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(WINK News)   Worshippers praise youth pastor for confessing to murder   (winknews.com ) divider line
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12543 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Feb 2008 at 1:46 PM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-02-18 04:19:49 PM  
Fellows: PersecutedChristian: First of all, Catholics aren't Christians. Second, The Crusades were a response against Islamist aggression. I'm sure you'd much rather be a little dhimmi in some Arab country today instead of living in a free country founded on Christian principles.

Obvious troll post shows your hand. Who's the TFer having fun behind this alt?


Yep, the Islamist agression really clinched it.
 
2008-02-18 04:20:36 PM  
Dance: Second, from the article - as far as the congregation is concerned (and therefore Calvin by extension) all he had to do for his religion was confess to God. That's it, game over. His choice to confess has nothing to do with his concern for salvation/Heaven.


admitting to God is one thing, admitting to everyone else requires a whole other level of commitment. People don't hear someone praying silently to God after all.
 
2008-02-18 04:24:26 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: in fact, rather curiously for a Protestant American church

I'm not going to get in a massive argument over this point. Just so's you know, most Christians have historically rejected pre-millenialism.

Dr. Mojo PhD: No, Holy Roller activities are speaking in tongues and rolling around on the floor -- the latter quite literally the origin of the term "holy roller" and are associated most specifically with Pentecostalism, which is definitely not non-denominational.

No, this is almost certainly referring to the practice of being taken by the Holy Spirit. This, too, has been traditionally rejected by most Christians.

My point is, signs did not point to them being mainstream, and more likely to be fundamentalist or reactionary. And considering the reactionary shift that many denominations have had over the last 30 years, it wouldn't be uncalled for to presume.
 
F42
2008-02-18 04:25:32 PM  
Inman went to authorities on Feb. 5 and admitted that he stabbed Iqbal Ahmed, 64, nearly 14 years ago in suburban Pasadena. According to police, Inman said he and a 13-year-old friend planned to rob the convenience store. When Ahmed asked to see identification before giving them tobacco, Inman stabbed Ahmed in the chest with a kitchen knife, police said.

"He's a hero, really,"
said Kelley Graham


There aren't enough facepalm pictures on the net...
 
2008-02-18 04:26:31 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: doupathol: If this guy believed in the total opposite of Gods word then YES no doubt he would of killed again (satanist).

Uh, not to jump in mid-conversation here, but that's one hell of a claim to make.


why? wouldn't the total opposite of "thall shall not kill" be "thall shall kill"?
 
2008-02-18 04:27:41 PM  
jazzmajora: Since when is being responsible for your own actions "heroic"? And since when is acting in your own interest heroic? Generally, I reserve "hero" for someone who acts bravely on behalf of another. This guy is the furthest thing from a hero - at best, he's a repentant MURDERER.

No No No! If I'm able to lose 100 lbs, and get down to a healthy normal weight of 160lbs (5'8" female)

I AM A HERO!

Just as this guy is one for coming forward. These are two really difficult things to do!

HEROS!


/fatty and religion thread!
//we CAN has!
 
2008-02-18 04:27:48 PM  
slowhand123 Gotta love the knee jerk goodness from all these comments.

Let's see.....
My religion's the good one, not like this.
Only God's judgement matters etc
All religion's bad, yada, yada.
Don't be judgemental, hypocritical etc.
The Crusades, wait how'd that get in here?


how does anything get on fark?
 
2008-02-18 04:34:33 PM  
imgod2u:
I'm not being obtuse, I'm pointing out the (so I thought) obvious fact that not murdering > murdering and apologizing for it. Because this man is an example of the later, not the former. Forgive me but you keep using the word "role model", I do not think it means what you think it means.


Obama is my role model. Therefore, I will immediately now go out and try marijuana.

Calvin can be a role model for taking responsibility for his actions when he didn't have to, and for subjecting himself to the legal system for it. Role Model != Clone - thinking so is absurd.

Neither is taking $20 and murdering. Somehow, you're able to play up "oh he's so brave" and downplay "he farking stabbed a guy for asking for ID".

Maybe because the congregation isn't admiring him for murder?

No, just that he was heroic and a role model.

