Ron Paul Revere: cjoshuav: I wish one of these "leftist liberal enclaves" would finally go ahead and secede...

...so I can move there.

/lives in a leftist liberal enclave
//surrounded by conservative rednecks who control the state legislature
///feels Seattle's pain

I really, really take great enjoyment when a lefty points out the wisdom of states' rights and bottom-up, locality controlled government and don't even realize it.

It's truly sublime.

Deliciously ironic, isn't it? The funny thing is, if there actually was another Civil War in this country, it's entirely possible it could be started by hardcore environmental types or some other far-left group (not to say that fundamentalists trying to break off isn't equally possible, BTW; I'm an equal-opportunity ridiculer).

The one thing that always gets me, though, is how you'd fight a civil war that was urban vs. rural. That whole lack of contiguous territory (except perhaps the DC - Boston corridor) would really foul things up for the cities.

A Seattle secession would be about as successful as a Californian secession.
The mayor compares the area's economy to Thailand, Colombia, and Venezuela. If he doesn't realize that
a) a huge part of that economy's success stems from free trade with 300 million other Americans; and
b)The Seattle area has a standard of living light years ahead of those countries because they are a part of the greater US economy;
he's a complete idiot.

Damn, but I wish that Chicago would do that. I'm tired of those socialist (nearly Stalinist) bastards dictating to the rest of the state.

Espertron: The former American states of Oregon and Washington and the former Canadian province of British Columbia must join together as a sovereign nation. Only then can we have self-determination and take our rightful place in the Global Community.

/I lol'd

Actually, that political arrangement makes more sense in today's world than the current arrangement does. At least as a state or province in a larger US/Canada if not as a sovereign nation.

And besides, if you like Seattle, Vancouver is like Seattle on Steroids. GREAT city.

Back to the article


This is kind of funny to hear a Western WA politician spout the secession line. This is the old Eastern Washington political refrain--"We need to get out from under the thumb of those rich liberals over in Seattle!"

But I have to admit there is one main reason why I have opposed having E. WA split off and form it's own state: I just hate the prospect of having to tell people I went to LSU:



However, if the West Side split off and became Cascadia, then the UW would become the UC, and perhaps they might change their uniforms to something less awful than Purple and Gold.

Forest and Tan perhaps?

Shaggy_C: I think where the major disagreement lies between you and a 'lefty' is whether or not the aggregated opinions and voting of millions people over a large area can better protect fundamental rights than the local will of the majority. We probably agree on what local government should represent, but I'm more inclined to think that basic human rights should be guaranteed from the top rather than have us have to fight for them constantly on our own.

That's what the judicial branch is for. Majority rule always ends in tragedy.

Farkn Yaj Yenrac: A Seattle secession would be about as successful as a Californian secession.
The mayor compares the area's economy to Thailand, Colombia, and Venezuela. If he doesn't realize that
a) a huge part of that economy's success stems from free trade with 300 million other Americans; and
b)The Seattle area has a standard of living light years ahead of those countries because they are a part of the greater US economy;
he's a complete idiot.

NAFTA

They'd lose nothing.

Ron Paul Revere: Majority rule always ends in tragedy.

What? Are you arguing for Minority Rule, sire?

Shaggy_C: What? Are you arguing for Minority Rule, sire?

No, I'm arguing that the way the Framers setup the power balance was wise beyond its years. It keeps a slim majority from ruling over the minority.

cws1967: Damn, but I wish that Chicago would do that. I'm tired of those socialist (nearly Stalinist) bastards dictating to the rest of the state.

I wonder what percentage of the state lives or works in Cook County...hmm...

TheGreyPiper: "We have rural legislators making decisions on things like the viaduct and whether we can keep our city safe," Nickels said.

Viaduct?

Zee Google Foo, you needs it.



Wiki Article (pops)

alex_dularge: You mayer is retarded.

Is his first name O-S-C-A-R?

