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(Wall Street Journal)   The pay gap between men and women is either due to women's poor negotiating skills, or rampant, systemic discrimination. Who knows?   (online.wsj.com) divider line 229
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5114 clicks; posted to Main » on 24 Mar 2008 at 12:12 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-03-24 04:24:17 PM  
rubi_con_man: Seriously - 80% of girls are hot enough right out of high school to be dating and living with adult men.

The young air-heads are only good for one thing....

If you want to get married, wait till you/their older. You need to find a partner who is successful(or at least good at what they do) mentally and professionally. You know, the ones who can actually carry an intelligent conversation.

/all that goes for men and women
 
2008-03-24 04:25:01 PM  
Last time a female employee biatched to me about her wages and how "women were chronically underpaid" I called her an idiot and told her to go ask her boss for a raise and I bet $20 she would get it.

She got the raise. I've done this twice now. The vast majority of PEOPLE who are underpaid are in that situation because of poor negotiating skills.
 
2008-03-24 04:33:45 PM  
the only gap i've notice looks like a camel toe
 
2008-03-24 05:03:05 PM  
goalie_piggy: the only gap i've notice looks like a camel toe

Not very often you get such a late thread WIN but there it is.

i235.photobucket.com
 
2008-03-24 05:17:07 PM  
StellaOS: StellaOS: I think you deserve a sick day every now and then when you feel like you had a bomb go off in your lower abdomen and you bleed from your genitals every month. Oh, you men will never understand.

Ok, so you're saying women are biologically incapable of working the same amount as men?

Shouldn't they be paid less if they can't do the same work?

Or did that equal pay for equal work thing not mean anything?

Wow, I'm so confused!!

/still respect you for not using it as an excuse

Sarcasm does not translate well over the interwebs. I learned that many moons ago, and really should keep that in mind.


I had faith you'd recognize it as such.

but even after doing so, you didn't answer the question.

If women want equal pay for equal work, and they don't do equal work, then how can they use that as a basis for comparison?

The moment you make an excuse for unequal work because of gender, then in fact you are reinforcing the negative stereotype that in general women can't be as effective in the work place and therefore in general should be paid less until they can prove otherwise.

If women like that want to be treated like equals in the work force, they should act like equals, not ask for special treatment.
 
2008-03-24 05:19:40 PM  
gorgor: Shut_up_and_fark_me
j0ndas: What really matters it that the female plumber was probably hired for "equal opportunity" reasons and doesn't have the same level of ability as the male plumbers, therefore she won't do as good a job. If she does a good job, nobody will care what sex she is.

What? Why would you automatically assume she was an EO hire?

Because she didn't have two feet of exposed ass crack? :)


I'd think that 2 feet of exposed *female* ass crack would likely be priced at a premium.

/Depending on who's writing the check, I guess.
 
2008-03-24 05:35:32 PM  
img259.imageshack.us
 
2008-03-24 05:39:56 PM  
Black Zombie Jesus In my econometrics class we discussed how it nearly impossible to compare men's pay and women's pay for a variety of reasons. It's a lot more complicated to do than it sounds.

Nonsense. First, salary is an easily quantifiable variable (measured on the ratio scale) and it is simple enough to classify someone as female or male. As far as all the other potential moderating variables (education, experience, geographic region, time away from work to raise children, etc), they too can be measured and accounted for. There is no reason one could not analyze those data, using multiple regression for instance, and then use those results to make a meainingful interpretation of the true relationship.
 
2008-03-24 05:42:41 PM  
Bonzo_1116
I'd think that 2 feet of exposed *female* ass crack would likely be priced at a premium.

If you say so. (new window)
 
2008-03-24 05:46:10 PM  
StellaOS: if I want to get it done, I do it myself. That's the only way I feel it is going to get done correctly.

Good attitude there. I feel the same way most of the time.

Not joking or being sarcastic.
 
2008-03-24 05:58:37 PM  
gorgor: Bonzo_1116
I'd think that 2 feet of exposed *female* ass crack would likely be priced at a premium.

If you say so. (new window)


I am so *not* clicking on that at work.

/Does it feature Sir Mix-A-Lot?
 
2008-03-24 06:01:01 PM  
FTA: 42% of the women held an occupational license or certification versus 34% of the men

I'm curious as to what criteria they used in determining this. My HVAC class is a sausage party, and every single one of us has a boiler license. We also all have some form of EPA certification as refrigerant handlers (section 608 of the Clean Air Act). Auto mechanics usually end up getting Section 609 certification as well, in addition to their own certifications. Then you have all the hazmat, asbestos abatement, and other certifications.

