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(Fox News)   House can't muster enough votes to override waterboarding veto. Our freedoms stay protected   (foxnews.com ) divider line
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8925 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Mar 2008 at 10:39 AM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



724 Comments     (+0 »)
 
 
2008-03-12 10:41:38 AM  
But it's so obviously evil!

Why does the Democrat Congress hate America?
 
2008-03-12 10:41:48 AM  
And Away we go...
 
2008-03-12 10:41:53 AM  
Shame on them.
 
2008-03-12 10:42:11 AM  
Don't mock drown me bro
 
2008-03-12 10:42:16 AM  
Do you feel safer now?
 
2008-03-12 10:42:19 AM  
www.mjsdisco.com
 
2008-03-12 10:42:24 AM  
Awesome, we now live in a country that openly condones torture.
 
2008-03-12 10:42:24 AM  
I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...
 
2008-03-12 10:42:28 AM  
"Mr. Speaker, I rise in somewhat reluctant support of this vote to override the President's veto of H.R. 2062, the Intelligence Authorization Act of 2008. Although I voted against this authorization when it first came to the floor, the main issue has now become whether we as a Congress are to condone torture as official U.S. policy or whether we will speak out against it. This bill was vetoed by the President because of a measure added extending the prohibition of the use of any interrogation treatment or technique not authorized by the United States Army Field Manual on Human Intelligence Collector Operations to the U.S. intelligence community. Opposing this prohibition is tantamount to endorsing the use of torture against those in United States Government custody.

"Mr. Speaker, we have all read the disturbing reports of individuals apprehended and taken to secret prisons maintained by the United States Government across the globe, tortured for months or even years, and later released without charge. Khaled al-Masri, for example, a German citizen, has recounted the story of his incarceration and torture by U.S. intelligence in a secret facility in Afghanistan. His horror was said to be simply a case of mistaken identity. We do not know how many more similar cases there may be, but clearly it is not in the interest of the United States to act in a manner so contrary to the values upon which we pride ourselves.

"My vote to override the President's veto is a vote to send a clear message that I do not think the United States should be in the business of torture. It is anti-American, immoral and counterproductive."

/yep, that was Ron Paul
//too late now!
 
2008-03-12 10:42:30 AM  
You know who else used 'enhanced interrogation techniques'?

They called it 'Verschärfte Vernehmung' (new window)
 
2008-03-12 10:42:42 AM  
Disgusting... just disgusting.
 
2008-03-12 10:43:02 AM  
Have they tried waterboarding? I hear that works well getting what you want.
 
2008-03-12 10:43:03 AM  
I think this thread should have the Benny Hill theme pumped into it somehow...
 
2008-03-12 10:43:38 AM  
img144.imageshack.us


Approves.
 
2008-03-12 10:43:55 AM  
I wonder what's it's like to have to wipe the brown off your broken nose every time the stupidest man in public office stops short.
 
2008-03-12 10:43:56 AM  
Well, now no one in the country has any excuse to not know the true nature of our glorious and sanctimonious "leaders".

Is it time yet?
 
2008-03-12 10:44:04 AM  
Good. What else are our interrogators going to do when they need to get that information? American lives depend on this practice people.
 
2008-03-12 10:44:08 AM  
Could care less anymore... I'm leaving! Goodbye!
 
2008-03-12 10:44:12 AM  
How long until the police get to use this for civilian interrogation? Can they combine this with the taser for full effect?
 
2008-03-12 10:44:18 AM  
You know who else thought torture was a good state policy...
 
2008-03-12 10:44:20 AM  
It's just an implementation of "Freedom Lite".
 
2008-03-12 10:44:25 AM  
charlatan brown: Awesome, we now have always lived in a country that openly condones torture.

Welcome to every country in the history of the planet.

oh and FTFY
 
2008-03-12 10:44:40 AM  
Don't be naive people....regardless of what's "allowed" there will always be torture to extract information.
 
2008-03-12 10:44:45 AM  
it would be nice to see who voted for / against.

it also be intesrting to see how many side issues were attached to this bill.

I never understand how a bill can have so many added issues attached to it with nothing to do with the main issue.
 
2008-03-12 10:44:55 AM  
Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?
 
2008-03-12 10:45:43 AM  
sirgrim: Have they tried waterboarding? I hear that works well getting what you want.

FTW
 
2008-03-12 10:45:44 AM  
UpstateMonkey: Don't be naive people....regardless of what's "allowed" there will always be torture to extract information.

Yes but it would be illegal.
 
2008-03-12 10:46:00 AM  
rjShadow: It's just an implementation of "Freedom Lite".

It does feel less filling!
 
2008-03-12 10:46:10 AM  
Dont worry farkers. I've got some help with teh popcorn.

www.hotrockn.com

/It's kettle corn though...
 
2008-03-12 10:46:18 AM  
Memes Ate My Balls: Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?


^THIS THIS THIS THIS
 
2008-03-12 10:46:50 AM  
What's next? Will we be a nation that condones elephant walks, panty raids? Oh the humanity, we are teh EVIL! Please love us Osama!
 
2008-03-12 10:46:52 AM  
The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.
 
2008-03-12 10:46:59 AM  
Memes Ate My Balls: Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?

Yes because making prisoners drink gasoline then shooting them is exactly the same as mock drowning them...

not to defend waterboarding, but seriously get a grip on reality
 
2008-03-12 10:47:09 AM  
Get over it.

We torture.

Your American ideals of the U.S. being the "good guys" is about 60 years outdated.


This is how things work.

See how far righteous indignation gets you geo-politically.
 
2008-03-12 10:47:20 AM  
Ammerrricaaa... FARK YEAH!
 
2008-03-12 10:47:34 AM  
Al Qaeda just sent us the fingers of four kidnapped Austrian tourists, but you guys make sure that Bushiatler doesn't pour water on anybody. That would be a real crime.
 
2008-03-12 10:47:35 AM  
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.
 
2008-03-12 10:47:38 AM  
tweekster: charlatan brown: Awesome, we now have always lived in a country that openly condones torture.

Welcome to every country in the history of the planet.

oh and FTFY


Operating word: "Openly"

Difference: legal vs. illegal
 
2008-03-12 10:47:51 AM  
from Wiki:

World War II
During World War II, Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, as well as the Gestapo,[31] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[32] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred, this included waterboarding consisted of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[33][34]


USA!!!!! USA!!!!!! USA! IM SO PROUD!!!!!!
 
2008-03-12 10:47:52 AM  
vernonFL: UpstateMonkey: Don't be naive people....regardless of what's "allowed" there will always be torture to extract information.

Yes but it would be illegal.


And that's stopped us before? And really, if we need to do it to get information out of a terrorist, so be it.
 
2008-03-12 10:48:31 AM  
1derful: Get over it.

We torture.

Your American ideals of the U.S. being the "good guys" is about 60 years outdated.


This is how things work.

See how far righteous indignation gets you geo-politically.


Do you honestly believe that right and wrong are irrelevant, and the government should do whatever necessary to strengthen the State?
 
US1
2008-03-12 10:48:32 AM  
I trust Cheney and our President and then Hillary to know who to torture.
 
2008-03-12 10:48:36 AM  
Memes Ate My Balls: Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?

We had to kill Saddam because he tired to 'kill my daddy [incredulous snort]', and fight evil doers, mushroom clouds, and islamo-communist-nazis that want to swear on the Koran when taking public office. WMDs.
 
2008-03-12 10:48:43 AM  
FTA: The vetoed legislation would have limited the CIA to using only the 19 interrogation methods approved in the Army field manual. That guidebook bans the use of waterboarding, a technique that simulates drowning.

Ok, so... anyone know where I can find these 19 interrogation methods? Does George just want to round that up for an even 20?
 
2008-03-12 10:49:00 AM  
Just to be sure, wedgies and indian-burns are still legal too, right?
 
2008-03-12 10:49:06 AM  
i can't wait for the day that all the other countries start looking upon us the same way that everyone looked upon germany (granted, we did not find out about a majority of the atrocities until later in the war).
on the other side though, if a terrorist suspect is known to hold evidence of a major attack that will endanger a large amount of citizens (not 3,000, but many more), then i think we should do what it takes to get the info from him.

this is the catch 22 that i think most americans feel--constitution vs common sense.
 
2008-03-12 10:49:58 AM  
George W. Bush: "We Do Not Torture" (Except when we do). He isn't even trying to hide the lies anymore.

It is a sad day in America when we have lowered our standards to match the worst dictatorships in the world.
 
2008-03-12 10:49:59 AM  
joethorne.: Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

The intelligence you get by torturing someone isn't accurate?

People will say *anything* to stop from being tortured.
 
2008-03-12 10:50:01 AM  
joethorne.
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?
I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.


Ummm, how do you know it is terrorists that are being tortured?
 
2008-03-12 10:50:19 AM  
img514.imageshack.us
 
2008-03-12 10:50:22 AM  
In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using torture on terrorists. The problem is we have no way to be sure people in our custody are not innocent. I would rather the United States be attacked again than be a country that uses torture on the innocent.
 
2008-03-12 10:50:33 AM  
I want a list of people who did not vote to override the veto. I have half a mind to send a nasty letter to all of them.

Anyway have a quick list (if not I know how to get it myself, it will just have to wait until I get home from work and have time to peruse what hell they are doing over there in the house)
 
2008-03-12 10:50:49 AM  
Diggin: Could care less anymore... I'm leaving! Goodbye!

farm4.static.flickr.com

Not mine, but still applicable.
 
2008-03-12 10:50:56 AM  
Shaggy_C : The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.


4/10

Lack of punctuation and bad spelling really sold you out.
 
2008-03-12 10:51:05 AM  
Shaggy_C: The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.

6/10

You were docked points for the incorrect spelling of terrorist and the exclaimation point, but otherwise good job
 
2008-03-12 10:51:13 AM  
UpstateMonkey: And that's stopped us before? And really, if we need to do it to get information out of a terrorist, so be it

What if that information is not accurate?

I bet that I could make you admit to something that you didn't actually do by torturing you.
 
2008-03-12 10:51:18 AM  
UpstateMonkey

Don't be naive people....regardless of what's "allowed" there will always be torture to extract information.


While it is true there is a time and place where certain individuals will do whatever they feel they must do to extract vital information to protect the people they took an oath to protect, it should not be a set policy to condone torture.

This is a means to a justifiable end, right? At least, so says the Jihadi ape when he rips open a journalist's throat.

If I were in a situation where torturing one man would save a dozen others, I would certainly do so, but it truly is anti-American to condone torture.
 
2008-03-12 10:51:46 AM  
markb289: It is a sad day in America when we have lowered our standards to match the worst dictatorships in the world.

The worst dictatorships usually use a bit more violence when it comes to torture.
oh and they kill them afterwards.
You might as well have said he is hitler and been done with it.
 
2008-03-12 10:52:10 AM  
vernonFL: joethorne.: Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

The intelligence you get by torturing someone isn't accurate?

People will say *anything* to stop from being tortured.


Yes, especially any kind of lie to stop the pain.
 
2008-03-12 10:52:11 AM  
zelachang: Good. What else are our interrogators going to do when they need to get that information? American lives depend on this practice people.

I think your tune will change when they come for you.
 
US1
2008-03-12 10:52:11 AM  
I think instead of a court to prove whether someone is guilty, we should just waterboard them until they give the right answer. It would be much cheaper and the courts would be more efficient.
 
2008-03-12 10:52:24 AM  
bottsicus: 4/10

fernandez: 6/10

With your scores combined, I'm a perfect 10!
 
2008-03-12 10:52:38 AM  
I'm willing to state, right here, that I would vote for a Republican, give money to a Republican, and convince other people to vote Republican if that particular candidate would rename our country the Imperialist States of America.

Seriously. Can we stop pretending we're a democracy and not an empire? I hate everything that's happened in the last eight years (and a lot that's happened in the span of my lifetime), but I could get behind it (kind of) if we were honest.

I really just want somebody to come out and say: "You know what? Yeah, we're an Empire. We don't care about the rest of the world. Frak those guys. They're brown. And not American. Therefore less than us. We're going to be hypocrites, demand you not pollute while we contribute more to pollution than everybody else combined, we're going to use most of the world's resources with 5% of the world's population, we're going to torture people, and we're going to do it all while keeping our own citizens fat, happy and complacent. And if you don't like it we'll bomb you back to the motherfraking stone-age. This is America, not the United States of the Whole Damned World with Hearts and Flowers and Hugs for everybody. Now pay us tribute, preferably wood. We're running out of trees."

That's somebody I'd vote for twice.

(Important note: the only reason I would support this endeavor is so that maybe, once we're officially an empire, the rest of the world would finally rise up against us. Hardcore liberal. :) But seriously there's something to be said for honesty.
 
2008-03-12 10:52:55 AM  
Just because I twist your arm and make you call me Uncle, doesn't make me your Uncle.
 
2008-03-12 10:53:08 AM  
joethorne.: Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.


a) It accomplishes nothing, because it gathers no reliable information. The poster child that the pro-torture people hold up is KSM, who admitted under torture that he planned 9/11... and shot JFK, MLK, and was the one who chopped down the cherry tree, not Washington.

b) It makes us look really bad internationally. This plays directly into the terrorist's hands, in that we become less of a sympathetic character and can't rely as much on foreign aid. Further, it makes it easier for the terrorists to recruit new followers - they simply have to point at how we openly torture their neighbors and friends, just like Saddam did. New boss same as the old boss, no?

Two arguments not at all based on "it's wrong".
 
2008-03-12 10:53:33 AM  
JewZeppy: joethorne.
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?
I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.

Ummm, how do you know it is terrorists that are being tortured?


I didn't say terrorists, I said "in the arena of terrorism". That would include those people interrogated for information relating to terrorist activities.
 
2008-03-12 10:53:40 AM  
Shaggy_C: bottsicus: 4/10

fernandez: 6/10

With your scores combined, I'm a perfect 10!


...out of 20. Or Captain Planet. Either way.
 
2008-03-12 10:54:01 AM  
Shaggy_C

bottsicus: 4/10

fernandez: 6/10

With your scores combined, I'm a perfect 10!


let no one ever accused you of not being an optimist
 
2008-03-12 10:54:04 AM  
Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

Here you go. (new window)
 
2008-03-12 10:54:05 AM  
OlafTheBent: Disgusting... just disgusting.

Guess you haven't seen the al-Quaida book of torture. I would provide a link to it but it would probably be "too racy" or some such lib shiat.
 
2008-03-12 10:54:18 AM  
Shaggy_C: The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.

3/10

Way, way overplayed. You have to start subtle and slowly raise the dial.
 
2008-03-12 10:54:48 AM  
"Bush said the attorney general has deemed waterboarding legal under domestic and international law."

imagecache2.allposters.com
 
2008-03-12 10:55:29 AM  
Its pathetic these republican insist on using techniques from the Spanish Inquisition.

Here's some more good ideas from the past going to the Gulag Gitmo.

upload.wikimedia.org

Family Values Conservatives

staffwww.fullcoll.edu

www.channel4.com

The military today loves the black KKK hoods.

a0.vox.com
 
2008-03-12 10:55:40 AM  
bring up the issue again in a year.

/fark you, george bush.
 
2008-03-12 10:55:56 AM  
tweekster: charlatan brown: Awesome, we now have always lived in a country that openly condones torture.

Welcome to every country in the history of the planet.

oh and FTFY


Every country in the history of the planet openly condones torture? Are you sure about that?

/hint: no
 
2008-03-12 10:56:05 AM  
shorewelcome.com

Sweet! I love water boarding!
 
2008-03-12 10:56:11 AM  
If anyone ever get a chance watch
The History of Torture Devices
I think it is a Modern Marvels episode on The History Channel
 
2008-03-12 10:56:14 AM  
"Could Care Less" is a shorthand way of saying "I could care less but not much less".

"Couldn't care less" is "I am humanly incapable caring less". The Kelvin Zero of caring, so to speak.

Both are correct. Like Pop and Soda. Manual and Stick.
 
2008-03-12 10:56:16 AM  
I think this is a clever ploy to remind people of what's going on in November.

Bill is introduced that bans torture.
Democrats will vote for this, as will some Republicans.
Everybody knows Bush will veto it.
Democrats will try to overturn veto but will fail because of Republicans.

This just political positioning for the elections to come. The challengers for Republican seats are sure to bring up "Incumbent X refused to overturn the veto, which is the same thing as a vote for torture."

There's no way the interrogators will stop using waterboarding. They'll just do it in secret.

Don't get me wrong. I don't like torture either. But the Reps, I think, have really shot themselves in the foot here.
 
2008-03-12 10:56:30 AM  
aycu16.webshots.com
 
2008-03-12 10:56:31 AM  
Crude: But it's so obviously evil!

Why does the Democrat Congress hate America?


Are you kidding? They love America! They love it so much, they're willing to hand over the morals and ethics that made this country great at one time just to keep their jobs.

Say it slowly:
Our country is about to legalize a form of torture, and therefore violate the Geneva Conventions. We now have a dilemma - do we pull ourselves from the Geneva Conventions, pressure the U.N. to change the Geneva Conventions, or somehow pressure our elected officials to pull their collective heads out of their asses and realize that sometime, somewhere, you have to draw a hard line?

Not everything is negotiable. This is one of those items. Waterboarding is torture - we've tried and prosecuted those who have performed this act in the past, and we're once again trying to give retroactive immunity to those who committed a war crime, to avoid the utter embarrassment of having Americans being tried as war criminals.

I mourn for what we once were - a nation of ideals, upheld by brave men and women who stood for what was right. Now, we're a bunch of puppy-pitching, bigoted, torturous savages abroad, backed by spineless yes-men and an imitation dictator at home and supported by countries desperate to remain on our good side so they can get a piece of the action.

Remember this during the election. Remember that this wasn't just a Republican failure - it was a Democratic failure as well.
 
2008-03-12 10:56:48 AM  
Waterboarding does not cause permanent damage. It gets results.

Why the bad press?
 
2008-03-12 10:56:49 AM  
furiousxgeorge: In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using torture on terrorists. The problem is we have no way to be sure people in our custody are not innocent. I would rather the United States be attacked again than be a country that uses torture on the innocent.

That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens
 
2008-03-12 10:56:52 AM  
Don't GURGLE GURGLE GURLGE tase me GURGLE GURGLE screw it...tase me!
 
2008-03-12 10:57:05 AM  
tweekster: not to defend waterboarding, but seriously get a grip on reality

Glad to see there is a degree of torture that is acceptable. Would you mind shooting me off a spectrum chart. MmmmKaaay. Thanks

www.popsyndicate.com
 
2008-03-12 10:57:24 AM  
domenad: Bushiatler

filter pwn'd!
 
2008-03-12 10:57:26 AM  
You know, waterboarding (despite my knowing what it is) still sounds like something fun that you do at the beach on a fine summer day.

How can it be bad when it sounds so fun?
 
2008-03-12 10:57:27 AM  
carnage4u 2008-03-12 10:44:45 AM
it would be nice to see who voted for / against.

Here you go:

Link (new window)

Republicans are in italics and as you can see, compose virtually all the "Nays". Congratulations asshats. Another example of partisan politics hurting this country.
 
2008-03-12 10:57:28 AM  
binnster: Every country in the history of the planet openly condones torture? Are you sure about that?

/hint: no


They openly condone it by actually doing it. Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years
 
2008-03-12 10:57:34 AM  
biffstallion: OlafTheBent: Disgusting... just disgusting.

Guess you haven't seen the al-Quaida book of torture. I would provide a link to it but it would probably be "too racy" or some such lib shiat.


Yeah, the only way to beat terrorists is to become terrorists.
 
2008-03-12 10:57:38 AM  
Kucinich voted against the override? WTF?
 
2008-03-12 10:57:39 AM  
The Bestest: Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

Here you go. (new window)


Dennis Kucinich voted Nay? What the fark?
 
2008-03-12 10:57:53 AM  
joethorne.
JewZeppy: joethorne.
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?
I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.

Ummm, how do you know it is terrorists that are being tortured?

I didn't say terrorists, I said "in the arena of terrorism". That would include those people interrogated for information relating to terrorist activities.


Ohhh, so torturing anybody is ok with you. As long as there is a possibility of an association to someone who knows something that may or may not be instrumental in the damaging of property or life. Sorry, I thought there was some humanity in there.

/Better to torture a thousand innocent men than to let one guilty one not get tortured. I see.
 
2008-03-12 10:57:55 AM  
I told you it works.
 
2008-03-12 10:57:55 AM  
What's the big deal about water boarding???

i42.photobucket.com

Oh. Okay, now I see...
 
2008-03-12 10:58:14 AM  
tweekster: markb289: It is a sad day in America when we have lowered our standards to match the worst dictatorships in the world.

The worst dictatorships usually use a bit more violence when it comes to torture.
oh and they kill them afterwards.
You might as well have said he is hitler and been done with it.


Dead is dead buddy. What happens if you have a heart attack during these procedures? What happens if someone drowns? What if they weren't guilty?
 
2008-03-12 10:58:35 AM  
UpstateMonkey: vernonFL: UpstateMonkey: Don't be naive people....regardless of what's "allowed" there will always be torture to extract information.

Yes but it would be illegal.

And that's stopped us before? And really, if we need to do it to get information out of a terrorist, so be it.


No, but it would have made it the exception rather than the rule. Torture is now the rule. Good job, America.

/yet another paradigm shift
//really, what are we still trying to preserve in this country?
 
2008-03-12 10:58:44 AM  
tweekster: The worst dictatorships usually use a bit more violence when it comes to torture.
oh and they kill them afterwards.


Good, we're not one of the "worst dictatorships"; we'd probably fall somewhere in the middle of the pack. torture has gone from moral absolute to something to be measured in degrees, all since 2003.

/they hate us for our slightly greater freedoms and our slightly milder torture
 
2008-03-12 10:58:45 AM  
IT'S NOT LUPUS!
 
2008-03-12 10:58:45 AM  
Jamrock: That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

You've GOT to be kidding.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:08 AM  
Aw, one second from a virtually identical simulpost.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:16 AM  
mattso: Sweet! I love water boarding!

*Shakes fist*
 
2008-03-12 10:59:31 AM  
biffstallion

Guess you haven't seen the al-Quaida book of torture.


I don't think anyone is implying that we are as disgusting as Al-Quaida. If they are, then they are simply being a hypersensitive asshat and should be ignored...

I believe the implication is that we are better than than Al-Quaida and thus condoning torture brings us down to their level - which it does.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:34 AM  
Yet another in an 7-year string of sad days for this country.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:39 AM  
FormlessOne: Remember that this wasn't just a Republican failure - it was a Democratic failure as well.

Look at the voting record, it was split straight down party lines. Republicans voted nay and Dems voted Yea. The Democrats are doing the best they can, there just aren't enough of them in office to overturn a veto.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:40 AM  
And who was the deciding vote - the one guy whose vote was able to uphold the veto?

You guessed. Frank Stallone.

content.answers.com
 
2008-03-12 10:59:44 AM  
YixilTesiphon:

Do you honestly believe that right and wrong are irrelevant, and the government should do whatever necessary to strengthen the State?

Even if you've been living in a cave the past 7 years you should now realize that this government runs on fear. Its high time that we openly admitted this and reaped the advantages of it, instead of this innane posturing about "freedom and democracy".

When you're in the position America is, with a huge influence throughout the globe, you're going to be hated anyway. If youre hated AND feared you hold more leverage.