Shaggy_C: schnarff: Our road infrastructure is crumbling (our traffic is 2nd or 3rd-worst in the country, depending on who you ask),

Erm maybe...but I don't think you're even close to the 8 lane parking lots of LA, Chicago, or NYC

You'd be surprised. The Beltway, the Dulles Toll Road (I love *paying* to be stuck in traffic!), I-66, I-270, I-95, US-50...they're all disasters of the highest order, let alone trying to get through downtown at any point during the day. I say this having driven recently in both NYC and LA, too. It really boils down to the fact that the DC metro area (which goes all the way to Baltimore these days) has had a massive population explosion over the last ~10 years with nothing anywhere near the road expansion we need.

I can only hope Daley picks up on this idea.

Ron Paul Revere: No, I'm arguing that the way the Framers setup the power balance was wise beyond its years. It keeps a slim majority from ruling over the minority.

On issues of basic rights, yes. We need those set in stone; but this is the reason we have to have a federal government that enforces those rights at the local level; this is what the entire Civil War was fought over.

schnarff: Shaggy_C: schnarff: Our road infrastructure is crumbling (our traffic is 2nd or 3rd-worst in the country, depending on who you ask),

Erm maybe...but I don't think you're even close to the 8 lane parking lots of LA, Chicago, or NYC

You'd be surprised. The Beltway, the Dulles Toll Road (I love *paying* to be stuck in traffic!), I-66, I-270, I-95, US-50...they're all disasters of the highest order, let alone trying to get through downtown at any point during the day. I say this having driven recently in both NYC and LA, too. It really boils down to the fact that the DC metro area (which goes all the way to Baltimore these days) has had a massive population explosion over the last ~10 years with nothing anywhere near the road expansion we need.

I left DC in 2005. My last job had me commuting from Gaithersburg to Anacostia, and it was hell back then. Went back recently and it's only gotten worse.

Ron Paul Revere: TheGreyPiper: Viaduct?

It's a double-decker, 3-lane (sometimes 4 on the top) bridge that spans the Seattle waterfront. It's old and probably in need of replacement.

Imagine the Nimitz HWY, circa 1988.

Shaggy_C:NAFTA

They'd lose nothing.

Splitters aren't allowed to be part of NAFTA.
Also, they couldn't compete with Mexico.

szyska: Maybe they could follow Boston's example and put the whole thing under ground...

Please.

Let's not start that political war all over again.

Greg Nickels would like to have another go at it, though.

I have lots of things to say on this topic, but none of them are funny or particularly insightful, so I will just say.....Booo Nickels.....Yeah Seattle!

TMBGfreak: schnarff: Shaggy_C: schnarff: Our road infrastructure is crumbling (our traffic is 2nd or 3rd-worst in the country, depending on who you ask),

Erm maybe...but I don't think you're even close to the 8 lane parking lots of LA, Chicago, or NYC

You'd be surprised. The Beltway, the Dulles Toll Road (I love *paying* to be stuck in traffic!), I-66, I-270, I-95, US-50...they're all disasters of the highest order, let alone trying to get through downtown at any point during the day. I say this having driven recently in both NYC and LA, too. It really boils down to the fact that the DC metro area (which goes all the way to Baltimore these days) has had a massive population explosion over the last ~10 years with nothing anywhere near the road expansion we need.

I left DC in 2005. My last job had me commuting from Gaithersburg to Anacostia, and it was hell back then. Went back recently and it's only gotten worse.

Wow, that would suck tremendously.

/He says after making his Arlington - Columbia, MD commute
//At least it's a reverse commute

Ron Paul Revere: I really, really take great enjoyment when a lefty points out the wisdom of states' rights and bottom-up, locality controlled government and don't even realize it.

It's truly sublime.

Ditto for righties.

Face it: one person's "state's rights" is another persons "moral abomination"

schnarff: At least it's a reverse commute

You drive backwards? Or is it like reverse discrimination, where your car drives you?

walnuts55:

Should have built one more , but thats OK We are going to like watching the Sonics here in Oklahoma next year .


Please, take them. Enjoy. We were done with them years ago. As if we needed to keep one more whiny, lose-a-lot sports team.

slidillon: where your car drives you?

