Uncle Karl: SchlingFo: Uncle Karl: If we simply fined employers $50k/day/illegal with a 1 year mandatory minimum felony sentence per illegal, that would straighten right out. They would stop coming over when no one would take the chance to hire them.

That'll never happen. Neither the feds nor the businesses want to stop illegal immigration.

If they wanted to stop illegal immigration, they'd take a note from what Mexico has been doing since 2005.

Station troops all along the Southern border. Mexico has reduced illegal immigration into their country by 50% in three years by doing this.

My solution would be I think more effective and would actually pay for itself with one trip to the Tyson chicken plant.

But of course they do not want that, they just want to use this as a way to get votes.

Wow, what a great idea--because food isn't already becoming more expensive in leaps and bounds. Let's try to get a bunch of media and communications majors to slice up chickens for $10 an hour.

Valarius:
3. Illegal immigrants don't destroy the health care system here. Most simply work without it. Now, there are a number of homeless people who do wander into the hospitals. That's usually a warm bed, a meal and some attention. The homeless are actually citizens. Whether or not they pay their taxes, you might want to talk to them about it.

How about you have a big cup of STFU.
I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

The_Sponge: I used to work in California politics (Ventura County), and on the rare occasions I was at the State Capitol, it always amazed me how so many idiots were able to get elected.

They represent "the people".

Most people are idiots.


There ya go.

The issue of illegal immigration is a complicated one. Are there a lot of expenses associated with providing schooling for children of illegal immigrants, health care, liabilities as a result of accidents without insurance, etc. Of course! Nobody can deny that, there are always costs, the point is that there is also a lot of profit, not only for our government but for firms employing these immigrants. First, many firms are able to compete and provide services at lower prices, which in turn means that many of us pay less for foodstuffs which given our currently high oil prices would likely cost even more than they do now, allow us to save or invest our money in other areas. Additionally, because illegals use fake Social security cards, numbers, their earnings (as the article points out) are automatically deducted from their paychecks, which means the government gets that extra revenue they would not otherwise get, and which offsets many of the expenses both the federal and state governments make in caring for illegals at school, hospitals, etc.

Additionally, someone above asked about illegals sending remittances to their countries of origin and how that helped our economy. It does so in two ways. First, it gives their families left behind additional income to survive, and eventually become consumers in their own markets, markets to which we also export, hence from which we receive profits. As these people become consumers, more prosperous relative to their brethren in the US, they can send their children to better schools, and through education get them better jobs in their own countries thereby lessening the pressures to emigrate to the US in the first instance. Granted, sometimes the pressure increases as family members see those who have emigrated thrive in the US and come looking for similar dreams, however, even then all that means is that the countries from where immigrants are coming no longer have to cope with the massive amount of unemployed that in earlier times would have created crisis and toppled governments. Instead, these can over time improve their services and better integrate into the global economy to provide jobs for those who stayed behind.

Whatsmore, as more workers emigrate to the US leaving these countries behind, they also reduce the labor pool there, and thanks to our free trade agreements, as more jobs are created there, with a smaller labor pool workers are able to demand not only better pay but more rights. That helps stability in the countries in the long run, and means that we will have to worry less about unstable states over time and instead focus on the market opportunities available to us and our business.

On this point, I should also note that a lot of businesses also spring up to cater to the immigrant communities from supermarkets to barbershops, travel services, parcel services, communication services that cater to them and add value to our own economy. Additionally, they also revive dying towns, or economies in regions of the US left behind by our own economic growth in sectors like IT. That's why, despite the rhetoric, illegal immigration ends up being a net positive.

Are there things we can do to not only control the crime that also comes with such a massive wave of people, yes, New York did it, they allowed illegals to report crimes to the NYC police without fear of being reported to immigration. Partly as a result, crime in immigrant communities was reduced markedly.

There are many problems, including spousal abuse, high prison rates, illiteracy, but all these we can address with common sense approaches that move away from the demogoguic formulas and more toward pragmatic decision and policy making.