If a murderer throws himself in front of a bus to save a life, he's a hero for that action. Unless you think redemption (not in the biblical sense, but as a judicial concept) isn't possible.

This guy isn't on that level - he didn't give up his life for another - but he is giving up his freedom and maybe eventually his life, because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Personally I'm not sure that makes him a hero, but I can see how other people would think so - and I don't have a problem with them making that judgement. Especially since hero is a fairly meaningless term nowadays.

And he definitely could be a positive role model. Probably not for the average 12-year-old suburbanite white kid, but there is a *large* segment of the youth population that could get a positive and useful message from his story. Frankly, I find it kind of amazing that people can't see that.

However - what I think really bothers me, is the assumption in this thread that his church is forgiving him because of religion. Personally I doubt that - if he had been at the local YMCA and dedicating his life to kids there, they would be saying the exact same things, just without the religious rhetoric. This kind of attitude isn't a religious one, it's a community one, based on Calvin's actions within that community. The fact that this is a church is a coincidence.
 
F42
2008-02-18 04:35:42 PM  
doupathol: wouldn't the total opposite of "thall shall not kill" be "thall shall kill"?

You still have the "thall" in there, so it's just partly opposite...
 
2008-02-18 04:36:32 PM  
Religious people are so friggin' stupid it hurts.
 
2008-02-18 04:37:24 PM  
Blues_X: God is not being represented by our best and brightest.

Mr. Romero, I presume?
 
2008-02-18 04:44:08 PM  
RE "An atheist doing it just means the roles would be reversed - the church would be decrying him, and the atheists attacking him in this thread would be saying what a good guy he is now."

Uh, this atheist wouldn't. Confessing to a crime 14 years after the fact: not heroic in any rational sense of the word. Just because cancer kids who write poetry and celebrities who go into rehab have caused many people to misuse the word "hero" doesn't mean everyone has bought into that bullshiat.

Does the guy deserve any credit at all? Sure. Does he deserve the label "hero" for doing it? Not in any way, shape or form, regardless of his religious affiliation. If he's a hero for admitting to killing a guy, then I'm an even bigger hero for not killing anyone to begin with. Where's my medal? And my cookie? And my appearance on Oprah and subsequent book deal?

I'd bet a large sum of money that's where this goes next. He'll write a book about it so all the religious retards (ie, the ones calling him a hero now) can rush to their Christian bookstore and buy it and marvel all over again at his heroism.

/him and the jerkwad from last week who plans to write a book about how he could support only himself for 10 months as an able-bodied, college-educated 25-yr-old
 
2008-02-18 04:56:47 PM  
doupathol: why? wouldn't the total opposite of "thall shall not kill" be "thall shall kill"?

Not necessarily. To do everything contrary to God's teaching, Satanists would have a lot of work to do saving lives. They, not the Christians, would be the ones trying to avert the end of the world. Perhaps they would help rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem. Or attempt to spare the lives of those of Sodom. They would have alleviated Job's suffering rather than torment him, and spared his children death.

So no, the exact opposite is not necessarily "thou shalt kill".

palladiate: I'm not going to get in a massive argument over this point. Just so's you know, most Christians have historically rejected pre-millenialism.

False. Most post-Augustine and post-Reformation Christians have rejected premillennialism. Since the mid 1800s most conservative Protestants (and this doesn't mean fundamental Protestants) have re-adopted it.

And this eschatology is, like I said, nothing extremely new. Premillennialism, postmillennialism, millennialism and amillennialism are nothing extremely special regarding Revelation and are all varying interpretations of the timeframe and literalness of The Apocalypse of John. Whoopee. This is the same theological squabbling that's existed since before the Nicean creed. It's no different than Arianism and Trinitarianism or any other pedantic interpretation -- and please understand that as an agnostic that is exactly how this appears to me. This is the Hellenic Christians and Jewish Christians all over again. It's the same anal-retentive detail squabble wherein small groups have repeatedly assured the others that their views were in the majority.

The only one of those to have ever successfully actually won out was Trinitarianism over Arianism, and even then it's not like Arianism is a dead interpretation, just decidedly and conclusively a minority.

No, this is almost certainly referring to the practice of being taken by the Holy Spirit. This, too, has been traditionally rejected by most Christians.

