So, Senator Obama's position is that he attended the church for 20 years, was a close friend of Pastor Wright, and yet had no idea that the Pastor thought and said the things that the Senator now finds condemnable? Okey dokey.

SnoreCriminal

You know if you insist on always doing the math for him, he'll never learn to do story problems on his own.

Sofa King Awesome: Odd, most of the militant lesbians I know support Obama.

That's because they want to see a woman get licked and are mad that Hillary has such an interest in polls.

fosborb: if you really want debate, maybe rebutting responses to your openning salvo would be a good place to start.

Well - um, okay then.

An_Innocent_Primate: shut up barjockey, you cock.

But, I...

cameroncrazy1984: might as well go crazy

Well, actually, I...

Crazy_horce: I think you're a douche

...

So much for that idea.

HappyDaddy: So, Senator Obama's position is that he attended the church for 20 years, was a close friend of Pastor Wright, and yet had no idea that the Pastor thought and said the things that the Senator now finds condemnable? Okey dokey.

Dude, you're late. barjockey's already filled this thread with Troll, you'll have to find another.

BTW, read the above posts ... and try to keep up for fark's sake.

gtraz 2008-03-19 10:47:27 AM
Sofa King Awesome 2008-03-19 10:29:26 AM
Sofa King Awesome 2008-03-19 10:13:29 AM

HappyDaddy: So, Senator Obama's position is that he attended the church for 20 years, was a close friend of Pastor Wright, and yet had no idea that the Pastor thought and said the things that the Senator now finds condemnable? Okey dokey.

It sounds like you have some nagging questions remaining. Excuse me while I whip this out.

"Did I know [Rev Wright] to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely - just as I'm sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed."
- Obama, yesterday.


Yup. So official it was even in Obama's speech yesterday.

"Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

HappyDaddy: So, Senator Obama's position is that he attended the church for 20 years, was a close friend of Pastor Wright, and yet had no idea that the Pastor thought and said the things that the Senator now finds condemnable? Okey dokey.

I've had friends who thought some whaky stuff. If I searched some of the people I used to hang out with, I'm sure that some of them would be 9/11 "truthers". I was roommates with a Bible-thumping weapon collector who had fantasies of some great battle of good vs. evil that was just around the corner.

There are people with good hearts that believe weird stuff. My own grandfather was the kindest most generous man I ever met and he had some crazy idea that some goof in Rome could talk directly to some invisible sky wizard. He was still my role model.

barjockey: fosborb: if you really want debate, maybe rebutting responses to your openning salvo would be a good place to start.

Well - um, okay then.

An_Innocent_Primate: shut up barjockey, you cock.

you realize that I said quite a bit more than that, don't you? Why don't you respond to my points? Can you respond to my points?

barjockey: I'm just kidding. I'm voting for him - heh. Go change! Hey, are there any non-Obama supporters in this thread? Let's get 'em! Maybe we can insult them into voting Obama! GOBAMA!

Hey, wanna throw a pity party??? I've got the tissues and a couple of pints of ice cream. We could all go watch Sex in the City and have a good cry.

fosborb: "Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes."

Did you know that the Roman Catholic Church used to tell parents that their child would go to hell if it died before it could be baptized? Now THAT is sick!

barjockey: fosborb: if you really want debate, maybe rebutting responses to your openning salvo would be a good place to start.
...[barjockey obfuscation deleted]...
So much for that idea.

Wow, my four year-old shows better critical thinking skills. Maybe you should try arguing in a bar, jockey, then you wouldn't have the chat trail of logical rebuttals to follow you. But you'd probably just get socked.

barjockey

Thinking Barrier #2 -- Victim Role

Victim-Role Thinkers see circumstances, or others as at fault, but rarely see themselves as the cause of their misfortune. They seem to have a little grey cloud that follows them wherever they go. As a habit they do not hold themselves accountable, but point a finger of blame at anything and anyone else. Nothing is ever their fault, ...they never get a break, ...life is unfair, ... and so on... and on... and on

\\poor you. Persecuted and misunderstood

A woman scorned is a dangerous thing. And that's what this is about isn't it? A woman who deserves to be President. She has an unfaithful husband and now here own party is treating her this way???



There's going to be hell to pay.

Crazy_horce: barjockey

Thinking Barrier #2 -- Victim Role

Victim-Role Thinkers see circumstances, or others as at fault, but rarely see themselves as the cause of their misfortune. They seem to have a little grey cloud that follows them wherever they go. As a habit they do not hold themselves accountable, but point a finger of blame at anything and anyone else. Nothing is ever their fault, ...they never get a break, ...life is unfair, ... and so on... and on... and on

\\poor you. Persecuted and misunderstood

barjockey is HRC??

