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(International Education)   The hospital that let a man out into the snowstorm to his ultimate death can't be held responsible for the hypothermia that was partially the cause, but the meperidine, normeperidine, trazodone, fentanyl, and norfentanyl may have helped   (bangornews.com) divider line 66
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5841 clicks; posted to Main » on 03 Apr 2008 at 9:13 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-04-03 07:52:08 AM  
Any doctor that would release a man on his own into a snowstorm with that many drugs in his system should lose his license in the least.
That's way beyond stopping a man in his right mind from leaving. Negligent criminal charges should be forthcoming.
 
2008-04-03 07:59:22 AM  
Asked whether Emery still would have died if weather conditions were not a factor, Ferland said there was no way to determine that. Additionally, he said, there was no way of knowing whether Emery could have survived the cold overnight hours if the drugs had not been in his body.

Just a hunch, but I doubt that he would have stepped foot outside the door if he hadn't been so whacked out on opiates.
 
2008-04-03 08:08:23 AM  
I didn't finish the article because I got bored w/it. So, did this guy release himself, then?
 
2008-04-03 08:15:47 AM  
This happens all the time in Canada.

/... wait, no it doesn't.
 
2008-04-03 08:16:48 AM  
LaChanz: Any doctor that would release a man on his own into a snowstorm with that many drugs in his system should lose his license in the least.

That's way beyond stopping a man in his right mind from leaving. Negligent criminal charges should be forthcoming.


With all due respect, he was "released against a doctor's advice" (FTA).

There's very little we can do if a person decides to sign themselves out AMA (Against Medical Advice). It's part of what's know as the Patient's Bill of Rights - we can't hold you unless you're a threat to yourself or others. Even then, it's not that simple. The article lists the drugs, but doesn't mention the levels found in his system. Looking at them, it may well be that this person suffered chronic pain and wanted to leave after he got his shot of Demerol from the Emergency Dept. - a very, very common occurrence.

As unfortunate as this is, please don't fault the medical staff until there's more information. Believe it or not, the vast majority of us truly do give a damn.
 
2008-04-03 08:44:54 AM  
It's not like he stepped out of the hospital and into a taxicab or the middle of a bustling city. He would not have had to walk far to get himself into a snowbank, that's a pretty rural area. (it's about 3 miles from a house I bought down there)

Do they not give you that hospital-escort-out when you sign yourself out AMA? (I'm asking because I don't know)

He was a grown man of course, but hopped up on all kinds of stuff wandering out into the woods? You'd think someone might have noticed, just out of compassion.
 
2008-04-03 08:46:24 AM  
He left AMA and if they detained him then there would be some kind of unlawful detainment charge. Many people get their drug fix and then leave. Dumbasses usually do dumbass things. This time it killed him.
 
2008-04-03 09:18:37 AM  
That's a pretty fair bunch o' drugs.
 
2008-04-03 09:19:27 AM  
double oops...
 
2008-04-03 09:19:37 AM  
This happens all the time in Canada.

/... wait, no it doesn't.


Only because it'd be spring by the time the doctor sees you.
 
2008-04-03 09:19:47 AM  
Exactly. If you go against our advice, that is your right. MANY people are on drugs like Fentanyl and Demerol chronically, drug seekers and other types come to the hospital for their fix and leave after they get what they want - whether or not we feel they need more treatment.

This family and this guy are the first ones to sue if we were to detain him against his will.

Don't worry - any lawsuit money they win will be passed on to you, the patient. So all of you always blaming the hospital and doctors first will be glad to shell out the extra cash, it's not like the insurance company or hospital takes the hit - in the end it's always the innocent consumer that gets shafted.
 
2008-04-03 09:21:47 AM  

FTA:

The monthlong investigation concluded in February with CMS submitting a "statement of deficiencies" to the hospital indicating, among other things, that staff failed to meet the needs of the patient.

Monthlong? What did they do after the first 30 minutes?
 
2008-04-03 09:29:15 AM  
Fr._Peter_Fitznuggly: FTA:
The monthlong investigation concluded in February with CMS submitting a "statement of deficiencies" to the hospital indicating, among other things, that staff failed to meet the needs of the patient.

Monthlong? What did they do after the first 30 minutes?


Simple...Watched reruns of Scrubs, ate pastries and made fun of really fat people!
 
2008-04-03 09:32:41 AM  
normeperidine, trazodone, fentanyl, and norfentanyl

And he was cheeseing his F**king balls off.
 