Moral absolutes are for Sunday School.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:51 AM  
alonzinator: Glad to see there is a degree of torture that is acceptable. Would you mind shooting me off a spectrum chart. MmmmKaaay. Thanks

Not acceptable, but certain things are clearly more wrong. Well apparently not clearly since a couple of posters have already compared mock drowning with excruciatingly painful certain death.
 
US1
2008-03-12 10:59:54 AM  
i love waterboarding;


www.sunrisecaravanpark.com.au

Ooops thats body boarding
 
2008-03-12 10:59:55 AM  
I may have to take a pass on this thread. The line between sarcasm and stupidity/trolling in these posts is too difficult to determine.

I, for one, am strictly and vehemently opposed to torture for one reason: It doesn't farking work! If you follow the subject, you find not one god damned piece of useful intelligence obtained through torture. There are several stories about some captives that were providing valuable information prior to torture and then became unreliable.

I'm not a bleeding heart on this matter. While I do think it is inhuman to treat people this way, far more important is the fact that ruining a perfectly good resource who might otherwise prevent the loss of lives is tantamount to treason.
 
2008-03-12 10:59:55 AM  
tortilla burger:

There's no way the interrogators will stop using waterboarding. They'll just do it in secret.
Don't get me wrong. I don't like torture either. But the Reps, I think, have really shot themselves in the foot here.


agreed...
i don't forsee a CIA agent stopping to pick up his phone on a clandestine operation to get approval before he eventually whacks the guy anyways.
 
2008-03-12 11:00:11 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: Jamrock: That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

You've GOT to be kidding.


Recalibrate your sarcasm/troll meter and try again.
 
2008-03-12 11:00:23 AM  
a0.vox.com

I've sat in one of those. Not so bad, but I imagine that it gets painful when heated.
 
2008-03-12 11:00:28 AM  
www.vialls.com

//approoves
 
2008-03-12 11:00:31 AM  
www.gsahv.pp.fi

What's wrong with waterboarding anyway?
 
2008-03-12 11:00:33 AM  
Shaggy_C: You really have to wonder what would motivate someone to cut off the head of a US soldier when US soldiers been known to TORTURE farkING PEOPLE?! Jesus Tapdancing Christ! I'd rather be killed than farking tortured!
 
2008-03-12 11:00:43 AM  
tweekster: They openly condone it by actually doing it. Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

Luxembourg.
 
2008-03-12 11:00:59 AM  
JewZeppy: joethorne.
JewZeppy: joethorne.
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?
I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.

Ummm, how do you know it is terrorists that are being tortured?

I didn't say terrorists, I said "in the arena of terrorism". That would include those people interrogated for information relating to terrorist activities.

Ohhh, so torturing anybody is ok with you. As long as there is a possibility of an association to someone who knows something that may or may not be instrumental in the damaging of property or life. Sorry, I thought there was some humanity in there.

/Better to torture a thousand innocent men than to let one guilty one not get tortured. I see.


Did you even read my post, or were you just looking for someone to vent your wrath on?

Put down the cross and read again. I'm looking for arguments against the practice that aren't "it's wrong!". You know, logic?
 
2008-03-12 11:01:00 AM  
Democratic Yeas: 220
Democratic Nays: 3
Democrats Not Voting: 9

Republican Yeas: 5
Republican Nays: 185
Republicans Not Voting: 8

TOTALS
Yeas: 225
Nays: 188
Not Voting: 17

I can't wait for Democrats to be blamed for the bill's failure.
 
2008-03-12 11:01:18 AM  
You know who ELSE liked to spray liquids on his victims face?

rumorsayz.com

/don't hate me 'cause I hawtlinked
 
2008-03-12 11:01:33 AM  
farm1.static.flickr.com

I am ashamed of my country.
 
2008-03-12 11:01:51 AM  
Drant: tweekster: markb289: It is a sad day in America when we have lowered our standards to match the worst dictatorships in the world.

The worst dictatorships usually use a bit more violence when it comes to torture.
oh and they kill them afterwards.
You might as well have said he is hitler and been done with it.

Dead is dead buddy. What happens if you have a heart attack during these procedures? What happens if someone drowns? What if they weren't guilty?


Interesting, then I suppose you have a problem with manslaughter vs murder vs killing (and not being charged at all)

haplo53: tweekster: The worst dictatorships usually use a bit more violence when it comes to torture.
oh and they kill them afterwards.

Good, we're not one of the "worst dictatorships"; we'd probably fall somewhere in the middle of the pack. torture has gone from moral absolute to something to be measured in degrees, all since 2003.

/they hate us for our slightly greater freedoms and our slightly milder torture


Just because you can't remember anything past 2003, doesnt mean the reality didn't exist before then. There was never a moral absolute.
 
2008-03-12 11:02:18 AM  
This entire waterboarding issue is a giant distraction. There are problems in the USA that the House and Senate should be working on. Why are they are so concerned with one method of interrogation?

Over 2.3 Million American adults are incarcerated. That's over 1% of the adult population. We lead the world in locking people up, that in itself is a crime. Our legislative system is to blame. Our complex legal code is so intent on punishing people so severely for non-violent crimes. Our schools are to blame as well. We are so wealthy yet our population is so poorly educated. I would much rather see the passion and dedication that these lawmakers use against "waterboarding" to deal with the crowded prisons and failing public education systems in the US.

There are only 355 people detained in Guantanamo Bay. Of those, how many were ever waterboarded? 2 or 3 maybe? BFD
 
2008-03-12 11:02:23 AM  
Crude: Why does the Democrat Congress hate America?

Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

The final tally was 225-188 (with five Republicans voting for the override and three Dems voting against).

Clearly, with the vote breaking pretty much across party lines with 98.7% of Democrats in favor of overriding the veto and 97.3% of Republicans supporting Bush's torture policy and refusing to go along, this is the Democrats' fault.
 
2008-03-12 11:02:35 AM  
If waterboarding isn't torture, then they should subject someone to it in the middle of the senate floor on live TV.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:04 AM  
carnage4u: it would be nice to see who voted for / against.

Well, I found this partial list at the WaPo:

Link (new window)

I don't know why all the names aren't on there, when it lists the vote totals. Maybe too new?

It's also good to know that the Post can give us the breakdown by by astrological sign. Because we are total morans who would be interested in knowing how the Sagittarius caucus went on banning torture.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:05 AM  
tweekster:

They openly condone it by actually doing it. Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years


Que? Your definition of 'openly condone' is somewhat wrong. If my dad secretly kicked a puppy in 1960, you'd be wrong to say that my family openly condones kicking puppies.

*my dad, to my knowledge, has never kicked a puppy.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:06 AM  
The Bestest: Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

Here you go. (new window)


Heh. Kucinich voted Nay. I wonder what his reasoning was.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:06 AM  
The Bestest: Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

Here you go. (new window)


Thanks! So 185 Republicans voted no making it impossible to reach a majority in the House. Remember folks, every time there has been a socialy responsible measure that was pushed by the democrats but did not make it recently is because Republicans in Congress are stonewalling the Democrats on purpose so that when election time comes they can say that the Democrats were the "do nothing" Congress.

Bastards.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:08 AM  
FormlessOne: Remember this during the election. Remember that this wasn't just a Republican failure - it was a Democratic failure as well.

Whoops, beaten to the punch.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:47 AM  
tweekster: There was never a moral absolute.

sure seemed like there was when there was a war to sell.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:54 AM  
Shaggy_C: The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.

Ennnhhhh... I'll give it a 2/10.
 
2008-03-12 11:03:59 AM  
Jamrock : this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training.

Methinks that if you actually went through Marine Corps training, you'd know how to spell it.
 
2008-03-12 11:04:04 AM  
joethorne.: Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

"It's wrong" is more than enough reason.

FTFA: "I cannot sign into law a bill that would prevent me, and future presidents, from authorizing the CIA to conduct a separate, lawful intelligence program, and from taking all lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack," Bush said in a statement.

There's the rub dumbass, the law would make such actions illegal. At best, their legality is spurious now.
 
2008-03-12 11:04:08 AM  
tylerdurden217:

There are only 355 people detained in Guantanamo Bay. Of those, how many were everhas the gov't admitted waterboarded? 2 or 3 maybe? BFD


FTFY
 
2008-03-12 11:04:42 AM  
Diggin: Could care less anymore... I'm leaving! Goodbye!

www.incompetech.com
 
2008-03-12 11:04:54 AM  
Why did Kucinich vote against this?
 
2008-03-12 11:05:24 AM  
tweekster: Just because you can't remember anything past 2003, doesnt mean the reality didn't exist before then. There was never a moral absolute.

Yes there was. Geneva Conventions.
 
2008-03-12 11:05:38 AM  
Nice to see the US just used the 'Ends justify the means' and thus, validated terrorism as a valid means of warefare. why? Because all you have to do is now say 'this helps protect my people/country' and anything is acceptable.

Kidnapping? Torture? Murder? All perfectly acceptable, according to the US.
 
2008-03-12 11:05:39 AM  
If they didn't use dihydrogen monoxide, it wouldn't be so bad.

Damn stuff kills people every day.
 
2008-03-12 11:05:43 AM  
fluffy2097: If waterboarding isn't torture, then they should subject someone to it in the middle of the senate floor on live TV.

I'm against the whole torture thing, but this is silly. It's akin to PETA saying that we ought to force people to watch cows turned into steak because "if you don't want to see it, it's wrong." Or similarly, those who claim that homosexuality is wrong because they find it disgusting that men kiss.

Just because something is distasteful doesn't make it wrong.
 
2008-03-12 11:05:45 AM  
I dont think I will get alot of people disagreeing with me on this forum. But I belive there are at least a few in Congress who know it IS torture and just dont care.
 
2008-03-12 11:05:48 AM  
danlpoon: The Kelvin Zero of caring, so to speak.

+1 geek point
 
2008-03-12 11:06:08 AM  
Theaetetus: Aw, one second from a virtually identical simulpost.

Yeah, that was close...how exciting!
 
2008-03-12 11:06:27 AM  
Also from the Post, after they took care of allowing torture, congress got down to some important business:

# Bill: H RES 948
# Vote description: Congratulating the University of Kansas Football Team for Winning the 2008 Fedex Orange Bowl and Having the Most Successful Year in Program History
# Vote type: 2/3 Yea-and-Nay
# Result: Passed, 396-0, with 12 voting Present and 21 not voting.

I facepalmed so hard I broke my nose.
 
2008-03-12 11:06:31 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: Just because you can't remember anything past 2003, doesnt mean the reality didn't exist before then. There was never a moral absolute.

Yes there was. Geneva Conventions.


Which was absolutely ignored by both sides of every war since it was put into action.

So apparently not.
 
2008-03-12 11:06:34 AM  
biffstallion
OlafTheBent:
Disgusting... just disgusting.

Guess you haven't seen the al-Quaida book of torture. I would provide a link to it but it would probably be "too racy" or some such lib shiat.


America - not as bad as al-Quaida.

Congratulations!
 
2008-03-12 11:06:47 AM  
UpstateMonkey: And really, if we need to do it to get information out of a terrorist, so be it.

How do you know they are a terrorist?
 
2008-03-12 11:07:11 AM  
How long until the police get to use this for civilian interrogation? Can they combine this with the taser for full effect?

I asked my mom this very question when she said "well, they're doing what they have to in order to keep us safe". I asked if she'd be ok with the local sheriff torturing suspects. Funny, she didn't answer.
 
2008-03-12 11:07:33 AM  
tweekster: Which was absolutely ignored by both sides of every war since it was put into action.

Except for when we tried Japanese officers for waterboarding and hanged them. But, you know, yeah, it was ignored. Totally.
 
2008-03-12 11:07:33 AM  
tylerdurden217: This entire waterboarding issue is a giant distraction. There are problems in the USA that the House and Senate should be working on. Why are they are so concerned with one method of interrogation?

This bill isn't just about waterboarding. That just happens to be the one that has gotten all the news bites about it, the one that everyone has heard about.
 
2008-03-12 11:07:36 AM  
alonzinator: Would you mind shooting me off a spectrum chart. MmmmKaaay. Thanks

here we go...

i25.tinypic.com
 
2008-03-12 11:07:41 AM  
tweekster: binnster: Every country in the history of the planet openly condones torture? Are you sure about that?

/hint: no

They openly condone it by actually doing it. Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years


Instead, you should let us know of a country that has legalized torture in the last 30 years.
 
2008-03-12 11:07:48 AM  
this forum is missing one very important topic that is relevant "SPITZER" USA! USA! USA!
 
2008-03-12 11:07:50 AM  
Nays: Camp (MI)

I feel slightly better knowing I voted against this SOB, but still sad that he represents my district :(
 
2008-03-12 11:07:51 AM  
bottsicus: Methinks that if you actually went through Marine Corps training, you'd know how to spell it.

Its a Farkism, like 'moran'.
 
2008-03-12 11:08:17 AM  
Is waterboarding really torture? There's no long-term physical damage and not much pain. My understanding is its effect is mainly panic and fear. I think we're spending way too much time obsessing over this one.

Besides, if people didn't want to get waterboarded, maybe they shouldn't have become terrorists.
 
2008-03-12 11:08:23 AM  
My take:

It's wrong because it violates the principles on which this nation was founded. We've not always done a good job at upholding those principles or meeting our own ideals, but we ought to be moving forward... not sliding down into an abyss.
 
2008-03-12 11:08:26 AM  
I haven't seen any pictures of Dr. Gregory House and I can't be arsed to look for any references. For shame, Fark.
 
2008-03-12 11:08:29 AM  
America, you officially suck.
 
2008-03-12 11:08:38 AM  
Goldstein: Why did Kucinich vote against this?

The wife likes it rough
 
2008-03-12 11:09:08 AM  
Phil Herup: Waterboarding does not cause permanent damage. It gets results.

Why the bad press?


A friend of mine worked as a corpsman at SERE school. They had a student's heart stop while being waterboarded, but were able to revive him. The already strict restrictions on how it is performed were made even stricter, as it happened on a day when there was a Command Inspection.

And you can bet that these restrictions aren't used outside of SERE school. Waterboarding is extremely stressful on the body, and can kill.
 
2008-03-12 11:09:21 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: Which was absolutely ignored by both sides of every war since it was put into action.

Except for when we tried Japanese officers for waterboarding and hanged them. But, you know, yeah, it was ignored. Totally.


You really want to bring up the Japanese in a torture debate? really?
 
2008-03-12 11:09:45 AM  
joethorne.: Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?

Wait...you're looking for someone to explain their rationale for opposing wrongness? Seriously?

How about you explain your reluctance to accept "because it's not right" as a worthy rationale.
 
2008-03-12 11:09:50 AM  
and by my last post.....waterboarding people leads to us being able to get with the fine hoes at the emperor's club.
 
2008-03-12 11:09:51 AM  
Atomic_Puppy: I would love to see what was the voting breakdown...

Yeah, I bet it where when is fairly predictable...
 
2008-03-12 11:10:48 AM  
www.lexrex.com

Disapproves

The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either.
 
2008-03-12 11:10:52 AM  
I, for one, welcome our waterboarding overlords
 
2008-03-12 11:10:58 AM  
With all the talk about the cult of Obama recently, I thought I'd drop this in here for some perspective:

Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful..
 
2008-03-12 11:11:03 AM  
vernonFL: I bet that I could make you admit to something that you didn't actually do by torturing you.

False confessions happen *all* the time in civilian police interrogations. And all they get to do is yell at you for hours on end.
 
2008-03-12 11:11:57 AM  
What if someone drowns during interrogations? I mean, you couldn't really lock someone up for murder that simply applied some legal interrogation techniques just a little outside accepted standards. But since they only grab the right people for the interrogations, this will never harm innocent people.
 
2008-03-12 11:11:59 AM  
bottsicus: Jamrock : this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training.

Methinks that if you actually went through Marine Corps training, you'd know how to spell it.


Pwned.
 
2008-03-12 11:12:05 AM  
duncangonuts: Heh. Kucinich voted Nay. I wonder what his reasoning was.

bottsicus: Kucinich voted against the override? WTF?

Kucinich voted Nay because waterboarding was already illegal, and he believes that the Bush Administration could use a ban on it as proof that it had been legal up until that point.

I'm sure the Republicans voted Nay for similarly principled reasons...
 
2008-03-12 11:12:17 AM  
Sabalo:

Most people aren't horrified when they visit a butcher shop, and they do continue to eat meat. Also, most of us can accept gay men just fine even if it's not our thing. Extreme reactions don't dictate what is a 'silly' standard.

It's being argued that waterboarding is no big thing. If that's true, let's see it and judge for ourselves. The Army torture expert who had seen and experienced waterboarding first hand and testified before congress last fall sure didn't think it was 'no big thing'.
 
2008-03-12 11:12:26 AM  
Jamrock:
That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens


Its troops like you with your over macho hardon tough BS are the reason we shouldn't support the troops, alteast not ones dumb ones. You'd be thinking different if you get captured in Iraq by some dude who started using drills and powertools on you. Then you'd wish Bush signed on to the Geneva Conventions.


puppethead.com
 
2008-03-12 11:12:28 AM  
xkillyourfacex: Is waterboarding really torture? There's no long-term physical damage and not much pain. My understanding is its effect is mainly panic and fear. I think we're spending way too much time obsessing over this one.

Besides, if people didn't want to get waterboarded, maybe they shouldn't have become terrorists.


You just totally made my day. Check it out.

- We are at war with "terrorism."
- Terrorism, by definition, is an action or actions designed to cause panic and fear.
- We're using an interrogation technique that could be considered terrorism, to fight terrorism.

Hmm.
 
2008-03-12 11:12:30 AM  
a-snap: Waterboarding is extremely stressful on the body, and can kill.

So can vehicles, but you use them everyday....
 
2008-03-12 11:13:15 AM  
It's not lupus.
 
2008-03-12 11:13:17 AM  
As I'm too lazy to read through all the posts up til now, I see that the voting breakdown was almost exactly down party lines.

Way to go Republicans FTW!!!11!!Ele!!ven11ty!!!

/be hiding in my bunk
 
2008-03-12 11:13:25 AM  
cup of tea: So can vehicles, but you use them everyday....

-_-
 
2008-03-12 11:13:27 AM  
xkillyourfacex: Is waterboarding really torture? There's no long-term physical damage and not much pain. My understanding is its effect is mainly panic and fear. I think we're spending way too much time obsessing over this one.

Besides, if people didn't want to get waterboarded, maybe they shouldn't have become terrorists.


Are you really an idiot? Of course, water boarding is torture. Torture has already been defined within the Geneva Convention for soulless monster who can't figure it out intuitively.
 
2008-03-12 11:13:38 AM  
Memes Ate My Balls: Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?

Possibly, but I would much rather be tortured by Americans. They might make me think they were cutting off my balls, but after it was all over, my sac is still intact.

//and that's all that matters
 
2008-03-12 11:13:47 AM  
tweekster: You really want to bring up the Japanese in a torture debate? really?

Yep. Because it's going to be fun watching you try to defend it.
 
2008-03-12 11:14:03 AM  
1derful
Get over it.

We torture.

Your American ideals of the U.S. being the "good guys" is about 60 years outdated.


Wow. You're part of the problem. How cool and hip.
 
2008-03-12 11:14:03 AM  
Richard Pye: I haven't seen any pictures of Dr. Gregory House and I can't be arsed to look for any references. For shame, Fark.


Dammit, you beat me by five minutes while I was posting in another forum!
 
2008-03-12 11:14:09 AM  
Way to go DEMS, see if I waste another vote on you worthless asshats.
 
2008-03-12 11:14:45 AM  
joethorne.:
Put down the cross and read again. I'm looking for arguments against the practice that aren't "it's wrong!". You know, logic?


No, you're really not. Because I gave you two and you completely ignored them, didn't respond, skipped right over. You only responded to the arguments that were based on "it's wrong".
In other words, you're really just trolling, under the disguise of "wanting to have an honest discussion".
 
2008-03-12 11:14:51 AM  
redufo: Jamrock:
That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens

Its troops like you with your over macho hardon tough BS are the reason we shouldn't support the troops, alteast not ones dumb ones. You'd be thinking different if you get captured in Iraq by some dude who started using drills and powertools on you. Then you'd wish Bush signed on to the Geneva Conventions.


No, it's pussies like you have that have to shoot your PC, liberal load over everything and make a mess for the rest of us.
 
2008-03-12 11:14:58 AM  
cup of tea: So can vehicles, but you use them everyday....

Some of us don't go out deliberately driving over people to get information out of them.
 
2008-03-12 11:16:22 AM  
Wolfinstl: Way to go DEMS, see if I waste another vote on you worthless asshats.

FAIL
 
2008-03-12 11:16:31 AM  
What is disconcerting is that Congress can't get a bill to prohibit torturing without loading it with pork. I doubt having a "clean" bill would prevent Bush from still vetoing it. But at least we could know that the bill supporters honestly cared about the issue instead of getting the most money for their pet projects. It's disgusting.
 
2008-03-12 11:16:50 AM  
Bacontastesgood: Sabalo:

Most people aren't horrified when they visit a butcher shop, and they do continue to eat meat. Also, most of us can accept gay men just fine even if it's not our thing. Extreme reactions don't dictate what is a 'silly' standard.

It's being argued that waterboarding is no big thing. If that's true, let's see it and judge for ourselves. The Army torture expert who had seen and experienced waterboarding first hand and testified before congress last fall sure didn't think it was 'no big thing'.


We're arguing for the same side, so don't get too angry. I'm just pointing out a flaw in that specific argument.

There's a difference between a butcher shop and, say, a processing plant. Almost anyone would be disgusted by a processing plant, but that doesn't make eating meat wrong, right?

And while most of us CAN accept gay men just fine, there are those that use their own disgust as a rationale to try to legislate.

That's all I'm saying.
 
2008-03-12 11:17:07 AM  
IXI Jim IXI: Some of us don't go out deliberately driving over people to get information out of them.

Speak for yourself champ...
 
2008-03-12 11:17:15 AM  
IXI Jim IXI: cup of tea: So can vehicles, but you use them everyday....

Some of us don't go out deliberately driving over people to get information out of them.


Of course! People don't need a reason to get drunk, go driving, and kill someone....Its for the fun of it...That makes it better
 
2008-03-12 11:17:27 AM  
Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.
 
2008-03-12 11:18:06 AM  
aglassonion: What is disconcerting is that Congress can't get a bill to prohibit torturing without loading it with pork. I doubt having a "clean" bill would prevent Bush from still vetoing it. But at least we could know that the bill supporters honestly cared about the issue instead of getting the most money for their pet projects. It's disgusting.

FTA
The president said his veto was not specifically about waterboarding but about wanting the CIA to have the flexibility to use legal and effective interrogation methods that are not listed in the Army field manual.

"I cannot sign into law a bill that would prevent me, and future presidents, from authorizing the CIA to conduct a separate, lawful intelligence program, and from taking all lawful actions necessary to protect Americans from attack," Bush said in a statement.


Bush, at least, has made his motivations fairly clear.
 
2008-03-12 11:18:20 AM  
The Bestest: how many were everhas the gov't admitted waterboarded? 2 or 3 maybe? BFD

FTFY


If half of them were waterboarded... my point is the same. There are bigger issues by an order of magnitude. But waterboarding is the hip thing to be fighting these days.