Yeah, I don't think $9 billion is why the govt. isn't stopping illegal immigration. That sounds like a lot of money to normal people, but the govt isn't run by normal people. $9 billion is nothing to them.

I don't think the illegal immigration problem will ever be "solved" until we figure out why people will risk their lives and go into serious debt to very bad people in order to come here illegally. Is doing it legally that damn difficult? If so, maybe instead of keeping it that way and enriching coyotes and the law enforcement people who take bribes from them, we should maybe make it easier to do legally. We don't throw open the borders and say, "C'mon in!" And I'm not suggesting amnesty for people already here, either. Not sure if there is anything to do about them that won't cost more than it's worth. But what we're doing now clearly isn't working. I say that we welcome these people as future Americans and to make sure they know what that means, we make them legal as quickly as possible and start taxing the shiat outta them, the way the govt. does the rest of us. Being an American means, above all, being a taxpayer.

Pocket Ninja: The underlying problem is that by the time you have to actually take the time to explain this point to someone who's "taking a stand" against illegal immigration, you're already dealing with someone who's probably too dense to comprehend anything but "illegal bad ugh."

by all means. Open the floodgates and let all the illegals in. According to you, we might very well erase the national debt in doing so.

-Without illegal immigration the price for certain types of food would get even higher.
- Illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes.
- The farms they work on earn more money and pay more through the taxes on their profits.
- Food is exempt from sales tax and illegal immigrant labor helps keep food prices lower. This leaves consumers with more disposable income to spend on things like electronics and beer that do have sales taxes (and excise taxes and liquor distribution licenses, etc...).

Illegal immigrant taxes are like free money. They are essentially subsidizing the huge entitlement programs because they cannot receive social security or medicare benefits.
The widespread assumption that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy is the result of a successful p.r. campaign by labor unions. It is a boon for the economy and a source of revenue for the government. It's free trade in action except agriculture can't be outsourced like manufacturing. The machinery is the land so instead of taking the machinery to the cheap labor the cheap labor is going to the land. The labor has to remain illegal because the government can't afford to pay for all of them to participate in entitlement programs. This is why the only way to allow these people to work in the US legally without causing a major shock to the economy (or federal budget) is to create a guest worker program that maintains the current tax w/o benefits system.

Hideously Gigantic Smurf: The solution is simple...

Bring America to THEM...

Invade Mexico!

They've got a schittload of oil, a pitiful military, and they all want to come here anyway.

Let's do it the old fashioned way. Infect college students mid-flight with small pox. Then annex the land around the end of Summer.

Why is it that alot of people are so extreme for both sides of the argument? The fact is, illegal immigrants do contribute to our economy is a positive manner. Because illegal immigrants are willing to work for lower wages, the prices on many goods and services remain low. Those said prices would skyrocket if the employees were getting paid what they realistically should be.

On the other hand, some kind of structure does need to be set when it comes to the flow of illegals entering our nation and companies employing them. There would be a certain point that the number of illegal immigrants could be so large that it has a negative impact on the economy. I do not agree with just kicking them all out. Many illegal immigrants are only here to work for a period of time and go back home anyhow. Most are not here to start trouble and commit crimes.

One person here said that it's usually the second generation that causes problems and in a way that's very true. The second generation, however, are usually here as citizens and they take for granted what their parents have sacrificed.

In closing, it would be damn near impossible to kick all illegal immigrants out. And if that were to somehow happen, they would find a way back. Is it really worth spending the time and the money on something that would just keep cycling anyway?
Some type of amnesty should be granted to those that are already here (not given freely of course.) And some sort of plan should be made for the future.

Either way, not everyone (Americans) will be completely satisfied and the issue will never go away. Best to at least find some type of middle ground.

For those of you dividing $9 billion by the estimated 12 million illegals, please RTFA. That's $9 billion in Social Security taxes alone.

Blinxs: (RE: Removing the birthright citizen clause)

Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

Okay.....then what say we 'adjust' it so citizenship on birth is predicated by the condition that one or both parents are either citizens or here legally?

What's your problem with that?

