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(Chron)   Here are nine billion reasons the Feds aren't interested in stopping illegal immigration   (chron.com) divider line 418
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33485 clicks; posted to Main » on 14 Apr 2008 at 4:40 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-04-14 07:52:56 PM
CliChe Guevara: You all seem to be missing the point. This article is complete FUD.

How in the hell are they supposed to be paying social security and tax witholdings without a social security number? If they have one, they aren't undocumented illegals. Duh.

This article is transparent crap propaganda. Sorry to break it to you.


Did you even READ TFA??
They give bogus SS#'s to their employer. Employer withholds taxes that go to that SS#. The IRS will gladly accept phantom money with no clear record of who it came from. When worker retires, he can't ask for the social security he paid into. Not only is there no way to ask for that not being a US citizen, but there's no record of you paying into the system.
 
2008-04-14 07:53:54 PM
Anyway, how many of you are descended from "legal" immigrants?

A large majority, and you don't need the quotation marks. Any clue when open immigration ended and there became such a thing as illegal immigrants in this country? So anyone whose ancestors came to the U.S. or its founding colonies before that date, or those who came here legally after it, are descended from legal immigrants.
 
2008-04-14 07:54:05 PM
nosferatv

grotto_man: -They're not descended from the Indians native to the Western US. Those Indians stayed and are all US citizens today.

So very... very wrong.


No, it's true. Most of the population were Indians enserfed on the missions. They stayed. Their descendents today are US citizens.

Anyway, how many of you are descended from "legal" immigrants? I'd wager there are just about as many deadbeat Irish leeching off the system as there are Mexicans. And probably just as many hard-working, honest people from both races as well. Feel free to substitute any race for Irish, they all fit.

All my ancestors immigrated here legally. Also, you're making a strawman racism argument - I never argued that white illegal immigrants were OK, they should be booted out as well.

Furthermore, the native born descendants of illegal are US citizens anyway. That's true of your putative Irish illegals, but it's also true of the descendants of illegal Mexican immigrants. Plenty of Mexican-American citizens are descended from illegals, and no one, including myself, is suggesting that they be disenfranchised.
 
2008-04-14 07:55:54 PM
Pretty sure that 'enforcing our existing immigration laws' and/or booting out all the 'illegal aliens' in America would pretty much crush the agricultural sector of our economy.
 
2008-04-14 07:59:07 PM
I think all species descendant from Proto-Laurasia have no claim of sovereignty over any of the Earth as Proto-Laurasia chose to break off from Pangaea.

/Don't mention Rodinia. I did once but I think I got away with it.
 
2008-04-14 08:04:28 PM
grotto_man:

All my ancestors immigrated here legally. Also, you're making a strawman racism argument.

Oh, sorry about that, not my intention. I used Irish, because I am mostly Irish.

My ancestors came over during an agricultural bust in Ireland to farm in America... much like people from many countries (not just mexico) do today. Poor people, however, don't get to do it 'legally'. They get to either starve or live in fear while working long days for a better life.

I can't say whether its a good or bad thing for our country, I'm not that well informed. There are certainly positives and negatives to illegal immigration, its not black or white.

...and Southern California has been part of Mexico (sigh, yes, I know it was colonized by Spain...) for a loooong time, and If you didn't know better, you'd think most of it still was. Kinda shiatty to kick all those people off land they've been working for hundreds of years imo. They've been there a lot longer than I have.
 
2008-04-14 08:06:01 PM
And they have brown skin! BROWN, I SAY! BROWN!!!111!!!!!
 
2008-04-14 08:09:49 PM
i182.photobucket.com
/beat to it but can't resist
 
2008-04-14 08:11:14 PM
farkfarkaway: 1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year.
Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.
Verify at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.
Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of white non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US
Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.
Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'
Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.
Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States '
Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Still think it's worth the 9 billion???


This needs to be re-posted.
/Thanks
 
2008-04-14 08:15:12 PM
BergZ: That's precisely my point, and I expect to see Weaver95 declaring how much he wants the US-Mexico barrier torn down because that is the only (logically) consistent position with one that supports the free-market.

The free flow of supply and demand without government intervention isn't limited to just commodities & money; It applies to labour too.


But the effects of the transaction aren't limited to the people profiting from it. If a person not here legally takes two dollars in government services but only pays a dollar in taxes, this is in effect a public subsidy of both the worker and the employer. A truly free market would be one where the costs were paid by those incurring them. If non-citizens (and by extension, those who employ them) pay their own way -- not just food and rent, but healthcare, education, legal expenses, and the like -- the criticism directed at them would be somewhat less.
 