2008-04-03 09:42:38 AM  
I'm unfamiliar with an ulitmate death.
 
2008-04-03 09:43:23 AM  
The hospital that let a man out into the snowstorm to his ulitmate death

As opposed to his penultimate death? Boo, subby! Get a dictionary.
 
2008-04-03 09:45:22 AM  
0MGWTFBBQ: I'm unfamiliar with an ulitmate death.

Oh, yeah, he misspelled it, too. You can't find the definition of a word that you can't spell.
 
2008-04-03 09:47:41 AM  
The Stealth Hippopotamus: normeperidine, trazodone, fentanyl, and norfentanyl

And he was cheeseing his F**king balls off.


Maybe he was just getting high on life- really farking high on life
 
2008-04-03 09:48:40 AM  
haha....poor guy. i'm sure he would have prefered a less than ultimate death.

Can i reccomend, perhaps, an insignificant death?

/subby meant "untimely", I'm sure...
 
2008-04-03 09:50:30 AM  
The doctors were all too busy with hi-jinx and inner monologue.

Wait, someone already pulled the Scrubs reference.

I'll just pretend that I was the first, and check the thread every fifteen minutes for someone to reply to me with 'FTW! Huzzah!'

/work is slow
 
2008-04-03 09:53:27 AM  
-----------------
Richard Saunders 2008-04-03 08:16:48 AM

As unfortunate as this is, please don't fault the medical staff until there's more information. Believe it or not, the vast majority of us truly do give a damn.
----------------------

Medical staff are a different animal from administrative staff. Administrative staff usually couldn't give less than a flying fark about anything other than how slowly and incompetantly they can do their job. The administrative staff at the local hospital here won't answer their phones. That is, untill I got hold of the business office, and reamed them out because they won't answer their phones. I also asked them if it would help if I changed my name to Hernandez in order to get quicker service, and free care, but that's another ball of wax.
 
2008-04-03 10:01:14 AM  
subby:ulitmate death

You lit, mate?
 
2008-04-03 10:01:24 AM  
Richard Saunders: It's part of what's know as the Patient's Bill of Rights - we can't hold you unless you're a threat to yourself or others.
Anyone hopped up on opiates 80 times stronger than morphine, who wants to walk out into a snowstorm without coat or proper shoes, is a pretty clear danger to himself.

Fail
 
2008-04-03 10:05:53 AM  
I can only hope that I live out my years in peace and solitude, only to culminate into a fiery violent spectacle that astounds the audience members sharing my intimate relationship with a complimentary cocktail of painkillers, lasting just as long as necessary to obliterate my remains and all traces of my existence, to which I can confidently proclaim post-mortem that I had what was truly an ultimate death.
 
2008-04-03 10:06:56 AM  
He was released AMA, so the hospital, by law, couldn't hold him, right?
 
2008-04-03 10:23:16 AM  
Grass Hopper: Richard Saunders: It's part of what's know as the Patient's Bill of Rights - we can't hold you unless you're a threat to yourself or others.
Anyone hopped up on opiates 80 times stronger than morphine, who wants to walk out into a snowstorm without coat or proper shoes, is a pretty clear danger to himself.

Fail


Psst. "Had (medication X) in his system" != "hopped up to the gills on (medication X)".
 
2008-04-03 10:26:54 AM  
Fentanyl HCI™

Because morphine is for girly boys.


/cant believe anyone could be on anything in addition to fentanyl.
//1 fentanyl patch can kill the most seasoned heroin junkie.
///was this guy a late stage terminal cancer patient, or what?

www.nycomed.com
strong stuff.
 
2008-04-03 10:29:29 AM  
Ultimate death?

www.thespinningimage.co.uk
 
2008-04-03 10:30:35 AM  
John Dewey: Only because it'd be spring by the time the doctor sees you.

Not from my experience. My dad fell and broke his hip last Monday. He had a pin put in via surgery within six hours of the ambulance dropping him off. It cost me a total of $12.00 in parking.

... but go on believing in fallacies.
 
2008-04-03 10:31:23 AM  
Richard Saunders: As unfortunate as this is, please don't fault the medical staff until there's more information. Believe it or not, the vast majority of us truly do give a damn.

Sorry to say, I don't believe it. When I went to the hospital with a nasty case of gastroenteritis (it can kill you if you live alone, you know), as soon as I was stable they practically threw me out of there. I had no nearby relatives so the best I could do was burn karma and call a friend 20 miles away to pick me up. The nurse demanded I call him again with her in the room to make sure I was leaving. Oh, and they treated him like shiat too.

