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(Time)   Plan underway for Democrats to split Michigan's 156 delegates, party, country   (thepage.time.com) divider line 180
    More: Unlikely  
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1577 clicks; posted to Politics » on 13 Mar 2008 at 11:13 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-03-13 11:48:29 PM
I Said:

They will seat them to put someone over the 2025 necessary.

Wouldn't work that way. With Michigan and Florida voting again it pushes the required delegates to 2208.
 
2008-03-13 11:49:18 PM
Stupid Floppy Clownshoes: And besides, both states are too terribly peninsular to matter anyway.

Lisa: He said it was just a name!
Man: What he meant is that Monster Island is actually a peninsula.
 
2008-03-13 11:50:15 PM
Remove all Republicans: Nikorasu552: /florida voter
//still wish they wouldnt count our votes

Why not? It was legitimate election and you can't argue that a candidate's name wasn't on the ballot. I'm frankly afraid to revote because I'm almost certain your psychotic Republicans would put Guiliani in for some bizarre reason if you had the chance.


For the painfully obvious reason that Obama drastically closes the gap between he and Clinton when he gets a chance to campaign - as seen in every state including Ohio and Texas.
 
2008-03-13 11:50:23 PM
Murkanen: Wouldn't work that way. With Michigan and Florida voting again it pushes the required delegates to 2208.

Is that really the case? God farking dammit!

Then fark it. I'm back on the side of "Don't seat them and never let Floridians vote again. Put Michigan in the penalty box"
 
2008-03-13 11:53:02 PM
I'd rather see Hillary win both states by 20 points, so long as it was a fair primary/cacus. Even if that meant more fighting and more drama in Denver. At least the voters get their voices heard.

Splitting 50-50 does nothing more than allow the DNC to say, "See, we didn't disenfranchise you. We really don't care what you think, but you can show up in Denver."

And you can't just GIVE Flordia's delegates, even half of them, to Hillary.
 
2008-03-13 11:53:58 PM
I Said:

They will seat them to put someone over the 2025 necessary.

I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with it. If they add Michigan and Florida back in, the number of delegates needed goes up. But I could be wrong.
 
2008-03-13 11:54:33 PM
DimensionalPunk: Wasn't it already agreed by all sides that no votes would count? Re-count or nothing, end of story.

That was before Hillary turned out to be the winner in FL and MI.
 
2008-03-13 11:54:34 PM
Son_Dee: And you can't just GIVE Flordia's delegates, even half of them, to Hillary.

They're giving them based on the % of the popular vote that SHE WON in a primary.

God damn, you people are outrageous in your partisanship.
 
2008-03-13 11:55:15 PM
ODDwhun [TotalFark] Quote 2008-03-13 09:52:34 PM
I'm sure Obama's camp will be fine with this if this plan is actually offered up, it's benefits him more than anyone else.


I'm not sure it really benefits him the most. It isn't bad for him, but I'd say it benefits Hillary for these reasons:

a) Hillary would most likley lose Michigan in a re-vote. Getting 50/50 is better than she will get in a re-vote.

b) Hillary has more Michigan super delegates than Obama does, but they don't count unless the DNC changes the rules

c) No one will be able to make florida count unless Michigan is figured out. Hillary's argument to seat both Florida and Michigan makes no sense when Obama wasn't even on the ballot in michigan. However, fix michigan and there is a stronger argument for seating Florida as the results stood (still a bad argument in my mind, but one that makes some amount of sense)
 
2008-03-13 11:55:36 PM
TheSpaceAdmiral: I'm pretty sure that has nothing to do with it. If they add Michigan and Florida back in, the number of delegates needed goes up. But I could be wrong.

You're right. I was incorrect.
 
2008-03-13 11:56:35 PM
they should just choose pistols and duel....
on pay per view....
the money that is generated could then be donated to the children.....
i would pay top dollar to watch.... as long as its for the children....
 
2008-03-13 11:57:01 PM
Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-13 11:54:34 PM
Son_Dee: And you can't just GIVE Flordia's delegates, even half of them, to Hillary.