I don't think military intelligence should be required to disclose their exact methods of interrogation. I also don't believe that prisoners of war can or should be protected by the Constitution.

That's the ugly side of war... people die and it hurts and sucks a great deal to be captured and detained. It may be uncomfortable to resist telling the truth while in detention. My point was that I simply care less about that issue than I do about the Millions of Americans who ARE DEFINITELY protected by the Constitution of the US who have had their lives effectively ended with their incarceration.
 
2008-03-12 11:18:34 AM  
==============
314
==============
 
2008-03-12 11:18:42 AM  
omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

We learned it from watching the rest of the world.
 
2008-03-12 11:18:47 AM  
Sabalo: fluffy2097: If waterboarding isn't torture, then they should subject someone to it in the middle of the senate floor on live TV.

I'm against the whole torture thing, but this is silly. It's akin to PETA saying that we ought to force people to watch cows turned into steak because "if you don't want to see it, it's wrong." Or similarly, those who claim that homosexuality is wrong because they find it disgusting that men kiss.

Just because something is distasteful doesn't make it wrong.


If its not wrong, why don't you want to watch? Are you some sort of pussy who hates torture?
 
2008-03-12 11:19:13 AM  
omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

So, denounce your citizenship and leave... or are you too busy gettin' all the free booty that the goverment sends you monthly?
 
2008-03-12 11:19:19 AM  
Phil Herup: Waterboarding does not cause permanent damage.

Well, unless you count drowning as damage and death as permanent.

It gets results.

That may or not be accurate.
 
2008-03-12 11:19:27 AM  
IXI Jim IXI:

Some of us don't go out deliberately driving over people to get information out of them.

Some of us do. I've found that to be an acceptable compromise with our cultural taboo against guys asking for directions.
 
2008-03-12 11:19:49 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: You really want to bring up the Japanese in a torture debate? really?

Yep. Because it's going to be fun watching you try to defend it.


We tortured the Japanese, they tortured us.
Like I said previously, both sides have ignored the Geneva convention on a consistent basis. A few of the losing side's officers are tried when the war is over and we all act self righteous about it.

This is not an uncommon occurrence. guess what, the US also committed war crimes, so did the canadians, so did the french so did the .... all in world war 2. Who was mainly prosecuted for them, the germans and japanese while pretty much putting anything the victors did as a footnote of history to be ignored
 
2008-03-12 11:20:01 AM  
Skwidd

Is it okay with you that 1 man has the power to arrest, detain indefinately, and torture anyone he chooses to?

Because that is the power we have given to George W. Bush.
 
2008-03-12 11:20:53 AM  
cup of tea: Of course! People don't need a reason to get drunk, go driving, and kill someone....Its for the fun of it...That makes it better

Well, personally, I'd go collect stamps or something. But, everyone needs a hobby.
 
2008-03-12 11:21:12 AM  
fluffy2097: Sabalo: fluffy2097: If waterboarding isn't torture, then they should subject someone to it in the middle of the senate floor on live TV.

I'm against the whole torture thing, but this is silly. It's akin to PETA saying that we ought to force people to watch cows turned into steak because "if you don't want to see it, it's wrong." Or similarly, those who claim that homosexuality is wrong because they find it disgusting that men kiss.

Just because something is distasteful doesn't make it wrong.

If its not wrong, why don't you want to watch? Are you some sort of pussy who hates torture?


You must have missed the bit where I said, in my post, "I'm against the whole torture thing."

I don't want to watch them remove a tumor from someone's chest cavity either... does that make surgery wrong?
 
2008-03-12 11:21:40 AM  
tylerdurden217: If half of them were waterboarded... my point is the same. There are bigger issues by an order of magnitude. But waterboarding is the hip thing to be fighting these days.

I don't think military intelligence should be required to disclose their exact methods of interrogation. I also don't believe that prisoners of war can or should be protected by the Constitution.

That's the ugly side of war... people die and it hurts and sucks a great deal to be captured and detained. It may be uncomfortable to resist telling the truth while in detention. My point was that I simply care less about that issue than I do about the Millions of Americans who ARE DEFINITELY protected by the Constitution of the US who have had their lives effectively ended with their incarceration.


Totally understand that. The deal though, is this gives carte blanche for the same treatment of our own forces should they be captured. Not saying that other issues aren't more important, but this issue IS important enough to legislate.
 
2008-03-12 11:22:01 AM  
vernonFL: Skwidd

Is it okay with you that 1 man has the power to arrest, detain indefinately, and torture anyone he chooses to?

Because that is the power we have given to George W. Bush.


Giving the executive these powers sets a scary precedent.

But it's a dangerous precedent no matter who the Commander-in-Chief is.
 
2008-03-12 11:22:17 AM  
Skwidd: Bonus: You get to torture two or more terrorists!

Just out of curiosity, how is this a bonus? Assuming one isn't just a sadist who likes torturing people, that is.

- It isn't going to deter further terrorists and, in fact, may provoke them.
- It will completely ruin a resource who might actually have further information to give.
- It will mentally damage the person performing the torture.

What is the upside of a single torture, let alone two?
 
2008-03-12 11:22:36 AM  
tweekster: Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

The entire history of the world only stretches back 30 years?
 
2008-03-12 11:23:34 AM  
tweekster: We tortured the Japanese, they tortured us.

Oh man, I'd love to see some specifics on that one. Also, you can't call "trying and hanging offenders" ignoring the Geneva Convention. That's USING the Geneva Convention to PUNISH torturers.
 
2008-03-12 11:23:39 AM  
Skwidd: For my part, I suggest you all get in a circle and wave some signs and chant some slogans or something equally ineffectual. Just don't disrupt traffic, that's a taserin'.

I'd rather spend my time ineffectively campaigning for a party that isn't going to win, but would not allow this kind of crap to happen were it in control of Congress.
 
2008-03-12 11:24:02 AM  
Gecko Gingrich: tweekster: Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

The entire history of the world only stretches back 30 years?


I was trying to avoid people bringing up the Spanish inquisition and other things that happened hundreds of years ago. But rather for people to give a recent example consisting of generations that are still alive and in power.

but but but the crusades?
 
2008-03-12 11:24:07 AM  
Well, the arguments to common sense, decency and morality haven't worked so hey, go ahead America, be the monsters you hung for doing the same things at Nuremburg all those long years ago.

I'm reminded of Sin City where Marv says he likes it when hit men come after him because he doesn't have to worry about hurting them, except this time it's war-hungry, torture-loving Americans who the rest of the world doesn't have to worry about hurting.

Keep up the good work guys. With all your hard work you'll have the world cheering not weeping next time there is an attack on American soil. We're not quite there yet but what was once unimaginable is now imaginable.

/torture is evil, don't you stupid, stupid, stupid fools GET IT?
 
2008-03-12 11:24:35 AM  
I say someone waterboards W with 8 gallons of gasoline and a road flare...
 
2008-03-12 11:24:57 AM  
Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

Sealand!
 
2008-03-12 11:24:59 AM  
Oh, great.

Don't vote for any public offical that condones torture by the state.

Does that even need to be said?
 
2008-03-12 11:25:16 AM  
Jamrock: That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens


You know, the stereotype is that Jarheads really don't do well in normal, rational society.

You're not helping that stereotype.
 
2008-03-12 11:25:28 AM  
tweekster:

I was trying to avoid people bringing up the Spanish inquisition

Ha! And they say nobody expects them.
 
2008-03-12 11:25:41 AM  
"Our freedoms stay protected."

Subby - I desperately want to believe that you were being sarcastic. I sure hope so.

That said... as a dyed-in-the-wool liberal Democrat, I'd like the Democrats in Congress to PLEASE lay off th' nonsense. You canNOT embarrass this guy, and you're just wasting time. Just don't send him a bill, period. As we say here on Fark, "You're doing it wrong."
 
2008-03-12 11:26:17 AM  
DrowningLessons: Seriously. Can we stop pretending we're a democracy and not an empire? I hate everything that's happened in the last eight years (and a lot that's happened in the span of my lifetime), but I could get behind it (kind of) if we were honest.

Sigh...we're not a farking empire. We're a Corporatist Aristocracy with international trade agreements.
 
2008-03-12 11:26:24 AM  
Jon Snow: duncangonuts: Heh. Kucinich voted Nay. I wonder what his reasoning was.

bottsicus: Kucinich voted against the override? WTF?

Kucinich voted Nay because waterboarding was already illegal, and he believes that the Bush Administration could use a ban on it as proof that it had been legal up until that point.

I'm sure the Republicans voted Nay for similarly principled reasons...


And there are people who were going to vote for him for some other reason than they wanted to fark his wife.
 
2008-03-12 11:27:25 AM  
You gotta post up the entire lists from that bad leader thingy...lots more seem to apply to Mr. Bush

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.


Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Followers feel they can never be "good enough".

The group/leader is always right.

The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing "truth" or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.


Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as "persecution".

Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.


A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Let me know if I missed any
 
2008-03-12 11:27:25 AM  
xkillyourfacex
Is waterboarding really torture? There's no long-term physical damage and not much pain. My understanding is its effect is mainly panic and fear. I think we're spending way too much time obsessing over this one.

There's actually a pretty high chance of brain damage, lung damage, and death. I mean, the subject is literally drowning, they're breathing a lot of water into the lungs. Waterboarding is worse than just submerging the head because it triggers the gag reflex and you lose the ability to just hold your breath.
 
2008-03-12 11:27:50 AM  
Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

Norway.
 
2008-03-12 11:27:58 AM  
mccallcl:
Look at the voting record, it was split straight down party lines. Republicans voted nay and Dems voted Yea. The Democrats are doing the best they can, there just aren't enough of them in office to overturn a veto.


IT'S THE DEMOCRAPTS FAULT THAT THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM.
 
2008-03-12 11:28:05 AM  
I was thinking, and I apologize if this has already been suggested (which it probably has), but why not waterboard Mukasey until he admits that waterboarding is torture. I say that the senate holds additional hearings and waterboards the ever lovin' shiat out of him, on camera for the American people. When he finally breaks down, crying, pleading for them to stop, this will prove one of two things. 1) Waterboarding is torture, and should be treated as such or 2) waterboarding can make "good" people admit to things that aren't true, thus negating its effectiveness as an interrogation technique. In order to figure out if Mukasey was lying to congress as to whether or not he feels waterboarding is torture, waterboard him again. The truth will come out.
 
2008-03-12 11:28:07 AM  
I'm so tired of all the liberal pissing and whining about everything. I'm done with Fark for a bit.
 
2008-03-12 11:28:32 AM  
sendtodave: Jamrock: That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens

You know, the stereotype is that Jarheads really don't do well in normal, rational society.

You're not helping that stereotype.



I concur... and though I usually don't point this out...

You, Marine, swore an oath to defend the Constitution of the United States of America. You might want to read and research that document. Just saying.
 
2008-03-12 11:28:33 AM  
Jamrock

I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training.

Voluntarily, soldier. When you don't volunteer, it's torture.
 
2008-03-12 11:28:58 AM  
The GOP: Come for the irrational hatred of gays, stay for the torture
 
2008-03-12 11:29:12 AM  
Y2Jericho: I'm so tired of all the liberal pissing and whining about everything. I'm done with Fark for a bit.

If only we could believe you...
 
2008-03-12 11:29:30 AM  
IXI Jim IXI: This bill isn't just about waterboarding. That just happens to be the one that has gotten all the news bites about it, the one that everyone has heard about.

Of course the bill included more language than waterboarding, but do you know what that was? All I can find is that they wanted to limit the MI to the "19 interrogation methods approved in the Army field manual".

Waterboarding is used because it is believed to be effective. It's so easy for us to sit here and have opinions in the safety of our homes and workplaces, but the fact of the matter is simple: The military might capture someone who knows something that could pose a danger to innocent people. That person may not tell when asked nicely or when any of the 19 methods are used. If extreme measures are required WHY do people have a problem with that?

If your child was kidnapped by someone and you were able to detain a person that knew exactly where you child was would you be concerned about the methods someone used to get that info?

Not me. I'm sure waterboarding sucks bad. I hate the feeling of drowning, but there is worse stuff. Pulling off fingernails, breaking knee caps, etc. 19 seconds of simulated drowning death is really not my biggest concern. As I stated in my original post, I'm more concerned about the 2.3 Million Americans incarcerated and the poor public education systems. I'd rather the legislature work on that until it's resolved.
 
2008-03-12 11:29:38 AM  
Sabalo: omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

We learned it from watching the rest of the world.


Monkey see, monkey do? Well THAT explains it! Thanks.
 
2008-03-12 11:29:57 AM  
Atomic Jonb:

And there are people who were going to vote for him for some other reason than they wanted to fark his wife.

Marge was the reason I used to write in Charles Schott.

images.usatoday.com

/oh that thumb, that saucy saucy thumb
 
2008-03-12 11:30:02 AM  
tylerdurden217: There are only 355 people detained in Guantanamo Bay. Of those, how many were ever waterboarded? 2 or 3 maybe? BFD

So, you'd be OK with 20000 of the folks in US jails being waterboarded?
 
2008-03-12 11:30:05 AM  
Wolfinstl: Way to go DEMS, see if I waste another vote on you worthless asshats.

The voting breakdown. You should check it.
 
2008-03-12 11:30:13 AM  
mrshowrules
America, you officially suck.


I'm sad to say it, but THIS.

On a side note, I used to think the Bush/Hitler comparisons were too strong and way too stupid. Not anymore. Now that he admits torture is OK, how anyone can not think he's a scumbag is beyond me. Shame on Bush, shame on the Reps and the Dems.
 
2008-03-12 11:30:47 AM  
Jon Snow: Kucinich voted Nay because waterboarding was already illegal, and he believes that the Bush Administration could use a ban on it as proof that it had been legal up until that point.

He assumes subsequent legal proceedings? how quaint
 
2008-03-12 11:30:57 AM  
Y2Jericho: I'm so tired of all the liberal pissing and whining about everything. I'm done with Fark for a bit.

Good. We need fewer assholes.
 
2008-03-12 11:31:05 AM  
Heh.

As a completely off-topic aside... I get called an evil conservative social darwinist in the economic freedoms threads, and a sissy whining liberal in the social freedoms threads. Always amusing, always amusing.
 
2008-03-12 11:31:30 AM  
>> House can't muster enough votes to override waterboarding veto.

Ah yeah.

Last time i checked the dems still don't have a veto proof majority.

So why is this news
 
2008-03-12 11:31:37 AM  
Shaggy_C Quote 2008-03-12 10:52:24 AM
bottsicus: 4/10

fernandez: 6/10

With your scores combined, I'm a perfect 10!


that's some pretty fuzzy math you got on you. there
 
2008-03-12 11:32:10 AM  
Shining beacon!
 
2008-03-12 11:32:23 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: We tortured the Japanese, they tortured us.

Oh man, I'd love to see some specifics on that one. Also, you can't call "trying and hanging offenders" ignoring the Geneva Convention. That's USING the Geneva Convention to PUNISH torturers.


Well right off the bat you can chalk up the mass rape of civilians since it definitely instilled fear into the masses.

How about the "we don't want to take prisoners" mentality.

Body part souvenirs. (we eventually bothered to do something about that one)

Many of those double as war crimes, but also count as acts of torture in the intended effect of them.
 
2008-03-12 11:32:47 AM  
Woot. It amuses me to see all the terrorist supporting libs cry in defense of Allah.
 
2008-03-12 11:32:59 AM  
letdogsvote:

Let me know if I missed any

... is characterized as "persecution" "Bush Derangement Syndrome".
 
2008-03-12 11:33:02 AM  
Oh my god! Think of the poor terrorists we're going to use this on!

Cry me a farking river. It's not like local beat cops are going to do this to Joe Potdealer. There is absolutely nothing too good for terrorists. Waterboarding isn't even torture. Torture is having bamboo knives wedged up your fingernails. Waterboarding falls somewhere between sensory deprivation and being slapped by a girl.
 
2008-03-12 11:33:03 AM  
i216.photobucket.com
 
2008-03-12 11:33:24 AM  
Fibber McLiarson: Sabalo: omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

We learned it from watching the rest of the world.

Monkey see, monkey do? Well THAT explains it! Thanks.


When a government realizes that it's people are willing to accept torture and evil to accomplish the government's ends, then yes... the governments see, and they do.

My real issue is in people pretending that the U.S. is the first nation to ever do anything evil, or that we're solely responsible. We're responsible for what we've done, surely, but the U.S. isn't the only nation with an out of control government.
 
2008-03-12 11:33:26 AM  
In the Bizarro world of Republicans, this bill is proof that "waterboarding" is the cause of "Global Warming".
Bill Number: HR 2082 http://www.votesmart.org/issue_keyvote_detail.php?cs_id=17107

Quote: "Republicans portrayed their support for Bush's veto as a stand against a bill they say is riddled with pork-barrel projects like a National Drug Intelligence Center and a study of the national security implications of global warming."

Good going republicans. In the Bizarro world of the Dems, you've proven you're nuts.
 
2008-03-12 11:33:27 AM  
tweekster: Body part souvenirs. (we eventually bothered to do something about that one)

But it was ignored, right? If we did something about it how was it ignored?

/your arguments, they are flawed.
 
2008-03-12 11:33:29 AM  
Sum Dum Gai There's actually a pretty high chance of brain damage, lung damage, and death. I mean, the subject is literally drowning, they're breathing a lot of water into the lungs. Waterboarding is worse than just submerging the head because it triggers the gag reflex and you lose the ability to just hold your breath.

If that's true, sounds pretty sick. There has to be an interrogation technique that is NOT torture? Could we like, put non-venomous snakes on them? Or non-venomous tarantulas? If it were tarantulas, I'd talk before they'd even touch me.
 
2008-03-12 11:33:35 AM  
Get ready for the childish rants about how both partys are the same.
 
2008-03-12 11:34:16 AM  
waterboarding is already banned by the CIA
 
2008-03-12 11:34:32 AM  
Shaggy_C: Sigh...we're not a farking empire. We're a Corporatist Aristocracy with international trade agreements.

We're an empire built using the wealth and technology of the modern world. Splitting coont hairs is what you are doing here...
 
2008-03-12 11:35:01 AM  
rictorius: that's some pretty fuzzy math you got on you. there

There's three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those who can't.
 
2008-03-12 11:35:02 AM  
Tommy Moo: Oh my god! Think of the poor terrorists we're going to use this on!

Cry me a farking river. It's not like local beat cops are going to do this to Joe Potdealer. There is absolutely nothing too good for terrorists. Waterboarding isn't even torture. Torture is having bamboo knives wedged up your fingernails. Waterboarding falls somewhere between sensory deprivation and being slapped by a girl.


Just like that camp down in Cuba that they didn't use to detain U.S. citizens without a trial?
 
2008-03-12 11:35:14 AM  
A terrorist gets wet. Meh.
 
2008-03-12 11:35:34 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: Body part souvenirs. (we eventually bothered to do something about that one)

But it was ignored, right? If we did something about it how was it ignored?

/your arguments, they are flawed.


Token gesture. Let me show you them.

It isnt hard to act like you are against something, occasionally yell at someone then be dead silent while everyone ignores the "rule"

It didn't even count as a half hearted attempt at stopping the practice let alone a real commitment.
 
2008-03-12 11:36:17 AM  
bottsicus: Methinks that if you actually went through Marine Corps training, you'd know how to spell it.

Wimper Fi.
 
2008-03-12 11:36:18 AM  
Hang On Voltaire: waterboarding is already banned by the CIA

Great. What about the other organizations?
 
2008-03-12 11:36:40 AM  
zelachang: Good. What else are our interrogators going to do when they need to get that information? American lives depend on this practice people.

2/10
 
2008-03-12 11:36:49 AM  
Headso: We're an empire built using the wealth and technology of the modern world. Splitting coont hairs is what you are doing here...

'Empire' implies ownership or sovereignty. Corporations are the international entities who own the means of production and associated distribution. Not the US government. Government is merely an enabler.
 
2008-03-12 11:36:52 AM  
The Bestest: Totally understand that. The deal though, is this gives carte blanche for the same treatment of our own forces should they be captured. Not saying that other issues aren't more important, but this issue IS important enough to legislate.

I have heard first hand accounts of how captured US soldiers have been treated in Iraq. Waterboarding would have probably been preferred over the methods used because you don't DIE when waterboarded.

Gecko Gingrich: So, you'd be OK with 20000 of the folks in US jails being waterboarded?

How did you come up with that? I'm guessing you used 1% of the 2.3 Million Americans... if so you IGNORED the fact that I said that the American prisoners actually are protected by the Constitution of the US. (Eighth Amendment)

Nice try though.
 
2008-03-12 11:36:52 AM  
Y2Jericho:

Look, I understand that you're an idiot and are probably more emotionally invested in Pro Wrestling than the need to maintain a level of ethics and civility in order to protect the future of this nation, but even you can understand why people would be mortified by this vote.

The thing that makes America great is not what we can do but what we choose not to because it violates our elevated standards for responsible and humane behavior.

We didn't salute Hitler when Germany hosted the 1936 olympics while every other other country's athletes meekly fell in line and threw their arm in the air.

You beleive in nothing.

You stand for nothing.

You are a national disgrace.
 
2008-03-12 11:37:01 AM  
The figures i ran across say 233 dems in the house and you need 289 to override a veto.

So since the veto didn't get overriden the dumbasses will come to the conclusion that the dems caved to the repubs.
 
2008-03-12 11:37:33 AM  
FormlessOne: Remember that this wasn't just a Republican failure - it was a Democratic failure as well.

Well, that's an interesting take on it, considering that a grand total of three Democrats voted "nay". (See the voting breakdown just a few posts above yours)

Hell, here are the totals:

DemocraticYEA 220, NAY 3

RepublicanYEA 5,NAY 185

But you go on with your bad self, poxing both houses, saying that they're all the same.

Wolfinstl: Way to go DEMS, see if I waste another vote on you worthless asshats.

You too. Do your homework before you shoot your mouth off.
 
2008-03-12 11:37:36 AM  
I have no problem with our government officials using torture in a situation of desperate need. If they feel it absolutely must be done, just do it. We'll keep records of what you did, your buddies in the CIA won't stop you.

When you're done with your interogation, and we aren't in the dire straights that led you to conclude this was the course of action we needed to take, I want you held to account in front of a full tribunal with absolute public transparency. If a jury of your peers sees fit to clear you, fine, that means from the information you had availible, your interogation was appropriate.

If you kept a naked dude in freezing temperatures for a few hours and got some troop positions and plans out of him, I'm sure your fellow citizens will dismiss your charges. If you had a dog bite an innocent man in the junk until he confessed to being Catherine the Great, you will in turn suffer appropriate consequences.

/Take what you want
//Then pay for it
 
2008-03-12 11:37:39 AM  
tweekster: cameroncrazy1984: tweekster: Body part souvenirs. (we eventually bothered to do something about that one)

But it was ignored, right? If we did something about it how was it ignored?

/your arguments, they are flawed.

Token gesture. Let me show you them.

It isnt hard to act like you are against something, occasionally yell at someone then be dead silent while everyone ignores the "rule"

It didn't even count as a half hearted attempt at stopping the practice let alone a real commitment.


But it was completely ignored, you said. At any rate, ignoring international law is never right.
 
