ChopSueyKS: I'm trying to be nice. I had spoken to her in a previous thread about joining the IDF and things seemed pretty kosher then.

Kosher! I see what you did there.

EsteeFlwrPot cannot give accurate (or even hypothetically logical) answers to questions, so she bows out. It's a shame, she could learn a lot from listening, rather than reiterating.

ChopSueyKS I am getting my degree from Florida State University but right now I am studying at Tel Aviv University

ChopSueyKS: You ever read the Koran or study Islamic thought? They don't like us because the West has been farking up their region for years. It has nothing to do with religion or referencing out of context Koran references.

Really?

What do you say to the clerics who say otherwise?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html and this is one of many. There are countless stories like this. Take a look at MEMRI. I am not saying all muslims think like this but you are blind if you think people like this don't exist. I used to live in Egypt and Indonesia (muslims who have nothing to do with that region). I met many otherwise educated people who had irrational hatred for Jews. Where else but their religion did they learn this? Do I have to point out the passages? Put killing all the jews into context for me, please.

moepingaround: ChopSueyKS I am getting my degree from Florida State University but right now I am studying at Tel Aviv University

Undergrad or graduate?

/suddenly has ideas

Gregory F. Stuart: Jon Snow: ChopSueyKS: I'm view myself as a pretty strong Zionist...and your comments make me rather uneasy.

"Rather uneasy"?

She's a blatant, unrepentant bigot:

EsteeFlwrPot: Palestinians have no value for human life, be it their own, their families or strangers

Hard to believe people like Degree Absolute can stick up for statements like that, isn't it?

I agree with her to a point. The driving force behind the entire Palestinian movement has been killing and death.

The sum total of the last 60 years for the Palestinians amounts to:

Suicide bombers, using non-combatants as human shields, firing rockets from densely populated areas into Israeli towns, filming fake funerals, murdering the spirt of the Olympic games, blowing up buses, discos, pizza parlors, religious ceremonies at Hotels, kidnapping Westerners, lynch mobs, rock throwing, stabbings, playing the victim on the international stage while not-so-secretly inciting your people to violence.

It is not a record to be proud of and if I were a Palestinian I would be pushing other Palestinians toward a change of tactics.

the_american_president said:

Here's a hint to the Palestinians: when you lose a war, you don't get any do-overs. (However much the UN would like to assure you otherwise.)

You're not a student of history, I see.

The French lost against the Germans in the late 1800s in the Franco-Prussian War, and demanded a do-over.

The French lost AGAIN in 1918 during the first do-over, and demanded a second do-over.

The Germans lost the second do-over in 1945.

At that point, both the French and Germans realized that the escalating death tolls from each subsequent do-over would eventually leave most of Europe sterilized of all life by the third or fourth do-over.

So they each re-thought about how they would conduct relations with their neighbors/rivals.

Now, as partners in the European Union, they peacfully co-exist, and *either* side even thinking about asking for a do-over is pretty much unthinkable.

There's a lesson to be learned somewhere in there.

liam76
haha that's good but the news isn't always the best way to learn about religion.. anyway, the Qur'an recognizes jewish and christian prophets but only to show what will happen to muslims when they do not obey allah. According to the Qur'an, when the Qur'an was revealed the moses, he did not accept it and therefor it was taken away and the jews were scattered about the world. Same thing happened with Jesus and christians. However, the Jews have returned to Israel. the Muslims think that the Jews are disobeying allah by living together in the land of cana'an/palestine/israel

Um... I should proof-read what I write better.

Oh well, I'm pretty sure that no one will spot my little historical error in there.

;)

nyil
undergrad

what ideas

liam76: ChopSueyKS: You ever read the Koran or study Islamic thought? They don't like us because the West has been farking up their region for years. It has nothing to do with religion or referencing out of context Koran references.

Really?

What do you say to the clerics who say otherwise?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,344409,00.html and this is one of many. There are countless stories like this. Take a look at MEMRI. I am not saying all muslims think like this but you are blind if you think people like this don't exist. I used to live in Egypt and Indonesia (muslims who have nothing to do with that region). I met many otherwise educated people who had irrational hatred for Jews. Where else but their religion did they learn this? Do I have to point out the passages? Put killing all the jews into context for me, please.

