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(National Review)   If you just pumped two bullets into your sister's head in a Muslim "honor killing," don't call emergency services and brag about it. Unless, like you're this guy, you're Palestinian, in which case it's A-OK   (corner.nationalreview.com) divider line 800
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33222 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2008 at 3:14 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-03-12 01:27:54 PM
kronicfeld: Ah, yes, the old "moral relativism" canard, and the straw men who espouse it. Way to take down that imaginary enemy, you brave warriors.

No kidding. I love how attempting to unravel the environmental underpinnings of undesired behavior in order to stop it translates into acceptance of and support for those behaviors in some peoples' minds. Clearly the only morally acceptable solution is to ignore the causal factors at the societal level and relish the feelings of superiority and two minutes' hate these incidents engender.
 
2008-03-12 01:29:05 PM
Tatsuma: Ryan2065: Now you are just behing hard headed... I'll give a quick example off the top of my head. A literal translation of the Bible allowed the slave trade many years ago.

Actually, you prbably have a point about Xianity, it can be perverted into something it isn't because there is no legalistic background to the Bible.

Unlike Islam and Judaism, where things are codified and you know exactly what you can, and can't do.


So every Jew and every Muslim has the same beliefs and the same interpretation of their books?

Tatsuma: Has nothing like this happened with the Jews?

No, because of the Oral Law which regulates how we interpret the Bible, etc..


So what did the Jews of that time think of the slave trade?
 
2008-03-12 01:29:27 PM
sigdiamond2000: In other words, you don't know who or where they are, but you're pretty sure they exist and are ruining Western civilization.

No, I know who many of them are, but I'm just wondering if you're asking me to quote people who hold the view that honor killings are ok and are holding public positions
 
2008-03-12 01:29:38 PM
kronicfeld: Like the lizard people and the Rothschilds.

As a total side note, the whole though of the "lizard people that are running Western Civilization" is absolutely farking hilarious to me.
 
2008-03-12 01:31:25 PM
Ryan2065: So every Jew and every Muslim has the same beliefs and the same interpretation of their books?

How did we jump from Islam and Judaism to "Every Jew and Muslim who's ever lived"?

Just because a Jew holds idea that are contrary to Judaism doesn't make these ideas Judaism

So what did the Jews of that time think of the slave trade?

You're asking the Jew on the street, or religious authorities?
 
2008-03-12 01:31:27 PM
Tatsuma: sigdiamond2000: OK...can you name names in those arenas? That's not against the posting guidelines, is it?

What do you mean, exactly? Name people who what? Came out publicly and said that FGM is a-ok?

I said these people hold extremely relativist views, not that they are complete retards


Tatsuma: And yes, there are plenty of people on Fark that I can name who said that cutting off the clitoris of a little girl, as long as it didn't happen in their own country, was fine because it was part of their culture, the same goes for honor killings and pedophilia.

Here's the part where you can admit that you've been called on a dubious claim and clarify, or you can move the goalposts and look like someone who deserves zero credibility in any discussion.
 
2008-03-12 01:32:25 PM
KaponoFor3: As a total side note, the whole though of the "lizard people that are running Western Civilization" is absolutely farking hilarious to me.

I know, I mean LGF doesn't have that much infl-

Hmm, nevermind
 
2008-03-12 01:34:10 PM
Tatsuma: No, I know who many of them are, but I'm just wondering if you're asking me to quote people who hold the view that honor killings are ok and are holding public positions

I just wanted some names.
 
2008-03-12 01:36:23 PM
Tatsuma: Just because a Jew holds idea that are contrary to Judaism doesn't make these ideas Judaism

Just because a Christian holds an idea that are contrary to Christianity doesn't make these ideas Christian.

Just because a Muslim holds an idea that are contrary to Islam doesn't make these ideas Islamic.

Just because an Atheist holds an idea that are contrary to Atheism doesn't make these ideas Atheistic.

There. World peace can now begin.
 
2008-03-12 01:38:44 PM
kronicfeld: Like the lizard people and the Rothschilds.

www.moviecritic.ca
 
2008-03-12 01:39:40 PM
Tatsuma: How did we jump from Islam and Judaism to "Every Jew and Muslim who's ever lived"?

This is only my fourth post. Please try to keep up. I'll give you a quick overview.

I brought up the idea that Islam is just like the other Abrahamic religions in that how literal you translate their texts allows for all sorts of things. You then claimed this was not the case for the Christians or the Jews and then I brought up the slave trade that was going on a few years back (two hundred or so) and how Christianity said their Bible allowed it. You then claimed this happened with the Christians but the Jews have an Oral Code which regulates how you interpret the Bible, so it wouldn't happen with you guys. So I asked how you guys responded to the slave trade when it was going on.