2008-03-12 11:37:57 AM  
Hang On Voltaire: waterboarding is already banned by the CIA

It is banned by the US Army, not the CIA. Do you ever tell the truth?
 
2008-03-12 11:38:03 AM  
tylerdurden217: If your child was kidnapped by someone and you were able to detain a person that knew exactly where you child was would you be concerned about the methods someone used to get that info?

This is more of a case of waterboarding people into admitting that they kidnapped my daughter. Not really helpful if you're trying to find her.



Not me. I'm sure waterboarding sucks bad. I hate the feeling of drowning, but there is worse stuff.


Guess they shouldn't have executed all those Japanese who did it in WWII.

"It could have been worse...they could have been poking them with sticks or something..."
 
2008-03-12 11:38:10 AM  
Tommy Moo: Waterboarding isn't even torture... Waterboarding falls somewhere between sensory deprivation and being slapped by a girl.

...and you're an authority on this how?
 
2008-03-12 11:38:26 AM  
tylerdurden217: If your child was kidnapped by someone and you were able to detain a person that knew exactly where you child was would you be concerned about the methods someone used to get that info?

Yes. Assume that we don't have an unlimited time to find the child - that we're talking the usual Jack Bauer 24-hour scenario, right?

So, you start your torture session, and the guy breaks and says that your child is on Mount Rushmore, stuffed up Washington's nose. It's 8 hours away, however, so do you stop and go look there, or send someone and keep torturing, just in case? Of course, you keep going.
So now you may have the correct information, but you can't verify it for 8 hours.

Another five minutes of torture, and he breaks again and says, "oh, god, please stop! Your kid is in my windowless van with "free candy" painted on the side and it's parked in Death Valley!" Well, that's another 8 hours away. Send another person to check, and keep torturing.

After another five minutes, he says, "please stop! The truth is that he's tied to that tree you can drive through in the Redwood forest in Northern California! This time it's the truth!" But that's also 8 hours away.

At some point, you either run out of people to send, in which case, do you start pulling them back to check new places the guy mentions, or do you ignore the later places that he now insists are the truth?

You have gained absolutely zero useful information, and have wasted a lot of time. Personally, I'd rather negotiate, find the kid, and then punish. But that's because I like effective things.
 
2008-03-12 11:38:27 AM  
An tSaoi On a side note, I used to think the Bush/Hitler comparisons were too strong and way too stupid. Not anymore.

Yep. Any day now, he's going to massively and aggressively assault cities across Europe killing men, women and child, march his troops all over every country he can reach, and setup internment camps for the Jews where he'll begin to exterminate them with slow and painful deaths. I guess I can see how waterboarding compares to that.
 
2008-03-12 11:38:34 AM  
tylerdurden217: If your child was kidnapped by someone and you were able to detain a person that knew exactly where you child was would you be concerned about the methods someone used to get that info?

Yes, let's set policy to hypothetical tv scenarios

/oops, we already did, didn't we
 
2008-03-12 11:38:35 AM  
So Republicans think it's ok to 'defend' the Constitution using torture...the same Constitution with the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment?
That's got to take some serious mental gymnastics
 
2008-03-12 11:38:45 AM  
tylerdurden217: I have heard first hand accounts of how captured US soldiers have been treated in Iraq. Waterboarding would have probably been preferred over the methods used because you don't DIE when waterboarded.

Here's the difference. Terrorists? Yeah, they didn't agree to the Geneva Conventions. We did. We are better than they are.
 
2008-03-12 11:38:45 AM  
Guess it's time to roll this baby out again...

www.dtdstudios.com
 
2008-03-12 11:39:04 AM  
tylerdurden217:
The military might capture someone who knows something that could pose a danger to innocent people. That person may not tell when asked nicely or when any of the 19 methods are used. If extreme measures are required WHY do people have a problem with that?


Because torture leads to bad intel. If someone is bringing you pain you will tell them whatever they want to hear to ease such pain. Time and resources will be spent on ferreting out the truth from the lies and by then your intel has expired.

And this opens up the door to other countries torturing our military. Or course this administration had done nothing to convey any sense of respect for the men and women that fight for us. This administration simply uses them as weapons and throws them away if politically convenient.

Torture is inefficient and disrespectful to our military. At least that is an argument you could propose, and I think it is a very good one, and one worthy of debate.
 
2008-03-12 11:39:41 AM  
barjockey: A terrorist gets wet. Meh.

Shut up, barjockey, you cock.
 
2008-03-12 11:40:22 AM  
Theaetetus: joethorne.:
"Put down the cross and read again. I'm looking for arguments against the practice that aren't "it's wrong!". You know, logic?"

No, you're really not. Because I gave you two and you completely ignored them, didn't respond, skipped right over. You only responded to the arguments that were based on "it's wrong".
In other words, you're really just trolling, under the disguise of "wanting to have an honest discussion".


He sure disappeared fast. Guess I was right on the money.
 
2008-03-12 11:40:46 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: tylerdurden217: I have heard first hand accounts of how captured US soldiers have been treated in Iraq. Waterboarding would have probably been preferred over the methods used because you don't DIE when waterboarded.

Here's the difference. Terrorists? Yeah, they didn't agree to the Geneva Conventions. We did. We are better than they are.


Totally agree... if you want to show the world that your way is better, then lead by example!
 
2008-03-12 11:40:48 AM  
OneBrightMonkey: Y2Jericho:

Look, I understand that you're an idiot and are probably more emotionally invested in Pro Wrestling than the need to maintain a level of ethics and civility in order to protect the future of this nation, but even you can understand why people would be mortified by this vote.

The thing that makes America great is not what we can do but what we choose not to because it violates our elevated standards for responsible and humane behavior.

We didn't salute Hitler when Germany hosted the 1936 olympics while every other other country's athletes meekly fell in line and threw their arm in the air.


Yet, we didn't intervene in the European front until 5 years later.
 
2008-03-12 11:41:05 AM  
Jamrock: furiousxgeorge: In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with using torture on terrorists. The problem is we have no way to be sure people in our custody are not innocent. I would rather the United States be attacked again than be a country that uses torture on the innocent.

That is exactly why we should allow waterboarding and all other interogation techniques that are essentiel for national security. These techniques allow US authorities to determine once and for all who knows nothing and who has intel on terror activities. How can this be used for wrong?

I've seen news reporters be waterboarded, it didn't look that bad. What President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded. The he'll show those liberal pussies once and for all that this really isnt a big deal. I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training. Democrats need to quit being pussies and fighting for the rights of terrorists while fighting against the rights of law-abiding citizens


It's Marine "Corps", I wasn't in it but I know how to spell it. I figure you should if you really spent a few years in it and it was written everywhere you looked.
 
2008-03-12 11:41:19 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: But it was completely ignored, you said. At any rate, ignoring international law is never right.

And yet I never said it was right.

I said it is an extremely common occurrence and international law is completely ignored (I probably should have said 99% ignored just to cover the token gesture prosecutions of the winning side)
I noticed you completely ignored the other two tactics that were also a very common occurrence and hardly if at all ever prosecuted.
 
2008-03-12 11:41:35 AM  
Sabalo: Fibber McLiarson: Sabalo: omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

We learned it from watching the rest of the world.

Monkey see, monkey do? Well THAT explains it! Thanks.

When a government realizes that it's people are willing to accept torture and evil to accomplish the government's ends, then yes... the governments see, and they do.

My real issue is in people pretending that the U.S. is the first nation to ever do anything evil, or that we're solely responsible. We're responsible for what we've done, surely, but the U.S. isn't the only nation with an out of control government.


So what 'we're' really guilty of is hypocrisy, then? You know, by waving our constitution around as the best thing since sliced bread and all that jazz. Blowing the whole 'shot heard 'round the world' thing out of proportion every chance we get. A new nation with unique ideals. Meh...we're just following what came before. Nice.
 
2008-03-12 11:41:58 AM  
tweekster: And yet I never said it was right.

I said it is an extremely common occurrence


You have yet to give all these myriad examples of how common it is.
 
2008-03-12 11:42:10 AM  
Here is the list of Congressmen who voted to make America a country that condones torture. All but three are Republicans.

Aderholt
Akin
Alexander
Bachmann
Bachus
Barrett (SC)
Barton (TX)
Biggert
Bilbray
Bilirakis
Bishop (UT)
Blackburn
Blunt
Boehner
Bonner
Bono Mack
Boozman
Boustany
Brady (TX)
Broun (GA)
Brown (SC)
Brown-Waite, Ginny
Buchanan
Burgess
Burton (IN)
Buyer
Calvert
Camp (MI)
Campbell (CA)
Cannon
Cantor
Carter
Castle
Chabot
Cole (OK)
Conaway
Crenshaw
Cubin
Culberson
Davis, David
Davis, Tom
Deal (GA)
Diaz-Balart, L.
Diaz-Balart, M.
Doolittle
Drake
Dreier
Duncan
Ehlers
Emerson
English (PA)
Everett
Fallin
Feeney
Ferguson
Flake
Forbes
Fortenberry
Fossella
Foxx
Franks (AZ)
Frelinghuysen
Gallegly
Garrett (NJ)
Gerlach
Gingrey
Gohmert
Goode
Goodlatte
Granger
Graves
Hall (TX)
Hastings (WA)
Hayes
Heller
Hensarling
Herger
Hobson
Hoekstra
Hulshof
Hunter
Inglis (SC)
Issa
Johnson, Sam
Jones (NC)
Jordan
Keller
King (IA)
King (NY)
Kingston
Kirk
Kline (MN)
Knollenberg
Kucinich
Kuhl (NY)
LaHood
Lamborn
Latham
LaTourette
Latta
Lewis (CA)
Lewis (KY)
Linder
LoBiondo
Lucas
Lungren, Daniel E.
Mack
Manzullo
Marchant
Marshall
McCarthy (CA)
McCaul (TX)
McCotter
McCrery
McHenry
McHugh
McKeon
McMorris Rodgers
Mica
Miller (FL)
Miller (MI)
Miller, Gary
Moran (KS)
Murphy, Tim
Musgrave
Myrick
Neugebauer
Nunes
Pearce
Pence
Peterson (PA)
Petri
Pickering
Pitts
Platts
Poe
Porter
Price (GA)
Putnam
Ramstad
Regula
Rehberg
Reichert
Renzi
Reynolds
Rogers (AL)
Rogers (KY)
Rogers (MI)
Rohrabacher
Roskam
Royce
Ryan (WI)
Sali
Saxton
Schmidt
Sensenbrenner
Sessions
Shadegg
Shays
Shimkus
Shuster
Simpson
Smith (NE)
Smith (TX)
Souder
Stearns
Sullivan
Terry
Thornberry
Tiahrt
Tiberi
Turner
Upton
Walberg
Walden (OR)
Walsh (NY)
Wamp
Waters
Weldon (FL)
Weller
Westmoreland
Whitfield (KY)
Wilson (NM)
Wilson (SC)
Wittman (VA)
Wolf
Young (AK)
Young (FL)
 
2008-03-12 11:42:28 AM  
UnkleKrakker: So Republicans think it's ok to 'defend' the Constitution using torture...the same Constitution with the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment?
That's got to take some serious mental gymnastics


You want mental gymnastics? Scalia says that torture doesn't violate Amendment 8 'cause that one bars "cruel and unusual punishment", and because torture's for the purpose of extracting information, not punishing, it's not barred. As long as we don't convict anyone, we can do anything we want, no matter how cruel or unusual.
 
2008-03-12 11:42:38 AM  
We are better than they are.

In essence... THIS.

Sometimes taking the moral and ethical high ground can be a disadvantage, but it is well worth it.

I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.
 
2008-03-12 11:42:50 AM  
I'm so smart cause i have the secret knowledge that both partys are the same.
 
2008-03-12 11:43:19 AM  
A Tout Le Monde: It's Marine "Corps", I wasn't in it but I know how to spell it. I figure you should if you really spent a few years in it and it was written everywhere you looked.

Who ever heard of a marine that could spell (or read)
 
2008-03-12 11:43:59 AM  
Tommy Moo: Oh my god! Think of the poor terrorists we're going to use this on!

Wait until someone labels *you* or someone you love a terrorist.
 
2008-03-12 11:44:09 AM  
the government of the United States of America has now officially embraced torture. Waterboarding IS torture. Even this guy (new window) agrees.

And guess who else waterboarded? Yes, them:

unusuallystupidpoliticians.com
(That's the Khmer Rouge. Do a GIS. They are not nice people.)
 
2008-03-12 11:44:23 AM  
Fibber McLiarson: Sabalo: Fibber McLiarson: Sabalo: omg_lol: Who gives a crap if laws are passed or decisions are made. america has made a decision that it's a fascist, murdering shiathole, and enough of the world hates you enough now that you can never back down. america invades, tortures and murders, and it doesn't matter what laws are passed to allow or prevent it. Fark america.

We learned it from watching the rest of the world.

Monkey see, monkey do? Well THAT explains it! Thanks.

When a government realizes that it's people are willing to accept torture and evil to accomplish the government's ends, then yes... the governments see, and they do.

My real issue is in people pretending that the U.S. is the first nation to ever do anything evil, or that we're solely responsible. We're responsible for what we've done, surely, but the U.S. isn't the only nation with an out of control government.

So what 'we're' really guilty of is hypocrisy, then? You know, by waving our constitution around as the best thing since sliced bread and all that jazz. Blowing the whole 'shot heard 'round the world' thing out of proportion every chance we get. A new nation with unique ideals. Meh...we're just following what came before. Nice.


At this point?

Yes. I have no rebuttal for that.

All I can say is that there are those of us who DO want to live up to those ideals, even today.
 
2008-03-12 11:44:26 AM  
Tommy Moo
Cry me a farking river. It's not like local beat cops are going to do this to Joe Potdealer. There is absolutely nothing too good for terrorists. Waterboarding isn't even torture. Torture is having bamboo knives wedged up your fingernails. Waterboarding falls somewhere between sensory deprivation and being slapped by a girl.

I'd say waterboarding is far worse than bamboo under your fingernails. Waterboarding can easily kill you, either by drowning or by triggering heart failure. And even if you survive, the lack of oxygen to the brain can cause permanent damage.
 
2008-03-12 11:44:30 AM  
vernonFL: Let me know of a country that hasnt done something that fits the definition of torture in the last 30 years

Norway.


You can't get married in Norway?
 
2008-03-12 11:45:44 AM  
Theaetetus: UnkleKrakker: So Republicans think it's ok to 'defend' the Constitution using torture...the same Constitution with the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment?
That's got to take some serious mental gymnastics

You want mental gymnastics? Scalia says that torture doesn't violate Amendment 8 'cause that one bars "cruel and unusual punishment", and because torture's for the purpose of extracting information, not punishing, it's not barred. As long as we don't convict anyone, we can do anything we want, no matter how cruel or unusual.


I guess we can throw out Miranda now.
 
2008-03-12 11:45:57 AM  
Oh, and here's the list of those who didn't have the guts to cast a vote.

Capito
Coble
Davis (KY)
Dent
Hooley
Kilpatrick
Mitchell
Oberstar
Pryce (OH)
Radanovich
Rangel
Ros-Lehtinen
Rush
Schwartz
Tancredo
Thompson (MS)
Woolsey
 
2008-03-12 11:46:05 AM  
Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?
 
2008-03-12 11:46:22 AM  
tweekster: I was trying to avoid people bringing up the Spanish inquisition and other things that happened hundreds of years ago. But rather for people to give a recent example consisting of generations that are still alive and in power.

Sorry, I got you and binnster confused. He had previously said "entire history of the world".
 
2008-03-12 11:46:27 AM  
Sabalo:
Sometimes taking the moral and ethical high ground can be a disadvantage, but it is well worth it.

I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.


Newsletter
subscribe
fan club
or soemthing

Freedom isn't free, and yes soemtimes the folks at home have to pay for it.
 
2008-03-12 11:46:42 AM  
UnkleKrakker the same Constitution with the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment?

In criminal prosecutions, in the States, presumably against citizens. Nothing is said of other situations of justice. The Constitution, it ain't bad, you should read it some time. Don't invent stuff and assume it's in there.

Headso We're an empire built using the wealth and technology of the modern world.

Is "empire" supposed to be a bad-word? Why do so many liberals feel that such statements matter-of-factly is just as good as explaining why they're bad? "Yea, well, they're just a corporation."

What is wrong with being an empire? What is wrong with using wealth and technology? What is wrong with the modern world?
 
2008-03-12 11:46:52 AM  
TheNewJesus: Because torture leads to bad intel.

If that is indeed the case, I would let the MI officers decide that on their own. If they waterboard 3 times and every time they were led on wild goose chases, they would hopefully stop and use more effective methods. The military is capable of governing themselves in this case. Congress shouldn't be involved especially NOT when they have much bigger issues to deal with domestically.

And this opens up the door to other countries torturing our military.

There is no way to prove that they are torturing because we do. Our enemy is using tactics that we think are unethical. Without IEDs, suicide bombs, etc they wouldn't even be in this fight. They aren't doing this because we are waterboarding 3 people in Guantanamo bay, they are doing it because it's the only method they have of fighting that actually works.
 
2008-03-12 11:46:55 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

9/10/2001
 
2008-03-12 11:46:55 AM  
Sabalo: We are better than they are.

In essence... THIS.

Sometimes taking the moral and ethical high ground can be a disadvantage, but it is well worth it.

I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.


Not to mention that condoning torture and the events at Abu Ghraib prison just give the bad guys more ammo to support their views that America is the Great White Satan...
 
2008-03-12 11:47:27 AM  
I just can't see how people want to protect and coddle those people who would do us harm.

Bunch of wussies here on FARK today.
 
2008-03-12 11:47:29 AM  
Sabalo:

My real issue is in people pretending that the U.S. is the first nation to ever do anything evil, or that we're solely responsible. We're responsible for what we've done, surely, but the U.S. isn't the only nation with an out of control government.

Well what do you expect. According to some of the posters, the US puts out more pollution than all other countries combined.
 
2008-03-12 11:47:33 AM  
As liberal as I am on many subjects, I really have no problem with us waterboarding these jackasses. Seems to have worked on a few subjects so far.
 
2008-03-12 11:47:47 AM  
Sabalo: All I can say is that there are those of us who DO want to live up to those ideals, even today.

Agreed! I just hope it's not too late. I hate to quote an assinine bumper sticker but: Dude, where's my country?
 
2008-03-12 11:47:53 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?


2000
 
2008-03-12 11:47:58 AM  
Anyone who doesn't think waterboarding is torture needs to be waterboarded until they say that it is.
 
2008-03-12 11:48:00 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?


About the time that people decided that the Constitution was a suggestion, I imagine.
 
2008-03-12 11:48:02 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

The terrorists hate us for our liberty. So we give them death. Why is that so hard to understand? They don't want liberty and no one is talking about taking away yours, citizen.
 
2008-03-12 11:48:14 AM  
A Tout Le Monde:
It's Marine "Corps", I wasn't in it but I know how to spell it. I figure you should if you really spent a few years in it and it was written everywhere you looked.


But they dropped recruiting standards to low class felonies, some drug usage, illegal aliens, gang bangers and your below average rednecks. So this is what we end up with for a military by doing that. A bunch of people who really can't understand anymore more complicated than making koolaid or tossing puppies.

Most of todays military didn't see much wrong with the puppy throwing funny. A lot thought it was funny. You think waterboarding brown people is something these brainwashed kids have a problem with?
 
2008-03-12 11:48:50 AM  
UnkleKrakker: cameroncrazy1984: Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

2000


I would go with pre Lincoln days.
 
2008-03-12 11:48:50 AM  
tylerdurden217: If they waterboard 3 times and every time they were led on wild goose chases, they would hopefully stop and use more effective methods

I answered your question regarding this above and you ignored my answer, choosing instead to go for the low-hanging fruit in easier responses. You don't actually care about having a real discussion. You're just a troll.
 
2008-03-12 11:48:53 AM  
Hawkish types, here is the opposing view clarified so hopefully you understand it:

Nobody is suggesting we cry poor weepy tears for terrorists. If you say that is what people are doing, you are resorting to Rush Douchnozzle rhetoric instead of actually thinking with your brain - which is that greyish pink thing in your head.

The point of the outrage is that we - like the Republicans' own Saint Reagan in the 80's - believe in America and the concept of the United States of America as a country that should be a model to the rest of the world. Moral leadership, shining city on the hill, yadda yadda.

If the United States uses torture, we can not begin to pretend to have moral leadership, or be an example to the world.

Is it worth American lives to NOT use these techniques? Yes, you bet your sweet ass it is. That's why we fought a war for independence from England, why we fought WWII, and why we opposed the Soviet Union for so long. We have a Constitution and a Bill of Rights. Those are our freedoms. Those are what people have fought and died for - they are not to be compromised because of fear or political affiliation.
 
2008-03-12 11:49:06 AM  
Phil Herup: I just can't see how people want to protect and coddle those people who would do us harm.

Bunch of wussies here on FARK today.


I'm sure you'll be saying the same thing when your best friend is labeled a terrorist and becomes a "detainee." Someone accused him! He must be tortured, because he probably might have some information.
 
2008-03-12 11:49:11 AM  
Shaggy_C :The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.

You got to be FARKING kidding me!
Oh no you didn't.. Oh fark no!

You don't slam all Muslims, some of whom were forcefully indoctrinated into that religion (through peer pressure, social prejudices and persecutions, etc), for the acts of the few insane fideists.

this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us.

Your cult has damaged America far more than any Muslim acts, you Farking Fidieist cult follower. Don't believe you follow a cult? Take a look at the forced indoctrination apparent in your first three commandments! Look at what this cult has done to our schools, tolerance, science and politics.

Farking religious terrorist.
 
2008-03-12 11:49:13 AM  
It's particularly charming to see how John McCain, who due to torture can not raise his hands above his head, caved in to the demands of the Cheney Administration and endorsed Bush's veto in favor of torture. So much for "straight talk," so much for "courage."

To think that once McCain had the courage to suit up and charge into the North Vietnam SAM belt day after day. And now he has been reduced to bending the knee before the depraved draft-dodging sadist Cheney and the contemptible Duh-Byuh, such a complete coward and slacker that he deserted the Texas Air National Guard in the face of a piss-test. How far McCain has sunk. I guess decades of banging lobbyist-financed whores takes the strength out of a man.
 
2008-03-12 11:49:19 AM  
clancifer: As liberal as I am on many subjects, I really have no problem with us waterboarding these jackasses. Seems to have worked on a few subjects so far.

Question: Would KSM be free today if we had not waterboarded him?
 
2008-03-12 11:49:31 AM  
Sum Dum Gai: I'd say waterboarding is far worse than bamboo under your fingernails. Waterboarding can easily kill you, either by drowning or by triggering heart failure. And even if you survive, the lack of oxygen to the brain can cause permanent damage.

I'm prolly a little over-squeamish about toe/finger nails, but I think I'd rather drown or die of a heart attack then have something forceably shoved up under my fingernails. Even hearing about people injuring and losing their fingernails makes me retch.
 
2008-03-12 11:49:46 AM  
Phil Herup: I just can't see how people want to protect and coddle those people who would do us harm.

Bunch of wussies here on FARK today.


What a brilliantly strucutred and convincing argument! Your debating club must have been sad to let you go.
 
2008-03-12 11:50:31 AM  
I love all the cartoons showing ONLY Bush being happy about torture .... Um ...... Wasn't this about the NEW democrat controlled CONGRESS? Weren't they going to change everything?