In another nasty case of the flu (again, I live alone so it's hospital or death), they treated me so badly I left the hospital in worse shape than when I went in.

My twin sister had to go to the hospital recently because she was hit by a car, breaking her leg just above the ankle and tearing a ligament. They did operate on her but released her without ANY instructions on how to care for the leg. She had to go on-line to support forums to learn just WTF to do with the cast-bound leg.

But nothing compares to how they treated my friend. His lung was punctured and he checked into ER. They all stood around wasting time, neglecting him for hours. Eventually his friend (I wasn't there) lost patience, raised hell and made them check him out. At this point they had wasted so much time doing nothing the deflated lung was putting pressure on his heart and he required emergency surgery. My friend was minutes from death, for no other reason than they were just going to ignore him in the ER until he died.

Given my experience, I damn well believe they threw him out into the cold to die. The way they treat me and everyone I know is too consistent to believe otherwise.

No, sorry, I don't believe for a moment any medical staff gives a damn. I've tangled with medical "professionals" more times than I care to count, and with few exceptions they're among the nastiest, most uncaring and rudest assholes I meet. I guess the "frequent fliers" have something to do with it but that's no reason to take out your frustrations on the polite patients.
 
2008-04-03 10:31:24 AM  
Geotpf: He was released AMA, so the hospital, by law, couldn't hold him, right?

He released himself. And the hospital can't hold you against your will.
 
2008-04-03 10:43:50 AM  
img220.imageshack.us
 
2008-04-03 10:46:01 AM  
dragonchild: Richard Saunders: As unfortunate as this is, please don't fault the medical staff until there's more information. Believe it or not, the vast majority of us truly do give a damn.

Sorry to say, I don't believe it. When I went to the hospital with a nasty case of gastroenteritis (it can kill you if you live alone, you know), as soon as I was stable they practically threw me out of there. I had no nearby relatives so the best I could do was burn karma and call a friend 20 miles away to pick me up. The nurse demanded I call him again with her in the room to make sure I was leaving. Oh, and they treated him like shiat too.

In another nasty case of the flu (again, I live alone so it's hospital or death), they treated me so badly I left the hospital in worse shape than when I went in.

My twin sister had to go to the hospital recently because she was hit by a car, breaking her leg just above the ankle and tearing a ligament. They did operate on her but released her without ANY instructions on how to care for the leg. She had to go on-line to support forums to learn just WTF to do with the cast-bound leg.

But nothing compares to how they treated my friend. His lung was punctured and he checked into ER. They all stood around wasting time, neglecting him for hours. Eventually his friend (I wasn't there) lost patience, raised hell and made them check him out. At this point they had wasted so much time doing nothing the deflated lung was putting pressure on his heart and he required emergency surgery. My friend was minutes from death, for no other reason than they were just going to ignore him in the ER until he died.

Given my experience, I damn well believe they threw him out into the cold to die. The way they treat me and everyone I know is too consistent to believe otherwise.

No, sorry, I don't believe for a moment any medical staff gives a damn. I've tangled with medical "professionals" more times than I care to count, and with few exceptions they're among the nastiest, most uncaring and rudest assholes I meet. I guess the "frequent fliers" have something to do with it but that's no reason to take out your frustrations on the polite patients.


Sorry to say, you're a farking moron. The guy left AMA. AGAINST MEDICAL ADVICE, meaning the doctor's told him he was not fit to leave. Noone threw him out the door. Do you see how I explained that to you 3 times? That's because you're retarded. Do you know how I'm sure you're retarded?

Interesting to know that failing to be coddled because you have the farking flu (gastroenteritis, an upset stomach, which can kill you in much the same way as a headache can kill you) makes you an expert on standards of care. Look at the geralizations you make, not only are you retarded, but you're an asshole too. I don't blame them for giving you some phengran, IV fluids, and booting your ass out the door.
 
2008-04-03 10:47:12 AM  
dragonchild:

No, sorry, I don't believe for a moment any medical staff gives a damn. I've tangled with medical "professionals" more times than I care to count, and with few exceptions they're among the nastiest, most uncaring and rudest assholes I meet. I guess the "frequent fliers" have something to do with it but that's no reason to take out your frustrations on the polite patients.

...and in which group would you place yourself, then?
 
2008-04-03 10:50:14 AM  
OlafTheBent

It was just a joke. A cheap, not really funny and easy one, but just a joke.
 