They're giving them based on the % of the popular vote that SHE WON in a primary.

God damn, you people are outrageous in your partisanship.


OTOH, it was a primary that everyone in Florida was told wasn't going to count. Thus, plenty of people either stayed home or voted in the Republican primary.

There is no easy way to fix this.

People are disenfranchised either way.
 
2008-03-13 11:58:29 PM
Son_Dee:
And you can't just GIVE Flordia's delegates, even half of them, to Hillary.


They aren't. They are assigning the delegates that were actually WON during the primary. But they will only count as half a vote. This gives Clinton a net gain of 19ish delegates in Fla.
 
2008-03-13 11:58:48 PM
Bill Frist: OTOH, it was a primary that everyone in Florida was told wasn't going to count. Thus, plenty of people either stayed home or voted in the Republican primary.

I feel no heartache for those who voted in the Republican primary. They don't deserve to have a voice. Those who stayed home got hosed - but there were local primaries going on as well as a state ballot initiative IIRC...If they couldn't be bothered to make it out for that, they aren't exactly the party faithful.
 
2008-03-13 11:59:34 PM
Why not? It was legitimate election and you can't argue that a candidate's name wasn't on the ballot.

HOw the fark is an election where most people stay home becuase they are told it won't count and where half the candidates aren't on the ballot a "legitimate" election?

I mean, are you retarded?

Michigan's turnout wasn't near what we would have expected relative to other states. Why? Becuase it wasn't a real election and many people stayed home.
 
2008-03-14 12:00:23 AM
Son_Dee: And you can't just GIVE Flordia's delegates, even half of them, to Hillary.

Shaggy_C: They're giving them based on the % of the popular vote that SHE WON in a primary.

God damn, you people are outrageous in your partisanship.


It is wrong to award delgates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket.
 
2008-03-14 12:01:01 AM


Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-13 11:58:48 PM
Bill Frist: OTOH, it was a primary that everyone in Florida was told wasn't going to count. Thus, plenty of people either stayed home or voted in the Republican primary.

I feel no heartache for those who voted in the Republican primary. They don't deserve to have a voice. Those who stayed home got hosed - but there were local primaries going on as well as a state ballot initiative IIRC...If they couldn't be bothered to make it out for that, they aren't exactly the party faithful.


The party faithful are the one's who caucus, but Hillary hates those.
 
2008-03-14 12:03:02 AM
Shaggy_C: How did she not play by the rules in Florida? The fundraising appearance was perfectly legal under DNC rules. All you're pissed about is the fact that she gets automatic name recognition. Boo-hoo. Those people have CNN - they got to watch the same damn coverage and debates that everyone in the country got to see. If you're mad because people switched parties so their vote would 'count', perhaps you're directing your anger at the wrong people. I mean, they betrayed their party - not the other way around.

Actually, I'm pissed because the citizens of Florida and Michigan weren't given the opportunity to vote in the primary for the candidate of their choice. Whose fault is it? The Democratic parties in those states and the legislatures/governors who allowed the primary date to be moved in violation of the rules.
 
2008-03-14 12:03:07 AM

That would be like the GOP suddenly deciding last december that the Iowa Straw Poll would be used officially to determine the GOP nominee.


Exactly. There are reasons the results of straw polls are different than the results of real elections. There are reasons the results of opinion polls are different than legit elections.

Either have a legit by the rules election or don't and discount the state. But don't farking have a fake election that you tell people doesn't count and then suddenly say it counts.
 
2008-03-14 12:04:46 AM
Cowboy Spencer Quote 2008-03-14 12:03:02 AM
Actually, I'm pissed because the citizens of Florida and Michigan weren't given the opportunity to vote in the primary for the candidate of their choice.


Serious question: Why the fark does that piss you off?

Are you "pissed" that the remaining republican states don't get to voice their opinion, since JOhn McCain is already the nominee?

Are you "pissed" that in 90% of primaries we have the nominee is decided before all the states have voted thus making numorous states not have an opportunity to help pick the nominee?

If not, why would you be pissed about FL and MI?
 
