So ... since the illegals are paying taxes and not getting refunds because they're afraid to file ... can I claim that as some sort of deduction?

Sympathy meter for illegals:

E .'`. F

wowzer97pooh: Uncle Karl: wowzer97pooh: Does my local dairy consortium ship their milk and butter overseas? Not really. It's made sold and consumed locally.

This is because Americans do not have any idea how to make butter.

/Sad but true

You take a cow and shake it real well then squeeze it real hard.

See what I mean.

/you need bacteria to do it right
//You culture it, something Americans obviously would not know anything about.

FTFA - "I have an idea, a mentality, that to be a good citizen you have to pay taxes," he said. "Also, I'm conscious of the fact that the money we pay in taxes supports the schools and all the public services."

See, not all illegal immigrants are leaches. Some actually have a conscience.

Uncle Karl: wowzer97pooh: Uncle Karl: wowzer97pooh: Does my local dairy consortium ship their milk and butter overseas? Not really. It's made sold and consumed locally.

This is because Americans do not have any idea how to make butter.

/Sad but true

You take a cow and shake it real well then squeeze it real hard.

See what I mean.

/you need bacteria to do it right
//You culture it, something Americans obviously would not know anything about.

I threw my own beurrier and used it too. Interesting design and practical. But high temperatures aren't the best thing for butter.

eff ewe: 40oz_A_Knight: the United States is not and shouldn't be the world's handyman/nurse/sugar daddy.

Even when it has assumed that role voluntarily (at least where it sees direct benefit... read as "procurement of natural resources" and the proselytizing of democracy, something we don't do very well ourselves)?

Yes, even when it assumes the role voluntarily. In the present case, Mexicans have refused to elect a halfway sensible government and have decided that the US should change their diaper. Needless to say, this isn't a role we adopted voluntarily, and thus we should be especially quick to reject it.

Uncle Karl:
See what I mean.

/you need bacteria to do it right
//You culture it, something Americans obviously would not know anything about.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

They are Americans, and churn their own butter.

jpbreon: Uncle Karl:
See what I mean.

/you need bacteria to do it right
//You culture it, something Americans obviously would not know anything about.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

They are Americans, and churn their own butter.

They still make it wrong.

/too low a fat content, too much air and water and no culture

I have seen illegal aliens fill out a w-4. They claim 99 depends. They are not paying taxes. Right up to the day they got deported, they paid ZERO in taxes.

perdu: From what they report on the news, alot of the wages that illegals and other immigrants earn in the US is sent back to their country of origin. How does this effect the US economy? Not too well I would guess, but don't know anything about economics. Anyone?

Everyone's wages, illegal or no, are sent out of the country in the form of buying crap made overseas.

kc987654: wowzer97pooh: kc987654: wowzer97pooh: kc987654: wowzer97pooh: Because illegal immigrants are willing to work for lower wages, the prices on many goods and services remain low. Those said prices would skyrocket if the employees were getting paid what they realistically should be.

Let's see. What would happen to prices if 20 million consumers weren't competing unfairly for goods and services? I bet prices for gasoline, milk, and other staples would be much lower if there were fewer consumers competing for the supply.

What would happen to liquidity if billions of dollars were made illegally and then sent home to countries all over the globe?

Two points:

Market for commodities are global and wouldn't be impacted one way or the other. Prices of non-traded services (e.g. haircuts, construction) might go down, but I would think that would hurt small business owners. Or else they'd go up as wage costs increase. In other words this is hardlyl a slam dunk.

Liquidity isn't impacted by sending dollars abroad. In fact, due to seignorage the government benefits from individuals using our currency abroad. There's not a gold standard--if we need more "liquidity" then we can make it.

Commodities are global huh? Do we buy refined gasoline in Iraq and ship it over here? No, we manufacture gasoline here. Does my local bakery ship bread to China? No, it's baked here and consumed here. Does my local dairy consortium ship their milk and butter overseas? Not really. It's made sold and consumed locally. Does my local electric utility sell it's power to Japan? No, I compete for it's purchase with millions of illegals.

Liquidity is cash. It used to be that workers wages would go into the local economy. Banks and credit unions would use that cash in deposits to write locally held mortgages on homes and other real estate. Ask yourself why it is after years of billions of dollars of cash being taken out of the American economy and savings rates plummeting, why we are in a liquidity crisis and a housing crunch. Of course lots of illegals who buy homes do so with cash so they don't need to worry about qualifying for a mortgage.