I am a US citizen, and one of many without health insurance. I go to a physician's office (when absolutely necessary, maybe twice a year if I'm really, really sick - sinus infection with green stuff coming out, for example) that charges on a sliding scale if you make below a certain threshold and are uninsured. I can only speak of the six or so times I've been there, but on those occasions, most of the others in the (packed) waiting room were non-English-speaking moms with multiple kids in tow. They may have been 'underdressed', but did not appear 'well off'. I know that a family with at least 4 kids and a mom that I saw there the last time I was there left with a bill much lower than mine -- and my husband and I were both unemployed at the time, so they couldn't have been much lower on the 'sliding scale' of income than we were... Sure, they could have been uninsured homeless citizens -- but if they were, they had neglected to learn the language in that time.

I don't even remember why I started posting this. It's been a crappy kind of a day... :p Sorry.

OttoDog: That illegals have billion$ withheld in taxes isn't indicative tat they contribute.
Because of wage levels, they typically receive most or all of it back, and pick up THOUSANDS per household (on top of the refund of withheld tax) in Earned Income Credit.

They are a HUGE drain on income tax revenue.

See if you RTFA, they suggest that these refundable tax credits as well as withholdings tend not to be taken advantage of because the illegals are afraid to file.

/your outrage, misplaced it is

Alveen: -Without illegal immigration the price for certain types of food would get even higher.
- Illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes.
- The farms they work on earn more money and pay more through the taxes on their profits.
- Food is exempt from sales tax and illegal immigrant labor helps keep food prices lower. This leaves consumers with more disposable income to spend on things like electronics and beer that do have sales taxes (and excise taxes and liquor distribution licenses, etc...).

Illegal immigrant taxes are like free money. They are essentially subsidizing the huge entitlement programs because they cannot receive social security or medicare benefits.
The widespread assumption that illegal immigrants are a drain on the economy is the result of a successful p.r. campaign by labor unions. It is a boon for the economy and a source of revenue for the government. It's free trade in action except agriculture can't be outsourced like manufacturing. The machinery is the land so instead of taking the machinery to the cheap labor the cheap labor is going to the land. The labor has to remain illegal because the government can't afford to pay for all of them to participate in entitlement programs. This is why the only way to allow these people to work in the US legally without causing a major shock to the economy (or federal budget) is to create a guest worker program that maintains the current tax w/o benefits system.

Alveen, come live in my neighborhood so you can see some of those costs externalized by business and government. Murders, robberies, drug smuggling, assaults, gangs...none of those costs are included in your math. But go ahead. As long as you aren't a victim of this crap, what do you care.

Alveen: -Without illegal immigration the price for certain types of food would get even higher.

Maybe it should be then.

- Illegal immigrants pay billions in taxes.

And use more in unpaid services.

- The farms they work on earn more money and pay more through the taxes on their profits.

So? The farms would earn more money breaking even more laws, the ends does not justify the means.


- Food is exempt from sales tax and illegal immigrant labor helps keep food prices lower. This leaves consumers with more disposable income to spend on things like electronics and beer that do have sales taxes (and excise taxes and liquor distribution licenses, etc...).

If consumers stole the electronics they would have more money to spend on the higher food prices. "It is easier this way" is not a valid reason to ignore the law.

Giblet: No, after the law passes, if you are then born in the US but neither parent is a US citizen, then neither are you.

Perfectly fair. Lots of other countries do it that way and you don't hear non-stop whining about it.


They also have far bigger problems with integrating even legal immigrants into their societies and end up with resentful youths who seek only to be recognized as citizens of the countries they were born in and where they have grown up. For an example of that idiotic policy at work look at France.

Dreamer254: Is this the epic thread for the day?

No, that would be the "Who's your favorite TV character?" thread. This is Fark, after all.

Uncle Karl 2008-04-14 05:07:30 PM
BergZ: Isn't the border fence just an artificial barrier between the supply of labour (immigrants) and demand for that labour (American businesses)? According to the free-market all artificial barriers between supply and demand be torn down.