That explains sooooo much!

This is almost as bad as them trying to blame Obama for the Hsu controversy...

Nary a word was whispered about Obama's ties to Norman Hsu and the money Obama solicited and received from Hsu.

barjockey:

I'm going to deconstruct this quote, because what you think you wrote (apparently) and what other people read seem to be out of sway...

They actually make a good point.

I'll assume you meant the 'Hillary is 44' people... except that they didn't. Their use of quotations on Obama is entirely subjective, and misquotes or misunderstands his quotes as contradictions, when they are instead subtle differences. The site goes on to state that they heard his grammy was racist, so he must be too... at what point can you read that and walk away feeling you were just properly educated?

But of course I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama.

Well, to answer your honest question there in the hopes of spirited debate... fark you. :D

In any case, if I was a member of a church, and my pastor said something that I wholeheartedly disagreed with and that offended me, I'm finding another church. You would too. But somehow, Obama gets a pass.

No, you wouldn't. 1st you would have to be a member of a church, which isn't just going every Sunday. You are part of a community there, and know the other people in your congregation. I am a devout Roman Catholic, and when the priest/little boy raping was at it's zenith in the news, my pastor read a statement talking about forgiveness and etc etc... it was crap. I was HORRIBLY offended. But I didn't just go 'THAT'S IT, WE'RE BREAKING UP!', I went up and told him so. Neither did TONS of other people. It doesn't mean we approve of little boy man love, it means there are other reasons we went there. But I assume, when you say 'if I was a member of a church' you are NOT a member of a church? Then shut up.

C'mon Obama supporters - It's not logical to believe that in 20 years he never heard this inflammatory rhetoric. Seriously, do you know what kind of leap in logic it takes to believe that?

Well, considering both the recorded sessions are responding to national crises... I would assume that his chances were, in fact, quite good. Senators are typically busy during national crises and all. You are assuming that these were his speeches EVERY DAY. And in any effect, people are entitled to their opinions, and those in politics should feel obligated to listen to every concern society has. I have plenty of friends whom I don't agree with, so once again... where's the issue?

If he heard it, and stayed, why? If he heard it, disagreed, and stayed for 20 years - am I supposed to believe that he is a man of conviction? If he heard it and agreed with it - do we want an America-hater as our president? I'm trying to wrap my mind around this. I'll be reasonable - but I'm not going to blindly accept what my conscience rejects.

You are making a MULTITUDE of false assumption here. You assume he heard it, approved of it (or at the least only passively and silently objected), listened with an open heart for 20 years and now will reflect those into his possible presidency. Have you NEVER had a friend with whom you have disagreed on a fundamental belief? No friends outside your religion? None outside your political views? No one you respected who thought differently about the drug war or prison system or gun laws or whether Jesus was a savior vs heretic or homosexuality? People are MAKING a connection rather than FINDING one.

And, for the record... barjockey: I asked honest questions about a farking presidential candidate. He's not the messiah people. Is it satisfying to discourage any debate whatsoever?

That last paragraph has questions in it... but you opened with demeaning rhetoric and abusive language to others' opinions, then asked questions that have no support of facts.

At the end of the day, whether you support Obama, Clinton, McCain or some other guy, in the best interests of this nation we should ALL support open, honest, non derogatory (fark offensive, you HAVE to offend some people, but I still think we can avoid derision), fact-based debate. You had none of that. Don't blame everyone else for your offenses.

skinnycatullus: Just FYI, the exchange that followed that post earned you a free month in the crazy house. Welcome to TF.

Thanks skinny. I appreciate it.

Time to see how the other half lives...

SnoreCriminal: So, you start off by agreeing with an anti-Obama, hate site, that is calling for him to resign because someone he knows said something. Will you also be calling for Hillary to resign because Geraldine Ferraro said that minorities and women aren't really qualified for politics and that they only go any distance because they minorities or women?

I don't agree that he should resign - I was referring to their calling his comments hypocritical when he said he never heard Wright rail, and then later he said he did. I don't think Obama should resign from the senate. Did you catch that?

SnoreCriminal: One wonders if you use these same invectives against Hillary "Crotchrot" Clinton or John "Madman" McCain.

Sure. I've got no love whatsoever for either one of them. My issues at the moment, being that it's the subject at hand, were concerning Obama. I made a rash decision in judgement and thought that was okay.