A car full of illegals smuggled can mean $40k. Two car loads a day for two days, and you have enough cash to buy a home.

Ask yourself how we can run a current account deficit for decades with all the alleged money flowing out of the economy.

Seriously, more money comes into the US from abroad than goes out--by a long shot.

Here's how cash shows up to do the things that you are talking about--the Fed buys securities and more money is in the economy. If the money goes to Mexico and stays there, well then one can make more money. Meanwhile the interest on the debt that the Fed collects is refunded to the Government (minus Fed expenses). See, printing money is a good business--you just can't do to much of it if the money stays in the country.

Global. Local. Macro. Micro. We are talking about different economies and forces acting on those economies.

WTF does that mean?

/srsly

I simply tried to make the point that if people wish to grant illegals a positive influence--not net but solely positive--on their local economy, that one should also grant that illegals have a negative influence on the local economy. Illegals create demand for goods and services which affect the local price and availability. Globalization has created a global economy but that doesn't mean that local economies have ceased to exist or that the local economies are only influenced by global pressures.

Uncle Karl: jpbreon: Uncle Karl:
See what I mean.

/you need bacteria to do it right
//You culture it, something Americans obviously would not know anything about.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

They are Americans, and churn their own butter.

They still make it wrong.

/too low a fat content, too much air and water and no culture

My grandmother always extended her little pinky when she churned. If that's not culture, I don't know what is.

Largest piece of crap story evar.

We don't keep track of.... then why report it.

9 billion bullets to exterminate them all. That I would believe.

>the United States is not and shouldn't be the world's handyman/nurse/sugar daddy.


interesting most handyman and nurses in America are first or second generation immigrants

I guess we still got that sugar daddy thing going on... for now at least

Pocket Ninja: The underlying problem is that by the time you have to actually take the time to explain this point to someone who's "taking a stand" against illegal immigration, you're already dealing with someone who's probably too dense to comprehend anything but "illegal bad ugh."

THIS.

I once had a Minuteman type launch into a rant about how illegals were trespassing, and they deserved to be shot on sight for this terrible crime against humanity. Seriously, WTF?!

I could be wrong... but...

If you're living in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas (the places most affected and angered by the immigration dilemma), you are living on land forcibly taken from Mexico.

Which forcibly took the land from Native Americans (*hint: dark-skinned mexicans are descendants of Indians).

They were here first. Just sayin'...

Constance Velocity: Everyone's wages, illegal or no, are sent out of the country in the form of buying crap made overseas.

The same Minuteman type from a couple posts up was also up in arms about how illegals were sending money home and there fore it was leaving the economy (and therefore evil). When I asked if that also applied to people spending money on vacations in other countries, his idiot response was "that's regulated, duh. They ask how much you're taking with you." So apparently it's only evil to remove money from the economy if it's a Meskin doing it to feed his family, but not if some white guy spends it on hash in Amsterdam (two examples I brought up in the discussion).

Again, WTF?

What would all of you do for survival if you were so poor that you had no food or shelter? On top of that, if the little money you did have was taken away from the government? If you had no way to provide any type of healthcare for yourself or your family?

Illegal immigrants cost the country more in taxes than they pay in - by $10 billion annually.

Furthermore, if you do legalize them, they'll be eligible for more benefits. And even if they work illegally, thanks to the totalization agreement, they'll be able to get Social Security benefits.

nosferatv

I could be wrong... but...

Yes, you are

If you're living in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas (the places most affected and angered by the immigration dilemma), you are living on land forcibly taken from Mexico.

Which forcibly took the land from Native Americans (*hint: dark-skinned mexicans are descendants of Indians).

They were here first. Just sayin'...

A big FAIL because:

-Mexico's claim to those lands are based on conquests by the Spanish. The original Aztec state didn't include what's today the Western US, it didn't even cover all of present day Mexico

-The illegals are showing up in states such as NY too.

-They're not descended from the Indians native to the Western US. Those Indians stayed and are all US citizens today.

Since I am feeling glib and brevitous I will just add one simple question:

Why not annex Mexico (new window)?

jst3p: FeFiFoFark: The Mexican-Americans go to night school, and take Spanish, and get a C.

/cheech & chong Haw!