And so it is. Like I said, Pentecostalism. It's just that it's not only Pentecostal churches that do this. Their own description says:

"Hands lifted can mean many things. It can be a physical response to the joy we feel in our God." - There's nothing very Pentecostal about that statement. You're likely to see that in a Baptist church as well.

"It may also express our total surrender to God as we worship Him." - This one is vague. It could mean being taken by the Holy Spirit. It could mean they're surrendering to God in the figurative sense (putting your hands up, bowing down before God, not much difference.)

"Whatever it may mean to the individual, the lifting of our hands is a valid expression of worship and is very Biblical." -- Not very Pentecostal as Holy Rollers don't let individuality interfere in who gets soulnapped by the Holy Ghost.

Alas, a Google Search reveals this: Elim Church - Home
Houston, Texas (Pentecostal). History, schedule, announcements, beliefs, staff profiles, youth and children's ministry pages, and links.
www.elimoasis.org/

My point is, signs did not point to them being mainstream, and more likely to be fundamentalist or reactionary. And considering the reactionary shift that many denominations have had over the last 30 years, it wouldn't be uncalled for to presume.

My point is, don't jump to conclusions. They turned out to be Pentecostal, which is definitely not non-denominational. In fact, Pentecostalism is one of the largest denominations in the United States and while 100 years ago probably wouldn't have been considered mainstream, they are definitely mainstream now.

As a self-identified Methodist you should be aware that Pentecostalism is a direct descendant of Methodism. They share Arminian soteriology and Wesleyan theology (not the denomination, of course).

It has been my interpretation that most fundamentalist belief structures within Protestant Christianity are structured around staunch Calvinism.
 
2008-02-18 04:57:39 PM  
Ugggh... What a sad state of affairs if the word "hero" can be used to describe the confession, voluntary or not, of a murderer. Surely murder is the standard example of the most extreme crime possible - one that ends all hope, values, love, and possible experiences for the victim. I feel heartbroken that the victim's family has to be exposed to this crappy article...
 
2008-02-18 05:03:01 PM  
Only a Christian could bend logic far enough to believe a murderer was a hero.

That is what happens when your cult is so twisted that you have hardly anyone to represent you as a positive role model. Normal people would be upset to have a murderer around their children, let alone, teaching them.

But it just shows you where their priorities lie.
 
2008-02-18 05:07:42 PM  
soupgoblin: Only a Christian could bend logic far enough to believe a murderer was a hero.

They are not mutually exclusive components, you know.

A murderer can be a hero, assuming that their heroic act and their murderous act are two separate things.

Hell, even murder can be heroic. Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with malice aforethought. Let's just go ahead and skip the argument ad Hitler here, and use Uncle Joe Stalin as an example. Killing Stalin would be unlawful. Planning it ahead gives you malice aforethought. And, as much as it pains me to say it, he was a human being.

So, if you extrajudicially killed Josef Stalin, it would be murder. And, depending on why you did it -- say, to save millions of Soviet lives even at great risk to your own -- it would also be pretty heroic.

Think people, think.
 
2008-02-18 05:09:57 PM  
Dance: imgod2u:
I'm not being obtuse, I'm pointing out the (so I thought) obvious fact that not murdering > murdering and apologizing for it. Because this man is an example of the later, not the former. Forgive me but you keep using the word "role model", I do not think it means what you think it means.

Obama is my role model. Therefore, I will immediately now go out and try marijuana.


Is the reason that he's your role model that he tried marijuana (I like how you think that's a bad thing btw) and gave it up?

Calvin can be a role model for taking responsibility for his actions when he didn't have to, and for subjecting himself to the legal system for it. Role Model != Clone - thinking so is absurd.

Role model != completely irrelevant tangent to circumstances.

Which is why I said you can call him a role model for people who've committed murder (or have done some other type of wrong of similar degree). Because yes, he is a role model for those people. For people who haven't done anything, not so much.

Neither is taking $20 and murdering. Somehow, you're able to play up "oh he's so brave" and downplay "he farking stabbed a guy for asking for ID".

Maybe because the congregation isn't admiring him for murder?


And like you, they seem to prefer to overlook that little detail and praise him for "courage".

No, just that he was heroic and a role model.