// yes it's trolling ...yet also painfully true
// accountability shouldn't be selective ... should it?

//STILL VOTING FOR OBAMA
 
2008-03-12 11:50:40 AM  
Web_Slinger: What's next? Will we be a nation that condones elephant walks, panty raids? Oh the humanity, we are teh EVIL! Please love us Osama!

It will be interesting to observe our "patriotic" moron's flailing and wailing when their sons are taken prisoner and tortured, just because the US said torture is swell.

People who "think" as you apparently do are cowards and traitors.
 
2008-03-12 11:50:41 AM  
Phil Herup: I just can't see how people want to protect and coddle those people who would do us harm.

Bunch of wussies here on FARK today.


I agree... why don't they just vote the bastards out of office!

You did mean Congress, right?
 
2008-03-12 11:50:44 AM  
The most recent issue of 'Foreign Policy' is, in large part, about the torture debate. One of the 'articles' (FPTV, actually) is expert FBI interrogator giving his experiences and view on techniques and torture.

It's fairly short and quite informative/interesting.
Link (new window)

/Haven't read the thread.
//Off to do that now.
 
2008-03-12 11:51:07 AM  
tylerdurden217: The military is capable of governing themselves in this case. Congress shouldn't be involved especially NOT when they have much bigger issues to deal with domestically.

What you're suggesting is having a military whose actions are limited by no U.S. laws. That'd make the military a pretty powerful entity, wouldn't it?
 
2008-03-12 11:51:11 AM  
domenad: Al Qaeda just sent us the fingers of four kidnapped Austrian tourists, but you guys make sure that Bushiatler doesn't pour water on anybody. That would be a real crime.

The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don't deserve our sympathy. But this is not about who they are. It is about who we are. -Sen. John McCain
 
2008-03-12 11:51:29 AM  
Shaggy_C: Empire' implies ownership or sovereignty.

The modern world is complex to the point where I think dominion can be achieved without literal sovereign control and the English language changes to reflect such things. I think people who seek to minimize our impact and influence on the world froth at the mouth over the use of the word "empire", but why do we have to apologize for it?

we're here! we're queeran empire! get used to it!
 
2008-03-12 11:51:52 AM  
Just changed my party affiliation to Democrat on Monday. I'm ashamed of the Republicans and this country, in general.
 
2008-03-12 11:52:03 AM  
Sabalo: As a completely off-topic aside... I get called an evil conservative social darwinist in the economic freedoms threads, and a sissy whining liberal in the social freedoms threads. Always amusing, always amusing.

Don't you love that? Libs call me scum as often as Cons. I like to think that it means I think for myself.
 
2008-03-12 11:52:13 AM  
Shaggy_C: Question: Would KSM be free today if we had not waterboarded him?

Are you saying that the only evidence we have against him is a confession that was given under torture?
 
2008-03-12 11:52:22 AM  
tylerdurden217: All I can find is that they wanted to limit the MI to the "19 interrogation methods approved in the Army field manual".

go to www.thomas.gov (this is the Library of Congress' official legislative information site)

Enter "HR 2082" in the search window, specifying "bill number", and voila, you've got the whole thing to read for yourself.

It's relatively unencumbered with amendments, and none appear to unrelated to "Inteligence Authorization".
 
2008-03-12 11:52:55 AM  
docmattic: Totally agree... if you want to show the world that your way is better, then lead by example!

I would say that we do lead by example. Even Michael Moore pointed out the excellent health care given to detainees at Guantanamo. There are all treated very well unless extreme methods are called for.

I find it hard to believe that waterboarding is used just for entertainment purposes. "These guys are cooperating, but I want to see the look in Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's eyes when he thinks he's gonna die."

Was it effective? maybe not... but it's not worth the time and energy spent by our government. It has turned into a bunch of monkeys throwing crap at each other in Congress. Neither side makes any sense in this debate. All I'm saying is that I want our own system to be fixed before we worry about telling the MI guys how to do their jobs.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:03 AM  
cameroncrazy1984: Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

When people realized they could abdicate their personal responsibilities to the government in return for relative financial security.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:04 AM  
gotrootdude: You don't slam all Muslims, some of whom were forcefully indoctrinated into that religion (through peer pressure, social prejudices and persecutions, etc), for the acts of the few insane fideists.

The only thing more evil than a Moslem is an Angry Atheist. You should really come to grips with reality - the world is a place where Morality reigns Supreme. I know that you people may not understand this concept, but you and the Moslems will when you come to the Gates of Heaven and Saint Peter banishes you for your insolence. The Lord gave us the Freedom of Will...Sadly some of us, like yourself, use it for Nefarious Purposes. Good day Good sir, but I cannot listen to your Sinful ranting any further.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:30 AM  
Tearing out fingernails is torture.
Gouging out eyeballs is torture.
Giving somebody a few turns on the rack is torture.
Pouring water on somebody's inclined head is uncomfortable, but not torture. If making somebody "uncomfortable" is torture, then I guess we have to open up all the prisons across the country and let all the convicts loose, because prison sure is uncomfortable.

Screw 'em. The little weasels are lucky to even still be breathing.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:33 AM  
tweekster: UnkleKrakker: cameroncrazy1984: Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

2000

I would go with pre Lincoln days.


Even the South fought for their perceived ideals freedom. Now Congress & the People bend over on a regular basis. Even with a Democrat plurality.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:34 AM  
Shaggy_C:

Would KSM be free today if we had not waterboarded him?

According to the fervent, if it were up to the Libs! Libs! Libs! he'd be sitting in a Mosque at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue right now working out the finer details of the New Caliphate.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:45 AM  
Gecko Gingrich: Sabalo: As a completely off-topic aside... I get called an evil conservative social darwinist in the economic freedoms threads, and a sissy whining liberal in the social freedoms threads. Always amusing, always amusing.

Don't you love that? Libs call me scum as often as Cons. I like to think that it means I think for myself.


In the old days, you would have been known as a Conservative Democrat or a Liberal Republican. But now there is no grey - only black and white.
 
2008-03-12 11:53:58 AM  
so the republican president-elect (who has been tortured) opposed the bill, but the lame duck president and virtually every other republican was in favor of it

it was either only a nominal opposition, or he's not very persuasive, is he?
 
2008-03-12 11:54:00 AM  
clancifer: As liberal as I am on many subjects, I really have no problem with us waterboarding these jackasses. Seems to have worked on a few subjects so far.

I posted this upthread - the one subject that the pro-torture people hold up for proof of it working is Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, who after torture, confessed to:
* Planning 9/11
* The February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City
* A failed "shoe bomber" operation
* The October 2002 attack in Kuwait
* The nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia
* A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major U.S. landmarks to be set in the spring or summer of 2002 after the 9/11 attacks, which includes more hijackings of commercial airlines and having them flown into various buildings in the U.S. including the Library Tower in Los Angeles , the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Plaza Bank building in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York
* Plots to attack oil tankers and U.S. naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore
* A plan to blow up the Panama Canal
* Plans to assassinate Jimmy Carter
* A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York City
* A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago with burning fuel trucks
* Plans to "destroy" Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London
* A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand
* A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other U.S. financial targets
* A plan to destroy buildings in Eilat, Israel
* Plans to destroy U.S. embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan in 2002.
* Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia
* Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok
* Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them
* The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya
* The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport in Kenya
* Plans to attack U.S. targets in South Korea
* Providing financial support for a plan to attack U.S., British and Jewish targets in Turkey
* Surveillance of U.S. nuclear power plants in order to attack them
* A plot to attack NATO's headquarters in Europe
* Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets
* The planned assassination attempt against then-U.S. President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines.
* "Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II
* Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf
* An attempt to attack a U.S. oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former [U.S.] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger"
* The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl

Suuuuure, torture works. And I can pull a unicorn out of my ass.
 
2008-03-12 11:54:36 AM  
i2.photobucket.com

So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

What you probably don't realize is that by international law, we can legally KILL captured terrorists any time we want to. No trial, no nothing. If we are extra nice, we might ask their name first before we kill them, but it's not required.

If we wanted to, we could cut their heads off with survival knives just like they do. We could hang them, shoot them, electrocute them, burn them alive, feed them agonizing poison, or drown or strangle them. But hey, we don't do that, because we are extra nice.

But if you are planning to kill thousands of innocent civilians, like the few guys we waterboarded, who are still alive, mind you, then you should not be surprised if we are a little less nice.

Mind you, we are still the good guys. But we are not cool at all to the idea of you killing thousands of our civilians.

So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.
 
2008-03-12 11:54:56 AM  
xkillyourfacex: Is "empire" supposed to be a bad-word?

that's what I'm saying, I don't get why it gets so called "conservatives" all flinchy..
 
2008-03-12 11:54:59 AM  
vernonFL: Are you saying that the only evidence we have against him is a confession that was given under torture?

Look at clancifer's original statement. I'm just saying that waterboarding him really got us nothing out of the deal, as it didn't prevent any attacks and we would have kept him locked up anyways. Sure, it's nice to hear him confess, but what do we really gain out of it other than some smug satisfaction?
 
2008-03-12 11:55:02 AM  
Gecko Gingrich: Sabalo: As a completely off-topic aside... I get called an evil conservative social darwinist in the economic freedoms threads, and a sissy whining liberal in the social freedoms threads. Always amusing, always amusing.

Don't you love that? Libs call me scum as often as Cons. I like to think that it means I think for myself.


It usually does. Fark is hardly a civil arena, but I can appreciate a differing viewpoint as long as it is well thought out, logical, and subject to change based on evidence and reason.
 
2008-03-12 11:55:13 AM  
Shaggy_C: The only thing more evil than a Moslem is an Angry Atheist. You should really come to grips with reality - the world is a place where Morality reigns Supreme. I know that you people may not understand this concept, but you and the Moslems will when you come to the Gates of Heaven and Saint Peter banishes you for your insolence. The Lord gave us the Freedom of Will...Sadly some of us, like yourself, use it for Nefarious Purposes. Good day Good sir, but I cannot listen to your Sinful ranting any further.

Great troll! A++++++ Would read again!
 
2008-03-12 11:55:17 AM  
If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

Well, except... y'know... being tortured.
 
2008-03-12 11:55:35 AM  
Good.
 
2008-03-12 11:56:14 AM  
xkillyourfacex UnkleKrakker the same Constitution with the prohibition against cruel and unusual punishment?

In criminal prosecutions, in the States, presumably against citizens. Nothing is said of other situations of justice. The Constitution, it ain't bad, you should read it some time. Don't invent stuff and assume it's in there.


"nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" xkillyourfacex after a criminal proceeding.

/But it's not a punishment, it's a tool.
 
2008-03-12 11:56:15 AM  
Bartman66: I love all the cartoons showing ONLY Bush being happy about torture .... Um ...... Wasn't this about the NEW democrat controlled CONGRESS? Weren't they going to change everything?

// yes it's trolling ...yet also painfully true
// accountability shouldn't be selective ... should it?

//STILL VOTING FOR OBAMA



Becoming educated on political numbers in Congress, votes needed to override vetos and generally do things. You should do it.

Slim majorities only get you so far. You need minority reps to cross the line to get anything big done. If the minority reps go along party lines, you can't get done what you'd like to get done.
 
2008-03-12 11:56:29 AM  
How the hell can this be considered legal when coughing on a cop is assault. Link (new window)

Or cussing at a police dog gets you jail time, but go ahead and waterboard a person you kidnapped across state lines is fine.

United States of Hypocrites
 
2008-03-12 11:56:38 AM  
where'd i put that for...

ah, there it is.

mmmmmmmm...gluteus maximus!
 
2008-03-12 11:57:00 AM  
docmattic What a brilliantly strucutred and convincing argument! Your debating club must have been sad to let you go.

Because "Bush is Hitler!" is so much better.

cameroncrazy1984 I'm sure you'll be saying the same thing when your best friend is labeled a terrorist and becomes a "detainee." Someone accused him! He must be tortured, because he probably might have some information.

Do I detect... Why, yes, I do detect a bit of FEAR TACTICS coming from the left here. So that's what this is all about. The Democrats are going to scare everyone into voting their way by telling them they're going to be tortured by an illegal fascist, barbarous regime? Take your fear card and play it somewhere else. Now it's obvious to me this isn't about human dignity and torture, it's about politics with you people.
 
2008-03-12 11:57:21 AM  
When was the last time you Americans had a good ol' fashioned filibuster? They are a whole lot of fun and, well, the occasion seems to call for one.

Go on! Have a filibuster! You know you want to!

/Big up on the filibuster.
//besides, it's a fun word to type.
///filibuster
 
2008-03-12 11:57:28 AM  
Whatever happened to "under duress". I used to have to sign papers that stated the papers I signed were not signed "under duress".

/That's different than a confession?
 
2008-03-12 11:57:42 AM  
JewZeppy: joethorne.
Does anyone have a cogent argument against torture in the arena of terrorism (leaving out the problems with that definition) that isn't based primarily on "it's wrong"?
I'm not really in either camp, I'm just curious.

Ummm, how do you know it is terrorists that are being tortured?


DUH! You torture them until they admit to being terrorists.
 
2008-03-12 11:58:10 AM  
tweekster: UnkleKrakker: cameroncrazy1984: Sabalo: I've said that I'd suffer 100 9/11s if it was the price of freedom, and I stand by it.

I would too. Give me liberty or give me death. When did that go out of style?

2000

I would go with pre Lincoln days.


I would say when Patrick Henry was given death. It was a quote from a statesman, not penned in the Constitution.
 
2008-03-12 11:58:15 AM  
tylerdurden217: Waterboarding would have probably been preferred over the methods used because you don't DIE when waterboarded.

You can.

I'm guessing you used 1% of the 2.3 Million Americans... if so you IGNORED the fact that I said that the American prisoners actually are protected by the Constitution of the US. (Eighth Amendment)

-Not *once* does The Constitution or Bill of Rights state that the protections listed in them are limited to US citizens.
-There are non-US citizens in US prisons.
 
2008-03-12 11:58:19 AM  
someonelse: What you're suggesting is having a military whose actions are limited by no U.S. laws. That'd make the military a pretty powerful entity, wouldn't it?

No. No. No. That's not even close to what I'm saying. You even have EXACTLY what I said "The military is capable of governing themselves in this case." IN THIS CASE. I didn't EVER say the Military shouldn't have rules. I didn't even say there are NEVER cases where the Military needs laws. I simply said IN THIS CASE I trust them to use their own judgment. And I also said there are MANY bigger issues at home. Now if everything was Utopian in the US and Congress had nothing better to do than deal with this one interrogation method, fine. Otherwise I wish they would deal with what are so obviously bigger domestic issues.
 
2008-03-12 12:00:09 PM  
Jamrock: President Bush should do is go on national television get waterboarded

This would be the best Pay-Per-View special EVAR.
 
2008-03-12 12:00:19 PM  
Step 1: Go against the values of the Constitution
Step 2: Call all dissenters 'unpatriotic'
Step 3: Torture the brown peopl... I mean PROFIT!
 
2008-03-12 12:00:49 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

Why, yes. You've captured the essence of people's opposition to the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique perfectly. Opposing the use of waterboarding = being totally cool with decapitation by terrorists. Your argument is irrefutable. I am in awe of your blinding logic. Excuse my while I take a moment to come to grips with your stunning intellectual superiority.
 
2008-03-12 12:01:55 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

False dichotomy. Troll point #1.

What you probably don't realize is that by international law, we can legally KILL captured terrorists any time we want to. No trial, no nothing. If we are extra nice, we might ask their name first before we kill them, but it's not required.

False information. The Geneva Convention requires competent military tribunals to determine whether the captured prisoner is a POW or an enemy combatant. Troll point #2.

If we wanted to, we could cut their heads off with survival knives just like they do.

Violation of the US Code of Military Justice. In other words, illegal. Troll point #3.

We could hang them, shoot them, electrocute them, burn them alive, feed them agonizing poison, or drown or strangle them. But hey, we don't do that, because we are extra nice.

Strawman. Troll point #4.

But if you are planning to kill thousands of innocent civilians, like the few guys we waterboarded, who are still alive...

False information. Waterboarding can and has resulted in death. Troll point #5

...mind you, then you should not be surprised if we are a little less nice.
Mind you, we are still the good guys. But we are not cool at all to the idea of you killing thousands of our civilians.


Misleading. Many of those captured and waterboarded were later released with no charges. They didn't kill thousands of our civilians. Troll point #6.

So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

False dichotomy. Troll point #7.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

Ad hominem based on religious bigotry, and an odd one considering Islam and Christianity have the same god. Troll point #8.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

False dichotomy. Troll point #9.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.

Annnnnd false dichotomy. 10 for 10!

school.discoveryeducation.com
 
2008-03-12 12:02:09 PM  
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Some crackpots wrote that, and while they were not perfect, they did understand that the rights they wanted protected were rights that every person has by the sheer fact of existence.

I don't condone what terrorists do, or what they believe... but neither can I condone my own countrypeople ignoring our fundamental philosophy because they're scared of dying. Our new philosophy as a nation seems to be "give me liberty or give me a bogus excuse to hide behind while you take away my liberty to protect me from scary things."

Condoning torture isn't brave or hardcore. It's cowardly and weak. A real tough guy wouldn't be willing to sacrifice justice... even for the most abysmal, scumbaggish person... for some small measure of perceived safety.
 
2008-03-12 12:02:13 PM  
xkillyourfacex: Because "Bush is Hitler!" is so much better.

Your straw man, let me take it down for you.

/somewhere, Godwin is smiling again...
 
2008-03-12 12:02:25 PM  
tylerdurden217:
I find it hard to believe that waterboarding is used just for entertainment purposes. "These guys are cooperating, but I want to see the look in Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's eyes when he thinks he's gonna die."



Here's another guy who also has many common traits as you republicans. Happy to hear you condone these type of actions and share the same bloodlust.

upload.wikimedia.org

Maybe they should like Dennis out so he can join the USMC, or the CIA? He is the exact type of sick deluded person they need to who perform the now legal task.

Its funny how you call yourselfs Christians and go to church thinking there is heaven waiting for you holy ass and your dead parents will be there.
 
2008-03-12 12:02:31 PM  
Land of the free .......... to be jailed without representation and to be tortured with the blessing of the American people.

/again ... soooo damn ashamed to be an American under this administration
 
2008-03-12 12:03:16 PM  
Remember this during the election. Remember that this wasn't just a Republican failure - it was a Democratic failure as well.

WHAT? Democrats vote to get rid of it, Bush vetoes it (Republican) and the cowardly anti-American Republicans do not assist the Democrats in the override.

Sounds pretty straightforwardly a Republican problem to me. Why in the hell these people claim to love America, the Constitution, and Jesus is beyond me. Because they obviously love none of those things.
 
2008-03-12 12:03:47 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with...

That used a lot of space to be completely wrong.

International treaties govern the treatment of criminals & terrorists. Perhaps you might aquaint yourself with a few of them.
But they were probably written up by liberals.
 
2008-03-12 12:03:58 PM  
whammer

It's legal to kill people in lots of different situations. The guy ready to throw a firebomb at school bus full of nuns, etc. Doesn't mean I should be able to torture them. How do you come to that conclusion?
 
2008-03-12 12:04:11 PM  
gotrootdude: Shaggy_C :The muslems cut heads off and don't obey any law either so who cares if we do it to terrusts thay get what they deserve becuase they want to kill us and if you disagree you are just a stupid lib who hates america this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us. Go America! I hope you hateful liberals who want to sell us out go the way of Rachel Corrie.

You got to be FARKING kidding me!
Oh no you didn't.. Oh fark no!

You don't slam all Muslims, some of whom were forcefully indoctrinated into that religion (through peer pressure, social prejudices and persecutions, etc), for the acts of the few insane fideists.

this is the battle the Lord has chosen for us.

Your cult has damaged America far more than any Muslim acts, you Farking Fidieist cult follower. Don't believe you follow a cult? Take a look at the forced indoctrination apparent in your first three commandments! Look at what this cult has done to our schools, tolerance, science and politics.

Farking religious terrorist.


I think you fell for intense sarcasm.

I think.
 
2008-03-12 12:04:12 PM  
tylerdurden217:
If that is indeed the case, I would let the MI officers decide that on their own. If they waterboard 3 times and every time they were led on wild goose chases, they would hopefully stop and use more effective methods.

Meanwhile your meaningful intel expires. Switching methods does not increase accuracy, nor does it expedite sorting good from bad. You have gone nowhere with this comment in terms of countering my point. Switching tactics only makes the process MORE inefficient.

There is no way to prove that they are torturing because we do. Our enemy is using tactics that we think are unethical. Without IEDs, suicide bombs, etc they wouldn't even be in this fight. They aren't doing this because we are waterboarding 3 people in Guantanamo bay, they are doing it because it's the only method they have of fighting that actually works.

I was speaking in general terms. Our future enemies can look to Iraq as an example of our interpretation of Geneva. They will be able to use this as a tool in future diplomacy, and if it came to it, war. They will always have the argument "America did it first." I had larger, actually dangerous to the homeland, conflicts in mind.

In essence Iraq is feeding our future enemies. They can load up at the trough of our bad example, and our actions will come back to haunt us when we face an actual threat. This is history we are creating, and it will not go away simply because we elect someone else.

These are not limp and antique values that the past 8 years have tried to mash into the ground. These rules were established by those with experience and an actual sense of history. Geneva treats war as a chess game. Monkey Boy and the goon squad are trying to play checkers in Iraq, and in selling the war at home.
Even if we somehow "win" the war in Iraq, we are losing credibility and respect.


 
2008-03-12 12:04:59 PM  
you've got them on the run, whammer. move in for the kill
 
2008-03-12 12:05:08 PM  
RecliningBuddha: I am ashamed of my country.

I am ashamed of your country
 
2008-03-12 12:05:16 PM  
tylerdurden217: someonelse: What you're suggesting is having a military whose actions are limited by no U.S. laws. That'd make the military a pretty powerful entity, wouldn't it?

No. No. No. That's not even close to what I'm saying. You even have EXACTLY what I said "The military is capable of governing themselves in this case." IN THIS CASE. I didn't EVER say the Military shouldn't have rules. I didn't even say there are NEVER cases where the Military needs laws. I simply said IN THIS CASE I trust them to use their own judgment. And I also said there are MANY bigger issues at home. Now if everything was Utopian in the US and Congress had nothing better to do than deal with this one interrogation method, fine. Otherwise I wish they would deal with what are so obviously bigger domestic issues.


But the "in this case" of your argument covers everything the military is allowed to do to anyone (any non U.S. citizen?) in its custody, if it is not governed by U.S. laws. That's a lot of lawless latitude to give the armed forces.
 
2008-03-12 12:05:39 PM  
zelachang: Good. What else are our interrogators going to do when they need to get that information? American lives depend on this practice people.

img249.imageshack.us

Drink up, oh wait it looks like you already did.
 
2008-03-12 12:05:40 PM  
Well I just raped the italics tag didn't I.
 
2008-03-12 12:05:55 PM  
Theaetetus:

I was forming a rebuttal to whammers diatribe when luckily I hit refresh by accident and saw your post and decided you had handled it masterfully already. Well said. Well said indeed.
 
2008-03-12 12:06:05 PM  
Headso: Shaggy_C: Empire' implies ownership or sovereignty.