2008-04-14 08:18:41 PM
The Federal government may profit somewhat off illegal immigration. Yes there are costs associated with illegal immigration at the federal level. However they are a drop in the bucket compared with the costs at the state and county level. Federal reembursement for the costs associated with illegal immigration (and the lax enforcement that allows it to prosper) is a drop in the bucket.

Sure, many areas may appreciate the cheaper costs in services. There is no denying that illegal immigration depresses wages and allows for cheaper goods and services. However the costs are disproportionately spread to the communities that have to support large numbers of illegal immigrants in a single area. Bumfark middle america may have a few thousand here and there and it does stress their state and county services a bit.

However comparing the impact of illegal immigration there overlooks the massive problems caused in the border states where illegal immigrants predominantly settle. Los Angeles county alone has around 1 million illegal immigrants who stress social services and drive down quality of life. Older article but it has some interesting numbers (new window). The benefit overall comes at a huge cost to many. Just because many do not see it, doesn't mean it does not exist for those in those heavily illegal immigrant areas.

The issue of illegal immigration is complex and difficult to solve. However, does any other nation openly condone the unregulated mass migration the US is supposed to absorb? I think you would be hard pressed to find any nation that is as tolerant and generous to individuals who openly flaunt the law in such a way as illegal immigrants do. Yet somehow, even our generous services and leinent attitudes are not enough for some immigration advocates who somehow seem to think there is a right for any individual to enter the US and take from citizens of this nation. It is sad that other nations don't provide the opportunity for citizens like the US does, however that doesn't mean the US can continue to be as generous as we have in the past.

When we had open immigration policies in the past, there wasn't as robust social safety net. Immigrants came, but they were basically on their own to succeed or fail and increasing population was highly desireable in the rather sparsely populated nation. However today, vast resources are at the disposal of immigrants and should be reserved for those who follow the rules and regulations to enter the country legally. Yes, the system should be reformed to allow for more individuals to enter, but just because there is a unfair law doesn't give anyone the right to violate it. Rewarding illegal behavior should not be done as it only encourages further violations (see the Reagan amnesty).
 
2008-04-14 08:30:00 PM
studebaker hoch: You know what the Mexicans have done?

BUST THEIR ASSES TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

Unlike half the weed-smoking, K-fed listening, X-box playing white boys out there that SHOULD be the pillar of the United States but are instead just pissing their lives away with zero responsibilities and zero goals for a better American future.

They just didn't want it. The Mexicans did, and went to the trouble to get it.

It looks to me like they're earning their place, buying the condemned house and fixing it up while Precious Johnny Whiteboy spends his money on a POS Accura with a tin-can muffler, and heads to the mall with his "posse".

/Dumbasses. You didn't raise your kids to think, and this is what you get. Overrun by people you should have easily been about to out-compete and out-perform. How totally embarrasing.


Dude, you are way out off base.

Nobody listens to K-Fed.
 
2008-04-14 08:30:59 PM
Ulyses: And they have brown skin! BROWN, I SAY! BROWN!!!111!!!!!

You should meet up with a member of the Russian Mafia. Pearly white and crazy violent. They love killing people.

www.thesupernaturalworld.co.uk
 
2008-04-14 08:33:28 PM
Daedalus27: The Federal government may profit somewhat off illegal immigration. Yes there are costs associated with illegal immigration at the federal level. However they are a drop in the bucket compared with the costs at the state and county level. Federal reembursement for the costs associated with illegal immigration (and the lax enforcement that allows it to prosper) is a drop in the bucket.

Sure, many areas may appreciate the cheaper costs in services. There is no denying that illegal immigration depresses wages and allows for cheaper goods and services. However the costs are disproportionately spread to the communities that have to support large numbers of illegal immigrants in a single area. Bumfark middle america may have a few thousand here and there and it does stress their state and county services a bit.

However comparing the impact of illegal immigration there overlooks the massive problems caused in the border states where illegal immigrants predominantly settle. Los Angeles county alone has around 1 million illegal immigrants who stress social services and drive down quality of life. Older article but it has some interesting numbers (new window). The benefit overall comes at a huge cost to many. Just because many do not see it, doesn't mean it does not exist for those in those heavily illegal immigrant areas.