Mexican-Americans don't like to get up early, but they have to. So they doi it very slow.

Mexican-Americans have names like Chata and Chele and Chima. And have a son-in-law named Jeff.

9 billion dollars is a pittance when compared to the total budget. Kick the farkers out.

Rea1ity56: What would all of you do for survival if you were so poor that you had no food or shelter? On top of that, if the little money you did have was taken away from the government? If you had no way to provide any type of healthcare for yourself or your family?

Based on some of the Minutemen in this thread, I believe we're supposed to pine away, staring blankly across the river at the opportunity we could have had if only God has bestowed upon us the gift of American citizenship.

Thank heaven for being "good" enough to have been born north of the border.

nosferatv: I could be wrong... but...

If you're living in California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas (the places most affected and angered by the immigration dilemma), you are living on land forcibly taken from Mexico.

Which forcibly took the land from Native Americans (*hint: dark-skinned mexicans are descendants of Indians).

They were here first. Just sayin'...

Well, Native Americans forcibly took this land from mammoths. And mammoths took the land from dinosaurs, only not really because a giant asteroid took this land from dinosaurs. Mammoths just came in and took what was left... goddamn mammoths.

HAW HAW HAW

So sorry, you low rent Bill the Butcher wannabees.

Nine billion dollars sounds like a lot of money, and it is, but it is only about 1.5% of the total $593 billion paid into Social Security in 2005.
Link (new window)

socalnewwaver: basically, in my state (california), all you have to do to get some kind of coverage plan is have a pulse. and be legal...

I'm from California and a U.S. citizen. I was working part time jobs for over 5-6 years during which I had absolutely no health insurance. The state denied me insurance because I was "too old" (I'm 25...) and rarely do part-time jobs pay for health insurance. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't make crap up.

kc987654: chester: I wish people knew the history of this issue too. Almost everyone on fark, unless they're descended exclusively from the *first* set of people who walked across the Bering Strait, is descended from illegal immigrants who were, in their day, k ...

Meh, I think you should ask all the species of megafauna hunted to extinction by Native Americans whether they were all that welcome.

No, no, that was the second set of people who came over.

Dang furriners; they ruined everything.

LOGICAL_PSYCHO: I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

True, but I'll bet that the Somalian refugee population here is doing more to suck up taxpayer money than the illegals.

Plastic and Juice

They were here first. Just sayin'...

Well, Native Americans forcibly took this land from mammoths.

In addition to my original rebuttal to that line of nonsense, I'd note that pre-Columbians took land from other pre-Columbians. They had the normal amount of wars, slaughters, conquests, etc. that were found in Asia, Africa, and Europe. The Aztecs own history told that they came to Tenochtitlan from the north.

The underlying problem is that by the time you have to actually take the time to explain this point to someone who's "taking a stand" against illegal immigration, you're already dealing with someone who's probably too dense to comprehend anything but "illegal bad ugh."

The illegals who have been using my social security number for about 4 years never pay taxes (outside of the mandatories taken by the employer) by claiming max deductions. Apparently I work all along the eastern seaboard at multiple jobs at the same time. I'm the one who gets audited every year. So excuse me for letting you know you're biased, in a different way. That, and you're factually incorrect.

//9 Billion in taxes, right. What they mean is 9B in Social Security

socalnewwaver: actually, i was originally a meteorology major in college, and i happen to have read extensively on the global warming issue. it shouldn't be hard for you to find any information on the topic, i've heard google is quite handy.

grotto_man:
-They're not descended from the Indians native to the Western US. Those Indians stayed and are all US citizens today.

Yes, because the border is a completely natural line that was never crossed in either direction by any indigenous people at any time. And as a result, the point that nosferatv was making is meaningless.

Or... "Hey, look over there (obfuscate, obfuscate)."

The point was that "Americans'" (me, and I assume, you) claim of manifest destiny is, from an ethical perspective, tenuous. My ancestors wrangled this land away from the Spanish, who conquered the previous tenants (Aztec, Zapotec, Tigua, Apache, etc.).

12 million illegals in the US? Let's be more realistic, it's more like 20-40 million. Even at 25 million (the Reagan administration seems to have underestimated the illegals in the 1980s by 50-60%), we're talking $9 billion/25 million = $360/person, not counting the legal kids that might make up tens of millions more. This does not count the millions per hospital per month, school system costs of catching up kids who are years behind where they should be, or the criminal element. If we do not control the borders soon, we risk losing many essential services because of having to cover far more people with the same or very slightly increased budgets.