Religion has been twisted around into a tool to further nationalist and racist agendas. It was nationalism and being angry with Western meddling that came first and the religious justification came second.

There have been many people from all over who have hated the Jews...they didn't need religious justification for it. Your friends can be anti-Jewish without having to be strong Muslims and not all strong Muslim are anti-Jewish.

Same thing with Christianity. Christianity is not inherently anti-Muslim, but people have twisted it around for their own personal agendas.

ChopSueyKS
You are taking a minority within the population and claiming they represent everyone. It's like saying "there are Jews in the United States, so the entire country is Jewish!". It doesn't work that way.

Also, Jihad can be peaceful. It's an internal struggle against yourself that has been taken out of context. It's supposed to be spiritual, peaceful. For most people it still is.

I completely understand what youre saying, but then how do you feel when you see what they are doing to the Jews in Israel? Do you just excuse it because of the nice few? Let them live there because some of them are nice, meanwhile the rest of them are firing rockets into Israel and attacking civilians waiting for buses? Is it ok that they kidnap Jews in cars, slaughter them and leave their bodies on the streets? To me its not ok and they need to leave.

SnoreCriminal: Technically, I'm not trolling. I'm just calling racists, racists. Like Gregory F(ellates Hamas) Stuart.

That would be such a more creative Fark Handle than Gregory F. Stuart. I mean, c'mon. How farking pretentious do you have to be not only to use your real name, but to add your middle initial? Why not The Illustrious Gregory F. Stuart, esquire? At least that would take some effort.

EsteeFlwrPot: ChopSueyKS
You are taking a minority within the population and claiming they represent everyone. It's like saying "there are Jews in the United States, so the entire country is Jewish!". It doesn't work that way.

Also, Jihad can be peaceful. It's an internal struggle against yourself that has been taken out of context. It's supposed to be spiritual, peaceful. For most people it still is.

I completely understand what youre saying, but then how do you feel when you see what they are doing to the Jews in Israel? Do you just excuse it because of the nice few? Let them live there because some of them are nice, meanwhile the rest of them are firing rockets into Israel and attacking civilians waiting for buses? Is it ok that they kidnap Jews in cars, slaughter them and leave their bodies on the streets? To me its not ok and they need to leave.

Would that not be collective punishment though?

liam76
If they stopped lobbing rockets for a while they would find an economic boom by trading with Israel (like they were having prior to the second intafada).

Palestinians lobbing rockets doesn't impact their economy. The Israeli reaction does.


Relatively Obscure
Carthago delenda est!

Three most hated people in history: 1) Stalin. 2) Hitler. 3) Cato the Elder.


OttoDog
fark the Arabs and the "Palestinians".

so is this the part where we re-post the parts of the Geneva Conventions that talk about collective punishment? Or just facepalms?


JDAT
Hamas trying to make Palestine a recognized state is like PETA trying to run a cattle ranch.

True. So it's pretty stupid of Israel to legitimize Hamas by overreacting to their every action.


liam76
this has got to be one of the dumber comments I have ever seen on fark.
...
the fact is that their measures worked.

That flies in the face of statements from every other Israel-apologist who whinges about the rockets from Gaza.


baraqel
what is required is that the Palestinian populace be integrated as citizens with equal rights within the Israeli Nation.

Good luck with that!


moepingaround
it's not for freedoms they like the way they live. they don't like jews and christians becasue they think that anyone who does not believe in Allah should be killed

This would mark the first time in history that such a thing has ever been true. I find the economic and nationalistic causes to be much more compelling.


baraqel
My Israeli friends always say; "Want to end the problems in Israel? Get rid of the Jewish settlers."

That's what pisses me off most about Tatsuma. He knows he's only making things worse.


ChopSueyKS
Additionally, one state would destroy the "Israel-ness" Israel. The same problem is being felt in the EU. France and England, etc, feel like their culture and their history is under attack if they are swallowed up in the EU. Israel doesn't want to loose their heritage and see it as just a Palestine rather than a joint state.

nationalism = retarded


Nocens
Who declared the 2nd Intafadah again? Why?

The Palestinians because they were/are being treated like shiat by Israel. The Second Intifada wasn't just a bunch of suicide bomb attacks, you know- there were marches and rallies all all that other non-violent stuff, too.
Any more stupid questions?



EsteeFlwrPot
I do think Palestinians should go back to the countries they came from.

