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(Some Guy)   Scholar discovers that Catholic Church sanctioned and blessed same-sex marriages for hundreds of years from middle ages to 19th century   ( divider line
    More: Interesting  
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2538 clicks; posted to Main » on 10 Aug 2001 at 9:00 AM (16 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2001-08-10 09:07:22 AM  
SEE we Catholics aint that bad! *lol*
2001-08-10 09:08:36 AM  
But then the priests got jealous and decided they wanted first crack at the young boys.
2001-08-10 09:10:51 AM  
Heh, heh, you said "crack".
2001-08-10 09:11:22 AM  
I must profusely apologize for that last post. I am very tired.
2001-08-10 09:12:44 AM  
oh, so they support "family" values after all
2001-08-10 09:13:03 AM  
I was wondering who would comment on that first.
2001-08-10 09:15:10 AM  
While this is cool and all, I doubt the church will start changing its ways anytime soon.
2001-08-10 09:17:19 AM  
Gotta love them Catholics. The world's best seat fillers. If they aren't screaming that birth control is a sin (thus allowing Catholic women to have baby after baby after baby....) then they bend over backwards allowing any and all to 'join' their church. What a whore. Takes all comers, adheres to no moral standards and presents itself as a bastion of principle. "Hypocrites, sons of vipers,,,," You know the rest.

If you can't fill the church with actual worshippers, then by all means, shovel in society's dregs.
2001-08-10 09:18:37 AM  
theyll never change there ways. theres also massive historical proof that women were the first priests of the gospel, but they still will never let women teach. the Church otday doesnt teach the teachings (awkward i know) of Jesus, but rather of Paul, the farking asshole.
2001-08-10 09:22:07 AM  
I was raised a catholic and the same crap goes on with any major religion, minor ones too for that matter.
Would it be safe to say that when money gets involved with religion, God takes lower priority?
2001-08-10 09:30:16 AM  
For a religion that has soon many grown men anally raping and molesting young boys, I don't see why they have such a problem with two queers marrying.
2001-08-10 09:32:21 AM  
The priests want all the fun to themselves.
2001-08-10 09:43:40 AM  
2001-08-10 09:49:55 AM  
never mind, i dont think there are any defenders of catholics.... sorry
2001-08-10 10:03:32 AM  
As SFOTW has already said, they are no different than any other major organized religion. It's always interesting when people's perception of "how things used to be" get turned on their ear.
2001-08-10 10:12:08 AM  
I just wish there were some hot looking lesbians that visit Fark, instead of bull-dykes like Permafrost and Rei. Then, I would think about blessing some female same-sex unions myself.
2001-08-10 10:15:00 AM  
This one deserves an "obvious" tag. The regulation of sexuality, including homosexuality and masturbation, is a fairly modern innovation. Common knowledge, ken?
2001-08-10 10:46:35 AM  
I'm catholic and I defend my faith as best as I can. My question to all of you is this:

Why the fark do you care??

You're using the catholic church as a whipping boy (like it has been for years) and a fat target for people to shoot at. Until you've been a catholic, know the doctrine and understand there are flaws in one of the largest faiths in the world (which says to me that we're not just BS-ing you like the Baptists and the other pseudo-christians, but we are human); you shouldnt really attack something you have no clue about.

Sure, there have been catholic priests that have done immoral things. So you're saying that Jim Bakker is a saint? That he didnt do anything wrong? Bad examples of how to live are everywhere. Focus on the millions of man-hours that catholics and other christians spend feeding the homeless, helping their society and trying to make a difference. The good far outweighs the bad. But you dont hear about the good stuff very often.

Having legitimate beefs with a faith is fine. Thats why protestants exist. Every protestant faith (baptist, lutheran, etc) all splintered from the CATHOLIC faith. I have no qualms with anyone changing their faith. Its what makes the world such an interesting place to live. I love having discussions (not mudslinging contests) with followers of other faiths, on the condition that we discuss as adults, and dont attack each other's faith. Talk rationally with someone, you might learn something.