The issue of illegal immigration is complex and difficult to solve. However, does any other nation openly condone the unregulated mass migration the US is supposed to absorb? I think you would be hard pressed to find any nation that is as tolerant and generous to individuals who openly flaunt the law in such a way as illegal immigrants do. Yet somehow, even our generous services and leinent attitudes are not enough for some immigration advocates who somehow seem to think there is a right for any individual to enter the US and take from citizens of this nation. It is sad that other nations don't provide the opportunity for citizens like the US does, however that doesn't mean the US can continue to be as generous as we have in the past.

When we had open immigration policies in the past, there wasn't as robust social safety net. Immigrants came, but they were basically on their own to succeed or fail and increasing population was highly desireable in the rather sparsely populated nation. However today, vast resources are at the disposal of immigrants and should be reserved for those who follow the rules and regulations to enter the country legally. Yes, the system should be reformed to allow for more individuals to enter, but just because there is a unfair law doesn't give anyone the right to violate it. Rewarding illegal behavior should not be done as it only encourages further violations (see the Reagan amnesty).


Reagan gave amnesty to illegals in this country because he employed some on his ranch in southern California and he didn't want a Kimba Wood to blow up on sitting president.

/Somewhere out there, next to the video of Iraqi women prisoners being sodomized by American interregators, there are pics of Reagan with his illegal ranch hands. I would love to see them.
 
2008-04-14 08:33:33 PM
chu2dogg:

[about peer-reviewed]

This article wasn't peer reviewed--it's in a newspaper. Ford refers to the consensus among scholars, meaning, I infer, that the peer-reviewed scholarship says something.

So, I go to a database of peer-reviewed articles on the subject, and I turn up mostly stuff about how immigration works across various countries. If you want the most current book, it looks to me as though it is: Swain, Carol M., ed, Debating Immigration (Camibridge UP, 2007). It looks to me as though the most relevant article is ten years old, but I'm not sure why one would get different results now: "Public Expenditures on Immigrants to the United States, Past and Present" Simon, Julian L.; Population and Development Review, March 1996, v. 22, iss. 1, pp. 99-109

The abstract to that article is:

"Good data show that in the 1970s, immigrants to the United States contributed more to the public coffers than they received in public services. The data, displayed here in fuller detail than in an earlier article in this journal, confirm the conclusion set forth by the author more than a decade earlier. This conclusion is corroborated by Canadian studies for the 1980s and 1990s and by the crude U.S. data available for the most recent period. Any excess in welfare expenditures on immigrants relative to natives is probably limited to the narrowly defined category of welfare payments, which are relatively insignificant compared to expenditures on schooling and social security and probably occurs only among older immigrants."
 
2008-04-14 08:37:50 PM
Ms.Maus: LOGICAL_PSYCHO: I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

True, but I'll bet that the Somalian refugee population here is doing more to suck up taxpayer money than the illegals.


What do you mean it's true? How does someone know, just walking in to a hospital, that the people in it are illegals? You ask them for documentation?

Oh, they speak Spanish. Yeah, that's proof.

(And why are you distinguishing "taxpayers" from "illegals"? Illegals pay taxes--not just the kind this article was talking about, but sales tax, gas tax, sin tax. If you want to make a useful distinction, it would be "illegals" v. "legals.")
 
2008-04-14 08:38:35 PM
Pocket Ninja [TotalFark] Quote 2008-04-14 01:49:34 PM
Katie98_KT: I've brought this up in discussions before about illegals "leeching" tax services, and people are like, there's no way illegals pay taxes, they're stealing our gubm't money!

The underlying problem is that by the time you have to actually take the time to explain this point to someone who's "taking a stand" against illegal immigration, you're already dealing with someone who's probably too dense to comprehend anything but "illegal bad ugh."



That point is totally wrong.

Sure they pay some taxes, but lets see...............

They pay an estimated $9 billion a year, they send an estimated $40 billion a year home, and they cost us an estimated $348 billion a year

I guess it is dipshiats like you, who failed preschool mathematics who simply cannot understand why illegal aliens are a problem.
That's not going into the simple "LEGAL" aspects.
I mean fark it, if your not going to follow the laws, then why even have them, right?
 
2008-04-14 08:40:16 PM
wowzer97pooh: Reagan gave amnesty to illegals in this country because he employed some on his ranch in southern California and he didn't want a Kimba Wood to blow up on sitting president.

/Somewhere out there, next to the video of Iraqi women prisoners being sodomized by American interregators, there are pics of Reagan with his illegal ranch hands. I would love to see them.