You either have a short attention span or are dodging the question.

Tatsuma: Just because a Jew holds idea that are contrary to Judaism doesn't make these ideas Judaism

Right, I don't care about one or two odd balls, I'm talking about a society of people and how they responded to something as a group. Were the Jews for or against the slave trade many years ago?

Tatsuma: So what did the Jews of that time think of the slave trade?

You're asking the Jew on the street, or religious authorities?


Either
 
2008-03-12 01:39:55 PM
Cagey B: Here's the part where you can admit that you've been called on a dubious claim and clarify, or you can move the goalposts and look like someone who deserves zero credibility in any discussion.

Start here, just ctrl-f "cultural mores" for a defense of homosexual pedophilia as acceptable and normal and that Western society is too backward to realize it.

Also, there's a defense of cannibalism further down

Let me scour the Farkives some more
 
2008-03-12 01:47:36 PM
Plenty of people defending pedophilia or the desire to watch animated children having sex as normal and something that Westerners are too uptight to understand in yesterday's thread about Japan

Open any threads about a (female) teacher farking a (male) student and you will find scores and scores of people defending the idea of adults having sex with 13-14 year old children

Open any threads about circumcision and you'll find people defending FGM

etc... etc...

Have you people been Farking at all in the last 7 years or so?!
 
2008-03-12 01:49:42 PM
Tatsuma: Plenty of people defending pedophilia or the desire to watch animated children having sex as normal and something that Westerners are too uptight to understand in yesterday's thread about Japan

Watching animated "children" having sex != pedophilia.

Where did you get that infinite supply of straw?
 
2008-03-12 01:51:06 PM
Jon Snow: Fixed for accuracy.

Most see themselves as palestinians.

Except when it's time to collect welfare, social security or seek medical treatment. Then they are israelis.

This disgusting shiat happens twice a month or so. The most disturbing thing to me was the fact that his family and friends came to congratulate him on a job well done.
 
2008-03-12 01:52:33 PM
Kyosuke: Watching animated "children" having sex != pedophilia.

... I think I should introduce you to my friend "or". "Or" is used to link two different ideas. Thus, when I say 'I want apples or bananas", I'm not saying that apples and bananas are the same.
 
2008-03-12 01:53:56 PM
TappingTheVein: Most see themselves as palestinians.

Except when it's time to collect welfare, social security or seek medical treatment. Then they are israelis.


They'll wave the Palestinian flag, until they hear that the Palestinian Authority might become their government, and then they just run as fast as they can to apply for an Israeli citizenship

That won't stop them from trying to lynch municipal workers, or occasionally come into a school and kill students, though

This disgusting shiat happens twice a month or so. The most disturbing thing to me was the fact that his family and friends came to congratulate him on a job well done.

Agreed, this was pretty disturbing
 
2008-03-12 01:55:28 PM
Tatsuma: .. I think I should introduce you to my friend "or". "Or" is used to link two different ideas. Thus, when I say 'I want apples or bananas", I'm not saying that apples and bananas are the same.

Perhaps you should read the sentence you wrote again. You equated them in the context of the sentence, regardless of the conjunction you used.

Go practice your high school debate tactics somewhere else.
 
2008-03-12 01:58:17 PM
If I say "People on Fark will defend any crimes, stealing a pack of gum or murder" that doesn't mean I consider murder and stealing a pack of gum on the same level

For fark's sake, I'm actually going to do something more productive now.
 
2008-03-12 02:03:48 PM
I feel like honor killing a few people here. I didn't see one single lament for lost boobies. Oh, she lived? Go back to the regularly scheduled yelling.
 
2008-03-12 02:05:28 PM
muck4doo: Moral relativism is part of our culture. Most of the world is okay with this and understanding of it.

I'm more of a moral absolutist, I guess. "Do as you will, as long as you do not intentionally harm anyone."

No, I'm not a wiccan.

And for the Xians in the group, "...Love your neighbor as you love yourself. All (and I mean ALL) the laws and the prophets hang on these commandments."
 
2008-03-12 02:06:20 PM
TappingTheVein: Most see themselves as palestinians.

There's no such thing as a Palestinian. I've been told that over and over again on Fark.

This disgusting shiat happens twice a month or so. The most disturbing thing to me was the fact that his family and friends came to congratulate him on a job well done.

I agree, it's barbaric. Seems to happen more among Kurds and Palestinians than other groups where it is also practiced for some strange reason.
 