That would be Palestine.

moepingaround: actually i go to school with muslims

in israel

and they haven't killed me

They're doing it wrong.

Degree Absolute:
It is not a record to be proud of and if I were a Palestinian I would be pushing other Palestinians toward a change of tactics.

There does exist a substantial grassroots movement toward peace and liberaism among Palestinians. I think that ultimately, the only way to stop the militants is by funding and supporting the non-militants, and encouraging economic development within Palestine, as well as jointly-owned Israeli/Palestinian businesses.

I would like to see a free, independent, democratic, semi-socialist Palestine right next door to a free, independent, democratic, semi-socialist Israel. Given time and sufficient resources, and with the radicals shut up by a wave of prosperity that makes the people prefer staying in watching TV to strapping bombs to themselves, the two could be good allies.

Nestea Plunge: Sounds reasonable. Too much to ask farking Israel for, though.

It's reasonable that he evaded the question of whether Hamas would still be dedicated to the destruction of Israel even after a pre-1967 border Palestinian state is established???


Reasonable would be agreeing that BOTH Israel and Palestine would be allowed to exist as states within the 1967 borders. You know full damn well Hamas isn't interested in that. His evasiveness basically meant "For starters, give us a 1967 border Palestine, after which we'll go after the rest."

Degree Absolute: I agree with her to a point. The driving force behind the entire Palestinian movement has been killing and death.

The sum total of the last 60 years for the Palestinians amounts to:

Suicide bombers, using non-combatants as human shields, firing rockets from densely populated areas into Israeli towns, filming fake funerals, murdering the spirt of the Olympic games, blowing up buses, discos, pizza parlors, religious ceremonies at Hotels, kidnapping Westerners, lynch mobs, rock throwing, stabbings, playing the victim on the international stage while not-so-secretly inciting your people to violence.

It is not a record to be proud of and if I were a Palestinian I would be pushing other Palestinians toward a change of tactics.

So, like her, you are taking the actions of the minority to form a negative opinion about the group as a whole?

moepingaround: nyil
undergrad

what ideas

How is the weather compared to Tampa area? Is it warm enough in Tel Aviv?

EsteeFlwrPot: I completely understand what youre saying, but then how do you feel when you see what they are doing to the Jews in Israel?

I feel outrage. But I know I need to direct that outrage to the perps and not the victims. Peaceful Palestinians are just as much a victim of Hamas and all has the Jews are.

Do you just excuse it because of the nice few?

No, but even if there is one kind person standing in Gaza, I find that raining fire down upon the city and destroying everything is the wrong thing to do.

Let them live there because some of them are nice, meanwhile the rest of them are firing rockets into Israel and attacking civilians waiting for buses?

We are capable of separating the two. If we attack the peaceful group, we will only create more enemies. But if we can put a missile into the backside of those who want to attack buses, we should.

Is it ok that they kidnap Jews in cars, slaughter them and leave their bodies on the streets?

Not all of them do this. Guilt by association is wrong.

To me its not ok and they need to leave.

Painting with a wide brush is pretty bad too.

RanDomino

This would mark the first time in history that such a thing has ever been true. I find the economic and nationalistic causes to be much more compelling.


Actually, that's not true. Islam grew because Muhammad found other believers and they conquered nations and killed people until he found more believers. Arab nationalism only emerged recently, perhaps in response to Zionism..

You know, I have an idea; get boxes of airsoft equipment and 40 acres in north Arizona. Get all the people in the flamewar to have a shootout with 2 teams, Israel & Palastine.

Make it the first Fark shootout party. I'll bring the cold beer, and finger food.

I'm curious what mrexcess, Nestea, Estee, or Liam's weapons of choice would be =D.

Gregory F. Stuart: Oh, I see, so the Palestinians just up and decided to start killing people one day? There wasn't anything that, you know, precipitated the violence?

I'll bite.

Jewish refugees fleeing Europe creating communities in modern day Israel. They were foreign, unwanted, and came very quickly. To get them to go away, they were attacked.

RanDomino-

On the 2nd intafadah:

Incorrect, want to play again?

nyil
How is the weather compared to Tampa area? Is it warm enough in Tel Aviv?
Interesting question I guess. Tampa is way warmer..
in tel aviv we had a cold winter but it is finally starting to get warm.