It doesn't matter why he did it. Did the one time never ever ever going to happen again and we are going to strictly enforce laws so illegal immigrants can not remain act solve our immigration issue? Heck no, millions have flocked to the US and are remaining in the hopes that amenesty will be offered again if they remain long enough since (for some reason) it is said we cannot deport millions of people. Rewarding illegal behavior encourages further illegal behavior.
 
2008-04-14 08:43:45 PM
for Xanadian

"I'm curious how your hospital (or any hospital) tracks care administered to honest-to-God US citizens (or aliens with green cards, etc) who can't afford regular hospital care? Or people on welfare (tracked as Medicaid?) What about those of us who make just too much money for eligibility for Medicaid, but also have no insurance at work, nor can afford it on their own? Is it given a different name? Just curious."


Easy to do. I worked in a hospital for several years in central new jersey. Just pay a visit to the walk in ER or the FREE clinic the hospital runs.. I can easily pick all the non english speaking illegals out of the room, and if there are 20 people, 18 of them are illegal. And to top it off, usually 6-7 are pregnant(with a kid or two right next to them). And, for the hospital takes all steps to avoid potential lawsuits, the non english speaking illegals are giving far more care than a REGULAR person with insurance. They get every test, precautionary, all free meds, pre-natal, etc. At the end of the month, it is literally written off because the hospital will never see it back. This is in an affluent area of the state, not near an inner city or other "down" area. The independent hospital I worked for wrote off SEVERAL million a month. I couldn't imagine how bad it is closer to the border.
 
2008-04-14 08:53:17 PM
Decent hard working people.
i270.photobucket.com


Their children.
i270.photobucket.com
 
2008-04-14 08:59:58 PM
The independent hospital I worked for wrote off SEVERAL million a month. I couldn't imagine how bad it is closer to the border.

Don't worry about us. The few million we write off due to illegal immgrants not paying for health care is more than made up for in the tens of millions we rake in from the federal government for every aspect of their care during their pregnancies. That's right, every pregnant illegal alien is covered by Medicaid and state funded programs, and not just for pregnancy related issues. I couldn't tell you where all this money comes from, but I'd imagine it doesn't cost me, the average American taxpayer, very much.

Hey, now that I think about it, we're almost giving them incentive to get pregnant, especially since we support the kid after it's born.
 
2008-04-14 09:07:55 PM
I notice a bunch of complaining in here about the taxes that illegal immigrants leech... but where's the complaining about farking income tax bullshiat in the first place. I don't see the thread I was looking for to ease the pain of having to fill out these ridiculous forms that get more complicated every goddamn year.

It's especially amusing this year that I have to fill out the form and pay to get a refund of approximately the same amount (extra) I will pay. Great use of taxpayer money there.

/not to mention all the overtime the IRS owes me for doing what I basically consider their work - great scam, give out a bunch of forms and let other people do your work for you
//wish I could do that at my job...
///not bitter
 
2008-04-14 09:09:07 PM
People today don't realize that their country is getting taken away, and that when it's gone, they don't get another one.

Maybe it's the way they were raised, in that if they lost something there was always another for the asking.

There is only one United States (sarcasm about how that's a good thing goes here) and if you lose it, you don't get another one.

I recommend keeping this one for YOU and YOUR KIDS. It's important that YOURS get it, and not someone else's, because you are the one paying for it, not them.

Illegal immigration is your country getting taken away by other people. They know what they're doing, and they're doing it right now.

The way you keep it is you defend the border, and deport any illegals you find. If you can't or don't want to do this, then you have already written off that much of your country.

And if you can't understand the importance of keeping what you have, then maybe you deserve to lose it, and see what it's like on the other side of the "have and have nots". It would be an expensive way to learn what should be a basic life lesson.
 
2008-04-14 09:14:08 PM
chesterburnette:
What do you mean it's true? How does someone know, just walking in to a hospital, that the people in it are illegals? You ask them for documentation?)


It's true.

It won't let me link, but here is a government study about what undocumented workers cost.
www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/87xx/doc8711/12-6-Immigration.pdf [page 16, search for 'emergency']

In Columbus, even if they have 'documentation' - that doesn't mean shiat. (new window)

So yeah, when I walk into an emergency room and see a slew of Mexicans, I kind of jump to conclusions. I won't go to the extreme of saying that they are all filled to the brim, if that makes you happier.
 
2008-04-14 09:27:09 PM
studebaker hoch: People today don't realize that their country is getting taken away, and that when it's gone, they don't get another one.

Maybe it's the way they were raised, in that if they lost something there was always another for the asking.


Maybe it's your ignorance of history.