"For that to work labor needs to have to right to move anywhere it wants as well. Until then it is an unfair advantage to capital."

That's precisely my point, and I expect to see Weaver95 declaring how much he wants the US-Mexico barrier torn down because that is the only (logically) consistent position with one that supports the free-market.

The free flow of supply and demand without government intervention isn't limited to just commodities & money; It applies to labour too.

Last year, 4,264,142 babies were born in the United States. That's 4.3 MILLION people added onto the strain of the economy! These people don't work, don't contribute in any meaningful form to society; all they do is drool, eat, and sleep. Who's going to pay for the resources to support all these extra people coming into the country every year? Do you have any idea what that kind of population influx will do to our infrastructure? We need to close the baby-borders now!

Now switch babies with immigrants. See how that works?

jst3p: Blinxs: Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

To play devils advocate:

Because we have enough of your poor, tired, hungry huddled masses?

I think it is because the Italians became Guidos.

/it's not worth risking some other horror of that magnitude

socalnewwaver: PurplePimpSaber: a think tank which is much more neo-conservative than it is libertarian.

i understand. i get it. it's a 'right-wing,' 'neo-conservative' think tank. which automatically means it couldn't possibly produce anything of value.and that's my point. you didn't disagree with or refute the study, or offer any evidence to the contrary. you immediately dismissed it because of the source."There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance-that principle is contempt prior to investigation."

Actually, s/he did.

The evidence was that one study was published in a peer-reviewed journal and one was not. If you know something about the process of peer-reviewing (which you may not, but, if you don't, you should try to figure it out), then you understand why that's a pretty dang good piece of evidence.

I'm not even going to RTFA. It's absurd that a super-lower class of illegal slave labor is keeping the dollars rolling in for the govt. What little they make gets sent home.

kc987654: See if you RTFA, they suggest that these refundable tax credits as well as withholdings tend not to be taken advantage of because the illegals are afraid to file.

/your outrage, misplaced it is

I don't think you understand what tax revenue gets spent on.

Rea1ity56: Why is it that alot of people are so extreme for both sides of the argument? The fact is, illegal immigrants do contribute to our economy is a positive manner. Because illegal immigrants are willing to work for lower wages, the prices on many goods and services remain low. Those said prices would skyrocket if the employees were getting paid what they realistically should be.

So it is OK to ignore the law if it gets us cheaper tomatoes?

Those laws are made to protect the workers, but it is ok to not give the same consideration to workers if they can't complain?

That is some whack logic you have there.

"If I didn't steal my bacon from the store, bacon would cost me more money. So stealing does have a positive aspect."

LOGICAL_PSYCHO:

How about you have a big cup of STFU.
I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

That'll go well with the EAT ME sandwich.

I live near Reno. I can't think of any hospital emergency room anywhere, from Reno to Carson City to Yerington to Elko that has an emergency room with illegals in it.

It's homeless people around here that *supposedly* put a strain all on the services.

Of course, you could try to read the article and the thread before you respond.

LOGICAL_PSYCHO: Valarius:
3. Illegal immigrants don't destroy the health care system here. Most simply work without it. Now, there are a number of homeless people who do wander into the hospitals. That's usually a warm bed, a meal and some attention. The homeless are actually citizens. Whether or not they pay their taxes, you might want to talk to them about it.

How about you have a big cup of STFU.
I live in Columbus Ohio and you cant go to a hospital here that the emergency room is not filled to the brim with illegals.

Just curious, do they have a giant yellow star or red felt "I" for illegal on their jackets, that can differentiate them from the 'legal' patients?

/drank 2 STFU's this am
//working on my DIAF machiatto

Because illegal immigrants are willing to work for lower wages, the prices on many goods and services remain low. Those said prices would skyrocket if the employees were getting paid what they realistically should be.

Let's see. What would happen to prices if 20 million consumers weren't competing unfairly for goods and services? I bet prices for gasoline, milk, and other staples would be much lower if there were fewer consumers competing for the supply.

What would happen to liquidity if billions of dollars were made illegally and then sent home to countries all over the globe?