You know what the Mexicans have done?

BUST THEIR ASSES TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

Unlike half the weed-smoking, K-fed listening, X-box playing white boys out there that SHOULD be the pillar of the United States but are instead just pissing their lives away with zero responsibilities and zero goals for a better American future.

They just didn't want it. The Mexicans did, and went to the trouble to get it.

It looks to me like they're earning their place, buying the condemned house and fixing it up while Precious Johnny Whiteboy spends his money on a POS Accura with a tin-can muffler, and heads to the mall with his "posse".

/Dumbasses. You didn't raise your kids to think, and this is what you get. Overrun by people you should have easily been about to out-compete and out-perform. How totally embarrasing.

For what it's worth, before NAFTA, illegal mexican immigration was less than 1/6th of what it is today. Our subsidized corn knocked out many small corn farmers, and many of them (and those economically tied to them) packed their bags and headed north.

/the more you know

I'm an ex pat american living in Mexico.
It is a fallacy to think that all Mexicans want to go to America. Most are patriotic and proud. Even most of those who migrate intend to do it temporarily with the prospect of better wages that they can support thier family with. While there are many success stories about migrants in the states, there are almost daily sob stories in the papers here about people who are the victims of racisim or exploitation after arriving. to read the news in the states you'd think all want to go north and it is encouraged. I can say that the opposite is true, I see TV commercials frequently as well as posters in public places warning of the dangers and risks of going to the states.
People go because of the whole "grass is greener" concept.
I can say that life in Mexico is not nearly as bad as the average american thinks. There is a middle class in Mexico, and a pretty large one which is growing. That will continue as long as they keep electing conservitive presidents.
If it were easier to Immigrate legally they would, The system as it is now is very expensive which prohibits those very people who want to go from doing it legally. I tried to get my wife a fiance visa and 16 months and 2000$ into the process we stopped ( when the U.S. demanded that we travel across Mexico to an interview appointment and doctor exam) out of frustration.
Just another point of view.

You all seem to be missing the point. This article is complete FUD.

How in the hell are they supposed to be paying social security and tax witholdings without a social security number? If they have one, they aren't undocumented illegals. Duh.

This article is transparent crap propaganda. Sorry to break it to you.

studebaker hoch: You know what the Mexicans have done?

BUST THEIR ASSES TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF THEIR LIVES.

Unlike half the weed-smoking, K-fed listening, X-box playing white boys out there that SHOULD be the pillar of the United States but are instead just pissing their lives away with zero responsibilities and zero goals for a better American future.

They just didn't want it. The Mexicans did, and went to the trouble to get it.

It looks to me like they're earning their place, buying the condemned house and fixing it up while Precious Johnny Whiteboy spends his money on a POS Accura with a tin-can muffler, and heads to the mall with his "posse".

/Dumbasses. You didn't raise your kids to think, and this is what you get. Overrun by people you should have easily been about to out-compete and out-perform. How totally embarrasing.

Not all of them, I've encountered some illegals that commit crimes, seem to disappear to another state/country, then resurface in another state or back here to commit more crimes. Also, some of them are very disrespectful of our laws/customs, their behavior is not tolerated in their country and nor should it be here.

/let's invoke the same laws for illegals as Mexico
//we definitely need to reform the legal immigration system too
///considers it discrimination to allow 20+ million illegals to be here while millions (many with valuable skills) overseas follow the rules and have to languish waiting for an answer

I'm surprised we treat Mexicans as well as we do.

I see all kinds of Mexican flags flown here in the USA, in windows and on cars, and it's all good. Freedom of speech, yay USA.

Fly an American flag in Mexico sometime and see what happens. You'll get your ass beat, your car pulled, or your house attacked.

There is a serious double standard at work here. You're giving your country to people that don't like you and once they legally own it, it's theirs and not yours anymore.

The border fence is the right idea, about 50 years too late.

/disclaimer: I'm all for *legal* immigration. This is America after all. If you can pass muster and get in legally, welcome.

dipdunk

Not all of them, I've encountered some illegals that commit crimes, seem to disappear to another state/country, then resurface in another state or back here to commit more crimes. Also, some of them are very disrespectful of our laws/customs, their behavior is not tolerated in their country and nor should it be here.

