BoozePenguin: Commitment of God
Commitment to the Black Community
Commitment to the Black Family
Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

etc etc.

You think education, family and community are "black" "america" or "jewish" values?

I agree with you, but plenty have called it uniquely thier own, not just the black church.

Degree Absolute: This might not be as big a deal if people actually knew where Obama stood on the issues. Sadly, because he is so tight-lipped on policy, we have to look to those around him and those who have influenced him to learn more about his policy stances. Obama did this to himself by only offering rhetoric and no substance.

Are we back to this meme? It is going to be a long, frustrating time on Fark until we win in November.

All2morrowsparTs

Of course, and it's silly then too.

Again, i draw a distinction. I do believe that "american values" (of some sort or another) exist, i just don't think the biological bond people have with their family members is one of them ;)

FishingWithFredo: Thomas Sowell may be one of America's greatest thinkers. Go ahead - counter that fact and embarrass yourself.

...his ability to think is not in question. Many people that are terrific at thinking are consistently and terribly wrong.

If you mean his ability to reason or discern fact given certin criteria, his own published words tell that lie.

Stimutax67: is this dude for real? This is like a uncle tom caricature...

A very conservativly dressed older black man, must be an uncle tom.

I bet you are fine with assumptions like that, but if I called Cynthia Mckinney with her "african" hairdo a caricture of Aunt Jemiama I would be a racist.

BoozePenguin: You think education, family and community are "black" "america" or "jewish" values?

No but saying you are commited to "X" education, family and community is exclusionary and shouldn't be accepted by any group.

Lee Jackson Beauregard: Remember, boys and girls:

* "God damn America for treating its citizens as less than human" -- BAD.

* "God damn America for not hatesing them feelthy queers" -- GOOD.

I don't think anyone thinks the Phelps family is good. And Jerry Falwell died the night I watched Jesus Camp so he is moot.

liam76: All2morrowsparTs:
This is a straw man.

Go back and read the whole exchange. We were talking about people in the zombietime blog.

What are black values?

Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black
Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and
Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value
System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."


The church used to have them right ont he "about us" page but changed it when they started getting bad press, which inmho they deserved.

Thank you this is enlightening. I don't agree that these are uniquly Black values. I've seen many other groups have similar tenents.

I believe these have probably formed out of the 60's black liberation ideologies.

Obama was right when he said that both Blacks and whites need to rethink their views and have a discussion to form a united America not sepreated by race.

Liberal media bias [5] [6] [7] [8] [9]
judicial activism (while staunchly defending originalism) [10] [11] [12] [13] [14]
partial birth abortion [15]
minimum wage
socializing health care
affirmative action
government bureaucracy
Militant U.S. foreign policy
The Federal War on Drugs
Sowell is a supporter of free market and pro-growth economics. In a recent column he criticized as "socialism for the rich", certain policies which he claims benefit the wealthy at the expense of the poor. [16]
Sowell also favors decriminalization of drugs.[6]

doesn't seem too "terribly wrong" to me. I might disagree with some of it, but "terribly wrong"? Can you point to a source?

There is some truth to the complaint about Obama's positions and YES FOR DOG'S SAKE I READ HIS WEBSITE. I was just there today, trying to find out what he thinks/proposes about sex education -- not seeing anything there, but maybe I am not looking in the write place on the site. I looked under education and under health care.

Sometimes "reaching across the aisle" can come across as "a little vague on positions."

well i suppose i shoudl have prefaced that last post:

Sowell considers the following to be problematic issues in modern-day society

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell#Columns

liam76: No but saying you are commited to "X" education, family and community is exclusionary and shouldn't be accepted by any group.

Jews have done this for centuries and it has work out pretty well except when others get jealous of their success.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Thank you. I needed that!

I posted "write" instead of "right."

*blushes*

Degree Absolute: This might not be as big a deal if people actually knew where Obama stood on the issues. Sadly, because he is so tight-lipped on policy, we have to look to those around him and those who have influenced him to learn more about his policy stances. Obama did this to himself by only offering rhetoric and no substance.

/FACEPALM.
//Fark Block

Stimutax67: This is like a uncle tom caricature...

Really? I was thinking more of Uncle Ben, but whatever.


I'll take my delicious rice bowl in the study.

Shaggy_C

Well, the last 3/4 of a decade brought with it some interesting developments, like a major terror attack on U.S. soil and the beginning of the end of cheap petroleum (with the tip of its attendant economic iceberg just beginning to show). The former was a tragedy but not an indication of structural problems, while the latter is an indication of very deep, serious structural problems. Bush used the former as an excuse to make a move to mitigate the latter. All of this has made lots of people uneasy, and rightfully so. It hasn't been pretty, that's for sure.