SnoreCriminal: In your world of pure white(aryan?) and black, things are only good or bad and can't be both apparently.

So know you're calling me a racist in a subtle, douche-y sort of way because my political views are different than Obama's - and somehow I must vote for him to prove to the world that I'm not a racist. That's the most pathetic thing I've ever heard in my life. I wish like hell I agreed with him, because guess what? I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominenc e despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring. I am just politically opposed to him. But in your mind, that makes me an evil racist bigot.

SnoreCriminal: I am curious how many of the good reverands speeches you watched or listened to.

I heard what I heard. I have to subject myself to hours of drivel to qualify myself to you in order to comment on the subject?

SnoreCriminal: Sorry, it is even more illogical to believe that Obama should know everything the reverand has ever said. He isn't Omniscient, as you point out, he isn't the messiah.

No - he's not. But when one makes the personal decision to run for the highest office in the land - and is asking for my vote to put him there, please forgive my audacity in questioning his relationships.

barjockey: I heard what I heard. I have to subject myself to hours of drivel to qualify myself to you in order to comment on the subject?

So, you've taken a total of, let's say, 30 seconds of clips of Rev. Wright's sermons (given over a span of YEARS) and deduced what kind of a person he is. Hey, that's all you know about him, so I can't say that it's entirely unfair. However, when you make individual statements that make you look like a complete ass and you get called on it, you can't handle it.

IRONY, anyone?

An_Innocent_Primate: barjockey: I heard what I heard. I have to subject myself to hours of drivel to qualify myself to you in order to comment on the subject?

So, you've taken a total of, let's say, 30 seconds of clips of Rev. Wright's sermons (given over a span of YEARS) and deduced what kind of a person he is. Hey, that's all you know about him, so I can't say that it's entirely unfair. However, when you make individual statements that make you look like a complete ass and you get called on it, you can't handle it.

IRONY, anyone?

Not well-described irony... but sure.

Better to say something akin to 'so you are willing to define a man by 1 of the MULTITUDE of speeches... but you don't want to be defined by yours?'

Possibly more accurate. Still, barjockey is being better than a few other people I've debated recently.

barjockey @ 10am: I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama ... But somehow, Obama gets a pass ... do we want an America-hater as our president?

barjockey @ 11am: I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominence despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring.

Fat, lazy, and cognitively dissonant is no way to go through life, son.

Sofa King Awesome: BTW, read the above posts ... and try to keep up for fark's sake.

fosborb: Yup. So official it was even in Obama's speech yesterday.

Look up "condemnable" and get back to me.

Anyone who believes that Senator Obama only recently became aware of the Pastor's beliefs and statements which he (the Senator) now finds it necessary to condemn is frighteningly naive or willfully obtuse. Note: There is an important distinction to be made between beliefs and statements that are "controversial" and those that one thinks deserve condemnation.

An_Innocent_Primate: barjockey: I heard what I heard. I have to subject myself to hours of drivel to qualify myself to you in order to comment on the subject?

So, you've taken a total of, let's say, 30 seconds of clips of Rev. Wright's sermons (given over a span of YEARS) and deduced what kind of a person he is. Hey, that's all you know about him, so I can't say that it's entirely unfair. However, when you make individual statements that make you look like a complete ass and you get called on it, you can't handle it.

IRONY, anyone?

Being a professed Christian, standing in the pulpit as a man of the cloth, and shouting "God DAMN America!" at your congregation is quite telling of a person's character.

Being a professed Christian, standing in the pulpit as a man of the cloth, and shouting a mere 5 days after 9/11 that our innocent friends and family members that were brutally slaughtered brought it upon themselves and deserved their violent deaths is quite telling of a person's character.

I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

JimStarkBand: Not well-described irony... but sure.

I see no reason to waste more time than it takes to form a skeleton of an argument against barjockey. He won't respond to it anyway and I think I made my point, if not as clearly as possible.

Sofa King Awesome: barjockey @ 10am: I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama ... But somehow, Obama gets a pass ... do we want an America-hater as our president?

barjockey @ 11am: I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominence despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring.

Fat, lazy, and cognitively dissonant is no way to go through life, son.