I have a sneaking suspicion those kinds of certifications aren't being included (due in large part to it being about people with bachelor's degrees), and the tone of the article acts as though this applies to people of all backgrounds. How much do you want to bet that a lot of the certifications listed for the womenfolk are either more or less useless in and of themselves, or simply not being applied?
 
2008-03-24 06:01:31 PM  
Bonzo_1116
I am so *not* clicking on that at work.

/Does it feature Sir Mix-A-Lot?


LMAO:)
Definitely a contender for a video extra.
 
2008-03-24 06:05:18 PM  
gorgor: Bonzo_1116
I'd think that 2 feet of exposed *female* ass crack would likely be priced at a premium.

If you say so. (new window)


I saw a whole website devoted to that kind of picture once. It was strangely beautiful yet disturbing.
 
2008-03-24 06:08:53 PM  
Shut_up_and_fark_me:
There is very often a PERCEPTION that men are more valuable than women, especially in the eyes of male managers and executives. This is a well-documented phenomenon, wherein women don't get credit for ideas they put forth. I have actually sat in meetings where male peers have said things like "I though of an idea..." and then presented something I had suggested to them. I jump in and correct them, and every six months at review time, my manager tells me I am too aggressive.


Your problem is that when you come up with an idea you tell a male co-worker of the same level as yourself (probably because you are dependent on male validation without realizing it). However, you fail to tell your boss because you are more afraid of being rejected by a superior than you are in need of validation. Then a while later during a meeting, usually after you co-worker has long forgotten where the idea came from (because he is a guy, and that is how our brains work), he thinks of the idea you mentioned and brings it up. When it gets a good reaction you then want your accolades and validation, and so you call him not giving you credit. Unfortunately, by doing this after the fact you just look petty and jealous, especially to us guys who don't give anyone credit for an idea they have unless they present it themselves.

My advice is to remember the following rules of idea presentation:
1.) Don't discuss the idea with ANY co-workers before your next group meeting, this includes your boss.
2.) If you aren't sure if it is a good idea try it out on a couple friends that you do NOT work with.
3.) Before presenting an idea make a list of reasons why it wouldn't work, imagining the whole time it is the idea of the person who last stole credit for one of your ideas. Then write down good responses to all the arguments against the idea, and if any response is weak then come up with a couple more arguments about that point.
4.) Also come up with a few variations or simple modifications to the idea that could be offered as well, especially ones that will solve the tougher problems you thought of in step 3.
5.) Always present ideas in a meeting with at least a couple other people so you can take proper credit, or use email to present the idea so you have a record. However, never bring up the fact that it was your idea directly after the fact. If someone else is getting all the credit always work in your responsibility subtly, such as by saying things like "Jim, you sure did take that idea of mine to a whole other level, good work.". But don't do this often, just enough that people can't forget, but don't get annoyed.
6.) If your idea is clearly not going to be accepted then don't fight for it, fighting a losing battle makes you look obstinate and stupid. Use a couple of your ideas from step 5 if you can, but if they sink you are done with this idea, so forget about it, and never bring it up again. There are two things that really annoy most guys, people with no ideas, and people with a bad idea that they won't let go. Try not to be either one.
7.) No matter what happens remember this: Guys LIKE to "spit-ball", or in other words, throw out a bunch of ideas to see which one sticks. We understand this method of attacking a problem and therefore we don't give each other a hard time for coming up with the occasional bad idea. We will even go so far as to say "Debbie's bad idea just gave me a great idea..." and thus pass the credit around. So throw those ideas out, let them get bounced around, you may only get partial "credit", but everyone will still think of you as an integral part of the team, and your performance will be noted.
 
2008-03-24 06:24:36 PM  
Hosebeatings
I saw a whole website devoted to that kind of picture once. It was strangely beautiful yet disturbing.

Well it would be fun with a beating hose :)
 
2008-03-24 07:24:32 PM  
I hire people.

- Women hardly ever try to negotiate higher than starting wage.
- Men ALWAYS ask for more than you first offer and usually expect up to 10% over offer.

- Woman also accept the status quo for raises.
- Men continually try to negotiate an 'above average' or 'merit based exception' to increase their annual increase over the standard.

- Women who try and are refused take it very personally and get disenfranchised and more easily move on, into another starting wage position.
- Men are prepared for rejection and accept the attempt and any subsequent denial as part of they employment experience.
 