I reckon the next 3/4 of a decade is probably going to bring further unpleasant surprises, and unpleasant but probably necessary reactions. We live in a land that has enjoyed unprecedented peace and prosperity and power for at least several generations, and the prospect of that run being interrupted or even ended is not comfortable to contemplate. Unfortunately, I see more unpleasantness on the horizon. I, for one, wouldn't want to be the guy (or gal) in office responding to what's coming our way, frankly.

liam76

Oh that's something i disagree on. I think blacks should be committed to fellow blacks - after all if they don't look out for each other who will? The feds and the welfare system? Please.

I was more discussing groups laying claim to values that are clearly human and often times directly tied to biology/brain chemistry.

The black values system seems to me to be a collection of human values, many of whom are tied to biology, aside from some pseudo marxist middleclassness nonsense.

DaSwankOne: If people from a poor area are pursuing an education and being more responsible because of this message, WTF do you care if they tie it to race? Have you ever heard of the "Puritain work ethic"? You are obviously not familiar since you used it as an example, but as someone who is part Spitzer and part Lehman I can let you know there is a Jewish Social Value system (look it up). You might have also heard of this group called the Amish.

Really? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Jewish+Social+Value+system%22+

My wife is jewish, I have been to servicew with her and been to many bar/bat mitzvah's. I have never heard them saying they are devoted to jewish family and jewish work ethic. Never heard them swear to only support jewish leadership. Never read about tenets that make them devoted to jewish this and jewish that. But even if I did people could still convert.

Do you htink the Puritans walked around and talked about puritan values or their work ethic, or do you think an outside group labeled their work ethic as such?

Even if you had a valid argument at this point (you don't) the fact remains that they are basing values not on a chosen religion, but on the color of their skin. They are attributing values to a geneticly determined trait. To their race. That is wrong.

I wouldn;t have a problem with it if they were using it only as a means to better themselvs, but it isn't used like that. It is used to isolate the black community, to draw a barrier between whites and blacks and say the problems of one is caused by the actions of the other. Do you really think a white person would excel in a community where they "pledged allegience to all black leadership".

Relatively Obscure: Degree Absolute: This might not be as big a deal if people actually knew where Obama stood on the issues. Sadly, because he is so tight-lipped on policy, we have to look to those around him and those who have influenced him to learn more about his policy stances. Obama did this to himself by only offering rhetoric and no substance.

If these conditions had some basis in the realm of truth you might be on to something.

I call it as I see it. Obama has done the least of all the Presidential candidates to make his views known. He decided to go in a different direction, one that was to his benefit for a while. Hell, I think his speeches are great. I can't deny it. However, the simple fact is that these speech are filled with flowery language, not concrete ideas.

If he was more concrete, it would have been harder to push him on the Wright issue.

otherginger: There is some truth to the complaint about Obama's positions and YES FOR DOG'S SAKE I READ HIS WEBSITE. I was just there today, trying to find out what he thinks/proposes about sex education -- not seeing anything there, but maybe I am not looking in the write place on the site. I looked under education and under health care.

Should've checked women's issues.

Barack Obama is an original co-sponsor of legislation to expand access to contraception, health information and preventive services to help reduce unintended pregnancies. Introduced in January 2007, the Prevention First Act will increase funding for family planning and comprehensive sex education that teaches both abstinence and safe sex methods. The Act will also end insurance discrimination against contraception, improve awareness about emergency contraception, and provide compassionate assistance to rape victims.

canyoneer: I, for one, wouldn't want to be the guy (or gal) in office responding to what's coming our way, frankly.

Double True. People are not going to like to hear the truth about what the next 10-20 years might be like if we want to get back on track.I do not think it will be as bad as you do, but IMHO the free market has failed miserably and as Wright would say, "The Chickens have come home to Roost".

"The big divide in this country is not between Democrats and Republicans, or women and men, but between talkers and doers." Thomas Sowell.

canyoneer: Bush used the former as an excuse to make a move to mitigate the latter. All of this has made lots of people uneasy, and rightfully so. It hasn't been pretty, that's for sure.

Sigh...back to this again? I still pose the question, why are invasions necessary? Why not just have a bunch of underhanded and backdoor dealings with tyrants like we have with the Saudis today? We could have tons of cheap oil flowing in if we'd just shut our trap and had allowed free trade with both Iran and Iraq. Hell, they would have become democratized much less violently and we wouldn't have spent a penny.

liam76: I wouldn;t have a problem with it if they were using it only as a means to better themselvs, but it isn't used like that. It is used to isolate the black community, to draw a barrier between whites and blacks and say the problems of one is caused by the actions of the other. Do you really think a white person would excel in a community where they "pledged allegience to all black leadership".