2008-03-14 12:05:23 AM
Mr Logo: It is wrong to award delgates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket.

1) His name was on the ballot
2) He IS being awarded delegates, just less than Hillary in proportion to what each of them won
 
2008-03-14 12:06:19 AM
Bill Frist: Serious question: Why the fark does that piss you off?

Heh. Good question.
 
2008-03-14 12:06:39 AM
Mr Logo:
It is wrong to award delegates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket. he followed the rules and she setup a grade school popularity contest:

Do you vote for me? _Yes _No (No means Yes)


Kinda FTFY.
 
2008-03-14 12:06:49 AM


Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-14 12:05:23 AM
Mr Logo: It is wrong to award delgates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket.

1) His name was on the ballot
2) He IS being awarded delegates, just less than Hillary in proportion to what each of them won


It still was not a real election.

Seating them based on that taited vote would be an insult to everything this country is supposed to stand for. I say that as an Obama supporter EVEN THOUGH I think a Florida re-vote would hurt Obama more (because Hillary would probably still win, if not by as much, giving her momentum in june)
 
2008-03-14 12:07:01 AM
Cowboy Spencer: Actually, I'm pissed because the citizens of Florida and Michigan weren't given the opportunity to vote in the primary for the candidate of their choice. Whose fault is it? The Democratic parties in those states and the legislatures/governors who allowed the primary date to be moved in violation of the rules.

In Florida they got to vote for the candidate of their choice. Michigan, yes, you have a point, but I guess it depends on what they decide - if they're happy with it, let it go. I'm tired of this issue coming up against Obama again and again.
 
2008-03-14 12:09:00 AM
Bill Frist: It still was not a real election.

1.4 million Floridians disagree with you.

Hillary Clinton 870,986 49.77%
Barack Obama 576,214 32.93%
 
2008-03-14 12:09:07 AM
Shaggy_C: Mr Logo: It is wrong to award delgates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket.

1) His name was on the ballot
2) He IS being awarded delegates, just less than Hillary in proportion to what each of them won


I believe he was talking about Michigan. Clinton was the only name on the ballot.
 
2008-03-14 12:10:28 AM
McWattisdead: I believe he was talking about Michigan. Clinton was the only name on the ballot.

If that's the case, I withdraw my comment, but in context I'm pretty sure he meant Florida.
 
2008-03-14 12:11:08 AM
Shaggy_C

they aren't exactly the party faithful.

You are retarded.

That is all.
 
2008-03-14 12:11:19 AM
Bill Frist: OTOH, it was a primary that everyone in Florida was told wasn't going to count. Thus, plenty of people either stayed home or voted in the Republican primary.

And without a vigorous campaign process, the voters were not exposed to the candidate's views on important local issues (getting punks off the lawn, affordable bowel control products, etc.)

On the other side of that coin, if they execute a re-do, the results don't represent the results that would have occurred on Super Tuesday, either, since suddenly the votes count like a motherfarker.
 
2008-03-14 12:11:44 AM
Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-14 12:09:00 AM
Bill Frist: It still was not a real election.

1.4 million Floridians disagree with you.


What the hell are you talking about?

Just because someone casts some type of vote doesn't make something a real election.

The other day I asked some friends where we should eat dinner at. That doesn't mean I just held an election and declared Bill's Pizza Shack the best restaurant in the world because 3 of the 5 raised their hands.


People vote different when they have a real election and when they know the election doesn't really count.
 
2008-03-14 12:11:54 AM
Echoic: You are retarded.

Fark Rule #148: When you don't have a decent argument, resort to namecalling.
 
2008-03-14 12:12:45 AM
Bill Frist: a) Hillary would most likley lose Michigan in a re-vote. Getting 50/50 is better than she will get in a re-vote.

Really? Are there polls on this? I thought Michigan was a little Ohio-ish in population composition. I will admit I am ignorant of this though.
 
2008-03-14 12:13:09 AM
Bill Frist: People vote different when they have a real election and when they know the election doesn't really count.

Of course - but the vote DID count for many local offices. Should we invalidate the results of those races too?
 