2008-04-03 10:56:44 AM  
OlafTheBent: Not from my experience. My dad fell and broke his hip last Monday. He had a pin put in via surgery within six hours of the ambulance dropping him off. It cost me a total of $12.00 in parking. ... but go on believing in fallacies.

Ah, Canada. That makes sense. Now, John Dewey and OlafTheBent, here's how it works in America.

I'm suffering from bronchitis that spread to my sinuses after the first round of antibiotics (prescribed by an NP) failed. (For the record, I'm otherwise healthy and have insurance.) By the time the doc will see me I'll have been sick for two months. The problem with this is that if you have acute bronchitis for that long, there's an increased risk it becomes chronic = lifelong. Both my father and aunt have chronic bronchitis.

What could be fixed in a simple examination & prescription if I was properly medicated the first damn time has dragged on for two months and now has the danger of long-term damage. Oh, and that's me hitting the fast-forward button by going around insurance-mandated GP referral (risking out-of-pocket payment). If the industry had their way, it would've been three months before a specialist took one look at me. That is a very, very stupid way to manage care: Ignore your otherwise-healthy patients until they're permanently crippled. The country where it takes 'til spring for a doctor to see you for an illness you got in winter is America, not Canada.

Also note my other post. Just getting in front of a doctor doesn't mean you're in the clear, not by a long shot. Pretty much the only reason I'm open to single-payer is that you can't possibly run a "health care" system worse if you tried.
 
2008-04-03 10:57:59 AM  
I don't understand any of those drugs, but the thought makes my head spin itself.
 
2008-04-03 10:58:31 AM  
Normeperidine and norfentanyl are the metabolites of the parent drugs. These are what is left over after the liver metabolizes fentanyl and meperidine. And WTF was this cat doing on those drugs anyway? What were his medical conditions which needed this level of intervention? I seriously, seriously doubt the hospital had given them to him. Calais, ME is notorious for the number of opiate addicts.
 
2008-04-03 11:05:43 AM  
My ultimate death was definately my least favorite. But my antipenultimate death was kind of fun.
 
2008-04-03 11:07:45 AM  
Pope Schizoid XIV: cat

fentanyl is prescribed to terminal cancer patients and others that have been on morphine for so long that they are resistant to it.

cant imagine how this cocktail could possibly be prescribed to a patient by a doctor unless it was a hotshot (dosage meant to kill)
 
2008-04-03 11:16:21 AM  
dragonchild

Once the US insurance companies start realizing that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure...hell, once the US ppl start realizing that, then we have a chance of turning our health care system around.

Or once they realize the point is to keep people healthy rather then make money. Either one, really.

/I'm sorry for your situation. I've suffered with recurring bronchitis. It blows monkey balls. And that's being kind.
 
2008-04-03 11:16:23 AM  
This is obvious trolling but others are saying similar crap so I'll reply in general:

Bender The Offender: The guy left AMA. AGAINST MEDICAL ADVICE, meaning the doctor's told him he was not fit to leave.

Read Grass Hopper's post. As Richard Saunders said, medical staff "can't hold you unless you're a threat to yourself or others". Well, the doctor (fark the MD, common sense is enough) considered him unfit to leave and, surprise surprise, he died. He was so disoriented he was going to enter a snowstorm without proper clothing. So by your own logic, and Richard's, the hospital was well within its power to NOT release him. They did it anyway and now are hiding behind the classic "our hands were tied" excuse.

Bender The Offender: gastroenteritis, an upset stomach, which can kill you in much the same way as a headache can kill you

Gastroenteritis is an infection, and like any infection, there are varying degrees of severity. Having witnessed my condition, the paramedics did agree that making the 911 call was the right decision.
 
2008-04-03 11:18:40 AM  
I've taken meperidine, trazodone, and fentanyl at different times for different reasons. Any ONE of them knocks me out cold for hours. Anyone who could take all of these at once must have a serious tolerance.
 
2008-04-03 11:39:07 AM  
Pope Schizoid XIV: Normeperidine and norfentanyl are the metabolites of the parent drugs. These are what is left over after the liver metabolizes fentanyl and meperidine. And WTF was this cat doing on those drugs anyway? What were his medical conditions which needed this level of intervention? I seriously, seriously doubt the hospital had given them to him. Calais, ME is notorious for the number of opiate addicts.