The modern world is complex to the point where I think dominion can be achieved without literal sovereign control and the English language changes to reflect such things. I think people who seek to minimize our impact and influence on the world froth at the mouth over the use of the word "empire", but why do we have to apologize for it?

we're here! we're queeran empire! get used to it!


the cool kids use the term "hegemony"
 
2008-03-12 12:06:30 PM  
I've been re-reading the posts and they strongly indicate that Democrats are more thrilled to use this as political leverage than they are disheartened by all the poor tortured souls.

Now, what keeps you up at night, photoshopping Bush on a Nazi soldier and designing anti-Bush posters and fliers to put up all over town, or crying for the innocents we have locked away being tortured in secret off-shore prisons? Hmmm, I wonder...
 
2008-03-12 12:07:08 PM  
If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?
 
2008-03-12 12:07:23 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: tweekster: I was trying to avoid people bringing up the Spanish inquisition and other things that happened hundreds of years ago. But rather for people to give a recent example consisting of generations that are still alive and in power.

Sorry, I got you and binnster confused. He had previously said "entire history of the world".


Erm, actually, I said "history of the planet", and I was quoting Tweekster.
 
2008-03-12 12:08:07 PM  
Fibber McLiarson: Theaetetus:

I was forming a rebuttal to whammers diatribe when luckily I hit refresh by accident and saw your post and decided you had handled it masterfully already. Well said. Well said indeed.


I've already run joethorn out of here, and tylerdurden217 has resorted to ignoring me. Any bets on what whammer does?
 
2008-03-12 12:08:21 PM  

How do we know that the terrorists don't like and enjoy "intense information extraction techniques?" One might arugue that they cry out in joy.

C'mon...it's just a little water!

 
2008-03-12 12:08:36 PM  
A Tout Le Monde: I think you fell for intense sarcasm.

Poe's law, no parody or satire of religious zealots will be successful, because someone somewhere has seen a zealot that stupid.
 
2008-03-12 12:08:53 PM  
xkillyourfacex: Now, what keeps you up at night, photoshopping Bush on a Nazi soldier and designing anti-Bush posters and fliers to put up all over town, or crying for the innocents we have locked away being tortured in secret off-shore prisons?

Nah... your mom begging me for the hot beef injection. So, nyah!
 
2008-03-12 12:08:57 PM  
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security - Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. - The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

I can haz constitutional convention?
 
2008-03-12 12:09:31 PM  
letdogsvote

well spoken for such an "apologist"
The problem is fools/blind party sheep like yourself see nothing wrong with "your" side when the rest of us, who don't have the heads buried in the sand can see the reality.
Yes we all understand the "political numbers" but why is it that they are so poor at "bringing both sides together" as they proclaimed to get elected and "take us in a new direction" that they have been so ineffective in accomplishing anything that they said they would?
// What was your reasoning for voting? Weren't you expecting and promised change? That is was one of the main reasons I voted. I hated what the republicans were doing and bought into the dems promises, and what exactly did I get for my vote?
// Should have voted for myself, would have gotten the same results
 
2008-03-12 12:09:42 PM  
"Allow me to explain how our federal government works. To begin with, by the federal government I mean Democrats and Republicans working together. And the only thing dumber than a Democrat or a Republican is when those pricks work together. You see, in our two-party system, the Democrats are the party of no ideas and the Republicans are the party of bad ideas. It usually goes something like this. A Republican will stand up in Congress and say, "I've got a really bad idea." And a Democrat will immediately jump to his feet and declare, "And I can make it shiattier.""

-Lewis Black (new window)
 
2008-03-12 12:10:00 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?


Experts in interrogation agree that the ticking time-bomb scenario is pretty much a myth. Stop using it.
 
2008-03-12 12:10:10 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?


If you had a 100% accurate crystal ball, knew of a definite terrorist plot, and didn't turn the information over to the authorities, should we torture you? Hmmm?

Look, cockjockey, you bar, any time your false dichotomy of an argument relies on your premise of a magic 100% accurate crystal ball, there's a good chance that it's not a valid argument.
 
2008-03-12 12:10:13 PM  
Jeffrey.Rodriguez: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new guards for their future security - Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. - The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let facts be submitted to a candid world.

I can haz constitutional convention?


While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!
 
2008-03-12 12:10:14 PM  
Ohh good, now its ok to torture to get information, and this is allright with some of you?

When the cops waterboard you when you are arrested on minor drug charges, so they can find out who your supplier is, will it still be allright?

When the police waterboard you to find out how fast you was going when you had an auto accident, will that be allright?

When you are waterboarded to learn your political party, will that be allright? Remember, its not torture, so its allright to do to anyone in order to get information you want.

Americans should riot, and riot hard, right now. This is a dangerous, slipery game our government is playing and they have never shown restraint before, why would they now?
 
2008-03-12 12:10:15 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?


C:
You already know his plan because of your crystal ball and catch him in the act. Thus guaranteeing a life sentence.
 
2008-03-12 12:10:20 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Not *once* does The Constitution or Bill of Rights state that the protections listed in them are limited to US citizens.

So if it doesn't explicitly say either way, then it is up for the courts to decide. What ever court has jurisdiction will need to interpret. I would have less of a problem with that then a new law. If the Bill of Rights protects prisoners of war at Guantanamo Bay, so be it. Then we definitely don't need new legislature.

There are non-US citizens in US prisons.

And it has already been interpreted that they are protected by the constitution. I hope I didn't give the impression that I think it's okay to torture people just because they aren't American.
 
2008-03-12 12:10:37 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?


www.tattoosymbol.com
happycarpenter.blogs.com
 
2008-03-12 12:10:40 PM  
After sufficient depth of reflection, carefully parsing out the details and agendas involved, I blame the Governor of New York, Elliot Spitzer, for this problem.
 
2008-03-12 12:10:58 PM  
Skwidd: They're already provoked. They're pissed because fundy Islam isn't the go-to civilization of choice on this planet. "They hate our freedoms" is just the shorthand soundbite version of this concept, simplified so the mouth-breathing masses can understand it. Anything else the Islamikazes throw out is just an afterthought justification.

In the period right after the 9/11 attacks, I had dozens of friends and acquaintances tell me, almost with tears in their eyes, "That's it, I'm joining the Army so I can go and show those bastards what's up!" Now, to be sure, most of them didn't, but a few did. These were people who had never once even considered joining the military, but here they were down at their local recruiter's office.

To use another anecdote, my sister had a boyfriend who was so cruel to her when they broke up that she attempted to kill her self. My father, my two brothers and I all vowed to break his kneecaps if we ever saw him again.

You don't think that, upon hearing that the US tortured your cousin to death (even if that never happened), a few family members would join up to avenge his death?
 
2008-03-12 12:11:10 PM  
I think that's from the Declaration of Independence. It might not have the same legislative "umpph" as the Constitution.
 
2008-03-12 12:11:28 PM  
Theaetetus: I've already run joethorn out of here, and tylerdurden217 has resorted to ignoring me.

I'm not ignoring, had to take a phone call. Unfortunately I can't dedicate 100% of my time to debating this.

I am here though.
 
2008-03-12 12:11:56 PM  
So... getting watered down with a pillowcase over your head = torture
-but- having your head stuffed & flushed down the locker-room crapper weekly is just a prank, right?

/got it.
 
2008-03-12 12:12:07 PM  
Yes it was a ridiculous analogy. But it was geared toward those who would rather see 100 9/11s than a single torture to extract information.
 
2008-03-12 12:12:14 PM  
barjockey:
Geez, thanks for giving only two possible and diametrically opposed outcomes in your hypothetical situation. Let's add a few:
C) He is captured, waterboarded, and gives false information that gets us no further ahead
D) The heavens part, and The Great Spaghetti Monster gives ponies to everyone who has participated in waterboarding.

/Ramen!
 
2008-03-12 12:12:21 PM  
whammer: So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.


What makes you think torture is effective? What about the thousands of Americans who will die because of our use of torture?

Hopefully the people who make the laws will be able to answer these simple questions.
 
2008-03-12 12:12:27 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don't deserve our sympathy. But this is not about who they are. It is about who we are. ~ Sen. John McCain

This isn't a liberal versus conservative issue.
 
2008-03-12 12:12:41 PM  
tylerdurden217: I'm not ignoring, had to take a phone call. Unfortunately I can't dedicate 100% of my time to debating this.

You simply ignore the responses that you can't answer and go for the low-hanging fruit.

That'd be the definition of a troll, Sparky.
 
2008-03-12 12:15:24 PM  
Phil Herup: I just can't see how people want to protect and coddle those people who would do us harm.

It's the Christian thing to do.
 
2008-03-12 12:15:35 PM  
barjockey: Yes it was a ridiculous analogy. But it was geared toward those who would rather see 100 9/11s than a single torture to extract information.

If you have to resort to a self-admitted ridiculous analogy to even make an attempt to prove your point, and it still gets torn down, maybe your point is wrong.

Sorry, not maybe. It is. My magic crystal balls say so.
 
2008-03-12 12:15:40 PM  
Muhahahahahahahahahaha

Waterboarding the enemy is fun!

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
 
2008-03-12 12:16:42 PM  
So now that it's legal, are we gonna un-execute the Japanese soldiers who did this to Americans in WWII?
 
2008-03-12 12:16:44 PM  
redufo: Here's another guy who also has many common traits as you republicans.

I'm not a Republican. All I have said is that our Congress should spend more time on domestic issues than the specifics of interrogation techniques.

Unfortunately this issue is Republicans vs Democrats and THAT IS EXACTLY what I hate about it. How has this (like so many other things) turned into Red vs Blue? Why not have intelligent debate about things without siding with our political affiliation??
 
2008-03-12 12:17:14 PM  
barjockey
If I had a crystal ball

'nuff said.
 
2008-03-12 12:17:19 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?



In the absense of 100% accurate crystal balls, I'm going to go with option C:

C) Shut up Barjockey, you cock.
 
2008-03-12 12:17:41 PM  
Theaetetus Quote 2008-03-12 12:01:55 PM
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

False dichotomy. Troll point #1.

What you probably don't realize is that by international law, we can legally KILL captured terrorists any time we want to. No trial, no nothing. If we are extra nice, we might ask their name first before we kill them, but it's not required.

False information. The Geneva Convention requires competent military tribunals to determine whether the captured prisoner is a POW or an enemy combatant. Troll point #2.

If we wanted to, we could cut their heads off with survival knives just like they do.

Violation of the US Code of Military Justice. In other words, illegal. Troll point #3.

We could hang them, shoot them, electrocute them, burn them alive, feed them agonizing poison, or drown or strangle them. But hey, we don't do that, because we are extra nice.

Strawman. Troll point #4.

But if you are planning to kill thousands of innocent civilians, like the few guys we waterboarded, who are still alive...

False information. Waterboarding can and has resulted in death. Troll point #5

...mind you, then you should not be surprised if we are a little less nice.
Mind you, we are still the good guys. But we are not cool at all to the idea of you killing thousands of our civilians.

Misleading. Many of those captured and waterboarded were later released with no charges. They didn't kill thousands of our civilians. Troll point #6.

So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

False dichotomy. Troll point #7.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

Ad hominem based on religious bigotry, and an odd one considering Islam and Christianity have the same god. Troll point #8.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

False dichotomy. Troll point #9.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.

Annnnnd false dichotomy. 10 for 10!



artfiles.art.com
Diddle-a-din de dinnnn!!
 
2008-03-12 12:17:54 PM  
www.thespinningimage.co.uk
Did the Germans quit when we bombed Japan?
 
2008-03-12 12:18:04 PM  
THX 1138: So now that it's legal, are we gonna un-execute the Japanese soldiers who did this to Americans in WWII?

Japanese soldier zombies? I looooove it!
 
2008-03-12 12:18:39 PM  
barjockey: If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate

I'd know where the bomb was and could thwart the plan without having to resort to torture.

Shut up, barjockey, you cock.

/always wanted to say that!
 
2008-03-12 12:18:49 PM  
Facetious_Speciest: Jamrock

I went through worse shiat in Marine Core training.

Voluntarily, soldier. When you don't volunteer, it's torture.


Either you are being sort of funny or really funny.

Only you know.
 
2008-03-12 12:18:52 PM  
Theaetetus: That'd be the definition of a troll, Sparky.

No it's not. I have a job. Though I should be dedicating 100% of my time to that, I'm debating this. Don't get me wrong, I want to be doing this, I just have to avoid being fired.

Also consider the fact that I'm responding to A LOT of people. Some how there are very few people even close to my side on this topic. I'm not trolling. I'm on topic and I happen to have an opinion different from yours on waterboarding.
 
2008-03-12 12:19:23 PM  
Bartman66: I love all the cartoons showing ONLY Bush being happy about torture .... Um ...... Wasn't this about the NEW democrat controlled CONGRESS? Weren't they going to change everything?

Civics. Take a class one day.
 
2008-03-12 12:19:29 PM  
Get over it.

We torture.

Your American ideals of the U.S. being the "good guys" is about 60 years outdated.


This is how things work.

See how far righteous indignation gets you geo-politically.


All hail the New American Pragmatist in all his glory. This is the result of allowing government to educate the population. We now have a population that doesn't know right from wrong and justifies all things in the name of pragmatism or expediency.

This mentality of might makes right won't stop with torture of "dark people over there" folks. Everything grows, in time. Just think of the fun you're going to have in the future you're creating for yourselves.

America deserves its impending FAIL. Enjoy it folks, you've earned it.
 
2008-03-12 12:19:33 PM  
barjockey: Yes it was a ridiculous analogy. But it was geared toward those who would rather see 100 9/11s than a single torture to extract information.

If the choices were

A) Remove some freedoms to maybe, possibly protect people... but probably not. (as we're doing)

or

B) Keep the freedoms, suffer an attack if necessary, and retailiate against the responsible parties without violating our ideals.

I go with B, even if it might end up killing me.
 
2008-03-12 12:19:49 PM  
LiebeMachtFrei:
Excellent.
 
2008-03-12 12:19:56 PM  
Shaggy_C: "The only thing more evil than a Moslem is an Angry Atheist. You should really come to grips with reality - the world is a place where Morality reigns Supreme. I know that you people may not understand this concept, but you and the Moslems will when you come to the Gates of Heaven and Saint Peter banishes you for your insolence. The Lord gave us the Freedom of Will...Sadly some of us, like yourself, use it for Nefarious Purposes. Good day Good sir, but I cannot listen to your Sinful ranting any further."

Although I don't fall in the the category of Atheism, I believe this quote matches the situation.

Although I went to college as a youth, I never considered it necessary to steep oneself in academic learning, in order to learn how to think. I welcome a fair and square, open and above-board fight on any subject, including this, but I despise a man who sneaks around under a cloak or cover of any society or clique to strike his blows.
-- Luther Burbank

Just who do you think you are to imply that only the people that follow your religious doctrine are moral? I do not condemn you to a eternity in hell for any small attrition, yet because I rationalize, you condemn me! Oh HELL no. You might as well have condemned babies to hell since they haven't read of Jesus yet, or condemned children of other secular nations to eternity of purgatory. You're supposedly more moral? More arrogant is the terminology I would apply.

Your daddy should bend you over his knee for not knowing how to treat others.
 
2008-03-12 12:20:16 PM  
tylerdurden217: Why not have intelligent debate about things without siding with our political affiliation??

We tried to have an intelligent debate, remember?
You asked: If your child was kidnapped by someone and you were able to detain a person that knew exactly where you child was would you be concerned about the methods someone used to get that info?

I responded:
Yes. Assume that we don't have an unlimited time to find the child - that we're talking the usual Jack Bauer 24-hour scenario, right?

So, you start your torture session, and the guy breaks and says that your child is on Mount Rushmore, stuffed up Washington's nose. It's 8 hours away, however, so do you stop and go look there, or send someone and keep torturing, just in case? Of course, you keep going.
So now you may have the correct information, but you can't verify it for 8 hours.

Another five minutes of torture, and he breaks again and says, "oh, god, please stop! Your kid is in my windowless van with "free candy" painted on the side and it's parked in Death Valley!" Well, that's another 8 hours away. Send another person to check, and keep torturing.

After another five minutes, he says, "please stop! The truth is that he's tied to that tree you can drive through in the Redwood forest in Northern California! This time it's the truth!" But that's also 8 hours away.

At some point, you either run out of people to send, in which case, do you start pulling them back to check new places the guy mentions, or do you ignore the later places that he now insists are the truth?

You have gained absolutely zero useful information, and have wasted a lot of time. Personally, I'd rather negotiate, find the kid, and then punish. But that's because I like effective things.


And you ignored it.
Where's the intelligent debate, tyler?? Debate means you respond to the other side. Not simply ignore it and then whine that you don't get to have an intelligent debate.
 
2008-03-12 12:20:25 PM  
Americans don't fear terrorists; only cowards and traitors fear a faceless enemy.

The human filth who support torture are among Americas worst enemies today. They make us appear frightened and weak to real enemies.

Can we PLEASE have an open season on cowards?
www.bereamall.com
 
2008-03-12 12:21:20 PM  
tweekster
charlatan brown: Awesome, we now have always lived in a country that openly condones torture.

Welcome to every country in the history of the planet.

oh and FTFY


100% THIS

charlatan brown

Operating word: "Openly"

So you'd be OK if we made it illegal and just did it in secret, like every other (ok 99.9%) country in the world?

"Openly" is the key word. The US has its secrets, but is more open about its policies and its actions than many others (China, Russia, Germany, France, UK). It is easy to look at the US and talk about all the bad stuff they do, BECAUSE THEY TELL YOU THEY DO IT.

Be sanctimonious about the use of waterboarding all you want. You are entitled to your opinion. My point is: don't be so obtuse as to use in your arguments against it a claim that this makes us worse than other countries. It just makes us AS BAD.
 
2008-03-12 12:21:41 PM  
The enemy we fight has no respect for human life or human rights. They don't deserve our sympathy. But this is not about who they are. It is about who we are. -Sen. John McCain

Who are we? Americans are not little pussies cowering in fear as Bush and his fellators would have us believe. Democracy, human rights, and the rule of law aren't for the faint of heart. They take courage.

The United States Bill of Rights (12/15/1791)
Preamble
First Amendment - Freedom of speech, press, religion, peaceable assembly, and to petition the government
Second Amendment - Right for the people to keep and bear arms, as well as to maintain a militia
Third Amendment - Protection from quartering of troops
Fourth Amendment - Protection from unreasonable search and seizure
Fifth Amendment - Due process, double jeopardy, self-incrimination, private property
Sixth Amendment - Trial by jury and other rights of the accused
Seventh Amendment - Civil trial by jury
Eighth Amendment - Prohibition of excessive bail, as well as cruel and unusual punishment
Ninth Amendment - Protection of rights not specifically enumerated in the Bill of Rights
Tenth Amendment - Powers of states and people

www.visitingdc.com
 
2008-03-12 12:21:55 PM  
tylerdurden217: No it's not. I have a job. Though I should be dedicating 100% of my time to that, I'm debating this. Don't get me wrong, I want to be doing this, I just have to avoid being fired.

You managed to spend the time to twice respond to my criticism of you not responding to my original response to your question. Somehow, I don't think it's 'cause you're such a good and dedicated worker or have your priorities properly in order.
 
2008-03-12 12:22:31 PM  
barjockey
If I had a crystal ball that was 100% accurate and it showed a terrorist coming to your city in the next couple of days to detonate a nuclear weapon, and the crystal ball showed two outcomes:

A) He is captured, interrogated, waterboarded, confesses and the whole plan is dismantled.

B) He is captured, taken to a strip bar, put up in a 5 star hotel, hookers and blow for a week, given a free T-shirt that says "America didn't torture me, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt", was released, and carried out his plan.

How many liars would rather see option B based on their suddenly found pseudo high horse of America's higher humanitarian standing in times of unconventional war? Hmmm?


My crystal ball says that being a country that uses torture makes us lose the moral high ground and provides propaganda fodder for our enemies, which makes them more likely to be able to recruit suicide bombers to attack us.
 
2008-03-12 12:22:37 PM  
Theaetetus: any time your false dichotomy of an argument relies on your premise of a magic 100% accurate crystal ball, there's a good chance that it's not a valid argument.

Worth repeating
 
2008-03-12 12:23:12 PM  
clancifer: As liberal as I am on many subjects, I really have no problem with us water boarding these jackasses. Seems to have worked on a few subjects so far.

Except that it does not work. It does not provide reliable intelligence. It only shows what someone will do or say in order to prevent being forcibly drowned by interrogators. Can someone ask Scalia if he would admit evidence brought to him in a court of law if water boarding was used to collect it? At least his Canadian counterparts are exersizing a little common sense on the issue. (new window)

/Side note:
Next retard that comes here posting a note to blame the Democratic controlled Congress for this w/out reading the roll call is going to make me figure out how to ignore people. Stop being such a dumbass.
 
2008-03-12 12:24:15 PM  
Fibber McLiarson: In the old days, you would have been known as a Conservative Democrat or a Liberal Republican. But now there is no grey - only black and white.

I'd love to call myself a moderate or a centrist, but those monikers have been usurped by Republicans who don't hold the courage of their convictions. I guess I'll stick with "Registered: Independent".
 
2008-03-12 12:24:25 PM  
TheNewJesus: Freedom isn't free, and yes soemtimes the folks at home have to pay for it.

Freedom costs $1.05.
 
2008-03-12 12:24:31 PM  
Vanis: Experts in interrogation agree that the ticking time-bomb scenario is pretty much a myth. Stop using it.

And, logically, the only way it can work is if you Know that the person you will torture Knows where the bomb is. And the only way you can Know that is if you Know where the bomb is, yourself.

Logically, that is.
 
2008-03-12 12:24:31 PM  
Next up:

U.S. Government condones use of counter-suicide bombers, stating "Well, it's okay when we do it!"
 
2008-03-12 12:24:40 PM  
Sabalo: I can haz constitutional convention?

While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!


Keep in mind, it'd have to be a unanimous decision between all state governors.
 
2008-03-12 12:25:42 PM  
Another Pretentious Nickname: TheNewJesus: Freedom isn't free, and yes soemtimes the folks at home have to pay for it.

Freedom costs $1.05.


I guess false freedom costs a hell of a lot more, because I've been paying thousands of dollars for an inferior product.

//Yes, gets the reference
 
2008-03-12 12:26:31 PM  
Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Sabalo: I can haz constitutional convention?

While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!

Keep in mind, it'd have to be a unanimous decision between all state governors.


My governor is Gov. Cain. No thanks!
 
2008-03-12 12:26:44 PM  
tylerdurden217: redufo: Here's another guy who also has many common traits as you republicans.

I'm not a Republican.


Thanks for clearly that up! I won't admit I was a republican either. Rather admit to lower class of humanity if I had to like pedofile, or Moby fan.
 
2008-03-12 12:27:18 PM  
Another Pretentious Nickname: TheNewJesus: Freedom isn't free, and yes soemtimes the folks at home have to pay for it.

Freedom costs $1.05.


McDonalds Cheeseburger?
 
2008-03-12 12:27:57 PM  

Once the dogma arrives, the participants of a discussion no longer qualify to engage in meaningful dialog.

That's the problem with venues such as Fark. I like it...but man, it's a graffiti-wall for extremists and rewards persistence over reason, day after day.