2008-03-12 02:12:33 PM
But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."-John 8:7

"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned.-Luke 6:37

1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.-Matthew 7:1-5


This is why moral relativism is prevailent in Western(Christian influenced)societies. Jesus started it.

/Jesus FTW!
 
2008-03-12 02:14:04 PM
Jon Snow: There's no such thing as a Palestinian. I've been told that over and over again on Fark.

There are those who decided to call themselves palestinians.
If they decide to call themselves "smurfs" tomorrow i'll refer to them as smurfs.

When you were talking about palestinians 100 years ago you were actually talking about the jews living in what is now Israel.
 
2008-03-12 02:16:18 PM
muck4doo: The family was right though, she is very hard headed.


I chuckled. And I suspect yours will be the only post I like in this thread.
 
2008-03-12 02:17:16 PM
TappingTheVein: When you were talking about palestinians 100 years ago you were actually talking about the jews living in what is now Israel.

There weren't any Jews living in "what is now Israel." 100 years ago. Just ask Tatsuma he'll tell you "it was no-man's land!"

/stupid.
 
2008-03-12 02:17:30 PM
Tatsuma: Plenty of people defending pedophilia or the desire to watch animated children having sex as normal and something that Westerners are too uptight to understand in yesterday's thread about Japan

Open any threads about a (female) teacher farking a (male) student and you will find scores and scores of people defending the idea of adults having sex with 13-14 year old children

Open any threads about circumcision and you'll find people defending FGM

etc... etc...

Have you people been Farking at all in the last 7 years or so?!


Huh...funny. I was in that Japan thread yesterday, and what I saw were a ton of people taking the position that a drawing of a child did not warrant the same legal sanctions as an actual child.

As for the teacher threads, you might have a point. But what exactly it has to do with the discussion at hand is dubious, since it's not at all to do with "moral relativism", since it's almost always U.S. teachers banging U.S. students.

I don't read the circumcision threads, admittedly, but if I were to hazard a guess, the posts you're referring to are probably of the "current circumcision procedures are just as bad as FGM" nature, which is not at all the same thing as what you're accusing "lots of Farkers" of saying.

In any event, this is a far, far cry from a list of any of the people you can supposedly name. What you're doing is throwing out dubious sources to back up a claim that is being repeatedly discredited.
 
2008-03-12 02:19:55 PM
cameroncrazy1984: There weren't any Jews living in "what is now Israel." 100 years ago. Just ask Tatsuma he'll tell you "it was no-man's land!"

There were people living in that area but not many. It was a malaria infested shiathole and quite deserted.
 
2008-03-12 02:20:40 PM
Tatsuma: Plenty of people defending pedophilia or the desire to watch animated children having sex as normal and something that Westerners are too uptight to understand in yesterday's thread about Japan

As one of the "defenders" most weren't defending the porn, but defending freedom of thought. Because I don't want some random guys in congress telling me what I'm thinking and that I'm going to jail over it.
 
2008-03-12 02:27:33 PM
CrankMyBlueSax: What is the argument that explains why it is important to be tolerant of other cultures again?

My sociology professor preaches this kind of bullshiat
 
2008-03-12 02:29:04 PM
KaponoFor3: Muslim "honor" killings -- something that moral relativists tell us we can't make moral judgments about and that cultural relativists tell us that the West can't criticize the culture that festers such acts.

Sure we can. It's just such criticism has to be done from the relativistic framework. EG: what is the nature of the "good" such killings seek to preserve, and is greater than the "good" that is lost by committing such a killing.

Tatsuma: Uh, moral relativism certainly isn't essential to civilization.

Really. That suggests two questions. First, under what circumstances is it impermissible for a small group or even an individual to commit an action, where it becomes permissible for a larger group to do so?

And second, how do you distinguish between tolerance and moral relativism?

Tatsuma: Actually, you prbably have a point about Xianity, it can be perverted into something it isn't because there is no legalistic background to the Bible.

Actually, there is; however, the authority of this legalistic background was rejected by the Protestant Reformation due to corruption in the implementation. The majority of the world's Christians are Roman Catholic, accepting the authority of Canon Law and the Petrine Apostolic Seat. The majority of non-Christian Catholics are one variety or another of Orthodox, with a parallel system of traditional interpretation.

KaponoFor3: But there are definitely those moral relativists who will attempt to explain away why, with our Western perspective of morals/rights/justice/equality, we should not be allowed to cast judgment on the value systems/customs of other cultures. I mean, you have to agree with that, right?