SirGunslinger: You know, I have an idea; get boxes of airsoft equipment and 40 acres in north Arizona. Get all the people in the flamewar to have a shootout with 2 teams, Israel & Palastine.

Make it the first Fark shootout party. I'll bring the cold beer, and finger food.

I'm curious what mrexcess, Nestea, Estee, or Liam's weapons of choice would be =D.

SnoreCriminal is my weapon of choice. He'll get the job done!

The Numbers: EsteeFlwrPot: ChopSueyKS
You are taking a minority within the population and claiming they represent everyone. It's like saying "there are Jews in the United States, so the entire country is Jewish!". It doesn't work that way.

Also, Jihad can be peaceful. It's an internal struggle against yourself that has been taken out of context. It's supposed to be spiritual, peaceful. For most people it still is.

I completely understand what youre saying, but then how do you feel when you see what they are doing to the Jews in Israel? Do you just excuse it because of the nice few? Let them live there because some of them are nice, meanwhile the rest of them are firing rockets into Israel and attacking civilians waiting for buses? Is it ok that they kidnap Jews in cars, slaughter them and leave their bodies on the streets? To me its not ok and they need to leave.

Would that not be collective punishment though?

Aren't the Palestinians also guilty of collective punishment? What are these rocket attacks if not collective punishment? Is using Peace as a bargining chip in an effort to extort land not reprehensible?

Explain to me how any other nation in the world would respond to an enemy like the Palestinians. There has not been another situation in modern history similar to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not ended in the genocide of one faction.

Thus far the one side which is supremely powerful and has the capability to commit genocide on the Palestinians has not. The other side is led by group whose charter clearly states that their goal is the destruction of Israel.

Now im just rambling, but farking hell people can you not see the difference here?

Nestea Plunge: vernonFL: Didn't Israel give this offer to Arafat, and he rejected it?

Arafat is dead, any deals made with him don't exist anymore.

Yeah, because, national leaders aren't expected to uphold the obligations their predecessors left.

[/sarcasm]

Um, that's not the way it works, genius. Nations generally need to avoid doing that as it ruins their diplomatic credibility, because negotiations with them are then utterly pointless if every new guy in office can say, "Oh I don't have to live up to that--that was before my time."

moepingaround:
Actually, that's not true. Islam grew because Muhammad found other believers and they conquered nations and killed people until he found more believers. Arab nationalism only emerged recently, perhaps in response to Zionism..

For the Palestinians, maybe. Even during the Ottoman Empire and the rise of the Arab identity the Arab resistance against Turkish influence would be the beginning of Arab nationalism, I'd argue.

moepingaround: nyil
How is the weather compared to Tampa area? Is it warm enough in Tel Aviv?
Interesting question I guess. Tampa is way warmer..
in tel aviv we had a cold winter but it is finally starting to get warm.

See, now there's the drawback when I think about living in other places. I like it hot. At least 80 degrees or I am chilled. This is the first place I ever lived where I feel warm enough (at least outdoors--Floridians CRANK the air conditioning).

barjockey
That would be such a more creative Fark Handle than Gregory F. Stuart.

So I take it you're not going to answer my question about how moving civilians to the front-line of enemy territory in an occupied war zone counts as "defense"?

nyil: See, now there's the drawback when I think about living in other places. I like it hot. At least 80 degrees or I am chilled. This is the first place I ever lived where I feel warm enough (at least outdoors--Floridians CRANK the air conditioning).

ok i didn't mean it was actually cold just colder than tampa.. and the mediterranean is better than the gulf of mexico.
are you living in florida

RanDomino-"Palestinians lobbing rockets doesn't impact their economy. The Israeli reaction does."

So if I lost my job for going to jail for murder it wouldn't be committing the murder that cost me my job, it would be the police thrrowing me in jail.

RanDomino-"That flies in the face of statements from every other Israel-apologist who whinges about the rockets from Gaza."

Rockets are bad, but suicide bombers and gunmen were worse. And who would have thought you had to be an apologist to excuse a country reacting negatively to thousands of rockets being fired at them.



ChopSueyKS-"Religion has been twisted around into a tool to further nationalist and racist agendas. It was nationalism and being angry with Western meddling that came first and the religious justification came second.