If a murderer throws himself in front of a bus to save a life, he's a hero for that action. Unless you think redemption (not in the biblical sense, but as a judicial concept) isn't possible.


Because saving someone's life and accepting punishment are obviously the same morally speaking. One is someone doing a good thing. I'm not gonna say that it is redeeming (as I'm not sure one can be for stabbing a guy) but it at least puts some plus points. Turning yourself in because of guilt benefits no one but your own guilty conscience.

This guy isn't on that level - he didn't give up his life for another - but he is giving up his freedom and maybe eventually his life, because he thinks it's the right thing to do. Personally I'm not sure that makes him a hero, but I can see how other people would think so - and I don't have a problem with them making that judgement. Especially since hero is a fairly meaningless term nowadays.

It's fairly meaningless for the very fact that people like to throw it around at just about any action that isn't someone being a complete farktwat. Like people are doing here.

And he definitely could be a positive role model. Probably not for the average 12-year-old suburbanite white kid, but there is a *large* segment of the youth population that could get a positive and useful message from his story. Frankly, I find it kind of amazing that people can't see that.

However - what I think really bothers me, is the assumption in this thread that his church is forgiving him because of religion. Personally I doubt that - if he had been at the local YMCA and dedicating his life to kids there, they would be saying the exact same things, just without the religious rhetoric. This kind of attitude isn't a religious one, it's a community one, based on Calvin's actions within that community. The fact that this is a church is a coincidence.


How many youth programs do you know would keep a convicted murderer who has been hiding that fact for 14 years (and hasn't been in jail)? I'm gonna say not many. No, I'm afraid this is the type of dumbassery only the very dense of sheep (a small portion of Christians and other religious types) can pull off.
 
2008-02-18 05:10:09 PM  
FTA: "The Bible says you just need to confess to God. Calvin took an extra step."

Am I wrong if I interpret this as a fundamental flaw in the speaker's (and possibly a majority of Christians) morality and philosophy? I've never liked that the underlying morality that seems to be here is that you can sin and then be forgiven in a fantasy world but never had to deal with the consequences of your sins in the real world.

Confessing to God did not bring the victim back to life, it did not console the victim's family, and it did not make society safer. Maybe there is some possibility that a truly felt confession would prevent him from murdering again. The problem is, does anyone really believe this works for anyone or everyone? I suppose only true believers would believe it would.
 
2008-02-18 05:16:22 PM  
imgod2u: Which is why I said you can call him a role model for people who've committed murder (or have done some other type of wrong of similar degree). Because yes, he is a role model for those people. For people who haven't done anything, not so much.

Uh, yeah. That was his point with the marijuana thing, I think. That being a role model means that you are modeling your behaviour in your particular role on somebody else's behaviour in that particular role.

Because saving someone's life and accepting punishment are obviously the same morally speaking. One is someone doing a good thing. I'm not gonna say that it is redeeming (as I'm not sure one can be for stabbing a guy) but it at least puts some plus points. Turning yourself in because of guilt benefits no one but your own guilty conscience.

It has no benefit for the victim's family? It has no benefit for society? It has no benefit for anybody, anywhere, except for the confessed murderer?

And don't even try to say he only did it for himself, because all actions are selfish. We throw ourselves in front of cars for children for purely selfish reasons. Propagation of the species, genetic altruism -- just the general selfishness of knowing that since you're going to die anyway, sooner or later, at least now you'll be remembered as "that guy that jumped in front of a car to save a kid".

How many youth programs do you know would keep a convicted murderer who has been hiding that fact for 14 years (and hasn't been in jail)? I'm gonna say not many. No, I'm afraid this is the type of dumbassery only the very dense of sheep (a small portion of Christians and other religious types) can pull off.

They're not keeping him. They're not attempting to spring him out of jail or shelter him. They're paying lip-service to the idea, but any group would do that. The fact of the matter is they're free to say they would keep him precisely because they cannot keep him.
 
2008-02-18 05:22:02 PM  
theoriginalslash: "Hero" used to mean a specific thing

YES!

going out of your way to help someone out, even at the possible expense of your own life.

... no!

A hero is half-man/half-god and someone noted for their cunning, courage, and strength.

Hero is also a tasty sandwich and the name of my favorite philosopher (choo choo!)