Oh that's rich. Where on the great totem pole of logical fallacies does quoting someone out of context exist? You are well aware that I posed that in the form of a question. That IF he agreed....I can't read his heart and so therefore I do not know. I know what his PR team manufactured in the speech he gave yesterday, but I don't know his true heart and neither do you. I am not calling him an America-hater or a non America-hater. I am claiming neutrality on the subject.

barjockey: Being a professed Christian, standing in the pulpit as a man of the cloth, and shouting a mere 5 days after 9/11 that our innocent friends and family members that were brutally slaughtered brought it upon themselves and deserved their violent deaths is quite telling of a person's character.

He never said anyone deserved to die. He didn't even say anything about the people that died. He said that America - the nation - and it's foreign policy brought about such resentment that such an attack was inevitable.

Can you honestly disagree with that last sentence?

cameroncrazy1984: barjockey: I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

Huh. I was unaware that Obama was a preacher and said those things.

Look crazy, re-read what I was responding to. The person being discussed was Wright.

HappyDaddy: Anyone who believes that Senator Obama only recently became aware of the Pastor's beliefs and statements which he (the Senator) now finds it necessary to condemn is frighteningly naive or willfully obtuse.

Care to respond to the facts?

Obama: Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television sets and YouTube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way.

But the truth is, that isn't all that I know of the man. The man I met more than 20 years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another, to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a United States Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over 30 years has led a church that serves the community by doing God's work here on Earth - by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions - the good and the bad - of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can disown my white grandmother - a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed her by on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

barjockey: Where on the great totem pole of logical fallacies does quoting someone out of context exist?

Even more irony!

cameroncrazy1984: barjockey: I don't think I'm being unreasonable here.

Huh. I was unaware that Obama was a preacher and said those things.

He's a MOOSLIM preecher and he is BALK!

(Obama has proven that when the American populace is treated as an adult, many child-like minds will cry.)

barjockey:

Oh that's rich. Where on the great totem pole of logical fallacies does quoting someone out of context exist?

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

Selective enforcement of rhetorical argument...nice

barjockey: was mine too long?

Timanous: barjockey:

Oh that's rich. Where on the great totem pole of logical fallacies does quoting someone out of context exist?

Pot.

Kettle.

Black.

Selective enforcement of rhetorical argument...nice

I can't even html right today...

/more coffee, please...

NPR: Freedom and Liberation

Dwight Hopkins, a professor at the University of Chicago Divinity School, says black liberation theology often portrays Jesus as a brown-skinned revolutionary. He cites the words of Mary in the Magnificat - also known as the "Song of Mary" - in which she says God intends to bring down the mighty and raise the lowly. Hopkins also notes that in the book of Matthew, Jesus says the path to heaven is to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, visit the sick and the prisoners. And the central text for black liberation theology can be found in Chapter 4 of Luke's gospel, where Jesus outlines the purpose of his ministry.

"Jesus says my mission is to eradicate poverty and to bring about freedom and liberation for the oppressed," Hopkins says. "And most Christian pastors in America skip over that part of the book."

Hopkins attends Trinity United Church of Christ, where Rev. Wright just retired as pastor. In the now-famous sermon from 2003, Wright said black people's troubles are a result of racism that still exists in America, crying out, "No, no, no, not God bless America! God damn America - that's in the Bible - for killing innocent people."

According to Hopkins, that was theological wordplay - because the word "damn" is straight out of the Bible and has a specific meaning in the original Hebrew.

"It means a sacred condemnation by God to a wayward nation who has strayed from issues of justice, strayed from issues of peace, strayed from issues of reconciliation," Hopkins says.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88552254

An_Innocent_Primate: barjockey: Being a professed Christian, standing in the pulpit as a man of the cloth, and shouting a mere 5 days after 9/11 that our innocent friends and family members that were brutally slaughtered brought it upon themselves and deserved their violent deaths is quite telling of a person's character.

He never said anyone deserved to die. He didn't even say anything about the people that died. He said that America - the nation - and it's foreign policy brought about such resentment that such an attack was inevitable.

Can you honestly disagree with that last sentence?

If I helped old ladies cross the street, and there was a violent well known group that existed for the sole purpose of murdering people that helped old ladies cross the street, and I was killed, does the fact that my actions brought about my death mean that it was justifiable?

What kind of preacher is so devoid of human compassion that he goes straight for a huge divisive anti-American political rant days after 9/11? If he felt this way, would it not be more honorable to preach God's word to a hurting group of poeple, express sorrow and empathy, and express his political views somewhere outside of the Lord's house?

barjockey: Sofa King Awesome: barjockey @ 10am: I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama ... But somehow, Obama gets a pass ... do we want an America-hater as our president?

barjockey @ 11am: I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominence despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring.

barjockey: Oh that's rich ... You are well aware that I posed that in the form of a question ... I can't read his heart and so therefore I do not know ... I am not calling him an America-hater or a non America-hater. I am claiming neutrality on the subject.