That there are such? Not quite; one may validly attempt to cast judgment on the value systems and customs of other cultures from within those frameworks, to the extent we understand them. Furthermore, most moral relativists will at least admit the possibility of defining a moral invariant independent of the relative moral frame of reference, similar to the speed of light in Special Relativity. However, there's not yet a good agreement on this, largely because most moral philosophers don't work with the rigor of the mathematical philosophers.

I certainly don't agree; I conjecture Total Existence Failure might be a culturally invariant Bad Thing.
 
2008-03-12 02:32:17 PM
Tatsuma: Have you people been Farking at all in the last 7 years or so?!

Yes. But we like to make you do the dance, anyway. ;)
 
2008-03-12 02:37:25 PM
muck4doo: This is why moral relativism is prevalent in Western(Christian influenced)societies. Jesus started it.

And He was a Jew.

BLAME TEH J00Z!!!

/j/k Tats. ;)


abb3w: However, there's not yet a good agreement on this, largely because most moral philosophers don't work with the rigor of the mathematical philosophers.

I was told there wouldn't be any math...

Yes. All I have to contribute today is snark. I think I need another cup of coffee...
 
2008-03-12 02:38:00 PM
And to think...this hasn't even gone on the main page yet!

I should get some coffee *AND* popcorn. ;)
 
2008-03-12 02:43:11 PM
kronicfeld: It is not "moral relativism" to recognize that there is no such thing as an "absolute" morality, since morality arises from humans and society.

However, all human societies have some common moral elements. It can be conjectured that all societies capable of existence, even non-human ones, might also have some commonalities, in order to be able to function as "societies".

Mind you, finding or even proving the existence of such a framework is, as mathematicians say, "non-trivial".

CrankMyBlueSax: What is the argument that explains why it is important to be tolerant of other cultures again?

Because without it, the only possible state between cultures is a total war of extermination, and war is wasteful of resources. Besides which, a diverse ecology (whether of biology or of ideas) is more resilient and likely to survive ecological shocks.

Mind you, tolerance is another one of those things that's only a relative good, not an absolute invariant. Sometimes, total war can be the lesser evil.
 
2008-03-12 02:44:15 PM
KaponoFor3: Well, they did commit the crime in Israel, no? They have laws against honor killings, as do most Westernized societies.

So you're telling me that even with the apocalyptic havoc that moral relativism has wrought across Western society, nearly destroying it and shaking it to its very foundation, attempted murder is still illegal? Be still my heart! And here I was almost convinced by you and Tats that the world was ending. Saved by reality once again!
 
2008-03-12 02:48:29 PM
Tastes Like Chicken: attempted murder is still illegal?

... in Israel, yeah I'd assume it would be, as I think it would be in most Western societies. I wonder if the same is true in places where Sharia is the dominant legal matrix.
 
2008-03-12 02:50:04 PM
xanadian: And to think...this hasn't even gone on the main page yet!

I should get some coffee *AND* popcorn. ;)


Coffee-flavored popcorn? I'm going to go trademark the name "Colonel Grounds' Jittery Pop™" RIGHT NOW!
 
2008-03-12 02:53:14 PM
abb3w: Because without it, the only possible state between cultures is a total war of extermination, and war is wasteful of resources. Besides which, a diverse ecology (whether of biology or of ideas) is more resilient and likely to survive ecological shocks.

You're talking to the Glass Parking Lot people. Total Extermination is what they want.
 
2008-03-12 02:54:20 PM
xanadian: I was told there wouldn't be any math...

They lied.

Cagey B: I'm going to go trademark the name "Colonel Grounds' Jittery Pop™" RIGHT NOW!

FYI, my (non-lawyerly) understanding is you have to have the product in production before you can file the trademark... but a real lawyer can probably explain why I'm wrong.
 
2008-03-12 03:01:29 PM
abb3w: Because without it, the only possible state between cultures is a total war of extermination, and war is wasteful of resources.

It's not so much other cultures I find myself intolerant of, but rather stupidity.

I can has total war of extermination against stupid?
home.satx.rr.com
 
2008-03-12 03:05:05 PM
KaponoFor3: ... in Israel, yeah I'd assume it would be, as I think it would be in most Western societies. I wonder if the same is true in places where Sharia is the dominant legal matrix.

You're right, it wouldn't be illegal in countries that practiced Sharia. Point being that even with Western Society having been supposedly overrun with Moral Relativists, we still live by the same code of laws. Is your main problem that we don't invade other countries and enforce our laws on them? What's your solution? Total extermination? Homogeneity? Worldwide Laws enforced by a Global Government?

I agree that Honor Killings are horrible, same with FGM, and other barbaric practices. I dare you guys to find one mainstream person from Western Civilization who argues otherwise. And by that I don't mean some anonymous Fark User who said something one time in some Fark thread.