That only happens in Russia.

Soviet.


Russia.

Washington will be part of Monatdaho after the revolution^. (they need a port)

The Battle of Seattle will be written in the history books as the defining moment in Monatdaho history.

vernonFL: This is so true. Go to Northern California to see the mix of hippies and lumberjacks. They should make a reality TV show out of it.

I'd watch it! Mainly because some hippies would end up getting their asses beat.

Just not on MTV where the lumberjacks would always be wrong or Fox News where they would always be right.

Mmmm Discovery Channel. Hosted by Mike Rowe (he has nothing else going on)

One often hears seccesion talk, particularly from California and Texas. For one thing, Uncle Sam won't let it happen in any case. Uncle Sam already waged a merciless war to suppress secessionists and preserve the Union, and Uncle Sam would do it again.

But all in all, I generally agree with Farkn Yaj Yenrac.

California is the classic case. When the issue of secession comes up they boast of their large and diverse economy and aver that it could stand alone. But they don't take into account three factors: Water, energy, and trade.

The Colorado River Upper Basin states, in event of California secession, could choose to impound and use far more water, leaving Southern California much drier.

California depends on the Western grid for a great deal of its natural gas and electricity. This energy could similarly be withheld or increased in price.

Much of California's agricultural industry is robust not only because of the favorable growing conditions, but also because they have quick access to Eastern markets. This could be denied or subjected to heavy tolls. It's also very dependant upon the aforementioned Colorado River water.

No, the U.S. economy is a great big synergistic engine that is greater than the sum of its parts. Secession talk is puerile, frankly. The trend in North America is towards greater integration, not disintegration. Of course, desperate conditions could reverse that trend.

I get the impression that this Seattle mayor is a jackass, and let's face it: The "red-blue" divide in this country is a largely artificial, media-induced scam. It is a tempest in a teapot whipped up in order to bleed off political energy while the "two" parties quietly agree on every important policy. It's a sham and a fashion show.

A tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

slidillon: schnarff: At least it's a reverse commute

You drive backwards? Or is it like reverse discrimination, where your car drives you?

It means I'm leaving DC (once I drive across it, anyway), and since most of the traffic is headed into town, I'm going "against the flow" and have minimal traffic to hassle with on the way up in the mornings. It's just all full of suck in the afternoons, though, no matter which way you go (never have figured that out).

SnoreCriminal: Has the mayor consulted with the Salish-Sidhe counsel on this though?

I came for the Shadowrun references, and I was not disappointed.

Good job, sir.

/elf rat-shaman
//misses playing

schnarff

It's just like here in Northern Virginia. Fairfax county gets approximately $0.20 in services on every $1 in taxes it pays to Richmond. Our road infrastructure is crumbling (our traffic is 2nd or 3rd-worst in the country, depending on who you ask), our schools are bursting at the seams...but if all of our tax money was being spent locally, we'd have the best transit & school systems in the world.

No. You would not. That money is not going to be spent on transport or good schooling. It will be spent on voters trying to get their hands on a slice of the voting bribe pie. DC metro area's transport problems are not due to lack of money or lack of local control. They are due to the incredibly selfish nature of the people who live there. They want good transport, but immediately moan and complain as soon as anything tries to get built because it "hurts the environment, threatens the children, the elderly, and healthcare" - I'm not even talking about so-called polluting highways or so-called overpriced subways here - I'm talking about SIDEWALKS. They want good schools but will not hold their own children to high standards. They will demand that money be spent on endless stupid projects that artificially enrich them - usually by restricting necessary increases in housing so they can pocket excessive rents . Richmond giving the money back would only be good for one thing - exposing what a bunch of greedy jerks DCers are.

I actually love Seattle. I think that it is America at its best. One of the main reasons for this is that it generally is not liberal. It is pragmatic. The rural area keeps the massive abuses of the trust fund loony lefties who fill Seattle under control. Just as the moderates who work hard and go to work everyday in Seattle make sure it is nice and clean and respects peoples rights.