2008-03-24 07:48:26 PM  
Anyone who tries to oversimplify this argument is a waste of an argument. When someone tells me women make less than men because of 'the system', I dont waste my time.

Sure 'the system' is slightly skewed against women, but the educational 'system' is now skewed towards these same women, so you tell me when it evens out.

I can tell you I had the guts to ask for more money when I got a job offer I was going to take no matter what. I got an extra 5% tacked onto my annual salary because of that one small act. And this is my first job out of grad school. You can see how big of a difference that would make after a 20 year career with basic 3% raises every year.

Granted, if I were on the other end and a woman tried to negotiate with me on salary, I would expect her to cave into the original demand more often than a man. So I guess this is somewhat of a chicken/egg argument. Which is why simplifying the whole concept of male/female equivalence to one argument is just small-minded.
 
2008-03-24 07:59:42 PM  
BHShaman: I hire people.

- Women hardly ever try to negotiate higher than starting wage.
- Men ALWAYS ask for more than you first offer and usually expect up to 10% over offer.

- Woman also accept the status quo for raises.
- Men continually try to negotiate an 'above average' or 'merit based exception' to increase their annual increase over the standard.

- Women who try and are refused take it very personally and get disenfranchised and more easily move on, into another starting wage position.
- Men are prepared for rejection and accept the attempt and any subsequent denial as part of they employment experience.


I use the passive-agressive technique of not directly asking for a raise, but by making it clear I have lots of contacts in places where I could get another job pretty quick if I wanted. It works so well I barely notice I'm doing it anymore.

/Although I have to say in this job I almost don't care what they pay, because we work a 4 day/week schedule. Perpetual three day weekends are worth more than mere cash.
//Bonus advice: always go on at least one interview a year--especially if you don't actually want to switch jobs. You'll keep your interviewing sharp, and you can practice asking for outrageous compensation. Sort of like Spud in Trainspotting.
///Female
 
2008-03-24 08:18:56 PM  
Guys are used to asking for stuff and expecting rejection at best half the time. Its called dating.

Women like guys who earn lots of money guys think hmm "i better make lots of money to be attractive" guys then earn more money.

Guys like women to look pretty women spend more time looking pretty
than men do women end up looking prettier than men.
Shock horror.
 
2008-03-24 08:25:02 PM  
WOMEN ARE STUPID. IT'S SCIENCE. DON'T ARGUE WITH SCIENCE.


you are educated stupid
 
2008-03-24 08:34:02 PM  
Bonzo_1116
///Female


I know my post was a generalized, but is true an extremely high percentage of time.

Congrats to you! If more women were proactive in increasing their potential for increased income, more woman would get the same level of compensation as men. Encourage your friends to be as forward as you are.

Letting employers know you have other options is NOT passive aggressive. It is straight up informing them that you have other opportunities and are considering them if they can not keep up with a reasonable level of compensation.

Working less than you should while complaining about your wage is passive-aggressive. It does not sound as if you are in that category.
 
2008-03-24 09:16:36 PM  
BHShaman:

Working less than you should while complaining about your wage is passive-aggressive. It does not sound as if you are in that category.


Slacking off is an entirely different activity--I think of that more as a vocation.

I'd say 90% of the folks posting here are enjoying the benefits of slacking right now.
 
2008-03-24 10:21:43 PM  
gfactor47: "2008-03-24 11:59:49 AM
The pay gap is a myth. The 75 cent per dollar number only works if you factor in pay over a life time."

FTA:


After one year of full-time employment, women earn 20% less than their male colleagues, according to a study conducted by the American Association of University Women (AAUW) a Washington-based nonprofit.


See the study can't be trusted. First off it was done by women. And second, it was a nonprofit agency. If they were any good they would be making money.
 
2008-03-25 04:27:39 AM  
I'd say 90% of the folks posting here are enjoying the benefits of slacking right now.

Yup, that's true. I even work in a factory, but it's a high-tech factory, so I get to sit on computers most of the night.

/Works in a new area, so everything takes longer and requires less attention
//Loves every minute of it
 
2008-03-25 04:51:28 AM  
The problem is probably historical combined with the fact that women have babies, and this disrupts the work cycle. Also, many women choose to take 2-10 years off to raise the kids, so managers are unlikely to place women in the 27-35 age group in important positions which require 60 hrs of work and critical knowledge etc. Normally men continue to work after having children so it is a much safer bet. From a social justice POV, I suppose that two totally equal employees should get paid the same, but in reality people with very high social intelligence work less, get promoted, and get paid more regardless of gender or actual work output.