2008-03-14 12:13:47 AM

On the other side of that coin, if they execute a re-do, the results don't represent the results that would have occurred on Super Tuesday, either, since suddenly the votes count like a motherfarker.


So what though? It isn't like Florida had to vote on Super tuesday. They could have held their primary now anyway.

Although you do have a point that it seems unfair to toss a pro-clinton state suddenly into play at the end of the election.


These states should either be split 50-50 both ways or they should have re-do caucuses (caucuses because they represent only the party faithful and they are much cheaper)
 
2008-03-14 12:14:47 AM
Shaggy_C: Of course - but the vote DID count for many local offices. Should we invalidate the results of those races too?

I am pretty sure this would make some property owners mad.
 
2008-03-14 12:14:54 AM


Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-14 12:13:09 AM
Bill Frist: People vote different when they have a real election and when they know the election doesn't really count.

Of course - but the vote DID count for many local offices. Should we invalidate the results of those races too?


Where Floridians told those races counted?
Were the candidates given the opportunity to campaign like they were normal elections?

If yes, then the two cases aren't similar at all.

If no... then what the fark is wrong with Florida?
 
2008-03-14 12:15:25 AM
McWattisdead: Mr Logo:
It is wrong to award delegates to Hillary without awarding any to Obama simply because he justifiably didn't have his name on the ticket. he followed the rules and she setup a grade school popularity contest:

Do you vote for me? _Yes _No (No means Yes)

Kinda FTFY.



Oh I thought his name wan't on the ballot in florida. So he just didn't campaign there?
 
2008-03-14 12:15:44 AM
Shaggy_C: I feel no heartache for those who voted in the Republican primary. They don't deserve to have a voice. Those who stayed home got hosed - but there were local primaries going on as well as a state ballot initiative IIRC...If they couldn't be bothered to make it out for that, they aren't exactly the party faithful.

Really? This is the official Presidential Democratic Party ballot for Manatee county (my county): Link (new window)

There's the presidential pick (which didn't matter since we were told Florida delegates weren't going to be seated) and a constitutional amendment on property tax that doesn't apply to me. That's it.

I didn't go vote because there was nothing there for me to vote on, but to you my voice doesn't matter because I'm not a "party faithful"? Fark you Shaggy_C. And try not to speak of things you know little about.
 
2008-03-14 12:17:12 AM
McWattisdead Quote 2008-03-14 12:12:45 AM
Bill Frist: a) Hillary would most likley lose Michigan in a re-vote. Getting 50/50 is better than she will get in a re-vote.

Really? Are there polls on this? I thought Michigan was a little Ohio-ish in population composition. I will admit I am ignorant of this though.


Hillary barely got a majority with no campaigning and no one else on the ballot.

The state also has a pretty lage African-American population (14% of the population, so probably over 20% of the democratic primary)
 
2008-03-14 12:19:30 AM
Bill Frist: Where Floridians told those races counted?
Were the candidates given the opportunity to campaign like they were normal elections?


Here are all the different things Florida democrats voted for:
Orlando Mayor, City Commission
Florida Property Tax & Slot Machines Referendums
Winter Park City Commission
Florida Legislature
Winter Garden Mayor, City Commission
St. Cloud Mayor, City Council
Kissimmee Referendums
Casselberry Referendums
DeLand Referendums
Osceola County School Board Proposition


So, do none of those count either?
 
2008-03-14 12:21:23 AM
Unright: I didn't go vote because there was nothing there for me to vote on, but to you my voice doesn't matter because I'm not a "party faithful"? Fark you Shaggy_C. And try not to speak of things you know little about.

Don't tell me off. There were plenty of local races - maybe not in your area. But that doesn't mean the results in other areas don't count. Sorry pal.
 
2008-03-14 12:22:22 AM
Shaggy_C: Bill Frist: Where Floridians told those races counted?
Were the candidates given the opportunity to campaign like they were normal elections?

Here are all the different things Florida democrats voted for:
[...]
So, do none of those count either?


If count if you happen to be in Orange County, Florida. Not if you're in Anywhere Else, Florida.
 