There have been many people from all over who have hated the Jews...they didn't need religious justification for it. Your friends can be anti-Jewish without having to be strong Muslims and not all strong Muslim are anti-Jewish."

The religious justification didn't come second. Jews have never had equal footing with muslims in muslim countries. There is a clear prescedant for this in the koran.

Religious justification wasn't always needed to hate the jews but few religious texts call for it like the koran. "'the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say, 'O servant of Allah, O Muslim, this is a Jew behind me, kill him"

Explain Al-taqiyya.

There are plenty of moderate muslims who toss outt hese parts of islam, but one of the cornerstones of islam is that you can't toss out what you want (from what I understand). All moderate muslims that I have had this conversation with get uncomfortable when you ask if these parts of the Koran are mistakes or don't matter. Until it becomes acceptabel for mainstream muslims to admit it was written by man and parts are wrong then it isn't the religion being twisted that is causing problems, it is the religion.

moepingaround: nyil: See, now there's the drawback when I think about living in other places. I like it hot. At least 80 degrees or I am chilled. This is the first place I ever lived where I feel warm enough (at least outdoors--Floridians CRANK the air conditioning).

ok i didn't mean it was actually cold just colder than tampa.. and the mediterranean is better than the gulf of mexico.
are you living in florida

Yes, in the Tampa area for about a year now.

EsteeFlwrPot
Oh I see... I guess I missed the part where strapping bombs on young children, beating women, killing people because of sexual preference and murduring students doing nothing but studying in school means they have a value for life. I guess Jihad is peaceful, according to you? I guess I missed the memo.

1) That's only a small amount of Palestinians 2) They wouldn't do it if it wasn't for the occupation.


ChopSueyKS
Also, Jihad can be peaceful. It's an internal struggle against yourself that has been taken out of context. It's supposed to be spiritual, peaceful. For most people it still is.

Yeah- the word translates as "struggle". That's why American Neo-cons like Dershowitz scream and wave their arms about the Arab translation of "Mein Kampf" being "(Arab word for 'my') Jihad".

At least this provides us with a good way to tell if someone knows what they're talking about.


liam76
What do you say to the clerics who say otherwise?

Of course they talk big. But words are cheap. No sizable proportion of any nation or ethnic group has ever exclusively (or even majorly) hated another "for their freedom". Economic envy? Sure, all the time- but that's something completely different, and it manifests as theft (raiding, piracy, conquest), employment, or competition. I mean, actually hating us for our freedom would be historically unprecedented, and I'm talking about 10,000 years here. People do things for economic and nationalistic reasons, and that's all.


moepingaround
the Muslims think that the Jews are disobeying allah by living together in the land of cana'an/palestine/israel

If Palestine had a viable economy, the reaction of the average young Palestinian male wouldn't be, "Grr, one more reason to hate Jews", it would be, "Well that's very interesting and I hope someone points that out to them, but if you'll excuse me I have to go to work for 100 hours so I can buy a fancy car".
Let me correct myself- people are motivated by economics, nationalism, and the desire for cool cars.

ChopSueyKS: moepingaround:
Actually, that's not true. Islam grew because Muhammad found other believers and they conquered nations and killed people until he found more believers. Arab nationalism only emerged recently, perhaps in response to Zionism..

For the Palestinians, maybe. Even during the Ottoman Empire and the rise of the Arab identity the Arab resistance against Turkish influence would be the beginning of Arab nationalism, I'd argue.

touche but the end of turkey in palestine and the beginning of zionism do coincide

nyil: moepingaround: nyil: See, now there's the drawback when I think about living in other places. I like it hot. At least 80 degrees or I am chilled. This is the first place I ever lived where I feel warm enough (at least outdoors--Floridians CRANK the air conditioning).

ok i didn't mean it was actually cold just colder than tampa.. and the mediterranean is better than the gulf of mexico.
are you living in florida

Yes, in the Tampa area for about a year now.

oh weird i thought you just looked on my profile thing to see where I was from. Tampa is nice i miss it sometimes

Jon Snow: Degree Absolute: I agree with her to a point. The driving force behind the entire Palestinian movement has been killing and death.

The sum total of the last 60 years for the Palestinians amounts to:

Suicide bombers, using non-combatants as human shields, firing rockets from densely populated areas into Israeli towns, filming fake funerals, murdering the spirt of the Olympic games, blowing up buses, discos, pizza parlors, religious ceremonies at Hotels, kidnapping Westerners, lynch mobs, rock throwing, stabbings, playing the victim on the international stage while not-so-secretly inciting your people to violence.