 
2008-03-12 12:28:05 PM  
Theaetetus: Yes. Assume that we don't have an unlimited time to find the child - that we're talking the usual Jack Bauer 24-hour scenario, right?

So, you start your torture session, and the guy breaks and says that your child is on Mount Rushmore, stuffed up Washington's nose. It's 8 hours away, however, so do you stop and go look there, or send someone and keep torturing, just in case? Of course, you keep going.
So now you may have the correct information, but you can't verify it for 8 hours.

Another five minutes of torture, and he breaks again and says, "oh, god, please stop! Your kid is in my windowless van with "free candy" painted on the side and it's parked in Death Valley!" Well, that's another 8 hours away. Send another person to check, and keep torturing.

After another five minutes, he says, "please stop! The truth is that he's tied to that tree you can drive through in the Redwood forest in Northern California! This time it's the truth!" But that's also 8 hours away.

At some point, you either run out of people to send, in which case, do you start pulling them back to check new places the guy mentions, or do you ignore the later places that he now insists are the truth?

You have gained absolutely zero useful information, and have wasted a lot of time. Personally, I'd rather negotiate, find the kid, and then punish. But that's because I like effective things.


Sorry, I just found this response. This is EXACTLY what I would call "low hanging fruit". This is the worst reply I've ever read. I wouldn't respond to this normally, but since you're being so crabby about it:

Your point is that waterboarding isn't effective. I won't argue that. I have never worked MI so I can't confirm or deny this at all. You may very well be right that it is not effective.

If it is effective, there are cases where I would say go ahead and use it. If I got the run around then he probably wasn't going to tell me anyway. Right?

I tried giving him cigarretes and coffee, that didn't work. I tried all of the psychological stuff. Tried being his friend, tried WHATEVER the 19 methods are in the field manual and STILL haven't found my child. Okay. I waterboard and that doesn't work either, well I guess he just doesn't know or won't ever tell me.

My original point that got everyone so worked up for some reason was that THERE ARE BIGGER ISSUES HERE. With as many people as there are in prison and jail I wonder just how free we are in this country.

This is like debating late term abortion. It's statistically VERY RARE, so I would rather congress deal with bigger issues. Is 3rd trimester abortion sad? Yes. Disgusting? Yes. Would I preform one? No. But I would rather let DOCTORS decide that. Just like I would like to let MI deal with their interrogation techniques.

I'm prochoice for that reason.

You are telling me waterboarding is ineffective. Fine. I'm saying that you and I don't know as much as the people who do Intelligence. Just like you and I don't know enough about what is between a woman and her doctor (the medical expert) In both cases, I think the expert should decide if it's necessary.
 
2008-03-12 12:28:06 PM  
Anyone know where I can get one of these 100% accurate crystal balls? I promise to use it to make enough money to buy everyone drinks at all future Fark parties.
 
2008-03-12 12:29:07 PM  
Sabalo: Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Sabalo: I can haz constitutional convention?

While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!

Keep in mind, it'd have to be a unanimous decision between all state governors.

My governor is Gov. Cain. No thanks!


They sure don't make governors like they used to.
 
2008-03-12 12:29:55 PM  
tweekster: I was trying to avoid people bringing up the Spanish inquisition and other things that happened hundreds of years ago. But rather for people to give a recent example consisting of generations that are still alive and in power.

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition!


/ Not nearly obscure enough.
 
2008-03-12 12:30:11 PM  
ecx.images-amazon.com

I've never felt so free, or the colors. Excuse me, my pants are melting, BRB...

h02 w33k 5y8w 8w 2yq5 8[m 5qoi8ht qg9075
 
2008-03-12 12:30:17 PM  
thephoenix.com

"You torture someone long enough, and they'll tell you they started the Got damn Chicago fire. Now that doesn't necessarily make it so, now does it?"
 
2008-03-12 12:30:23 PM  
Theaetetus: You managed to spend the time to twice respond to my criticism of you not responding to my original response to your question. Somehow, I don't think it's 'cause you're such a good and dedicated worker or have your priorities properly in order.

Seriously, I just saw your Weeners. mea culpa
 
2008-03-12 12:31:06 PM  
Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Sabalo: I can haz constitutional convention?

While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!

Keep in mind, it'd have to be a unanimous decision between all state governors.


After 2/3 of Congress proposes, Amendments only require support from 2/3 of state legislatures to pass.

carry on...
 
2008-03-12 12:31:22 PM  
tylerdurden217: Seriously, I just saw your Weeners. mea culpa

/chuckle
 
2008-03-12 12:31:39 PM  
Dahnch: Anyone know where I can get one of these 100% accurate crystal balls? I promise to use it to make enough money to buy everyone drinks at all future Fark parties.

I knew you were going to say that.
 
2008-03-12 12:31:58 PM  
"If you beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the Chicago fire! NOW THAT DON'T NECESSARILY MAKE IT farkING SO!"

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner - it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."
 
2008-03-12 12:32:25 PM  
You people realize that waterboarding, though possibly traumatic, is nothing compared to what they would do to us right? I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Now I'm no Bush lover but I would say these are appropriate measures to be taken to ensure our freedoms are not destroyed by those freedom hating terrorists.
 
2008-03-12 12:33:27 PM  
tylerdurden217: In both cases, I think the expert should decide if it's necessary.

The vast majority of them already have, haven't you been paying attention?

And the folks making this into policy ain't experts, you realize.

And oddly enough, their opinions differ from the experts.

Given their track record of being dead wrong when they hold beliefs contrary to the vast majority of actual experts, why would you think them reliable in this case?

It defies reason.
 
2008-03-12 12:33:28 PM  
zelachang: You people realize that waterboarding, though possibly traumatic, is nothing compared to what they would do to us right? I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Now I'm no Bush lover but I would say these are appropriate measures to be taken to ensure our freedoms are not destroyed by those freedom hating terrorists.

Having our freedoms are being destroyed by our government is better?
 
2008-03-12 12:33:35 PM  
UnkleKrakker: Jeffrey.Rodriguez: Sabalo: I can haz constitutional convention?

While I understand your desire...

fark. NO.

Do you see the people in charge right now... the people that would be rewriting the Constitution?!

Keep in mind, it'd have to be a unanimous decision between all state governors.

After 2/3 of Congress proposes, Amendments only require support from 2/3 of state legislatures to pass.

carry on...


Ahem. We'd be abolishing that very government. A constitutional convention involves governors.

I think it's farked beyond repair, myself.
 
2008-03-12 12:34:21 PM  
bigmatty87:

"Openly" is the key word. The US has its secrets, but is more open about its policies and its actions than many others (China, Russia, Germany, France, UK).


Oh, I don't know. The UK seems fairly open about its policy:

"There's absolutely no question about the UK government's commitments in respect of torture, which is illegal, and our definition of what torture is. And I think it's very, very important that we always assert that our system of values is different from those who attacked the US and killed British citizens on 11 September, and that's something we'd always want to stand up for." - UK Foreign Secretary
 
2008-03-12 12:35:02 PM  
Having our freedoms are being destroyed by our government is better?

/sorry, accidental lapse into lolcatzish there
 
2008-03-12 12:35:30 PM  
Can't we all just agree that life begins at conception, poor people prefer to be that way, guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens reduce crime, a strong national defense if the best job for a government, markets must be deregulated, violent criminals must be swiftly executed, the civil-rights era (50s-60s) was the single worst and most mis-guided thing to happen to women and minorities, and a little religion in public schools isn't all that bad?
 
2008-03-12 12:35:40 PM  
Sabalo: Next up:

U.S. Government condones use of counter-suicide bombers, stating "Well, it's okay when we do it!"


We already use suicide bombers, in an identical manner, for identical reasons.

We call them "cruise missiles" and "precision ordinance".

Does anyone dispute this? Scrape up the resultant charred goo from either technique and explain the difference to me.
 
2008-03-12 12:36:00 PM  
bigmatty87: Be sanctimonious about the use of waterboarding all you want. You are entitled to your opinion. My point is: don't be so obtuse as to use in your arguments against it a claim that this makes us worse than other countries. It just makes us AS BAD.

Here's what I don't get about the "everyone else is doing it; get over it" argument: It basically excuses just about every crappy thing humans do. So, if my plan was to go out on my lunch hour, park my able-bodied ass in a handicapped space and start throwing rocks at puppies and old ladies, I could poo-poo any criticism as sanctimoniously obtuse?
 
2008-03-12 12:36:14 PM  
tylerdurden217: Your point is that waterboarding isn't effective. I won't argue that. I have never worked MI so I can't confirm or deny this at all. You may very well be right that it is not effective.

That's what the experts say. Neither of us are experts, so I'll defer to them.

If it is effective, there are cases where I would say go ahead and use it. If I got the run around then he probably wasn't going to tell me anyway. Right?

Not necessarily. Once you've tortured your prisoner, you've ruled out the possibility of the psychological stuff ever working.

I tried giving him cigarretes and coffee, that didn't work. I tried all of the psychological stuff. Tried being his friend, tried WHATEVER the 19 methods are in the field manual and STILL haven't found my child.

We're still talking about the 24 hour scenario, right? Because the methods all take much longer than 24 hours. You've presented a situation in order to frame your false dichotomy that then doesn't work. Even for your own method. In fact, the only possible way to win your hypothetical scenario is to negotiate.

Okay. I waterboard and that doesn't work either, well I guess he just doesn't know or won't ever tell me.

And now you can't negotiate.

My original point that got everyone so worked up for some reason was that THERE ARE BIGGER ISSUES HERE. With as many people as there are in prison and jail I wonder just how free we are in this country.

Some of us believe torture is a pretty big issue. If you don't, why are you making so much noise in a torture thread? Arguing by distraction?

Yeah, you're a troll. I completely stand by it.
 
2008-03-12 12:36:39 PM  
redufo: Here's another guy who also has many common traits as you republicans. Happy to hear you condone these type of actions and share the same bloodlust.

Again, I'm not a republican. Never will be.

Maybe they should like Dennis out so he can join the USMC, or the CIA? He is the exact type of sick deluded person they need to who perform the now legal task.

It's very weak to compare our MI officers and enlisted men and women to Dennis Rader. Comparing a serial killer to our military is offensive and not an intelligent debate. You know better... everyone here knows better.

Its funny how you call yourselfs Christians and go to church thinking there is heaven waiting for you holy ass and your dead parents will be there.

Not only am I not a Republican, I am also an atheist... maybe agnostic, not sure... I just have a hard time buying (impossible) into any of the things that would make me a christian. Like the virgin birth, resurrection etc. So you make assumptions of my political affiliation as well as my religious beliefs?? Come on, you can do better than that.
 
2008-03-12 12:36:40 PM  
docmatic: Having our freedoms are being destroyed by our government is better?

Do you know anyone who's been waterboarded? Have you heard anything on the news about innocent people being waterboarded? It's not like they're doing it to US citizens. I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.
 
2008-03-12 12:36:50 PM  
I just came in here to say FARK these evil pigs. This is absolutely unAmerican, and please trust me on this, there is NO reason to argue. Jeez.
 
2008-03-12 12:36:54 PM  
binnster: Erm, actually, I said "history of the planet", and I was quoting Tweekster.

Well, there you go, Tweekster. Again I ask, is the entire history of the planet but 30 years?

/Ctrl F let me down. :(
 
2008-03-12 12:37:25 PM  
zelachang: You people realize that waterboarding, though possibly traumatic, is nothing compared to what they would do to us right? I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Now I'm no Bush lover but I would say these are appropriate measures to be taken to ensure our freedoms are not destroyed by those freedom hating terrorists.

Please read socodog's post:

socodog: "If you beat this prick long enough, he'll tell you he started the Chicago fire! NOW THAT DON'T NECESSARILY MAKE IT farkING SO!"

While US media reports typically state that waterboarding involves "simulated drowning", Mr Nance explained that "since the lungs are actually filling with water", there is nothing simulated about it. "Waterboarding," he said, "is slow-motion suffocation with enough time to contemplate the inevitability of blackout and expiration. When done right, it is controlled death."

Mr Nance said US troops were trained to withstand waterboarding, watched by a doctor, a psychologist, an interrogator and a backup team. "When performed with even moderate intensity over an extended time on an unsuspecting prisoner - it is torture, without doubt," he added. "Most people cannot stand to watch a high-intensity, kinetic interrogation. One has to overcome basic human decency to endure watching or causing the effects. The brutality would force you into a personal moral dilemma between humanity and hatred. It would leave you to question the meaning of what it is to be an American."


I have heard similar accounts of waterboarding. I really think we should be above acting that way. It is a big deal.
 
2008-03-12 12:37:41 PM  
zelachang: You people realize that waterboarding, though possibly traumatic, is nothing compared to what they would do to us right? I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Now I'm no Bush lover but I would say these are appropriate measures to be taken to ensure our freedoms are not destroyed by those freedom hating terrorists.

You are right, I can personally guarentee your freedom for the next 10 years. All we have to do is kill your first born.

You are cool with that right? I mean, it shouldn't be up for discussion, it's for freedom!
 
2008-03-12 12:37:57 PM  
I'd waterboard a kidnapper for information.
 
2008-03-12 12:39:07 PM  
zelachang: You people realize that waterboarding, though possibly traumatic, is nothing compared to what they would do to us right? I just don't understand why this is such a huge issue. Now I'm no Bush lover but I would say these are appropriate measures to be taken to ensure our freedoms are not destroyed by those freedom hating terrorists.

Two wrongs don't make a right.
&
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

/Moms and Jesus agree
/Sarcasm?
 
2008-03-12 12:39:20 PM  
zelachang:

Do you know anyone who's been waterboarded? Have you heard anything on the news about innocent people being waterboarded? It's not like they're doing it to US citizens. I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.


This is a troll, right?
 
2008-03-12 12:39:52 PM  
TheNewJesus: You are cool with that right? I mean, it shouldn't be up for discussion, it's for freedom!

Patriots died for your freedom. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in order to have our rights.
 
2008-03-12 12:40:55 PM  
b>tylerdurden217: This is like debating late term abortion. It's statistically VERY RARE, so I would rather congress deal with bigger issues. Is 3rd trimester abortion sad? Yes. Disgusting? Yes. Would I preform one? No. But I would rather let DOCTORS decide that. Just like I would like to let MI deal with their interrogation techniques.

I'm prochoice for that reason.


I initially thought this an intriguing argument, but ultimately it's a red herring.
 
2008-03-12 12:40:59 PM  
zelachang: docmatic: Having our freedoms are being destroyed by our government is better?

Do you know anyone who's been waterboarded? Have you heard anything on the news about innocent people being waterboarded? It's not like they're doing it to US citizens. I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.


So, you would be opposed to waterboarding (for interrogation) a US citizen who was suspected of being involved in some kind of imminent terrorist plot. On what grounds?
 
2008-03-12 12:43:02 PM  
EdNortonsTwin: I'd waterboard a kidnapper for information.

It was my mom, she said she killed them, cut them up into pieces in the woods then took the pieces, all the clothes she wore and the knife and broke into a mortuary and cremated the remains and dumped the ashes into the ocean. She said if I told she'd do the same to my sister. Please stop her!

/oops! they were at the neighbors the whole time, didn't you see the note!
 
2008-03-12 12:43:20 PM  
zelachang: docmatic: Having our freedoms are being destroyed by our government is better?

Do you know anyone who's been waterboarded? Have you heard anything on the news about innocent people being waterboarded? It's not like they're doing it to US citizens. I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.


As a non-American citizen this sends a chill up my spine.

I am apparently worth less than you are as a human being.
 
2008-03-12 12:43:38 PM  
zelachang: Do you know anyone who's been waterboarded? Have you heard anything on the news about innocent people being waterboarded? It's not like they're doing it to US citizens. I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.

(1) Great... except they are doing it to innocent Canadian citizens, like Maher Arar.
(2) It's the whole slippery slope argument. Once your government decides that torture is acceptable in some cases, it's that much easier to broaden its definition of who become "some cases".
(3) As I said earlier, if the American government wants to promote democracy as a better way, then shouldn't they be trying to hold the moral high ground?
 
2008-03-12 12:43:41 PM  
someonelse: So, you would be opposed to waterboarding (for interrogation) a US citizen who was suspected of being involved in some kind of imminent terrorist plot. On what grounds?

I feel that someone who has lived in America long enough to get a real citizenhip would realize that blowing stuff up and dying isn't really what he/she desires. It is those who don't understand this country that want to harm it.
 
2008-03-12 12:43:46 PM  
Its funny how the same 'conservatives' who don't trust the Federal Government with any responsiblity - after all, the Federal Government is a corrupt wasteful beuracacy - have no problem with giving the ultimate power of detention and torture to that Federal Government.
 
2008-03-12 12:44:07 PM  
If they had a waterboarding carnival game/stall, I would give it try.

Maybe after lasting 30 seconds you get a teddy bear or something. :D
 
2008-03-12 12:44:18 PM  
Giblet: We already use suicide bombers, in an identical manner, for identical reasons.

We call them "cruise missiles" and "precision ordinance".

Does anyone dispute this?


Yes, the ratifying members of the Geneva Conventions. Oh, and simple logic.
 
2008-03-12 12:44:26 PM  
move beyond water boarding into physical torture. fark them if they are the wrong person. i back the united states government 100% on any method of information extraction.
 
2008-03-12 12:44:27 PM  
JewZeppy: Just because I twist your arm and make you call me Uncle, doesn't make me your Uncle.

QFT for what is not likely the first time.
 
2008-03-12 12:44:29 PM  
I see that lilbjorn has already provided the list of "nay"-sayers, but I'll post a good source for the data here:

From OpenCongress.org: http://www.opencongress.org/roll_call/show/2458
 
2008-03-12 12:45:21 PM  
zelachang: someonelse: So, you would be opposed to waterboarding (for interrogation) a US citizen who was suspected of being involved in some kind of imminent terrorist plot. On what grounds?

I feel that someone who has lived in America long enough to get a real citizenhip would realize that blowing stuff up and dying isn't really what he/she desires. It is those who don't understand this country that want to harm it.


Troll, or profoundly learning disabled? I can't tell.
 
2008-03-12 12:46:19 PM  
Theaetetus: Not necessarily. Once you've tortured your prisoner, you've ruled out the possibility of the psychological stuff ever working.

Sources on this?

Some of us believe torture is a pretty big issue. If you don't, why are you making so much noise in a torture thread? Arguing by distraction?

I think torture is a pretty big issue too. If we were pulling off their fingernails, I would draw the line. I just don't believe that pretending to drown someone for 19 seconds is where I would draw the line.

Yeah, you're a troll. I completely stand by it.
This is a cop out on your part. I have only 2 options here. I can deny being a troll and continue to argue while you continue to call me a troll. Or I leave and then you "ran me off" because I was just a "troll" anyway.

I HAVE A DIFFERENT opinion from you. I also see your points. And you never responded to my comparison to my view on abortion. I know you aren't a troll though. just because you didn't respond to that doesn't mean you are a troll.

I will say that you might be right about the fact that waterboarding is not effective. I just believe that it's effectiveness should be decided by the Military. If it's not effective, why are they doing it? If they are doing it just for entertainment, then THAT is sick and reprehensible and there are ALREADY rules in the military that prohibit that conduct. I'm sure someone could spend the rest of their life in Leavenworth for that type of behavior. If they require some oversight to verify why this is being used, then so be it.

My point has ALWAYS been that there are better ways to deal with this than our Congress micromanaging the Military's specific tactics.

Maybe it does need to be addressed and IF SO, there are already laws that exist to deal with it.
 
2008-03-12 12:46:20 PM  
zelachang: Patriots died for your freedom. Sometimes you have to make sacrifices in order to have our rights.

Yup, the more I read your posts, the more I think I needs me a dose of trollicillin.
 
2008-03-12 12:47:07 PM  
infantry: move beyond water boarding into physical torture. fark them if they are the wrong person. i back the united states government 100% on any method of information extraction.

So would it be wrong if they did it then?
 
2008-03-12 12:47:41 PM  
EdNortonsTwin: I'd waterboard a kidnapper for information.

I would understand that.

As a jurist at your trial, I'd still put you in prison for it but I'd certainly understand your motivation.

However, if you started waterboarding random people that you captured, hoping to luck-in to some useful information, well...we'd have to stop you by whatever means afforded themselves, including deadly force.
 
2008-03-12 12:47:52 PM  
TechieZero: If they had a waterboarding carnival game/stall, I would give it try.

Maybe after lasting 30 seconds you get a teddy bear or something. :D


Think of the t-shirt potential... :D
 
2008-03-12 12:48:20 PM  
Headso: xkillyourfacex: Is "empire" supposed to be a bad-word?

that's what I'm saying, I don't get why it gets so called "conservatives" all flinchy..


It irritates me as a liberal leaning independent type. Not from a sense of patriotism but from a semantic standpoint. The implication is that we own several other nations. When in reality we don't. You can name allies and say we own them, in reality vote independently of us in the UN, and disagree with us on many things we have done/do. That wouldn't happen in an "empire."

Many countries kiss our ass to get freebies but the second they are cut off they're back stabbing us. It's not quite the same as having some kind of real control over them.

So in summary, being rich != being an empire. Being successful != being an empire. Meddling in other country's affairs, still !- empire. Attacking countries is still not the definition of empire. Otherwise North Vietnam is an empire.

From Wiktionary:

1. A political unit having an extensive territory or comprising a number of territories or nations and ruled by a single supreme authority.
2. A group of states or other territories that owe allegiance to a foreign power.
3. A state ruled by an emperor.
4. Any vast area under the power of one person; most commonly used in business, e.g. "the McDonalds empire".

You might try to call me on #2, and I will raise you the fact that our allies do *not* consistently agree with us and do not owe us anything other than a mutual protection agreement.

Our military bases in other countries are at there at the concurrence of the local population. And typically they would rather have the revenue than make a political stink about it and send us packing. But it has happened (see the Philippines), and since we left at their request, it is not evidence of being an empire.
 
2008-03-12 12:49:10 PM  
Gecko Gingrich
Bartman66: I love all the cartoons showing ONLY Bush being happy about torture .... Um ...... Wasn't this about the NEW democrat controlled CONGRESS? Weren't they going to change everything?

Civics. Take a class one day.

Great!! Another idoit that comes in at the end of a discussion and opens their mouth to prove their ignorance.
// But hey nice attempt at looking .....smart? Out of curiousity the "class" you talk about attending.. did you show up the last day and fail that too??
 
2008-03-12 12:49:14 PM  
We should practice our torture on kittens and puppies. That way, we know all the good stuff when applying techniques to hardened 15-year-old Al Queda operatives.
 
2008-03-12 12:49:17 PM  
someonelse: Troll, or profoundly learning disabled? I can't tell.

It isn't as fun as it seemed. I kinda feel dirty now.
 
2008-03-12 12:49:50 PM  
We are not a democracy. We are a representative republic. I don't know why everyone thinks we are a democracy. If we were a democracy, and 50.00000000000001 percent of people voted that waterboarding was illegal, it would be so. There would be no veto, hell, there's be no congress.

We have a system... a system in which our elected asshats vote for things, and the president can disagree. If you don't like it, there is an election this fall. Get rid of the asshats, as they have far more power than the president.
 
2008-03-12 12:50:19 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

What you probably don't realize is that by international law, we can legally KILL captured terrorists any time we want to. No trial, no nothing. If we are extra nice, we might ask their name first before we kill them, but it's not required.