What do you mean "their" country? Do you mean the children of illegal immigrants? Or don't they count?

Because, and this is the point you're having trouble with, "the descendants of illegal immigrants" is YOU.
 
2008-04-14 09:30:56 PM
Face it Ms. Maus, there are people who think that if you say ANYTHING disparaging to another group you are a racist pig.
It doesn't matter if you are correct, facts are unimportant, the only thing important to them is that you not hurt anyones feelings.
 
2008-04-14 09:35:19 PM
nosferatv

Pretty sure that 'enforcing our existing immigration laws' and/or booting out all the 'illegal aliens' in America would pretty much crush the agricultural sector of our economy.

That's another lie. From http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/sanctuarycitiesx1be.html, towards the bottom:

With a patient smile and a shrug of his shoulders, one international business spokesperson explains: These good and simple folks are doing jobs Americans refuse to do.

Oh really?

Rich Lowry has pointed out in National Review:

"According to a new survey by the Pew Hispanic Center, illegals make up 24 percent of workers in agriculture, 17 percent in cleaning, 14 percent in construction, and 12 percent in food production. So 86 percent of construction workers, for instance, are either legal immigrants or Americans, despite the fact that this is one of the alleged categories of untouchable jobs."

Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies makes a similar point:

"If the supply of foreign workers were to dry up (say, through actually enforcing the immigration law, for starters), employers would respond to this new, tighter, labor market in two ways. One, they would offer higher wages, increased benefits, and improved working conditions, so as to recruit and retain people from the remaining pool of workers. At the same time, the same employers would look for ways to eliminate some of the jobs they now are having trouble filling. The result would be a new equilibrium, with blue-collar workers making somewhat better money, but each one of those workers being more productive."

Economist Phillip Martin of the University of California at Davis -- who specializes in agricultural economics -- analyzed the guest-worker program of the 1960s and found that when the cheap labor was withdrawn, remaining workers received a 40% increase in wages.

So with this huge rise in wages did the cost of fruits and vegetables spiral out of sight? Nope. In fact, American consumers barely felt the bump.

Martin figures that if those jobs did not go to illegal aliens, the increased wages for legal American workers would cost the average family ABOUT $10 PER YEAR MORE FOR FRUITS AND VEGETABLES!

So don't let the politicians hustle you and don't let the International Business Lobby make you sweat. You can tell yourself with certainty: There is no job Americans won't do for a reasonable wage.
 
2008-04-14 09:36:53 PM
Does anyone seriously believe that uneducated peasants are paying enough in taxes to compensate for the $8000+ (depending on the state) a year that it costs to educate just one of their children? Not to mention their health care, welfare, etc.
 
2008-04-14 09:46:58 PM
grotto_man: nosferatv

Pretty sure that 'enforcing our existing immigration laws' and/or booting out all the 'illegal aliens' in America would pretty much crush the agricultural sector of our economy.

That's another lie. From http://www.cfiflistmanager.org/sanctuarycitiesx1be.html, towards the bottom:

With a patient smile and a shrug of his shoulders, one international business spokesperson explains: These good and simple folks are doing jobs Americans refuse to do.

Oh really?

Rich Lowry has pointed out in National Review:

"According to a new survey by the Pew Hispanic Center, illegals make up 24 percent of workers in agriculture, 17 percent in cleaning, 14 percent in construction, and 12 percent in food production. So 86 percent of construction workers, for instance, are either legal immigrants or Americans, despite the fact that this is one of the alleged categories of untouchable jobs."

Mark Krikorian of the Center for Immigration Studies makes a similar point:

"If the supply of foreign workers were to dry up (say, through actually enforcing the immigration law, for starters), employers would respond to this new, tighter, labor market in two ways. One, they would offer higher wages, increased benefits, and improved working conditions, so as to recruit and retain people from the remaining pool of workers. At the same time, the same employers would look for ways to eliminate some of the jobs they now are having trouble filling. The result would be a new equilibrium, with blue-collar workers making somewhat better money, but each one of those workers being more productive."

Economist Phillip Martin of the University of California at Davis -- who specializes in agricultural economics -- analyzed the guest-worker program of the 1960s and found that when the cheap labor was withdrawn, remaining workers received a 40% increase in wages.

So with this huge rise in wages did the cost of fruits and vegetables spiral out of sight? Nope. In fact, American consumers barely felt the bump.

Martin figures that if those jobs did not go to illegal aliens, the increased wages for legal American workers would cost the average family ABOUT $10 PER YEAR MORE FOR FRUITS AND VEGETABLES!