It is not a record to be proud of and if I were a Palestinian I would be pushing other Palestinians toward a change of tactics.

So, like her, you are taking the actions of the minority to form a negative opinion about the group as a whole?

See I would agree with you if for every suicide bombing perpetrated in Israel, there was a peace rally in Palestine condemning it. Sadly though this is not the case.

I do not doubt that a substantial portion of the Palestinian population dreams of peace. However, there is not a substantial portion of the Palestinian population doing anything to make this dream a reality. That is the major problem.

Also, the peace that Israelis dream of is far different from the peace that Palestinians dream of. This is another difficult problem.

SirGunslinger: I'm curious what mrexcess, Nestea, Estee, or Liam's weapons of choice would be =D

pneaumatic cow hammer, barring that I would take a pillow case stuffed with doorknobs.


Jon Snow: So, like her, you are taking the actions of the minority to form a negative opinion about the group as a whole?

You keep saying it is the actions of the minority, but the majority supported these actions in the election.

As Tatsuma pointed out in a recent study 84% of them said it was ok to go into a school where unarmed jews are studying and shoot them. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=120 5420730237

DragonFarked: mrexcess: DragonFarked
This is the legal answer and not the moral one.

It's also patently obvious that it's a tortured interpretation. It relies on the determination that the Palestinian territories are not "occupied", instead creating an entirely new legal doctrinal class of territory called "disputed" lands.

I'd also like to see some of your evidence that annexation of territory by warfare is legal, provided that the war is defensive. Not to Godwin, but every conqueror from Hitler on down has claimed that his actions were taken in defense. To my knowledge there is no such distinction in the law.

Then why has the PA not declared a Palestinian state?

mrexcess: OttoDog
fark the Arabs and the "Palestinians".

Amazing.

DragonFarked
Ahhh ok I have to prove my side in a way that is acceptable to you, but a blanket statement of "It's not defensive" requires nothing more.

Burden of proof is always on the positive claimant, because it is impossible to prove a universal negative. I can no more prove to you that there is no exception in the law for "defensive war" than I can prove to you that there is no alarm clock in orbit around the Sun.

You claimed that there was a legal exception to the rules against annexation of territory for defensive war... you bear the burden of showing proof of that claim.

My apologize for the completely unfounded and asinine statement of mine above.

Apology accepted with my gratitude. But I still want to know where you're getting the idea that the rules against territorial annexation by warfare have some exemption for "defensive war"... to my knowledge, there is no such exemption.

I know I'm going to get Lawyered to death for this answer but, it's in the wording of UN Security Council Resolution 242 that sets the precedent for gained territory in a defensive war. If Israel did not violate UN charter article 51, which they didn't, and Res 242 was intentionally worded as to not imply that ALL territories had to be given back....... you now have your legal basis for Defensively gained territory.
Let me say this again though
This is the Legal answer and not the moral one.
Res 242 was intended to bring peace to the region and establish clear borders. This it did not do and has been misread to support claims that Israel should retreat to pre67 borders.

All info was sourced from
un.org and camera.org

RanDomino: moepingaround
the Muslims think that the Jews are disobeying allah by living together in the land of cana'an/palestine/israel

If Palestine had a viable economy, the reaction of the average young Palestinian male wouldn't be, "Grr, one more reason to hate Jews", it would be, "Well that's very interesting and I hope someone points that out to them, but if you'll excuse me I have to go to work for 100 hours so I can buy a fancy car".
Let me correct myself- people are motivated by economics, nationalism, and the desire for cool cars.

This is not the United States. suicide bombers dont bomb other people so they can still their cars or wallets. They are killing for religion and land. Of cousre the fact that the lifestyle here is better than in Gaza/west bank has something to do with it but that is not the major issue here.

RanDomino:

sorry there was a lot of typos in there hope you can still understand what i meant oops

The Numbers: Would that not be collective punishment though?


(sigh) Once again:

If Israel tries to control its borders with security fences and checkpoints, that's called "collective punishment", and that's evil.

If Israel goes directly after the exact people who are firing the rockets and building the suicide bombs, that's called "targeted assassination", and that's evil.