We still believe in the same God, we just happen to have different rules to follow. Big hairy farking deal. STFU, realize you're NOT that different. There's only one judge in this universe, and it aint me. Go kill your babies, preach about how holy you are while you slander other people, and leave us Catholics alone.
2001-08-10 10:53:08 AM  
You see, i've always thought that it was Oscar Wilde that screwed it up for all the homo sapiens in the 19th century.

Is it just the Catholic church? what about the church of England? From what i understand, it was bad form to be Catholic in England after Henry vii. Hey, maybe that's how the catholics in England maintained their membership: by condoning homo genized relationships. :-)
2001-08-10 11:01:22 AM  
Deerslayer: If it makes you feel any better, I make no distinctions between the Christian dominations, be they Catholic or Protestant--I don't believe any of them equally.
2001-08-10 11:03:56 AM  
deerslayer....look at track records and you'll see which groups get slammed the most...catholics,baptists, on and so on. the more visiable you are the more individuals are going to want to get the dirt on you....about like the whole jenna bush deal.
2001-08-10 11:07:28 AM  
A lot of people aren't aware that the modern gay rights movement actually began in Germany around the turn of the century. It lasted through World War I, but died as the Nazis took power and passed laws making homosexuality or anything resembling it to be a crime. All homosexuals found or those suspected of being homosexual were sent to the concentration camps, where they often got the worst treatment. All prisoners had symbols on their clothing to state what their offense was. For example, a yellow triangle was "race defiler". Jews had an additional, inverted yellow triangle, making it into a star of david. Gay men had the pink triangle on their clothes; lesbians had a black triangle (which lumpted them together with prostitutes). When the US becan occupation of part of Germany and encountered concentration camp victims, they initially began releasing them, until they learned what all the symbols meant; those with pink triangles were shipped to regular prisons (one of the only Nazi laws that wasn't repealed during US occupation was the one against homosexuality).

-= rei =-
2001-08-10 11:15:08 AM  
Wow, Catholics look better and better each day (not sarcasm). I'm more inclined to be open to a faith that changes with the times, and doesn't discriminate against people (although all religions have a long way to go before the discrimination is weeded out completely). People of other religions will always try to find some fault in another, more popular one.
2001-08-10 11:18:00 AM  
Funny you should mention that, Rei. There was an article about gay NAZIs in Germany when Hitler came to power. I can't find the link to the article, but it made reference to famous pictures of NAZI leaders poking at their gestures, how they spoke, dressed, etc.. I will try to find the article before this thread gets too large.
2001-08-10 11:23:35 AM  
Actually I've noticed that the ones that get slammed are the ones that nobody really looks into, and are the least understood by the non-followers.

Id believe Chunderhound's comment except how about the Hindu religion? Judaism? Sure, the Jewish people have been oppressed for most of their history, they've been the whipping boy of the Arab world. Cause they're different and nobody took the time to explore and find out more about their faith.

Some of my best friends are non-christians (Jewish, Buddhist and Wiccan) non-catholics (protestant, baptist, etc) and even some non-religious agnostics. I wont claim to be an orthodox Catholic, I dont follow the dogma of the Catholic faith to the letter. The Catholic faith fits my views best; but I have taken some dogma from other non-christian faiths and applied it to my own view of reality, as well as rejecting some of the Catholic dogmas. I belive it makes me a well-rounded person, and although I dont believe in everything that others do, I have an appreciation for what they believe and why, and I think that appreciation is what is lacking in society today. Nobody cares about anyone else's thoughts, everyone (mainly religious people) is too concerned about shoving their personal views down everyone else's throats.

As for WorldCitizen, I have this quote:
"If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything".

I believe I'll have another cup of coffee.
2001-08-10 11:27:37 AM  
Quote wars, eh? I think I can dig up one...

"If you have nothing to die for, you have nothing to live for."

A bit more abstract when it comes to the topic, but still fits :)

How long do you think it will be until someone brings up the Marx quote?
2001-08-10 11:28:42 AM  
I'd have to agree with you, Deerslayer. People slam religions for the same reason they do most everything else: lack of education and understanding.
2001-08-10 11:29:18 AM  
As for WorldCitizen, I have this quote:
"If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything".