//You'll get over it
 
2008-03-25 09:30:48 AM  
snorton1: BunkyBrewman:

Wow. You believe the EEOC?

Here is something to chew on. IF the employer, who truly believes they did not discriminate... fights allegations in a court of law... how much do you think it will cost an innocent person to defend themselves against the government?

I've actually been told by an EEOC manager that they are "Press Hounds". (read: press whores) They put out press releases attempting to slander and defame a business legally. The business, in return, understands the cost of defending itself in a court of law. THIS, my friend, is why the vast majority of discrimination cases are settled before they go to court. Quite simply put, it is much less expensive to settle, than to defend yourself, and possibly put your business at risk. It's legal blackmail.

You may want to stop looking at official government, self-serving statistics and press releases and speak to those who might give you a different perspective to how the EEOC operates.

I have no doubt that the EEOC does try to use these kind of tactics at times. However, the EEOC does not prosecute/follow up in any detailed way on the vast majority of cases brought before them, and the "settlement" reached in those cases is typically just that the charge is dismissed, much to the disappointment of the charging party.

Additionally, if you'd read through any of the litigation settlement reports, I think you would have to agree that there is a wide variety of blatant, egregious discrimination. If you're not willing to read it, I suppose it doesn't exist for you.

Is the EEOC perfect? Of course not. Are the real-world coworkers and managers discussed in these reports perfect? Far from it. Does a stylized "capitalist" interested only in profits beat out government bureaucrats in most people's eyes? Sure - it's just that it's not a very good description of what happens in real life.


At times? Are you serious? EVERY time. The EEOC is struggling to justify it's bloated existence. Their investigative process is a complete and utter joke.

Since I can comment on dealing with the EEOC in "real life", I am far more qualified to speak on their tactics than most others. They not only pursue egregious cases, but those are becoming less and less prevalent in todays society. We are not talking about cases where true discrimination exists, but those that are borderline, at best.

Honestly, I wish I had the time to provide you with many real-life experiences with this governmental entity. However, I don't. Suffice it to say, when the gov't decides to use it's resources to blackmail a business, they completely understand how much they can shake down someone for. They also realize that IF you fight them, and WIN, it will still cost you much more than settling before it goes to trial. It is a no-win situation for business owners.

All this being said, I do agree with you. Discrimination exists. However, not remotely close to what the EEOC claims it to be.
 
2008-03-25 12:11:13 PM  
I thought the gay pap between men and women only happened with celebrities?!
 
2008-03-25 12:12:56 PM  
BunkyBrewman:
At times? Are you serious? EVERY time. The EEOC is struggling to justify it's bloated existence. Their investigative process is a complete and utter joke.

Since I can comment on dealing with the EEOC in "real life", I am far more qualified to speak on their tactics than most others. They not only pursue egregious cases, but those are becoming less and less prevalent in todays society. We are not talking about cases where true discrimination exists, but those that are borderline, at best.

Honestly, I wish I had the time to provide you with many real-life experiences with this governmental entity. However, I don't. Suffice it to say, when the gov't decides to use it's resources to blackmail a business, they completely understand how much they can shake down someone for. They also realize that IF you fight them, and WIN, it will still cost you much more than settling before it goes to trial. It is a no-win situation for business owners.

All this being said, I do agree with you. Discrimination exists. However, not remotely close to what the EEOC claims it to be.


Since I, too, can comment on the EEOC's investigative process, having volunteered at a branch office for a period of time, I think it would be prudent of you to distinguihs the investigative process from the process in which the EEOC prosecutes claims. The two are distinct processes. In the first, the EEOC engages in fact-finding, including, but not limited to, requests for a statement on the charge brought by the charging party, information on corporate policies relevant to the charge, and information on corporate diversity. It may be the case that the company doesn't want to provide that information, but that is part of the investigative process. As I said, most cases end at this stage.

Honestly, it is true that I know much less about the prosecutorial stage - I was only involved in the investigative side. So you may be correct. However, I can tell you that the folks in the investigative side feel as though they a) likely miss lots of "real" discrimination because they do not have the resources to properly investigate most cases, b) dismiss large numbers of charges because there is no evidence other than the claim of the charging party, and c) by and large don't seem to be "out to justify their existence," but rather trying to work through massive caseloads in a fashion that catches the worst discriminators.

Of course, this might differ tremendously by EEOC office, but I would guess that the investigative process probably largely looks the same most places.
 
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