If we wanted to, we could cut their heads off with survival knives just like they do. We could hang them, shoot them, electrocute them, burn them alive, feed them agonizing poison, or drown or strangle them. But hey, we don't do that, because we are extra nice.

But if you are planning to kill thousands of innocent civilians, like the few guys we waterboarded, who are still alive, mind you, then you should not be surprised if we are a little less nice.

Mind you, we are still the good guys. But we are not cool at all to the idea of you killing thousands of our civilians.

So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.


THIS!
 
2008-03-12 12:50:37 PM  
Come on, the President is just acknowledging his Jack Bauer side. We all like watching Kiefer kill bad guys, why not pretend drown them?

I am not a troll, just pointing out that Democrats, myself included, hate the idea of torture, while not so secretly watch shows like 24, rooting for the vigilante.
 
2008-03-12 12:51:29 PM  
Crunch61: I initially thought this an intriguing argument, but ultimately it's a red herring.

Well I certainly never presented it to be misleading. Doctors are experts and I trust that they wouldn't perform an abortion unless it was a last resort or something like that. The analogy was because I think doctors are the experts here. I AM NOT. Congress is NOT, the President IS NOT. (maybe Ron Paul would have been, but I digress)

It's just a little far fetched for me to believe that MI officers are performing waterboarding gratuitously. If they did it and it was usually completely ineffective and sent our military on wild goose chases (and I know this has happened before) then they would use their judgment not to use it.

I stand by that analogy.
 
2008-03-12 12:52:48 PM  
zelachang: I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.

I don't believe our government has the ability to differentiate between its ass and a hole in the ground.

We have plants that are illegal because a bureaucrat did a good job at securing funding for his agency. You go to jail for lying under oath and pay heavy penalties for DUI, unless you're a member of congress or the executive branch. "We the People" are under the law while the government is above the law. That is a reversal of the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution. Since our government doesn't follow the intent nor the letter of either, and the members of both political parties have no respect for the oath they took upon entering office, I cannot honestly say they can be trusted.

"Waterboarding" is by far one of the least important issues of the day.
 
2008-03-12 12:52:49 PM  
vernonFL: Its funny how the same 'conservatives' who don't trust the Federal Government with any responsiblity - after all, the Federal Government is a corrupt wasteful beuracacy - have no problem with giving the ultimate power of detention and torture to that Federal Government.

Well, for some under this category, its one of the *few* things the government should be doing, which is provide for the common defense.
 
2008-03-12 12:53:46 PM  
whammer: So, all you liberals are cool with cutting the heads off of helpless people with survival knives?

What you probably don't realize is that by international law, we can legally KILL captured terrorists any time we want to. No trial, no nothing. If we are extra nice, we might ask their name first before we kill them, but it's not required.

If we wanted to, we could cut their heads off with survival knives just like they do. We could hang them, shoot them, electrocute them, burn them alive, feed them agonizing poison, or drown or strangle them. But hey, we don't do that, because we are extra nice.

But if you are planning to kill thousands of innocent civilians, like the few guys we waterboarded, who are still alive, mind you, then you should not be surprised if we are a little less nice.

Mind you, we are still the good guys. But we are not cool at all to the idea of you killing thousands of our civilians.

So before you spout off again in future, ask yourself a simple question: is it better for a terrorist to have 15 minutes of discomfort, or to permit them to keep a secret that will kill thousands of people just like you? Dead, as in forever.

An hour later, that terrorist will be back in his cell, eating three square meals a day, paid for by us, and praying to his god of death.

But thousands of the human beings he would happily kill will be alive as well.

This is no choice, dudes and dudettes. Grow up. Sorry if it makes your little pastel and cotton candy world as little less pleasantly numb, but it is a thing called reality.


Ah yes... the famous "Ticking Time Bomb" scenario that never happens. Sure, it may happen some time in the world of tomorrow... but do we really want to emulate the Imperial Japanese to get info that would just as likely be wrong as right?
 
2008-03-12 12:55:51 PM  
If you think torture is going to keep you safe you are a fool! You are also a COWARD!!!
 
2008-03-12 12:56:18 PM  
We are so close to the rapture! YES!
 
2008-03-12 12:56:19 PM  
Kreigenstein: Yes, the ratifying members of the Geneva Conventions. Oh, and simple logic

The Geneva convention authorized unilateral invasion of a sovereign nation, because we need oil?

WTF are you smoking? Share it, biatch.

We created every terrorist in Iraq. There weren't any terrorists there until we started bombing the crap out of their wives, children, brothers, sisters, etc. I guess, by your "logic", they were supposed to enjoy it.

What? Our whimsical uniforms make the difference between a suicide bomber and an avenging savior? Is that your farked-up argument???
 
2008-03-12 12:56:55 PM  
Deucednuisance: The vast majority of them already have, haven't you been paying attention?

And the folks making this into policy ain't experts, you realize.

And oddly enough, their opinions differ from the experts.

Given their track record of being dead wrong when they hold beliefs contrary to the vast majority of actual experts, why would you think them reliable in this case?

It defies reason.


I want to respond to this, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Your exclusive usage of pronouns has me scratching my head.

In order:
-them
-the folks making this
-their track record
-them reliable
 
2008-03-12 12:57:07 PM  
Vanis:

I am apparently worth less than you are as a human being.


You have not provided enough information to make a final ruling on this.

Are you brown?

/or *GASP* French?
 
2008-03-12 12:57:47 PM  
FREEDOM IS ON THE MARCH!
 
2008-03-12 12:57:47 PM  
zelachang: I believe our government has the ability to differentiate between terrorists and we the american people.

Oops.
 
2008-03-12 12:57:49 PM  
You're farking kidding me.
 
2008-03-12 12:57:51 PM  
itsmequinn: We are so close to the rapture! YES!

I sure hope so. Pack the christians off to eternal harp camp and the average IQ of the planet will rise 50 points.
 
2008-03-12 12:59:23 PM  
Interesting I'm the only one here who seems to see a middle ground between the two extremes.

You wanna go ahead here and beat this guy with a phone book? Fine. Sign this document taking full responsibility for your actions, get a doctor to monitor your subject, and be prepared to defend yourself in open court if you're not right. And for your sake, I hope you were sure about this. That document amounts to a confession in criminal trials. When this comes before a judge you WILL be guilty, you signed a paper acknowledging that. The only question will be what sanctions your fellow Americans choose to impose on you, based on the evidence you present to them.

I know a position like that presents a lot of thorns as far as international treaties and civil law and such, but I'm willing to change the legal framework of this country a little bit to accomodate for a new kind of war.

I will not, however, stand for my countrymen acting this way in my defense, with zero oversight and no accountability or just punishment for their actions.

You chose a profession where you might be called upon to sacrifice your life for mine. I can't thank you enough for that. But I can't give you a pass on something like this either.
 
2008-03-12 12:59:24 PM  
JewZeppy: Approves.

img144.imageshack.us

These Americans were Court Martialed and convicted for committing a war crime.
 
2008-03-12 01:01:05 PM  
T.M.S.

Either you are being sort of funny or really funny.

I thought it was really funny, but apparently some people missed that episode of Fark.
 
2008-03-12 01:02:34 PM  
Jeffrey.Rodriguez: tylerdurden217: Seriously, I just saw your Weeners. mea culpa

that's what I get for not previewing my post... very sorry. I meant to say "Just saw your post" I also bold the whole thing.

I need another cup of coffee. Hopefully no one was offended by the Weeners thing.
 
2008-03-12 01:04:04 PM  
Theaetetus

Is our debate over? I responded in 10 minutes...
 
2008-03-12 01:05:27 PM  
Bartman66: Great!! Another idoit that comes in at the end of a discussion and opens their mouth to prove their ignorance.

I've been posting here for the last two hours, a mere twenty minutes after the thread started.

// But hey nice attempt at looking .....smart? Out of curiousity the "class" you talk about attending.. did you show up the last day and fail that too??

It takes a 2/3 majority to override a presidential veto. The Dems didn't have that, ergo they couldn't override the veto. In fact, all but a very few Dems voted to override the veto, thus they did what they could to stop it. It was in fact, the Repubs that were responsible for not changing anything by refusing to cross party lines.

But no, you're right, the Dems didn't change anything.
 
2008-03-12 01:05:54 PM  
Giblet: EdNortonsTwin: I'd waterboard a kidnapper for information.

I would understand that.

As a jurist at your trial, I'd still put you in prison for it but I'd certainly understand your motivation.

However, if you started waterboarding random people that you captured, hoping to luck-in to some useful information, well...we'd have to stop you by whatever means afforded themselves, including deadly force.


Waterboarding at random would be a sociopathic act, so I'd have to agree that 'they' would need to be stopped. However, if your deadly force was to shoot and kill someone who was pouring water on someone elses face you'd be probably the one in prison. What your motivation for the homicide would be a tough point of contention.

I'd press for a judge trial, not a jury. With this veto, I'd bet I'd win, or get a slap on the wrist.
 
2008-03-12 01:07:04 PM  
It's only a matter of time before this shiat comes back to us. I can see a day soon when US cops will start using "Advanced Interrogation Techniques" on us.
 
2008-03-12 01:07:05 PM  
Let's torture everybody, starting from "Extremely Brown" all the way up to "Lightly Tan." Turbans add +5 brown points. Qurans: +10 brown points. Unless they're African. But maybe. You never know. Ah, better safe than sorry. Torture for all!

/the same people advocating torture want to ban abortions
//Uh oh, grandma, you've been randomly selected for torture! This is for America's safety.
 
2008-03-12 01:08:34 PM  
Bartman66: Gecko Gingrich
Bartman66: I love all the cartoons showing ONLY Bush being happy about torture .... Um ...... Wasn't this about the NEW democrat controlled CONGRESS? Weren't they going to change everything?

Civics. Take a class one day.

Great!! Another idoit that comes in at the end of a discussion and opens their mouth to prove their ignorance.
// But hey nice attempt at looking .....smart? Out of curiousity the "class" you talk about attending.. did you show up the last day and fail that too??



You funny.

I'm curious to hear your theory on how a slim majority of Democrats should have brought a slim minority of Republicans around to crossing the aisle. Particularly as the slim minority of Republicans had just lost majority power for the first time in twelve years, was accustomed to voting as a highly cohesive group, and knew the only way the slim Democratic majority would get their way on any legislation was if Republicans crossed the aisle. Factor in, for accuracy, that any Republican who would cross the aisle would be identifiable and under the Bush administration subject to political reprisal. Factor in also that Bush has exercised more vetos since the last election than he did in his entire past years in office combined.
 
2008-03-12 01:08:45 PM  
tylerdurden217: Theaetetus: Not necessarily. Once you've tortured your prisoner, you've ruled out the possibility of the psychological stuff ever working.

Sources on this?


Sure. It was posted upthread.


I think torture is a pretty big issue too. If we were pulling off their fingernails, I would draw the line. I just don't believe that pretending to drown someone for 19 seconds is where I would draw the line.


So, you don't believe waterboarding is torture, is that it? Because the CIA, the FBI, the Navy, the USMJ, the Geneva Convention, and our own courts, with their history of prosecuting and executing war criminals for waterboarding, would beg to differ.
But maybe you know better? How many times have you been waterboarded or waterboarded someone? Because you must have some factual basis to draw your conclusion on, some basis that is stronger than our laws, our treaties, our experts, and our judicial history.

I HAVE A DIFFERENT opinion from you. I also see your points. And you never responded to my comparison to my view on abortion. I know you aren't a troll though. just because you didn't respond to that doesn't mean you are a troll.

You're blatantly threadjacking. See the headline? Waterboarding. See what you're trying to subvert the discussion to? Abortion. See how they're related? Me neither.
That red herring is what makes you a troll.
 
2008-03-12 01:08:45 PM  
Giblet: We created every terrorist in Iraq.

That's not entirely true, and I suspect you now that.
 
2008-03-12 01:09:20 PM  
The Southern Dandy: It's only a matter of time before this shiat comes back to us. I can see a day soon when US cops will start using "Advanced Interrogation Techniques" on us.

Very true. Government power only gets bigger and more intrusive.
But as long as it only happens to criminals...
 
2008-03-12 01:09:21 PM  
errr...know that
 
2008-03-12 01:09:58 PM  
My father was a veteran. His father was a bronze star winner in WWII. His father was a veteran, and probably his father before that.

SO THANKS FOR DISHONORING THEM ALL, YOU TORTURE-LOVING COCKSUCKERS.

Americans owe it to past generations to be better than this.
 
2008-03-12 01:10:03 PM  
Too bad we can't try waterboarding every congresscritter that didn't vote to override. See if that changes their mind.

/supposedly it's like surfing
 
2008-03-12 01:13:03 PM  
Vanis: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

/Moms and Jesus agree


Interestingly enough, so does the Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogations (you can d/l a pdf of the manual at that link).

A few pertinent excerpts from the manual:

"Use of torture is not only illegal but also it is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the HUMINT collector wants to hear. Use of torture can also have many possible negative consequences at national and international levels."

...

"If used in conjunction with intelligence interrogations, prohibited actions include, but are not limited to-
• Forcing the detainee to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner.
• Placing hoods or sacks over the head of a detainee; using duct tape over the eyes.
• Applying beatings, electric shock, burns, or other forms of physical pain.
• "Waterboarding."
• Using military working dogs.
• Inducing hypothermia or heat injury.
• Conducting mock executions.
• Depriving the detainee of necessary food, water, or medical care."


...

"In attempting to determine if a contemplated approach or technique should be considered prohibited, and therefore should not be included in an interrogation plan, consider these two tests before submitting the plan for approval:
If the proposed approach technique were used by the enemy against one of your fellow soldiers, would you believe the soldier had been abused? [emphasis mine]
• Could your conduct in carrying out the proposed technique violate a law or regulation? Keep in mind that even if you personally would not consider your actions to constitute abuse, the law may be more restrictive."


The President & his supporters are keen to tell us our precious freedoms are at risk if we don't allow interrogators this full range of Geneva-Convention-violating techniques - despite the fact we'd go all 'glass parking lot' on someone's arse if they did the same things to our service men/women. If people in this thread can't see the glaring hypocrisy of this POV, there's nothing more I can say.
 
2008-03-12 01:14:21 PM  
Eddie Adams from Torrance: Vanis:

I am apparently worth less than you are as a human being.

You have not provided enough information to make a final ruling on this.

Are you brown?

/or *GASP* French?


If I was they would cancel each other out. ;)

Seriously though, you have an administration that says "You are either with us or with the Terrorists." and a segment of your population that identifies the 'them' in their us/them understanding of the world as anyone who isn't a US citizen.

Can you understand how that makes other people in the world a little uncomfortable?

I'm just saying your U.S. foreign policy rhetoric is...unsettling.

/Queue the 'Who cares!' comments...
 
2008-03-12 01:15:22 PM  
You know Theaetetus, I was fairly impressed with your logic and use of fact. But when you started brow-beating tylerdurden217 because he/she was at work or unable to respond you turned into a brutish child.

I mean...talk about the proper use of the word dichotomy; intelligent, well-versed, imbecile?

I am at work too, on lunch break, can't research your supposition on the Geneva Convention rules...I guess that makes me a poo-poo head.
 
2008-03-12 01:16:53 PM  
You gotta KNOW we've been doing it all along! All this does is let us keep 'em alive when we're done with 'em.

It's a good thing from a practical standpoint.
 
2008-03-12 01:17:36 PM  
TehAssMan: You know Theaetetus, I was fairly impressed with your logic and use of fact. But when you started brow-beating tylerdurden217 because he/she was at work or unable to respond you turned into a brutish child.

Read what I posted after he claimed that, where I pointed out that his claim of "at work or unable to respond" still enabled him to respond to me to twice to state why he couldn't respond.

TehAssMan: I am at work too, on lunch break, can't research your supposition on the Geneva Convention rules...I guess that makes me a poo-poo head.

See, when intellectually honest people debate something, it's considered perfectly acceptable to say "I don't have time to research that right now".
So, what's your point?
 
2008-03-12 01:22:21 PM  
tweekster: Memes Ate My Balls: Anyone else remember being told that we had to kill Saddam because he uses torture?

Yes because making prisoners drink gasoline then shooting them is exactly the same as mock drowning them...

not to defend waterboarding, but seriously get a grip on reality


It's amazing who finds 'shades of gray' on issues... and when...
 
2008-03-12 01:24:39 PM  
StandsWithAFist: Vanis: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

/Moms and Jesus agree

Interestingly enough, so does the Army Field Manual on Intelligence Interrogations (you can d/l a pdf of the manual at that link).

A few pertinent excerpts from the manual:

"Use of torture is not only illegal but also it is a poor technique that yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say what he thinks the HUMINT collector wants to hear. Use of torture can also have many possible negative consequences at national and international levels."

...

"If used in conjunction with intelligence interrogations, prohibited actions include, but are not limited to-
• Forcing the detainee to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner.
• Placing hoods or sacks over the head of a detainee; using duct tape over the eyes.
• Applying beatings, electric shock, burns, or other forms of physical pain.
• "Waterboarding."
• Using military working dogs.
• Inducing hypothermia or heat injury.
• Conducting mock executions.
• Depriving the detainee of necessary food, water, or medical care."

...

"In attempting to determine if a contemplated approach or technique should be considered prohibited, and therefore should not be included in an interrogation plan, consider these two tests before submitting the plan for approval:
• If the proposed approach technique were used by the enemy against one of your fellow soldiers, would you believe the soldier had been abused? [emphasis mine]
• Could your conduct in carrying out the proposed technique violate a law or regulation? Keep in mind that even if you personally would not consider your actions to constitute abuse, the law may be more restrictive."

The President & his supporters are keen to tell us our precious freedoms are at risk if we don't allow interrogators this full range of Geneva-Convention-violating techniques - despite the fact we'd go all 'glass parking lot' on someone's arse if they did the same things to our service men/women. If people in this thread can't see the glaring hypocrisy of this POV, there's nothing more I can say.


Quite interesting. Thanks for the link. Oh, and you comments as well. I quite agree with you final statement.

If someone had the honesty to say that they supported waterboarding but would thereby respect, if you'll allow that word here, the enemies use of same said procedure I would be much more willing to have a debate with them on the issue.
 
2008-03-12 01:26:01 PM  
Theaetetus: So, you don't believe waterboarding is torture, is that it? Because the CIA, the FBI, the Navy, the USMJ, the Geneva Convention, and our own courts, with their history of prosecuting and executing war criminals for waterboarding, would beg to differ.
But maybe you know better? How many times have you been waterboarded or waterboarded someone? Because you must have some factual basis to draw your conclusion on, some basis that is stronger than our laws, our treaties, our experts, and our judicial history.


Fine. If it's already torture and everyone apparently knows that it's completely ineffective then they should stop doing it.

You're blatantly threadjacking. See the headline? Waterboarding. See what you're trying to subvert the discussion to? Abortion. See how they're related? Me neither.
That red herring is what makes you a troll.


I didn't try to change the subject. I used an analogy in which I am stating that doctors are capable of making a decision about the ethics involved. Military officers are also capable of using their judgment about its effectiveness.

Seriously it's not a threadjack... I too am very annoyed when that happens. Our opinions are probably not as different as you think. It's marginal stuff that doesn't require name calling or getting hostile. I know the point of the thread... I read the article and I have my own views on waterboarding which is that Congress deciding this stuff is almost as bad as us having an opinion. Neither one REALLY knows as much as the officers who call the ball on this.

I live about an hour from Ft Hood. I know A LOT of people who have been to Iraq and Afghanistan. A friend of mine is was a scout for one tour over in Iraq. They used to capture people and detain them and handcuff them in such a way that they couldn't sit or lay down in their cell. They were forced to stand with their hands cuffed between their legs. Once the media frenzy about torture started, civilians started telling the Army they couldn't do this any more. They had to let people go. OR when they detained people for questioning, their hands were tied (pun intended) on how they could question them. This effective method which used to get them information about where the bomb making places were was no longer allowed and therefor some of the IEDs had escalated.

I know waterboarding is different, but it's an interrogation method that chickenhawks at home are saying DOESN'T WORK. So the chickenhawks want military to stop.
 
2008-03-12 01:26:01 PM  
Don't you people understand what's going on here? If you want to control a population, and eventually instatute a one world goverment, you have to make people WANT it not force it on them.

How do you do that? You make things so goddamned bad and misserable that they BEG for you to save them and control them. Then your new goverment and it's "safety and security" look like the messiah.

First comes chaos then comes order.

/one step at a time
 
2008-03-12 01:26:48 PM  
Gecko Gingrich: Giblet: We created every terrorist in Iraq.

That's not entirely true, and I suspect you now that.


It's effectively true. The number of immigrant subversives are insignificant...and they wouldn't be there if Saddam were still running the show.
 
2008-03-12 01:27:03 PM  
this might be the only thing that this administration has done that I can finally say I agree with.
 
2008-03-12 01:27:09 PM  
To my detractors

Thought provoking comments, but you sound like a stoner using the "at least it wasn't heroin" defence.
 
2008-03-12 01:28:18 PM  
Giblet: and they wouldn't be there if Saddam were still running the show.

Torturing people, lol
 
2008-03-12 01:28:43 PM  
Giblet: Kreigenstein: Yes, the ratifying members of the Geneva Conventions. Oh, and simple logic

The Geneva convention authorized unilateral invasion of a sovereign nation, because we need oil?


Wow.

You claimed that suicide bombers and precision ordinance were one in the same and that by extension we are terrorists. I answered it and you go all invasion and avenging savior.

Pay attention and focus.

"Area bombardments and other indiscriminate attacks are forbidden. If it becomes apparent that an objective is not a military one, or if an attack is expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects then the attack must be canceled or suspended. (Protocol I, Art. 57, Sec. 2b)"

Precision ordinance is not area bombardment.

You may continue with your lunatic rantings.
 
2008-03-12 01:29:30 PM  
Infinite Zero: Don't you people understand what's going on here? If you want to control a population, and eventually instatute a one world goverment, you have to make people WANT it not force it on them.

How do you do that? You make things so goddamned bad and misserable that they BEG for you to save them and control them. Then your new goverment and it's "safety and security" look like the messiah.

First comes chaos then comes order.

/one step at a time


Look up Leo-Strauss the 'father' of the neo-conservative movement. I think you'll find his political philosophies of relevance to your post.
 
2008-03-12 01:30:51 PM  
EdNortonsTwin: Waterboarding at random would be a sociopathic act, so I'd have to agree that 'they' would need to be stopped.

Do you think US torture has been "precision guided"? We torture random people.

Why did we torture that Canadian shopkeeper? Molson's isn't THAT bad. (It's pretty bad)
 
2008-03-12 01:31:27 PM  
Theaetetus: Read what I posted after he claimed that, where I pointed out that his claim of "at work or unable to respond" still enabled him to respond to me to twice to state why he couldn't respond.

What I was doing is using firefox find to look recursively through the thread, as soon as I got to something I needed to respond to, I did. Unfortunately the thing you were so mad about me not responding to was higher up... I didn't get there yet.

I'm trying... and I'm not trolling. If you're ever in Austin, I'll buy you a beer and we can discuss this. Hopefully you would see that I really do have opinions that I care about.

If all I wanted to do was get people fired up in a thread and then jump out, yes... that would be threadjacking/trolling. I have more of a life than that... not much... but more than a troll.