Regardless of how badly the definition of Hero has been farked up since, this man is still not it.
 
2008-02-18 05:22:52 PM  
Yep, religious people are stupid.

(cue red-headed girl)

It's a fact!
 
2008-02-18 05:24:17 PM  
God forgives him, the congregation thinks he's a hero - let's get Mr. Ahmed's family's opinion.
 
2008-02-18 05:26:38 PM  
Confabulat: Yep, religious people are stupid.

(cue red-headed girl)

It's a fact!


Stupidity is a prerequisite for religion. Ok, ignorance, then.
 
2008-02-18 05:28:57 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: Uh, yeah. That was his point with the marijuana thing, I think. That being a role model means that you are modeling your behaviour in your particular role on somebody else's behaviour in that particular role.

Uhh, no that wasn't his point. His point, and I will quote:

"imgod2u:
If those teens had murdered a person in cold blood and were trying to decide whether to fess up or not, yes. Otherwise, no.

Dance:
Or, you know, are starting to get into a gang/crime mindset, and realize this might be them in a few years?"

It has no benefit for the victim's family? It has no benefit for society? It has no benefit for anybody, anywhere, except for the confessed murderer?

Wow, that's right. The victim's family got their loved one back. Wait, nope. But they get to know who murdered him! That's gotta be a plus right? They get to find out that some 13 year old psycho enough to stab a guy for asking him for ID was on the loose for 14 years and is only now being send to jail. Must be so comforting for them. Must be so comforting to society.

And don't even try to say he only did it for himself, because all actions are selfish. We throw ourselves in front of cars for children for purely selfish reasons. Propagation of the species, genetic altruism -- just the general selfishness of knowing that since you're going to die anyway, sooner or later, at least now you'll be remembered as "that guy that jumped in front of a car to save a kid".

I guess was just as selfish as this guy. Ya, they're all the same!

They're not keeping him. They're not attempting to spring him out of jail or shelter him. They're paying lip-service to the idea, but any group would do that.

No, they wouldn't. Most groups would probably adopt a (more) sane comment such as "well, we're glad he confessed and we hope he's truly sorry but really, he needs professional help and to get the hell away from us".

/There's forgiveness and then there's blind stupidity because somehow "forgiving" makes you feel all warm and fuzzy and self-righteous inside.
 
2008-02-18 05:41:34 PM  
Yeep. I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to say that this guy is a hero. Nope. He's admitting his crime, and now he will be punished for it. The judge will likely be lenient in sentencing, given the circumstances, but let's be clear - do the crime, do the time. Do I have a 100% easier time with this guy than someone who tries to get out of it? Perhaps. But still, he goes to jail now.
 
2008-02-18 05:46:56 PM  
mmmerf: Yeep. I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to say that this guy is a hero. Nope. He's admitting his crime, and now he will be punished for it. The judge will likely be lenient in sentencing, given the circumstances, but let's be clear - do the crime, do the time. Do I have a 100% easier time with this guy than someone who tries to get out of it? Perhaps. But still, he goes to jail now.

Meanwhile, Mr. Ahmed, and any family he had, is saying "Yay, God."
 
2008-02-18 05:49:18 PM  
jimmybobby: He stabbed someone unpremeditated, who happened to die...

Also known as "killing someone".
 
2008-02-18 05:53:28 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: As a self-identified Methodist you should be aware that Pentecostalism is a direct descendant of Methodism. They share Arminian soteriology and Wesleyan theology (not the denomination, of course).

Nope, they rejected Wesleyan theology, which kinda doesn't make them Methodist. Jeez, even most Baptists espouse Arminian Free-Will beliefs anymore.

Pentecostals are Calvinists. They were followers of Whitfield tracing back to the Great Awakening. I'm from the Wesleyan side of Methodism, not the evangelical Calvinist side. Only recently did we reform into United Methodism (1968), bringing with us The Evangelical Bretheren. And it's not been fun since.

Dr. Mojo PhD: They turned out to be Pentecostal, which is definitely not non-denominational.

Many Pentecostals are non-denominational. It's a movement. They self-identify as Pentecostal, and their beliefs are consistent with fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs. Since they don't belong to The United Pentecostal Church or any major denomination, my point stands.