That's why white people are turned away at the door and can't become members there, right?

canyoneer: Haha. That's pretty good, because that's the one thing that isn't going to happen: Change.

No, my concern is with the large number of otherwise intelligent people who seem to have abandoned critical thinking altogether.

These individuals should know by now that the American constitutional system is designed to resist radical change. Change happens only ponderously in our Republic. In addition to this, America's problems are largely intractable because they are intrinsic to our economic/financial/industrial way of life.

Changing our way of life would be a decades-long project because it would involve changing the very physical infrastructure of our continent-sized nation. So, there is little chance that an Obama Presidency will change anything meaningful much at all - even eight years of an Obama Presidency.

So what we have is a large number of otherwise intelligent people who are willingly suspending disbelief and pouring all their hopes and dreams and wishes into an empty vessel: Obama. This is troubling. This kind of non-thinking can lead to dangerous things.

Jim Kunstler describes this potential (on the Right rather than the Left) as the tendency towards corn pone fascism. When large numbers of people who are distressed and not thinking clearly turn to a Messiah-like political figure unquestioningly, the risk of very bad policy decisions being made exists, and therefore even the potential for civil strife.

So, no: I'm not "afraid of change," I'm concerned about the evident fact that many Americans are losing or have lost their judgement. It is an indication of a population adrift, and that can lead to bad things. The fact that so many people are so intensely dissatisfied in the face of relatively minor problems makes me wonder what folly Americans might be capable of in a real crisis.

The theme that it seems you repeat the most is that nothing is going to change, and that believing that someone might have a positive impact on the future of the political landscape is silly.

I guess my question is, do you have counter proposals? You're awfully quick to say something won't work, but do you have any examples of policies or ideas that might?

I would honestly appreciate an insight into what you'd be in favor of, because I've read an awful lot about what you're against.

DaSwankOne: Jews have done this for centuries and it has work out pretty well except when others get jealous of their success.

they are committed to education, family and community, that is a far cry from saying you are committed to it for people of one race.

BoozePenguin: The black values system seems to me to be a collection of human values, many of whom are tied to biology, aside from some pseudo marxist middleclassness nonsense.

Pledging alliegance to leaders based on the color of their skin is a human value?

Pledging to support your community only if it is the right color is a human value?

barjocky Well you've got a point there - If I produced video of Obama worshipping satan and raping the mentally ill and he'd probably get more support from those who appreciate his "sexual honesty" and his "freedom of religion". He certainly wouldn't lose any supporters.

You made Denise laugh.

liam76

I was referring specifically to commitment to "black" education. Commitment to the "black" family and such things.

Yeah, like i mentioned in my Boobies, this group is racist. I was addressing specifics within their "black value system".

liam76: DaSwankOne: If people from a poor area are pursuing an education and being more responsible because of this message, WTF do you care if they tie it to race? Have you ever heard of the "Puritain work ethic"? You are obviously not familiar since you used it as an example, but as someone who is part Spitzer and part Lehman I can let you know there is a Jewish Social Value system (look it up). You might have also heard of this group called the Amish.

Really? http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22Jewish+Social+Value+system%22+

My wife is jewish, I have been to servicew with her and been to many bar/bat mitzvah's. I have never heard them saying they are devoted to jewish family and jewish work ethic. Never heard them swear to only support jewish leadership. Never read about tenets that make them devoted to jewish this and jewish that. But even if I did people could still convert.


This is more on the conservative and othodox side. But this happens "Christians" and "Muslims" other groups.

Do you htink the Puritans walked around and talked about puritan values or their work ethic, or do you think an outside group labeled their work ethic as such?

Actually the Puritans did. It comes accross alot in Social history and International Economics.

Even if you had a valid argument at this point (you don't) the fact remains that they are basing values not on a chosen religion, but on the color of their skin. They are attributing values to a geneticly determined trait. To their race. That is wrong.

I think many people can argue that Blacks/ African Americans have had a different societal evolution in America. For most of American History they have been not only genetically diferent but socially.

Like I said Black theology came from the racial stuggles of the 60's.

I wouldn;t have a problem with it if they were using it only as a means to better themselvs, but it isn't used like that. It is used to isolate the black community, to draw a barrier between whites and blacks and say the problems of one is caused by the actions of the other. Do you really think a white person would excel in a community where they "pledged allegience to all black leadership".

Again it is used to better themselves in the light of thier racial history. Again it is hard to see this with understanding what the black community has gone through.

Again this is what Barack Obama stressed in his speech. that instead of passing judgement on either side of the racial divide understand what each's gripe is about and work to eliminate this wall.

Yes it seems like just pretty rhetoric but until we actually do it people will harbor thier predjudices.