So don't let the politicians hustle you and don't let the International Business Lobby make you sweat. You can tell yourself with certainty: There is no job Americans won't do for a reasonable wage.


Lies. What makes you think that the farm work illegals do does not pay good. I personally know many people that came here with nothing worked hard in the fields and now OWN the fields or their own house and cars. The illegal immigrant is a hard worker thats the rule not the exception.
 
2008-04-14 09:47:56 PM
nosferatv

And in fact, I remember the claim that a few months ago when ICE made some raids, that crops would rot, which turned out to be bogus - http://www.cis.org/articles/2007/mskoped110607.html and http://www.slate.com/id/2187773/#msmrot .
 
2008-04-14 09:52:38 PM
Lies. What makes you think that the farm work illegals do does not pay good. I personally know many people that came here with nothing worked hard in the fields and now OWN the fields or their own house and cars. The illegal immigrant is a hard worker thats the rule not the exception.

OK, what do you think the illegal aliens are making in the fields on average? And I never said anything about illegal aliens not working hard in the fields. Furthermore, if it's so great for illegal aliens here, why the talk about amnesties anyway?
 
2008-04-14 09:56:57 PM
Illegal Anglos in Texas (It seems like you started it)


Immigration was clearly unwanted in Texas. In the mid-1790s the Spanish placed a permanent unit of troops at Nacogdoches to discourage illegal immigration.

In spite of these restrictions, Anglo-Americans as early as 1815 settled on the Red River north of present-day Clarksville, naming the settlement Jonesborough.

Anglos also entered Texas illegally, fleeing from the law or debts in the United States, and hoping for a new start.

Anglo-American Immigration in Texas (new window)
 
2008-04-14 10:00:21 PM
nebakanezer: Immigration was clearly unwanted in Texas. In the mid-1790s the Spanish placed a permanent unit of troops at Nacogdoches to discourage illegal immigration.

Hmmmm.... Didn't work then, not working now...
 
2008-04-14 10:09:02 PM
PullmyHair: LOGICAL_PSYCHO: Valarius:
3. Illegal immigrants don't destroy the health care system here. Most simply work without it. Now, there are a number of homeless people who do wander into the hospitals. That's usually a warm bed, a meal and some attention. The homeless are actually citizens. Whether or not they pay their taxes, you might want to talk to them about it.

How about you have a big cup of STFU.
I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

Just curious, do they have a giant yellow star or red felt "I" for illegal on their jackets, that can differentiate them from the 'legal' patients?

/drank 2 STFU's this am
//working on my DIAF machiatto


I too am in Columbus...It overflows with them. But im in westerville. High property taxes has one good pint....Keeps those parasites out.
 
2008-04-14 10:13:22 PM
grotto_man: Lies. What makes you think that the farm work illegals do does not pay good. I personally know many people that came here with nothing worked hard in the fields and now OWN the fields or their own house and cars. The illegal immigrant is a hard worker thats the rule not the exception.

OK, what do you think the illegal aliens are making in the fields on average? And I never said anything about illegal aliens not working hard in the fields. Furthermore, if it's so great for illegal aliens here, why the talk about amnesties anyway?


Illegals get paid different wages for the different jobs they might do. Lets keep it simple. The big misconception is that an illegal farm worker gets paid by the hour, about 3 buck. The truth is that they get paid by the box they pack. In other words by how much work they do. Even at a low wage of a buck a box the worker can make a decent living. The box being a standard 1 1/9 bushel box. And they are fast packers. As to your other question amnesty, its a moot point. The illegal is here to stay no way around it.
 
2008-04-14 10:38:35 PM
nebakanezer: Illegal Anglos in Texas (It seems like you started it)


Immigration was clearly unwanted in Texas. In the mid-1790s the Spanish placed a permanent unit of troops at Nacogdoches to discourage illegal immigration.

In spite of these restrictions, Anglo-Americans as early as 1815 settled on the Red River north of present-day Clarksville, naming the settlement Jonesborough.

Anglos also entered Texas illegally, fleeing from the law or debts in the United States, and hoping for a new start.

Anglo-American Immigration in Texas (new window)


What was the result with the unregulated and illegal immigration Spain/Mexico allowed the US immigrants to conduct in Texas territory? Over time, the area became more like the immigrants territory adopting their own customs and culture replacing the indigenous one. Eventually this led to the area declaring independence and being annexed by the immigrants country which it more closely resembled.