They self-identify as fundamentalist, and they're in Texas. If a black man killed a 8-year-old white boy, odds are most of the congregation would advocate the death penalty.


Most Pentecostals and evangelicals are pro death penalty.
 
2008-02-18 05:55:58 PM  
doupathol:

you OBVIOUSLY missed my point. Let me help you....

Just because one may not be religious does not mean one does not have morals. I know it's irrelevant to the article, but I was merely responding to our Persecuted Christian friend. If this guy believed in the total opposite of Gods word then YES no doubt he would of killed again (satanist). His remark on Atheists' disregard for COMMON FARKING SENSE was alittle silly....


Well first of all, the doctrine of the overwhelming majority of practicing Satanists has absolutely nothing to do with Christianity. Secondly, if one worshiped the Biblical Satan, who murdered fewer people than the Biblical God, it would stand to reason that the Satan worshiper would be less likely to commit murder than a God worshiper. Also, the entire Christian concept of Satan as an "opposite of God" has no historical basis. The Old Testament clearly describes Satan as an obedient angel of God, used for testing the faithfulness of his servants, which is what Jews have always believed.
 
2008-02-18 05:58:38 PM  
How many Satanists has anyone ever really met?

Geraldo Riviera nonwithstanding.
 
2008-02-18 06:00:27 PM  
Inflatable Rhetoric: God forgives him, the congregation thinks he's a hero - let's get Mr. Ahmed's family's opinion.

Who cares what Mr. Ahmed's family thinks? With a name like Ahmed I'm guessing they're not from around here if you know what I mean. And the youth of the church are losing a role model...who else is going to demonstrate how to insert the knife between the second and third ribs without hitting bone?
 
2008-02-18 06:04:57 PM  
palladiate: Pentecostals are Calvinists. They were followers of Whitfield tracing back to the Great Awakening. I'm from the Wesleyan side of Methodism, not the evangelical Calvinist side

I'm a afraid I agree with Dr Mojo PhD on this one. Pentecostals were originally an offshoot of the Holiness movement, which grew out of Methodism--what with the post-Civil War pessimism and the Second Great Awakening and all that. While neo-Calvinist theology has become important in contemporary Pentecostalism, that is a relatively recent import. Simply because there were ecstatics in the First Great Awakening doesn't make them Pentecostals. There were plenty of ecstatics and practitioners of spiritual gifts among the early Mormons too, but like the Holiness/Pentecostals they definitely were products of the Second Great Awakening, not the First. There is very little historical Calvinism in Pentecostal theology--it would be difficult to find something more removed from the Synod of Dort than experential Pentecostalism.
 
2008-02-18 06:10:41 PM  
AnnoyingKidNextDoor: PersecutedChristian: ratbert: PersecutedChristian: It is impossible to sin when you've offered yourself up to the Lord, and allow the Holy Spirit to take control of your life.

You mean like the Crusaders who raped and pillaged their way to the Holy Land?

First of all, Catholics aren't Christians. Second, The Crusades were a response against Islamist aggression. I'm sure you'd much rather be a little dhimmi in some Arab country today instead of living in a free country founded on Christian principles.

OK, you lost me there. I'm a Christian (darn proud of it), and people like you are killing our religion. If you knew anything about Christianity at all, you'd know that Catholicism was one of the, if not the first Christian religion to pop up.

In other words, you fail. You might do nicely on the Michael Savage Show though.
This

Michael Savage is all kinds of crazy, and not in the good way. I hear the word Islamo-Fascist one more time...Catholics aren't Christians? ¿Que? o_O

eff ewe: somamoons: The guy actually lived up to his name as a Christian by coming foward and being honest.

Thou shalt not ki... never mind


i16.photobucket.com "Too Jewish..."

/I know, not the right picture
//I'm lazy
 
2008-02-18 06:42:38 PM  
PersecutedChristian

You're a troll right? Maybe some kind of weird social experiment or trying to reach people through satire? Please don't tell me that you're really as ignorant as you appear.
 
2008-02-18 06:44:24 PM  
palladiate: Nope, they rejected Wesleyan theology, which kinda doesn't make them Methodist. Jeez, even most Baptists espouse Arminian Free-Will beliefs anymore.

