You believe in something else? You believe in something you can't touch or see or feel? I can see and touch and feel Denise and Deanna and my sons and step children. If you mean the feeling, itself...can I touch it? Of course not. But it is a feeling about someone who exists. That is the only distinction. I can verify it through actions, touch, etc. REAL STUFF. Deny that. You want to deny that love exists? I know you don't, but you make it sound like that. All I want to deny is that a being exists for whom there is no proof, no pictures. Do you think there is a tooth fairy? How old are you? Do you want to know what REALLY IS? I do. Ain't seen any gods. Have you?
 
2002-11-17 01:50:27 AM
Sannyasin
I'd expect that religious people will continue to be represented beyond their statistical likelihood in every productive field with the exception of those fields which contravene the religion. The simple reason being: Whatever motivation an atheist or agnostic might have to lead a productive life, a religious person has all of those reasons in addition to the fact that they are doing "God's work".

Do you have anything to back up "represented beyond their statistical likelihood in every productive field with the exception of those fields which contravene the religion"? I'd say that just the opposite is happening, at the highest levels of intellectual endeavor, religious (especially highly religious) people are statistically underrepresented and will only continue to be more so.
 
2002-11-17 03:09:49 AM
"11-16-02 04:39:37 PM B0rg9
Kurmudgeon: Unless you just turn to dirt after you die. In that case if you're a prick you just made a mess of things while you were here."
11-17-02 12:14:58 AM B0rg9
Kurmudgeon: All I'm saying is that you need to consider the relevance of the fact that there may be no afterlife. Unless faith supercedes this point.

All the Bible asks is faith, no different then when someone you know asks you to believe them when they say something. It's always easier to think up reasons to disbelieve. I also believe you reap what you sow, sometimes it takes awhile, sometimes not.
I find your 2nd statement curious, you use both "fact" and "may be" together.
If it may or may not be, it's hardly a fact, don't you think?
Faith is faith, I choose to believe. It's very possible that something like the afterlife is impossible for carbon based life forms such as ourselves to detect or measure despite our best efforts. So the only choice we may have is to take the Bible at it's word or not. The choice is up to you or anyone.
I don't need to see a bunch of super natural happenings.
I don't think that human kind has all the answers, or is capable of framing the questions properly at times.
Somethings will always require faith.
 
2002-11-17 03:56:07 AM
I don't know what Jjj1952 would think, but if I may butt in and say something about "believing in love" or whatever, I would like to say that even if love is nothing more than biochemical reactions, then that is fine by me.

My entire being is more than likely nothing more than biochemical reactions, and every living thing around me is based on this also. Belief is unnecessary - it is a tangible reality. So are the relationships that I have with people around me -which I think is what Jjj1952 may be trying to tell you. Even your "love" for an imaginary superfriend in the sky is nothing more than biochemical reactions.

I have no trouble with that nature of "love," what I am opposed to is faith and belief.

Belief is a nice word for accepting something over and beyond what the evidence and facts show, and faith is another word for stubbornly clinging to that belief even when you are shown that it is most probably misguided or even wrong.

I would say positive human relationships ("the love of those close to me, and civility toward others") are the most important things in life, and leave out the words "belief" and "faith" because they are not necessary.
 
2002-11-17 12:11:10 PM
Armandeus, I think we think along the same lines. You articulate better than I. I noticed no comments opposing your views, possibly because it runs in 24 hr cycles. My email address is jj­j1­9­52[nospam-﹫-backwards]h­tuoslle­b*net. I am interested in sending you a note sometime if you will give me your address. I don't believe in god, life or people. I believe in what I see. It is mostly ugly and sometimes beautiful. We are destroying our natural world little by little. There is no doubt. I don't want to sound like some leftist cry baby. I am a realist. I am lucky (very lucky) to have a wife who loves me. And parents (mid 70's ) who also love me. Without that, I couldn't see much reason to live. We (the human race) are destroying ourselves. For the probably wrong reasons, the militant arabs are probably right about us. It is a materialistic society (I am guilty) and a selfish world. I think we are sadly fooling ourselves about life. But I will hang in there. I love life and people.
 
2002-11-17 06:07:14 PM
I've had pretty much the opposite, I had leukemia for 2 years and I'm not going to be convinced or converted by con artists.
However, I am motivated in favor of doing good work purely for honest motives rather than selfish claims and immature attitudes.
Lighting will cause a far stronger kind of leukemia, so you can't blame that man for living anymore than you can blame me for taking responsibilty in my life.
 
2002-11-17 06:30:42 PM
ForFarkSake,
Just because someone does not believe in God does not make them a con artist.
 
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