MFL: "The big divide in this country is not between Democrats and Republicans, or women and men, but between talkers and doers." Thomas Sowell.

What are you doing?

Don't hit them with NRO, it might hurt their Daily Kos mind control programs.

liam76: My wife is jewish, I have been to servicew with her and been to many bar/bat mitzvah's. I have never heard them saying they are devoted to jewish family and jewish work ethic. Never heard them swear to only support jewish leadership. Never read about tenets that make them devoted to jewish this and jewish that. But even if I did people could still convert.

And there are whites taht go to and where married at Trinity UCC.

Do you htink the Puritans walked around and talked about puritan values or their work ethic, or do you think an outside group labeled their work ethic as such?

Yes I do. If the church did not push these values, they would not have existed.

Even if you had a valid argument at this point (you don't) the fact remains that they are basing values not on a chosen religion, but on the color of their skin. They are attributing values to a geneticly determined trait. To their race. That is wrong.

I am really having a problem with this. Are you saying that it is okay to have values based of of one genetic fluke you have no control over like what religion your parents are, but not okay to have a value system based off of a genetic fluke like what color they are? This is loaded with stupid.

I wouldn;t have a problem with it if they were using it only as a means to better themselvs, but it isn't used like that. It is used to isolate the black community, to draw a barrier between whites and blacks and say the problems of one is caused by the actions of the other. Do you really think a white person would excel in a community where they "pledged allegience to all black leadership".

Oh another jackass that did not bother learning more about Wright before spouting off on Fark. Go it.

DaSwankOne: Degree Absolute: This might not be as big a deal if people actually knew where Obama stood on the issues. Sadly, because he is so tight-lipped on policy, we have to look to those around him and those who have influenced him to learn more about his policy stances. Obama did this to himself by only offering rhetoric and no substance.

Are we back to this meme? It is going to be a long, frustrating time on Fark until we win in November.

See this is what is wrong with America right here: people who think their particular party has all the answers. Your party does not have all the answers, neither does theirs. But please don't trust me, trust history.

If the Democrats do take power, some things are bound to get better, but other things are bound to get worse. Bank on it.

randomjsa: Don't hit them with NRO, it might hurt their Daily Kos mind control programs.

1/10

Relatively Obscure: Degree Absolute: I call it as I see it.

I wasn't insinuating that you weren't, just that how you see it is wrong.

Please enlighten me as why it is wrong. I am eager to learn.

liam76: they are committed to education, family and community, that is a far cry from saying you are committed to it for people of one race.

Saying that you are for education, family and community for blacks, does not mean you are only committed to it for one race either.

"He later visited a former member of the terrorist Weatherman Underground, who endorsed him when he ran for state senator."

FTA. (emphasis mine)

WTF? Forget Wright. Forget the false claims of him being Muslim.

If it is true that he has accepted support from an actual bona fide terrorist group member, particularly a Weatherman why isn't THAT getting coverage?

I have not heard this before and will now have to go and verify the facts and details, but if it true, then it radically changes my opinion of the man.

As it should anyone with even a little knowledge of the group. Forget the hate speechers, these guys are Unconscionable.

otherginger: There is some truth to the complaint about Obama's positions and YES FOR DOG'S SAKE I READ HIS WEBSITE. I was just there today, trying to find out what he thinks/proposes about sex education -- not seeing anything there, but maybe I am not looking in the write place on the site.

look here (tinyurl because the filter mangles the link ... if it doesn't open, the filter mangled the link anyway)

Degree Absolute: See this is what is wrong with America right here: people who think their particular party has all the answers. Your party does not have all the answers, neither does theirs. But please don't trust me, trust history.

If the Democrats do take power, some things are bound to get better, but other things are bound to get worse. Bank on it.

Please point me to the part of my post (or any post) where I said the Democrats have all of the answers.

Degree Absolute: DaSwankOne: Degree Absolute: This might not be as big a deal if people actually knew where Obama stood on the issues. Sadly, because he is so tight-lipped on policy, we have to look to those around him and those who have influenced him to learn more about his policy stances. Obama did this to himself by only offering rhetoric and no substance.

Are we back to this meme? It is going to be a long, frustrating time on Fark until we win in November.

See this is what is wrong with America right here: people who think their particular party has all the answers. Your party does not have all the answers, neither does theirs. But please don't trust me, trust history.

If the Democrats do take power, some things are bound to get better, but other things are bound to get worse. Bank on it.

...wait, what?

DA: Empty Suit.
DSO: This shiat again?
DA: Why do you think the Democrats are better then the Republicans?

I'd love to hear how you made that logic jump. Unless you're implying all politicians are empty suits.

Fine, sigh: http://tinyurl.com/22c6t