2008-03-14 12:23:09 AM
Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-14 12:19:30 AM
Bill Frist: Where Floridians told those races counted?
Were the candidates given the opportunity to campaign like they were normal elections?

Here are all the different things Florida democrats voted for:
Orlando Mayor, City Commission
Florida Property Tax & Slot Machines Referendums
Winter Park City Commission
Florida Legislature
Winter Garden Mayor, City Commission
St. Cloud Mayor, City Council
Kissimmee Referendums
Casselberry Referendums
DeLand Referendums
Osceola County School Board Proposition

So, do none of those count either?


Stop being an idiot, Shaggy.

I refer you again to my 2 questions.

Was everyone told those elections didn't count and thus your vote didn't matter on them or where they told they did count and your vote would decide the matters?

Answer: They were told they counted.

Secondly, were the candidates (or advocate groups) allowed to campaign, debate, flier, organize and do everything else that a real election involves?

Answer: Yes.


Thus, there are no similarities between the fake Democratic primary and the real referendums and other elections.

The Democratic primary was fake because the DNC said the votes didn't count and because no one was allowed to actual campaign. Neither of those things apply to the other elections.


You are really pwning yourself today Shaggy_C, what's wrong?
 
2008-03-14 12:25:10 AM
Bill Frist: Are you "pissed" that the remaining republican states don't get to voice their opinion, since JOhn McCain is already the nominee?

Yes. See my profile.

Shaggy_C: In Florida they got to vote for the candidate of their choice. Michigan, yes, you have a point, but I guess it depends on what they decide - if they're happy with it, let it go. I'm tired of this issue coming up against Obama again and again.

The bottom line is that you can't tell primary voters that the votes won't count, and then later come back and try to count them. The primary election results in those two states are invalid. Either do it over, split them evenly, or don't count them at all.
 
2008-03-14 12:25:22 AM
Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-14 12:21:23 AM
Unright: I didn't go vote because there was nothing there for me to vote on, but to you my voice doesn't matter because I'm not a "party faithful"? Fark you Shaggy_C. And try not to speak of things you know little about.

Don't tell me off. There were plenty of local races - maybe not in your area. But that doesn't mean the results in other areas don't count. Sorry pal.


This is one of the dumbest arguments I"ve ever seen on fark. You are better than this Shaggy.

"The grapes on the dining table are fake"
"WTF! You're telling me all the food on this table is fake"
"No, dude. Just saying the grapes are. They are plastic."
"This table has a pad of butter, a basket of rolls, a turkey and a bowl of green beans. You are telling me all that food is plastic? None of it is real food?"
"uh...."
 
2008-03-14 12:26:15 AM
Unright: If count if you happen to be in Orange County, Florida. Not if you're in Anywhere Else, Florida.

I'm sorry you don't consider a Constitutional Amendment important enough to vote on. And I'm glad that voting for president once every four years makes you feel like a 'model citizen', but I stand by my statement that party faithful care about the whole party, not just the president. The source I had there was just for Orlando...I'm sure if I wanted to bother, I can come up with plenty of other local elections that were decided that day all around the state.
 
2008-03-14 12:26:52 AM
Shaggy_C: Don't tell me off. There were plenty of local races - maybe not in your area. But that doesn't mean the results in other areas don't count. Sorry pal.

What are you trying to say? That delegates should be given to Hillary on a county-by-county basis depending if there were other things on the ballots?

The DNC waved a yellow flag for the Florida race, Hillary can't retroactively claim victory just because she broke the rules and kept racing.
 
2008-03-14 12:27:13 AM
but I stand by my statement that party faithful care about the whole party, not just the president.

No one who voted for Hillary Clinton cares about the Democratic party, so your argument is invalid from the start.
 
2008-03-14 12:27:31 AM
Bill Frist: Thus, there are no similarities between the fake Democratic primary and the real referendums and other elections.

The Democratic primary was fake because the DNC said the votes didn't count and because no one was allowed to actual campaign. Neither of those things apply to the other elections.


So the fact that they were all on the same ballot on the same day makes no difference?
 
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