I'm afraid they didn't.

Pentecostals are Calvinists.

That is one hell of a stretch of the imagination and definition of Calvinist. Some Pentecostals are moderate Calvinists, most Pentecostals are Arminian.

They were followers of Whitfield tracing back to the Great Awakening. I'm from the Wesleyan side of Methodism, not the evangelical Calvinist side. Only recently did we reform into United Methodism (1968), bringing with us The Evangelical Bretheren. And it's not been fun since.

You mean Whitefield, and no. Whitefield was a part of the first Great Awakening (or simply The Great Awakening) in the 1730s and 40s. Pentecostalism as we know it comes from the Methodist Holiness movement, which originated well after the First Great Awakening. In fact, the Holiness movement's use of the term Pentecostal seems to trace itself until after the Second Great Awakening, putting Pentecostalism itself in a position much closer to the beginning of the Third Great Awakening than a product of the Second. I suppose the argument could be made that Whitefield had a hand in the overall Holiness movement, but so did Asbury and the Wesleys John & Charles.

Many Pentecostals are non-denominational. It's a movement. They self-identify as Pentecostal, and their beliefs are consistent with fundamentalist Pentecostal beliefs.

I'm sorry, but that's a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "denomination". Denomination is used almost exclusively to refer to the sub-sects of the Protestant sect. While the Pentecostal movement may be referred to as such, it's a semantics game. Ask yourself if a Baptist church could reasonably adopt Pentecostalism as easily as it could evangelism. Or any other denomination, for that matter. I'm quite afraid that independent churches do not necessarily have to be part of a synod/council/seat/diocese to fit the bill of denomination.

For a denomination to stand, the only question is, to these people follow a core set of beliefs that is in line with other beliefs practiced in other areas. The answer is yes, and they are denominational for it.

In non-denominational church you may find multiple ways to celebrate the Eucharist, for example. In non-denominational churches you may find a ecumenical preaching service, hosting a rotating guest of Baptist, Methodist, Lutherans, and Presbyterians speakers, and if you really felt like a fist fight, Catholic and Orthodox -- or going one step farther and having interfaith services.

In a non-denominational church you may find none of these things except a congregation that got together, decided that the other ways weren't good enough, and made up their own, and ended up making a denomination, just without a name.

All in all pentecostalism is a denomination whether it is a member of a larger Pentecostal organization (COGIC, for one) or not.

Since they don't belong to The United Pentecostal Church or any major denomination, my point stands.

See above.

They self-identify as fundamentalist, and they're in Texas. If a black man killed a 8-year-old white boy, odds are most of the congregation would advocate the death penalty.

If its a question of race, again: Why the offering of Spanish services? They're clearly not racist.

Again, another problem: Pentecostalism is a largely black denomination. The role played by blacks in Pentecostalism can not be overstated, and the above-mentioned Church of God in Christ is the single-largest black church organization in the United States.

I think it may be a bit of a stretch to assume that a Church which self-identifies with a non-racial, very Black church organization and which offers its services in Spanish is racially oriented.

Most Pentecostals and evangelicals are pro death penalty.

As much as that may be, there are still some that aren't. There are churches which advocate the death penalty but have congregates which disagree with it. Can you give your assurances that this is not the case here?

Somacandra: I'm a afraid I agree with Dr Mojo PhD on this one.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence.
 
2008-02-18 06:55:19 PM  
Given that he was "Born again" after the murder, and he decided to turn himself in even though there seemed to be no chance he would have been caught I say his actions, at this time, are very commendable.

Sure he never shoulda stabbed the guy to begin with, but most Christians I know would say "That was the old me, I have made peace with God" and feel they have done their part. Aside from changing the past, what more do you expect of this guy?
 
2008-02-18 06:58:46 PM  
mmmerf: Yeep. I'm a Christian, but I'm not going to say that this guy is a hero. Nope. He's admitting his crime, and now he will be punished for it. The judge will likely be lenient in sentencing, given the circumstances, but let's be clear - do the crime, do the time. Do I have a 100% easier time with this guy than someone who tries to get out of it? Perhaps. But still, he goes to jail now.

To be fair the article didn't say he was trying to stay out of jail, just that someone from his church thinks he should (stay out).