Now I am not suggesting that would happen today. But if your going to throw up an example, follow through to show the outcome when illegal immigration was allowed to flow with virtually no restrictions. The territory lost its character of the dominant nation and eventually that nation lost the territory. While illegal immigrants would be hard pressed to change the dominant culture, you can see in certain areas where this has taken place on a small scale.
 
2008-04-14 10:39:46 PM
Someone's got to move into all the empty houses we've already built, so it might as well be them.
 
2008-04-14 10:49:35 PM
Daedalus27: What was the result with the unregulated and illegal immigration Spain/Mexico allowed the US immigrants to conduct in Texas territory? Over time, the area became more like the immigrants territory adopting their own customs and culture replacing the indigenous one. Eventually this led to the area declaring independence and being annexed by the immigrants country which it more closely resembled.


Now I am not suggesting that would happen today. But if your going to throw up an example, follow through to show the outcome when illegal immigration was allowed to flow with virtually no restrictions. The territory lost its character of the dominant nation and eventually that nation lost the territory. While illegal immigrants would be hard pressed to change the dominant culture, you can see in certain areas where this has taken place on a small scale.


Why do I need to do that. It's obvious what happened to Texas. You summarized it nicely.
 
2008-04-14 10:50:11 PM
chesterburnette

Maybe it's your ignorance of history.

Maybe it's your mom...but I digress (don't say stupid stuff in Internet forums. Yeah, we all know the history.)

What do you mean "their" country? Do you mean the children of illegal immigrants? Or don't they count?

If they're here illegally, they don't count.

Because, and this is the point you're having trouble with, "the descendants of illegal immigrants" is YOU.

Way to miss the point entirely.

Say you own a house on some property. You inherited the place from your parents, they got it from theirs, etc, but it's come down to you holding the title to the place.

What if one day...someone camps out waaaay out in the back yard, where you can't even see them. What do you do? What if this person says "You don't own this land, you stole it from us in the Indian wars 200 years ago". Do you let him stay there? Would you?

What tribe of Indians...and where did THEY get it? Did they take it over from another tribe 5,000 years ago without giving that tribes' representatives due process before legally obtaining the land?

History is THEN. This is NOW.

You own the house now, and you have some guy out back with his car and his tent, saying he has an ancestral right to live on your land.

You need to call the police, and have him removed. Why?

Because, if you do not, next week, it's TWO tents. Then a camper, and finally a small outbuilding. Next, a vegetable garden, and a fence! Then...his wife and kids.

This is too much, you finally say, and you move to evict him. Not so fast, he says, he's now been here more than three years, and has obtained some kind of legal toehold or other, "squatters rights" to his place, since he's been here so long. He's taking YOU to court now for harassing him.

What happened?

Your apathy towards protecting what is currently yours resulted in losing part of your property. You may have needed that land for your son to build his first house at 18, rather than pay rent to someone else. You may have been able to sell it and retire early. Doesn't matter now, someone arrived illegally under current law and legal status, and you let that person take your land.

This is the current situation with illegal immigration in the USA. Yes, we know that the treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo may not have been on the legal up-and-up, and there was probably a good chance that all parties involved were legally inebriated on good tequila which was the style of governance at the time. Doesn't matter, not one bit.

What matters is that, regardless of the winding path through the smoke of history, this is your land NOW.

And if you want to keep it, you'll defend it. So you can use it today and tomorrow. And maybe leave it to your kids.

Or, you can decide you don't want it after all, and give it to the people who jump your fence to build huts in your back yard.

Your choice.

Just remember that, once the land is theirs, they'll NEVER, EVER allow you to do what you have allowed them to do.

They're not that stupid.
 
2008-04-14 11:11:55 PM
This is what pissed me off in the article:

"He feels obliged to pay taxes - even though, as Pantoja said, "nothing would happen" to him if he did not."
Bullshiat he feels obliged.
 
2008-04-14 11:15:58 PM
Wow! Racism is Fun!
 
2008-04-14 11:24:00 PM
We aren't talking about any particular race here.

People that try to spin the illegal immigration issue into a race issue are of the same cloth as those that claim that "supporting the troops" means being in favor of war.

Most people see these ploys and just roll their eyes.

Race is not the issue. Keeping what is (currently) yours is the issue.
 
2008-04-14 11:48:01 PM
jst3p: If consumers stole the electronics they would have more money to spend on the higher food prices. "It is easier this way" is not a valid reason to ignore the law.