Oh for hell's sakes. Are people REALLY so stupid that they believe Illegals pay Income Tax? I live in an area where probably 70% of the construction industry is comprised of Illegals, and the ONLY reason the Mexicans come here (and the employers hire them" is because they can both avoid paying taxes.

Seriously, why the hell would any legitimate employer hire an Illegal if they were planning on filing taxes on them? At that point, you might as well just hire a citizen. I love the way the media is spinning all these fairytales about Illegals, such as "they all pay their taxes." Newsflash: you can't even PAY taxes unless you have I.D. documents. But I guess next we'll get an article on what wonderful Forgers our Hispanic population is producing.

Don't forget the added bonus of unchecked illegal immigration: We get to absorb a good portion of Mexico's criminal underclass! Yay! Just look at the statistical breakdown of prison populations, and for kicks, look at how many illegals there are on the FBI's most wanted list.

I get a kick out of people who consider themselves "intellectuals" and assume that the rest of the people who have an opinion based on beliefs, however they developed them, are consider to be the great unwashed and incapable of having a valid opinion. These same intellectuals always begin or finish by referring to people with a different outlook as heathens, uneducated know nothings. What ever happened to "agree to disagree"?

And don't forget when you attack someone else's opinion by personally assaulting them it is quite obvious you don't have the information or the intelligence to challenge that persons opinion.

FireZs: Last year, 4,264,142 babies were born in the United States. That's 4.3 MILLION people added onto the strain of the economy! These people don't work, don't contribute in any meaningful form to society; all they do is drool, eat, and sleep. Who's going to pay for the resources to support all these extra people coming into the country every year? Do you have any idea what that kind of population influx will do to our infrastructure? We need to close the baby-borders now!

Now switch babies with immigrants. See how that works?

You are an idiot, those babies have parents to support them.
Are you suggesting that you would take an immigrant to raise?
Please find somewhere else to troll moran.

jst3p: Hideously Gigantic Smurf: The solution is simple...

Bring America to THEM...

Invade Mexico!

They've got a schittload of oil, a pitiful military, and they all want to come here anyway.

Let's do it the old fashioned way. Infect college students mid-flight with small pox. Then annex the land around the end of Summer.

Naw, that's just dirty pool.

Giblet: Blinxs: Giblet: Katie98_KT: Giblet: The second-gen illegals are another matter.

*blinks*

Oh yeah. I'm also for removing the birthright citizen clause.

Did you have to blink my fool head off? Jeez!

Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

Not retroactively... Very few (if any) laws are retroactive.

No, after the law passes, if you are then born in the US but neither parent is a US citizen, then neither are you.

Perfectly fair. Lots of other countries do it that way and you don't hear non-stop whining about it.

Your laws is enacted and then two children are born. Chris's parents were citizens so he automatically got citizenship. Jason's parents were immigrants and he dosen't get citizenship. So Jason is now a second-class person in this country, even though he agrees with the principles of the country. All cause he lost the cosmic lottery and he came out of the wrong crotch.

Giblet: Blinxs: Giblet: Katie98_KT: Giblet: The second-gen illegals are another matter.

*blinks*

Oh yeah. I'm also for removing the birthright citizen clause.

Did you have to blink my fool head off? Jeez!

Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

Not retroactively... Very few (if any) laws are retroactive.

No, after the law passes, if you are then born in the US but neither parent is a US citizen, then neither are you.

Perfectly fair. Lots of other countries do it that way and you don't hear non-stop whining about it.

Wouldn't the 14th amendment interfere with your cunning plan?

The article is also full of "estimates", "no way to be sure", "does not know", etc., etc.

FAIL

Katie98_KT:
um, you realize that unemployment is really low in this country right (as a historical statistical measure), and that the big problem is underemployment- americans working for minimum wage with more skills.
so, no, taking away a minimum wage worker and replacing them with an american would just make it worse.


Your desire for cheap Slave Labor in no way supersedes American immigration law.

40oz_A_Knight: the United States is not and shouldn't be the world's handyman/nurse/sugar daddy.