Deerslayer: This is a terrible argument. So if I don't believe something that I can not prove, just because someone tells me it's so, I will fall for anything? Quite the contrary. I think people that believe in something just because that's what their parents believed are more likely to fall for anything.
2001-08-10 11:30:25 AM  

If there were any, they were most definitely in the closet, to say the least ;)


If you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything

That's a pretty ludicrous, undefendable quote.

Take a look at how long inaccurate publications/misquotes spreads through creationist circles vs. evolutionist circles, for example. :)

-= rei =-
2001-08-10 11:34:28 AM  
"if you don't believe in something, you'll fall for anything."

wow, that has to be the weakest quote i've ever seen anyone dredge up, especially coming from someone who buys the whole santa claus in the sky story. it's called evolution.... look into it.
2001-08-10 11:34:32 AM  
Deerslayer-"Go kill your babies, preach about how holy you are while you slander other people..."

The irony...
2001-08-10 11:35:13 AM  
Deerslayer: If you were born in India, chances are you would be a devote Hindu and believe that was the absolute truth. If you were born in Iran, chances are you would be a devote Muslim and believe that was the absolute truth. If you were born in Isreal, chances are you would be a devote Jew and believe that was the absolute truth. I try no to base any of my beliefs on the accident of geography.
2001-08-10 11:38:07 AM  
Ha, I can't spell anything today! I just re-read that and realized that I wrote "devote" every time! I meant "devout". Wow, I'm just going to go crawl back into my cave now...
2001-08-10 11:39:08 AM  
Worldcitizen: Are you saying that you do not believe because no one has proved it to you? Or because you have not proved it to yourself?

I am confused by your statement.
2001-08-10 11:46:02 AM  
Kydaran : The Catholic church doesn't have to change and that's why they won't. The faith is different now than it was a number of centuries ago. It has evolved and has become what it has become. A person's past does not tell them all about who they are. Same thing goes for religions. So, they let a woman preach, they married gays. Doesn't mean they have to do anything about it now. That's part of the deal.

Deerslayer : Obviously you aren't one of the hard core Bible thumpers that most of the Catholic jokes are pointed at. I respect you for being open-minded. The quote you threw at WorldCitizen... I'd just like to point out that believing in yourself is something, is it not? Personally I feel that's more important than putting faith in a god... I don't see him showing himself much these days, though I could be wrong.
2001-08-10 11:51:54 AM  
I will not put any religion over another in my level of me they are all equally as valid/invalid. Until a diety comes down and tells me itself that it exists, there is no way for me to know. There have been so many religions in the history of the world, that I feel who am I to say which, if any, are the "true" religion. Is Christianity more valid to me because I was born in a Christian dominated spot on the globe? No. What if there is life on other planets? How well will our earthcentric religions hold up?
No one can prove religion to me. Maybe somewhere down the road I might be able to convince myself of something. I can see how it would be confortable to have some belief to cling to. When I die, I will find out. Either I will wake up in some afterworld, or simply snap out of existance. It does not keep me awake at night with worry over what that end result will be.
2001-08-10 11:56:53 AM  
No, the Mormons and Scientologists have nowhere near the numbers of many protestant sects ... Lutherans, Baptists, and Methodists far outnumber any of them. Mormons get slammed because they base their faith on a guy who was killed in a two-way gun battle after saying that he was the Jesus of the Americas. Scientologists get mocked because they follow the rantings of a science-fiction writer (for cryin' out loud). And we Catholics get mocked for a lot of good reasons too. Think about it: if you're an outsider, why on earth would you want to defend someone else's religion? I say let 'em say what they want to, Deerslayer. Anyone who takes the Bible seriously should know that the Catholic faith is well-grounded in its teachings (which is where some of the other Christian sects fail when they criticize us), but if you don't take it seriously, you can pretty much go ahead and say whatever you want.

Besides, we know what they've got coming to them ... mwahahahaha ... :)
2001-08-10 11:58:31 AM  
"So if I don't believe something that I can not prove, just because someone tells me it's so, I will fall for anything?"