If barjockey diddles little kids, should we let him walk the streets without an ankle bracelet? I'm claiming neutrality on the subject, but I am curious just how far we should let this guy go if he's diddling little kids. I can't read his heart, but he may also hate America. I just don't know.

Sofa King Awesome: Care to respond to the facts?

What "facts" would those be? He gave a lovely speech that didn't address my point. My point is a narrow one. It is probably unimportant to you - which is fine. It is simply this - the suggestion by the Senator that Pastor Wright's more outrageous sermons and beliefs are news to him is nonsense. The appropriate response to them is fairly arguable. The idea that he had no idea until recently that they existed is silly.

JimStarkBand: barjockey: was mine too long?

Huh?

Sofa King Awesome: barjockey: Sofa King Awesome: barjockey @ 10am: I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama ... But somehow, Obama gets a pass ... do we want an America-hater as our president?

barjockey @ 11am: I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominence despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring.

barjockey: Oh that's rich ... You are well aware that I posed that in the form of a question ... I can't read his heart and so therefore I do not know ... I am not calling him an America-hater or a non America-hater. I am claiming neutrality on the subject.

If barjockey diddles little kids, should we let him walk the streets without an ankle bracelet? I'm claiming neutrality on the subject, but I am curious just how far we should let this guy go if he's diddling little kids. I can't read his heart, but he may also hate America. I just don't know.

I lol'd.

barjockey: If I helped old ladies cross the street, and there was a violent well known group that existed for the sole purpose of murdering people that helped old ladies cross the street, and I was killed, does the fact that my actions brought about my death mean that it was justifiable?

That is quite possibly the worst analogy I have ever seen.

Are you really saying that the 9/11 plotters had no other motive than to kill people doing good things? And that America was minding its own business and not perpetuating war in other nations? It seems you need a history lesson.

HappyDaddy: Anyone who believes that Senator Obama only recently became aware of the Pastor's beliefs and statements which he (the Senator) now finds it necessary to condemn is frighteningly naive or willfully obtuse.

As are people who think Obama has tried to say he only recently became aware of Rev Wright's beliefs.

Look, a story from over a year ago that shows Obama inticipated this current "scandal."

HappyDaddy: Sofa King Awesome: Care to respond to the facts?

What "facts" would those be? He gave a lovely speech that didn't address my point. My point is a narrow one. It is probably unimportant to you - which is fine. It is simply this - the suggestion by the Senator that Pastor Wright's more outrageous sermons and beliefs are news to him is nonsense. The appropriate response to them is fairly arguable. The idea that he had no idea until recently that they existed is silly.

Hi, could you please find a copy of the speech (widely available) and copy/paste the section where Obama says "Pastor Wright's more outrageous sermons and beliefs are news to him".

In context please.

HappyDaddy: It is simply this - the suggestion by the Senator that Pastor Wright's more outrageous sermons and beliefs are news to him is nonsense.

He never said this, that I have seen. Obama has said that he didn't hear the specific sermons that have been parsed into 5-second sound bites and replayed as if they were Wright's entire message.

Damnit, try it again:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/us/politics/06obama.html

Sofa King Awesome: barjockey: Sofa King Awesome: barjockey @ 10am: I understand blind allegiance, and mindless chants of "change" prevail above all else, so it's a complete waste of time to try and pin anything to Barack "The Teflon Wonder" Obama ... But somehow, Obama gets a pass ... do we want an America-hater as our president?

barjockey @ 11am: I actually like the guy. I'm just one of those wacky people that's capable of separating political views from personality, race, etc. and questioning the issues. His story of rising to prominence despite his background and ethnicity is quite inspiring.

barjockey: Oh that's rich ... You are well aware that I posed that in the form of a question ... I can't read his heart and so therefore I do not know ... I am not calling him an America-hater or a non America-hater. I am claiming neutrality on the subject.

If barjockey diddles little kids, should we let him walk the streets without an ankle bracelet? I'm claiming neutrality on the subject, but I am curious just how far we should let this guy go if he's diddling little kids. I can't read his heart, but he may also hate America. I just don't know.

I know you're just being obtuse - but if I had an incredibly long history of admiring, respecting, hanging around, and looking up to kiddie-diddlers - you're damn right you could question my kiddie-diddler-ness.