If Israel goes after terror groups like Hezbollah - groups who explicitly wish to see Israel gone and Jews dead, and who incessantly launch missiles into Israeli towns - Israel is accused of promoting "aggressive war". They're accused of making the lives of Lebanese difficult. Not Hezbollah, who puts their rocket launchers inside civilian houses, but Israel, who goes after the rocket launchers. Then it's Israel who's accused of destroying the civilian homes. Meanwhile, the UN was specifically tasked to disarm Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. They haven't. And now Hezbollah has gotten new shipments of missiles from Iran, and is ready to do the same damn thing they did a year ago. When it happens, everyone will once again condemn Israel for fighting back.

Oh, also: everyone wants Israel to remove its citizens from the disputed territories. If you do this, then there will be peace. So Israel, on its own, goes in and ethnically cleanses Gaza of all Jews (and leaves the Palestinians valuable greenhouses that could help them jumpstart their economy, to boot!). As a result of Gaza being rendered Judenfrei, there are more missile attacks than ever coming from... Gaza.

So what, in your opinion, should Israel do? It seems that the suggested answer is that Israel will be condemned whenever it takes any actions whatsoever to protect its citizens, and that the proper response should be for Israel to do nothing and voluntarily allow itself to be destroyed.

ChopSueyKS
No, but even if there is one kind person standing in Gaza, I find that raining fire down upon the city and destroying everything is the wrong thing to do.

All I said was to move them out. I never mentioned killing them. Why the fark does everybody twist that? There is a difference. Stop farking confusing me saying we should MOVE them with me saying we should kill them all. fark.

liam76: Religious justification wasn't always needed to hate the jews but few religious texts call for it like the koran. "'the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say, 'O servant of Allah, O Muslim, this is a Jew behind me, kill him"

The "Jew" in question there is a member of the 70,000 that join the Islamic version of the anti-Christ in an end of days battle.

Hardly a stand in for the average Jew or Israeli, despite attempts from crackpot Imams and terrorists to suggest otherwise.

ChopSueyKS: I'll bite.

Jewish refugees fleeing Europe creating communities in modern day Israel. They were foreign, unwanted, and came very quickly. To get them to go away, they were attacked.

To be fair, there was some violence from the Zionists as well, some of it against the Palestinian Christians, not just the Muslims.

joshik72: The Numbers: Would that not be collective punishment though?


(sigh) Once again:

If Israel tries to control its borders with security fences and checkpoints, that's called "collective punishment", and that's evil.

If Israel goes directly after the exact people who are firing the rockets and building the suicide bombs, that's called "targeted assassination", and that's evil.

If Israel goes after terror groups like Hezbollah - groups who explicitly wish to see Israel gone and Jews dead, and who incessantly launch missiles into Israeli towns - Israel is accused of promoting "aggressive war". They're accused of making the lives of Lebanese difficult. Not Hezbollah, who puts their rocket launchers inside civilian houses, but Israel, who goes after the rocket launchers. Then it's Israel who's accused of destroying the civilian homes. Meanwhile, the UN was specifically tasked to disarm Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. They haven't. And now Hezbollah has gotten new shipments of missiles from Iran, and is ready to do the same damn thing they did a year ago. When it happens, everyone will once again condemn Israel for fighting back.

Oh, also: everyone wants Israel to remove its citizens from the disputed territories. If you do this, then there will be peace. So Israel, on its own, goes in and ethnically cleanses Gaza of all Jews (and leaves the Palestinians valuable greenhouses that could help them jumpstart their economy, to boot!). As a result of Gaza being rendered Judenfrei, there are more missile attacks than ever coming from... Gaza.

So what, in your opinion, should Israel do? It seems that the suggested answer is that Israel will be condemned whenever it takes any actions whatsoever to protect its citizens, and that the proper response should be for Israel to do nothing and voluntarily allow itself to be destroyed.

i agree

Degree Absolute
Explain to me how any other nation in the world would respond to an enemy like the Palestinians. There has not been another situation in modern history similar to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict that has not ended in the genocide of one faction.

Thus far the one side which is supremely powerful and has the capability to commit genocide on the Palestinians has not. The other side is led by group whose charter clearly states that their goal is the destruction of Israel.

Now im just rambling, but farking hell people can you not see the difference here?

This.