This isn't really a clear statement. Deerslayer said that if I don't believe in something, I will fall for anything.
I say, if someone tells me something that I can not prove is true, yet I have faith in it anyway based on what they say, THAT would be more like falling for anything. From where I stand, it seems that questioning what you are told, and not believing it simply out of faith in another's words, would make one much less likely to fall for anything.
2001-08-10 11:58:47 AM  
I was raised Catholic... I haven't forgiven my parents since. I actually thought that "Dogma" was a perfect represenation of Catholicism, especially Linda Fiorentino's protrayal of a faithless Catholic that works in a abortion clinic and Alan Rickman's protrayal as the would-be boozer Metatron.

All joking aside... when Religion gives you a headache... three world. Bob... is... m.
2001-08-10 11:58:58 AM  
"Believe in nothing. The believing mind is clinically dead."
2001-08-10 12:07:01 PM  
Dogma.. that was a great movie. I watch and buy anything with Kevin Smith as the writer/director/actor.
2001-08-10 12:12:00 PM  
A few points cry out to be made: 1) This may come as a surprise to the perverts out there, but male friendship does not necessarily involve corn-holing. 2) Most of the so-called evidence presented doesn't involve Catholics, coming as it does from post-Reformation England. 3) I love it when jackasses show their hatred for Catholicism; it reinforces my faith as does nothing else.
2001-08-10 12:15:41 PM  
Speaking of Metatron, can anyone think of any other angels apart from Metatron and Lucifer whose named did not end in "El" (God) ? I was just thinking about that, and wondered why only those two... perhaps its a linguistic corrpution? Or a different source?

-= rei =-
2001-08-10 12:22:34 PM  
wasn't there one called Goober? He wore a funny hat, kinda slow...
2001-08-10 12:24:45 PM  
One final, desperate attempt to keep this thread from turning into a repeat of yesterday's holy war:

In case you're taking this as a regular Yahoo News story (usually from Reuters), check the byline. And I'll leave searching the web to find what else Alan Bray's area of emphasis as an exercise to the reader, although you can probably take a good guess already.

Not to say that the article should be automatically discounted because of the source... but take it with a grain or ten of salt.

- VIIseven7
2001-08-10 12:26:53 PM  
I think it's supposed to be "If you don't STAND for something, you'll fall for anything." Lombardi quote or something.
2001-08-10 12:32:05 PM  
Rei: Normally I agree with your postings and especially your fact-finding... this time I've got to disagree.

There were homosexuals amongst the heigher-up's of the Nazi party in Germany just prior to World War II. Amongst them were Ernst Roehm. I'm providing a link here to another page with more detail on him and his part in the Nazi party. (I hope I got that right)

In addition Himmler's beef with homosexuals was primarily due to his research into homosexuality in history. He had determined that gay men and women were actually a third sex (based off earlier sexual research in germany in the 1920's) and furthermore, because of the preponderance of homosexuals in history (such as Alexander the Great, Michaelangelo, and Leonardo da Vinci) that they might actually be superior to the "german race". As such, they had to be exterminated lest they rise up against the germans and overthrow them. The irony is that of course Himmler only found famous homosexuals in history... who would remember the ones that weren't famous? His error in logic led to Paragraph 175 (making homosexuality illegal in Germany) and the extermination of thousands of gay men and women.

As for the Catholic Church... I grew up Catholic. (8 years of nuns, 4 years of priests, and 12 years of therapy) I've since recovered from the trauma and can quite sincerely blame Catholicism for some of the most heinous acts in history. Not that there are many other organized religions with a squeaky clean slate but with the destruction of the largest library of the ancient world, the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and so on... the Catholic Church is easily the most destructive religion in history.
2001-08-10 12:32:20 PM  
Gabriel, Michael, Kal-El...
Can't think of any others. Probably just a coincidence.

- VIIseven7
2001-08-10 12:33:09 PM  
Pretnar: That's an entirely different meaning, and I might possibly agree with that one.
2001-08-10 12:40:10 PM  
Rei: On angels and their naming...

Sandalphon was another named angel not ending in "el". Here's a full text on angels, their nomenclature, and history...

Hope you find it interesting...
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