If Moral Relativism is really so widespread that it threatens the very foundation of our civilization, surely you can show it to me.
 
2008-03-12 03:09:00 PM
cameroncrazy1984: There weren't any Jews living in "what is now Israel." 100 years ago. Just ask Tatsuma he'll tell you "it was no-man's land!"

No, that's not what I'd say, but you're right, that was a pretty stupid post

Cagey B: In any event, this is a far, far cry from a list of any of the people you can supposedly name. What you're doing is throwing out dubious sources to back up a claim that is being repeatedly discredited.

No, I'm talking about people who defend adults having sex with children as being cultural ("In Japan they don't see the way we do") or FGM ("They've been doing it for centuries, who are we to stop them?") etc..

xanadian: Yes. But we like to make you do the dance, anyway. ;)

Good point

Tastes Like Chicken: Be still my heart! And here I was almost convinced by you and Tats that the world was ending. Saved by reality once again!

We never claimed that this behavior was tolerated HERE for the most part, but it was excused as something cultural in other places of the world, and thus tolerated.
 
2008-03-12 03:09:50 PM
Tastes Like Chicken: You're right, it wouldn't be illegal in countries that practiced Sharia. Point being that even with Western Society having been supposedly overrun with Moral Relativists, we still live by the same code of laws.

And thank god we do, right? The last thing we would want to do is live by a code of laws whereby moral judgments could not be made by the State (as that is essentially the basis of many laws on the books today).

Is your main problem that we don't invade other countries and enforce our laws on them? What's your solution? Total extermination? Homogeneity? Worldwide Laws enforced by a Global Government?

LOL FAILboat. Not at all my main problem -- maybe you think I'm Ann Coulter or something. My main problem is that cultures actually exist which do not condemn honor killings and even protect and encourage such heinous acts to take place. It's crazy. Things like honor killings are a large reason that some of the less educated populace views the Arab world as "uncivilized barbarians" (that and cutting people's heads off, filming it, etc.)

If Moral Relativism is really so widespread that it threatens the very foundation of our civilization, surely you can show it to me.

I never said that, I just said that such an attitude pisses me off.
 
2008-03-12 03:12:45 PM
Tastes Like Chicken: You're right, it wouldn't be illegal in countries that practiced Sharia. Point being that even with Western Society having been supposedly overrun with Moral Relativists, we still live by the same code of laws.

But with people like the Archbishop of Canterbury and his ilk, there are attempts to create different codes of laws for different people within Western society. Even in Canada, there are talks to establish legally-binding Sharia tribunals for Muslims for certain domains, for example.
 
2008-03-12 03:20:28 PM
Tastes Like Chicken: You're talking to the Glass Parking Lot people. Total Extermination is what they want.

But do they want TE just specifically for Islamics/brown-skins/whatever, for everyone who his in any way different, or do they simply want the total extermination of all life? Either way, while I may or may not agree, I'd certainly be interested in hearing their reasoning to see if I can follow it and identify what premises or inductions I explicitly disagree with.

Alas, such people generally find my asking for them to define things they consider "obvious" to be irritating enough to stalk off without finishing the discussion.
 
2008-03-12 03:21:01 PM
Any cartoons involved? fark Allah. fark God, too. And the Tooth Fairy.
 
2008-03-12 03:21:23 PM
KaponoFor3: Muslim "honor" killings -- something that moral relativists tell us we can't make moral judgments about and that cultural relativists tell us that the West can't criticize the culture that festers such acts. Pathetic.

Nice troll, but no.

I'm a moral relativist. All that means is I believe that the universe doesn't care any more about honor killings then it does about your 10% church tithe. It's simply the idea that morals are a societal construct, not an objective "truth".

As far as I'm concerned personally? It's attempted murder, put him in a jail (and the family that knew about it too).
 
2008-03-12 03:21:36 PM
KaponoFor3: Muslim "honor" killings -- something that moral relativists tell us we can't make moral judgments about and that cultural relativists tell us that the West can't criticize the culture that festers such acts. Pathetic.

I don't defend it, but I understand it. Honor to them is more important than life. People are expected to live by a 'code' and if if you break it, you die, even (especially) if you are family.

Its kind of like the mafia.
 
2008-03-12 03:22:00 PM
As for Moral Relativism killing Western Civilization, it's not killing like a bullet to the head, but killing like a cigarette. It's a slow process that makes us rot from the inside, a slow descent into death and not something that just happens fast.

The Roman Empire took centuries to crumble unto itself
 
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