/native DCer
//born and raised IN DC - not a suburbanite
///often ashamed of my hometown
////but not so much anymore - Go NATIONALS!
//Hey, at least for once it's a bribe than benefits me

TMBGfreak: schnarff: Shaggy_C: schnarff: Our road infrastructure is crumbling (our traffic is 2nd or 3rd-worst in the country, depending on who you ask),

Erm maybe...but I don't think you're even close to the 8 lane parking lots of LA, Chicago, or NYC

You'd be surprised. The Beltway, the Dulles Toll Road (I love *paying* to be stuck in traffic!), I-66, I-270, I-95, US-50...they're all disasters of the highest order, let alone trying to get through downtown at any point during the day. I say this having driven recently in both NYC and LA, too. It really boils down to the fact that the DC metro area (which goes all the way to Baltimore these days) has had a massive population explosion over the last ~10 years with nothing anywhere near the road expansion we need.

I left DC in 2005. My last job had me commuting from Gaithersburg to Anacostia, and it was hell back then. Went back recently and it's only gotten worse.

That's devotion to drive all the way from Gaithersburg to Anacostia to sell crack!

/Drives Alexandria to Rockville, no air conditioning in car
//Not to sell drugs
///Hates life

canyoneer: No, the U.S. economy is a great big synergistic engine that is greater than the sum of its parts. Secession talk is puerile, frankly. The trend in North America is towards greater integration, not disintegration. Of course, desperate conditions could reverse that trend.

I don't believe that he suggested seceding from the USA, just from the Eastern part of the state.

schnarff: I'm going "against the flow" and have minimal traffic to hassle with on the way up in the mornings

Yeah, lots of people use the term. I just find it to be an odd way of saying it. It implies that a commute is only a commute if you are going the same direction as the majority of the traffic. Not that I can think of a better way to say it, but that doesn't preclude me from giving people a hard time about it:)

/Maybe if you work night shift, you can call it a reverse commute, IDK

schnarff: Ron Paul Revere: cjoshuav: I wish one of these "leftist liberal enclaves" would finally go ahead and secede...

...so I can move there.

/lives in a leftist liberal enclave
//surrounded by conservative rednecks who control the state legislature
///feels Seattle's pain

I really, really take great enjoyment when a lefty points out the wisdom of states' rights and bottom-up, locality controlled government and don't even realize it.

It's truly sublime.

Deliciously ironic, isn't it?

You know what gets me? That people still think republicans stand for state's rights.

Ron Paul Revere: GaryPDX: Okay, now this is just weird. Here's how it works in the NW. You have fringe Liberal enclaves, Seattle, Portland and Eugene. The rest of the NW is pretty right sided. Having the Mayor of Seattle basically declare City State desires is just too weird. They really do believe they are a City State unto themselves. They'll have fun trying to feed themselves with what they fish off the docks.

If King County split off from the rest of the state, the rest of the state would be the ones starving. Their nice roads and all the other social benefits they have are a result of the resilient economy here.


Have to ask. If this were the case why is King County/Seattle dependent on the State and worse still the Federal Government to solve SEATTLE'S transportation problems? Is Seattle incapable of raising revenue? Has it no taxation authority? Being populated by a lot of leftist hippie watermelon types who like paying taxes why would it even have transportation problems? Shouldn't most of them be riding bikes, walking or taking mass transit?

Skleenar: I don't believe that he suggested seceding from the USA, just from the Eastern part of the state.

"Our region should declare its independence," Nickels said.

The Puget Sound regional economy makes up 67 percent of the state's economic activity, he said. "If we were a country, [our economy] would be just a little smaller than Thailand. We would be larger than Colombia, Venezuela. We are held back because our state and federal government still believe our economies are driven by wheat farms and timber logging."

OK, so I see where the thought about seceding from the country came from.

I really don't believe that anyone in Seattle politics seriously believes this would be a good idea.

I think he was making a point.

However, I do concede that there is good evidence for canyoneer's read.

Ron Paul Revere

I really, really take great enjoyment when a lefty points out the wisdom of states' rights and bottom-up, locality controlled government and don't even realize it.