Got sidetracked during posting. To continue: Calais, ME is notorious for the number of opiate addicts of all ages per capita, but this case is difficult to make any judgment as the given information is incomplete.
As an aside, in Maine, a facility typically has the resposibility to involuntarily commit a person who is a danger to themselves/others including danger due to self-neglect due to mental incompetence. I've treated some people blue-papered (Involuntarily committed) with schizophrenia who would have died from exposure because they were so mentally impaired that they could not meet even basic safety needs.
Was this person mentally impaired to this degree? Was he just pissed that the hospital wouldn't give him opiates and walked out this way as kind of a "fark you" to the hospital? Who knows?
 
2008-04-03 11:41:45 AM  
LaChanz: Any doctor that would release a man on his own into a snowstorm with that many drugs in his system should lose his license in the least.
That's way beyond stopping a man in his right mind from leaving. Negligent criminal charges should be forthcoming.


if a man wants to leave drugged up into a snowstorm, he's a danger to himself which is criteria for committment.

strap that sucker to a bed an be done with it.
 
2008-04-03 11:47:15 AM  
dragonchild: I guess the "frequent fliers" have something to do with it but that's no reason to take out your frustrations on the polite patients.

docmattic: ...and in which group would you place yourself, then?

Heh, well, I could say my smile warms the hearts of passersby and when I talk the kittens come flocking to my melodious voice, but c'mon, this is Fark. I can't claim "I'm a decent enough fella" and expect anyone to believe me. For what it's worth, I was in and out of consciousness in the hospital, but I remember apologizing to everyone I met for causing them trouble.

I'll also admit my sister can be. . . abrasive. The two friends I mentioned, though (the one who picked me up and the one who almost died) are salt of the earth. They never cause trouble so anyone who treats them badly is unquestionably an asshole. In fact, Mr. Punctured Lung was neglected because he was too polite. They're apparently more accustomed to irate patients raising a ruckus, whereas he patiently waited for them to wait for him to die.

That makes sense in terms of, "Oh, I get it now, the frequent fliers," but in terms of professionalism it's flat-out unacceptable.
 
2008-04-03 11:50:09 AM  
dragonchild:
Bender The Offender: The guy left AMA. AGAINST MEDICAL ADVICE, meaning the doctor's told him he was not fit to leave.

Read Grass Hopper's post. As Richard Saunders said, medical staff "can't hold you unless you're a threat to yourself or others". Well, the doctor (fark the MD, common sense is enough) considered him unfit to leave and, surprise surprise, he died. He was so disoriented he was going to enter a snowstorm without proper clothing. So by your own logic, and Richard's, the hospital was well within its power to NOT release him. They did it anyway and now are hiding behind the classic "our hands were tied" excuse.


Your logic is astounding, in much the same way as watching a monkey masturbate with his own excrement. Clearly, you have no understanding whatsoever of the patient's rights, or "against medical advice". By my logic, a hospital cannot force a patient to remain unless they are an immediate threat to themselves or others as defined by very narrow parameters. A chronic pain suffer, someone our of recovery after a same day procedure or an opiate abuser (this guy was one or the other with fentanyl in his system) does not meet that criteria if they decide to leave AMA.

Bender The Offender: gastroenteritis, an upset stomach, which can kill you in much the same way as a headache can kill you

Gastroenteritis is an infection, and like any infection, there are varying degrees of severity. Having witnessed my condition, the paramedics did agree that making the 911 call was the right decision.


A viral infection (which influenza happens to be) is... wait for it... an infection. There is absolutely no way whatsoever for a paramedic to diagnose you with gastroenteritis. I'm sure you were boohooing like a big baby and they were absolutely right in transporting you, you could've had peritonitis or appendicitis, but you didn't. You had Gastroenteritis... Which is a catchall diagnosis for abdominal pain. So, yeah, not impressed in the least.
 
2008-04-03 11:56:45 AM  
Five Minute Standup: The hospital that let a man out into the snowstorm to his ulitmate death

As opposed to his penultimate death? Boo, subby! Get a dictionary.


Came here to ensure that the phrase "penultimate death" had been asserted . . . leaving satisfied.
 
2008-04-03 11:57:26 AM  
meh,
You "doctors" don't know what you are talking about.
There is no why your years of study and experience, backed up by the million of hours of research and case law could in any possible way be more informed than the opinion I just pulled out of my ass 45 seconds ago based on the half dozen times I have had contact with the medical/industrial complex.
 
2008-04-03 11:58:23 AM  
Bender The Offender: snip

2/10, and only that high because "monkey masturbate with his own excrement" was mildly amusing.
 
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