I wasn't implying that things are the way they should be, just pointing out the way that things are. One of the major hurdles to resolving issues with illegal immigration is the impact that any change will have on the economy. The impact that it has is very broad and would be very noticeable if all 9 million or whatever of them were just suddenly deported. We would feel it in the same way we feel a shift in the price of gas, with ripple effects through other parts of the economy.

wowzer97pooh: Alveen, come live in my neighborhood so you can see some of those costs externalized by business and government. Murders, robberies, drug smuggling, assaults, gangs...none of those costs are included in your math. But go ahead. As long as you aren't a victim of this crap, what do you care.

Crime is not caused by economic problems its caused by social problems. Poor children are more likely to be involved in crime because they're more likely to be raised in an environment of hopelessness. They're more likely to attend school districts that have systemic problems leading them to offer a poor education regardless of how much money they have to spend.
 
2008-04-14 11:50:59 PM
studebaker hoch: We aren't talking about any particular race here.

People that try to spin the illegal immigration issue into a race issue are of the same cloth as those that claim that "supporting the troops" means being in favor of war.

Most people see these ploys and just roll their eyes.

Race is not the issue. Keeping what is (currently) yours is the issue.


So if race is not the issue then who are you talking about when you say "they" and "you can decide you don't want it after all, and give it to the people who jump your fence to build huts in your back yard."

Sounds like to me that you are singling some race out.
 
2008-04-15 12:05:21 AM
trueaustinite 2008-04-14 05:13:02 PM
Spoonfed'sBuddy: Well, since they are here illegally to earn the money, one could argue that they aren't legally entitled to any of it.

One COULD argue that. But one would be a moran.


So if I rob a bank, I should be able to keep the money?
 
2008-04-15 12:09:55 AM
Chinese_Torture_Socks: trueaustinite 2008-04-14 05:13:02 PM
Spoonfed'sBuddy: Well, since they are here illegally to earn the money, one could argue that they aren't legally entitled to any of it.

One COULD argue that. But one would be a moran.

So if I rob a bank, I should be able to keep the money?


More like if I rob a bank and then I get robbed do they keep the money.
 
2008-04-15 12:31:00 AM
Lol, illegal occupation can easily be overseen if you are the one doing it.

i74.photobucket.com

I would post some Indians and stuff, but it has already been done in this thread.

Now that i've given my 2 cents, i'll just sit back. Anyone up for some popcorn?

davidschwartz.com
 
2008-04-15 12:49:13 AM
Look at the unemployment rate for white people.

They took my JORB!
 
2008-04-15 01:16:56 AM
shocker66s

So if race is not the issue then who are you talking about when you say "they" and "you can decide you don't want it after all, and give it to the people who jump your fence to build huts in your back yard."

Sounds like to me that you are singling some race out.

In the current context, these illegals are mostly Hispanic. Before you jump on that with the "that's waysis" kid, bear in mind that if these people were purple and not brown, we'd still call them illegals and have them removed under the law. I don't care what race they are or aren't, the issue is illegal immigration, not skin color. Legal Hispanics in the USA have the same rights as anyone, so long as they are not gays.

/full disclosure - I have many Hispanic friends and have boinked a few. They hotties ;)
 
2008-04-15 01:18:46 AM
Alveen: jst3p: If consumers stole the electronics they would have more money to spend on the higher food prices. "It is easier this way" is not a valid reason to ignore the law.

I wasn't implying that things are the way they should be, just pointing out the way that things are. One of the major hurdles to resolving issues with illegal immigration is the impact that any change will have on the economy. The impact that it has is very broad and would be very noticeable if all 9 million or whatever of them were just suddenly deported. We would feel it in the same way we feel a shift in the price of gas, with ripple effects through other parts of the economy.

wowzer97pooh: Alveen, come live in my neighborhood so you can see some of those costs externalized by business and government. Murders, robberies, drug smuggling, assaults, gangs...none of those costs are included in your math. But go ahead. As long as you aren't a victim of this crap, what do you care.

Crime is not caused by economic problems its caused by social problems. Poor children are more likely to be involved in crime because they're more likely to be raised in an environment of hopelessness. They're more likely to attend school districts that have systemic problems leading them to offer a poor education regardless of how much money they have to spend.


Alveen, crime is caused by criminals--and illegal aliens are all criminals--being allowed to continue their criminal lifestyle. If they can get away with it, they will commit crime.

People who can make $40K a weekend smuggling drugs and people are not hopeless nor do they discourage their children from a life of crime. Not all illegals are violent criminals but there are more than enough to spoil the lives of innocent people who would never have met up with the felons if the immigration laws had been enforced.
 
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