Yeah, it's almost as funny as when a righty automatically defends the Bush administration, which has set back states' rights even more than the Civil War did.

Show me the articles of the Constitution that allow the executive branch to create courts under its direct control, create agencies with legislative functions, overrule state laws that conflict with said agencies, functionally revoke state control of the National Guard, and indefinitely suspend habeas corpus - all in the name of a vaguely-defined not-quite-war it declared itself, usurping the Senate's duty.

States' rights and local control of government are the only safe havens "lefties" have had for seven years. Two years ago, we took the majority of governorships for the first time since the Gingrich Revolution. Where have you been?

Vagpuncher: schnarff: Ron Paul Revere: cjoshuav: I wish one of these "leftist liberal enclaves" would finally go ahead and secede...

...so I can move there.

/lives in a leftist liberal enclave
//surrounded by conservative rednecks who control the state legislature
///feels Seattle's pain

I really, really take great enjoyment when a lefty points out the wisdom of states' rights and bottom-up, locality controlled government and don't even realize it.

It's truly sublime.

Deliciously ironic, isn't it?

You know what gets me? That people still think republicans stand for state's rights.

..Or fiscal responsibility. Or veterans benefits. People are idiots. Seattlites are pretty bright, hence the "librul" moniker.

hasty ambush: Ron Paul Revere: GaryPDX: Okay, now this is just weird. Here's how it works in the NW. You have fringe Liberal enclaves, Seattle, Portland and Eugene. The rest of the NW is pretty right sided. Having the Mayor of Seattle basically declare City State desires is just too weird. They really do believe they are a City State unto themselves. They'll have fun trying to feed themselves with what they fish off the docks.

If King County split off from the rest of the state, the rest of the state would be the ones starving. Their nice roads and all the other social benefits they have are a result of the resilient economy here.


Have to ask. If this were the case why is King County/Seattle dependent on the State and worse still the Federal Government to solve SEATTLE'S transportation problems? Is Seattle incapable of raising revenue? Has it no taxation authority? Being populated by a lot of leftist hippie watermelon types who like paying taxes why would it even have transportation problems? Shouldn't most of them be riding bikes, walking or taking mass transit?

They are. but keep spouting off and show your ignorance.

Skleenar

Equally puerile. All the Eastern Washingtonites have to do is seal I-90 at Snoqualmie Pass, and the thriving ports of the Puget Sound would become useless. Most of the crap coming into those ports goes to the interior of the continent. Seattle's just a loading dock, basically.

Farkn Yaj Yenrac: A Seattle secession would be about as successful as a Californian secession.
The mayor compares the area's economy to Thailand, Colombia, and Venezuela. If he doesn't realize that
a) a huge part of that economy's success stems from free trade with 300 million other Americans; and
b)The Seattle area has a standard of living light years ahead of those countries because they are a part of the greater US economy;
he's a complete idiot.

why would that change? I imagine free trade with the US and Canada would be established rather quickly.

Approves

canyoneer: Skleenar

Equally puerile. All the Eastern Washingtonites have to do is seal I-90 at Snoqualmie Pass, and the thriving ports of the Puget Sound would become useless. Most of the crap coming into those ports goes to the interior of the continent. Seattle's just a loading dock, basically.

LOL

ArcadianRefugee: What, no Shadowrun references?

What, no "Jericho" references either?


/Kansas, not Chris

nyil: SnoreCriminal: Has the mayor consulted with the Salish-Sidhe counsel on this though?

I came for the Shadowrun references, and I was not disappointed.

Good job, sir.

/elf rat-shaman
//misses playing

/part-time Ork Scientist
//part-time Human douchebag mindraper/"Journalist"
///part-time Human Military Combat Decker

i'm all for spinning up the conservatives, but not so wise when your city is surrounded by the rest of the state and a sound full of compost and dead jellyfish.

suppose they could all take the ferry to victoria when the conservatives grab their pitchforks and white costumes.

I live in Spokane, so I am really getting a kick out of this.

/really