Even when it has assumed that role voluntarily (at least where it sees direct benefit... read as "procurement of natural resources" and the proselytizing of democracy, something we don't do very well ourselves)?

Blinxs: Giblet: Blinxs: Giblet: Katie98_KT: Giblet: The second-gen illegals are another matter.

*blinks*

Oh yeah. I'm also for removing the birthright citizen clause.

Did you have to blink my fool head off? Jeez!

Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

Not retroactively... Very few (if any) laws are retroactive.

No, after the law passes, if you are then born in the US but neither parent is a US citizen, then neither are you.

Perfectly fair. Lots of other countries do it that way and you don't hear non-stop whining about it.

Your laws is enacted and then two children are born. Chris's parents were citizens so he automatically got citizenship. Jason's parents were immigrants and he dosen't get citizenship. So Jason is now a second-class person in this country, even though he agrees with the principles of the country. All cause he lost the cosmic lottery and he came out of the wrong crotch.

Life is rough and unfair in so many ways. I should have been born to affluence.

Blinxs: Giblet: Blinxs: Giblet: Katie98_KT: Giblet: The second-gen illegals are another matter.

*blinks*

Oh yeah. I'm also for removing the birthright citizen clause.

Did you have to blink my fool head off? Jeez!

Dumbest idea ever! What of the millions of Americans today that were born in American but their parents were immigrants? Should I cause my mom was an immigrant not have citizenship? Why do the previous generations of immigrants (Germans, Italians, Irish etc) get free passes but now you want to close the gates for future citizens?

Not retroactively... Very few (if any) laws are retroactive.

No, after the law passes, if you are then born in the US but neither parent is a US citizen, then neither are you.

Perfectly fair. Lots of other countries do it that way and you don't hear non-stop whining about it.

Your laws is enacted and then two children are born. Chris's parents were citizens so he automatically got citizenship. Jason's parents were immigrants and he dosen't get citizenship. So Jason is now a second-class person in this country, even though he agrees with the principles of the country. All cause he lost the cosmic lottery and he came out of the wrong crotch.

All of life is about the "cosmic lottery', champ.

Weaver95: See, that's the catch. Illegals are here 'illegally'. As in 'breaking the law'. Hence the term - illegal. So if you've got someone breaking the law, you enforce the law. If you don't like it, you can change it. In fact, I encourage people to become more heavily involved in our legal process. Such activity cannot come to bad ends no matter what else happens. But you don't get to ignore a law just because you don't like it. By all means - work to change it if you feel you must. But don't ignore it.

I agree with you on this. I was only responding to the other ideas.

LOGICAL_PSYCHO: You are an idiot, those babies have parents to support them.

No, you're the idiot. You think immigrants can't support themselves? Painting immigrants with the broad brush you have is as idiotic as doing the same with babies.

Do any of you actually live in predominantly Hispanic communities? I do. It really isn't very pretty.

I have watched a once-thriving community degrade into a 3rd world shiathole full of litter and check-into-cash huts. There is a taquito trailer at every gas station.

Oh well... who cares about the standard of my child's education or my property value. Just as long as some illegals can taste that American pie, I'm very content with the degradation of my own standard of living.

In regards to the article, they certainly do contribute to this economy. They help to barely keep us afloat after the politicians succeed in squandering our hard earned money. We don't need more money generation in this country - we need better fiscal handling. Instead of kicking invaders out, how about we first tar and feather politicians that have abused and misused the American trust?

LOGICAL_PSYCHO: You are an idiot, those babies have parents to support them.
Are you suggesting that you would take an immigrant to raise?
Please find somewhere else to troll moran.

Agreed, babies do have parents who support them. What you are ignoring is that immigrants for the most part come here to work, and use most of their income to pay for rent, food, and other services like telephone, etc. in addition to paying taxes through their fake ssn's that means that they also support themselves on the whole far more than you make it out to be. Without them spending on all these things, we would have less consumers in our economy, meaning less money spent overall, and more business facing cutbacks and lack of profits in the long run.