I don't think a significant number of them commmit crimes while they're here. They just fill up the resources, road space, housing space, the hospitals, the schools, etc.

They create a huge load that we cannot afford. We pay for infrastructure that we do not get. They ride for free.

It's good for them, but bad for us. I can't blame them for coming. I can blame us for being so indecisive and so stupid that we don't care or even seem to notice the invasion.

By the time it can't be ignored, it will be far too late to stop. And if we don't care enough to do anything, then that's it.

Welcome to Aztlan. The reconquista.

Next stop...secesssion from the USA!

socalnewwaver: Pocket Ninja: The underlying problem is that by the time you have to actually take the time to explain this point to someone who's "taking a stand" against illegal immigration, you're already dealing with someone who's probably too dense to comprehend anything but "illegal bad ugh."

FAIL.

the alternative may be that you are dealing with someone who, like me, works in a field that is negatively impacted by illegal immigration.

my hospital writes off $1 million every farking month in "unfunded care", which is a pc way of referring to health care administered to illegals.

not everyone with an opposing viewpoint is a knuckle-dragging neanderthal. despite your obvious prejudices, it appears they get it much more than you.

I work under DHHS for a state with a large hispanic population. 67% of our patients are hispanic and 88% of those have their bills covered by medicaid. It's taxing us so bad now that we're going to be either reducing our services or changing the copay for those who can pay.

For each family we see they do financials. Many people "have no income" at all. I wonder how they're paying for their apartments, cable tv, etc? Rainbows and unicorns maybe?

grotto_man: -They're not descended from the Indians native to the Western US. Those Indians stayed and are all US citizens today.

So very... very wrong.

Anyway, how many of you are descended from "legal" immigrants? I'd wager there are just about as many deadbeat Irish leeching off the system as there are Mexicans. And probably just as many hard-working, honest people from both races as well. Feel free to substitute any race for Irish, they all fit.

Imbrifer

For what it's worth, before NAFTA, illegal mexican immigration was less than 1/6th of what it is today. Our subsidized corn knocked out many small corn farmers, and many of them (and those economically tied to them) packed their bags and headed north.

/the more you know

True. I was opposed to NAFTA myself.

eff ewe

Yes, because the border is a completely natural line that was never crossed in either direction by any indigenous people at any time. And as a result, the point that nosferatv was making is meaningless.

I never claimed that no one ever crossed it at any time. But he was making it seem as though the illegals were somehow returning home, which is BS - the great majority of their ancestry weren't from what's now the western US at the time of the Mexican war, or at any significant time before that.

Or... "Hey, look over there (obfuscate, obfuscate)."

You're the one whose obfuscating, not me, by raising objections to things I never said.

The point was that "Americans'" (me, and I assume, you) claim of manifest destiny is, from an ethical perspective, tenuous. My ancestors wrangled this land away from the Spanish, who conquered the previous tenants (Aztec, Zapotec, Tigua, Apache, etc.).

...and these groups conquered the land from others before them. What's your point? I never made any claim about "manifest destiny". Every state on Earth is the result of military conquest to a greater or lesser extent. You can rationalize away all national boundaries and cause complete chaos if that were ever done.

To preserve the peace, our national idenity, and our already eroded quality of life we can and should enforce our immigration laws. We're one of the few nations on earth stupid enough to coddle illegals, and allow as much legal immigration, as we do. Hell, Mexico itelf boots out Central Americans and no one gets on their case about it.

studebaker hoch: dipdunk

Not all of them, I've encountered some illegals that commit crimes, seem to disappear to another state/country, then resurface in another state or back here to commit more crimes. Also, some of them are very disrespectful of our laws/customs, their behavior is not tolerated in their country and nor should it be here.

I don't think a significant number of them commmit crimes while they're here. They just fill up the resources, road space, housing space, the hospitals, the schools, etc.

They create a huge load that we cannot afford. We pay for infrastructure that we do not get. They ride for free.

It's good for them, but bad for us. I can't blame them for coming. I can blame us for being so indecisive and so stupid that we don't care or even seem to notice the invasion.

By the time it can't be ignored, it will be far too late to stop. And if we don't care enough to do anything, then that's it.

Welcome to Aztlan. The reconquista.

Next stop...secesssion from the USA!

Being here illegally is a crime.