If he is willing to face the music, well hero is too strong a word I agree, but he is showing that his faith is more than just words.
 
2008-02-18 07:11:16 PM  
jst3p: If he is willing to face the music, well hero is too strong a word I agree, but he is showing that his faith is more than just words.

If by too strong a word, you mean "totally inappropriate", then we're in agreement. When something is "too strong", it implies a difference of degrees, not deed. There is nothing heroic about his actions, nor could there be. He's not confessing a murder so that he can save another human life at the cost of his own. He's not confessing to a murder so that he can cause some drastic net gain for humanity at an expense to himself. His action in this particular case involves no heroic elements.

Saying the word is "too strong" is like saying that his actions being Rastafarian is too strong. It's simply a totally inappropriate descriptor.
 
2008-02-18 07:14:44 PM  
You know what would've been closer to heroic? Not killing someone.
 
2008-02-18 07:15:40 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: If by too strong a word, you mean "totally inappropriate", then we're in agreement. When something is "too strong", it implies a difference of degrees, not deed. There is nothing heroic about his actions, nor could there be. He's not confessing a murder so that he can save another human life at the cost of his own.

He is giving up his life, in every meaningful way, to show those that look up to him how important it is to do the right thing. It is likely more than most would do in his situation.

I seem to remember you being a complete argumentative tool from some other conversation we have had in the past so I am not going to waste any more time responding to you.
 
2008-02-18 07:19:29 PM  
jst3p: He is giving up his life, in every meaningful way, to show those that look up to him how important it is to do the right thing. It is likely more than most would do in his situation.

Taking responsibility for your actions isn't heroic. It's the keystone of being a decent human being. So, good for him, he's a decent human being. He was a scummy human being, and now he's decent. That doesn't make him a hero.

I seem to remember you being a complete argumentative tool from some other conversation we have had in the past so I am not going to waste any more time responding to you.

Haha yeah I remember that, you got very mad and left the thread in a big huff with everybody laughing at you. Way to repeat the mistakes of the past. You should look to your hero for ways not to do that.
 
2008-02-18 07:24:46 PM  
verbaltoxin: You know what would've been closer to heroic? Not killing someone.

Sweet, I've never killed anyone!

/I'm a hero now, right?
//Right???
 
2008-02-18 07:26:47 PM  
verbaltoxin: You know what would've been closer to heroic? Not killing someone.

Tell that to the boys who were at Normandy.
 
2008-02-18 07:37:31 PM  
jst3p: verbaltoxin: You know what would've been closer to heroic? Not killing someone.

Tell that to the boys who were at Normandy.


Yeah I agree, it's time the Germans finally got some credit for their fine work.

Golly gee, taking things deliberately out of context to be as obtuse as possible sure is fun, Mr. Johnson! I can see why jst3p likes it so much!
 
2008-02-18 07:39:25 PM  
Thank Jesus he wasn't born left handed.
 
2008-02-18 07:40:38 PM  
Dr. Mojo PhD: jst3p: verbaltoxin: You know what would've been closer to heroic? Not killing someone.

Tell that to the boys who were at Normandy.

Yeah I agree, it's time the Germans finally got some credit for their fine work.

Golly gee, taking things deliberately out of context to be as obtuse as possible sure is fun, Mr. Johnson! I can see why jst3p likes it so much!


I was just making a cheap joke, you may have an unhealthy obsession.
 
2008-02-18 07:44:26 PM  
PersecutedChristian: first of all, Catholics aren't Christians.

lol wut?
 
2008-02-18 07:50:00 PM  
Dr Mojo Ph.D., on further reflection, unsubscribe me from the newsletter.
 
2008-02-18 07:52:49 PM  
unclejimbo827: PersecutedChristian: first of all, Catholics aren't Christians.

lol wut?


Funny thing about Christians, whatever sect you are talking to gets to decide who is or is not a "Christian".

According to some Protestant denominations, Catholics are not "Christians" because, among other transgressions, they idolize Mary to the point of praying to her, which puts her above God.

One would think that anyone who believes in and attempts to follow the teachings of Christ is a "Christian" but that definition is for outsiders. Believers often get great pleasure in pointing out how their interpretation and tradition is the "right" one.

Ask a Morman about who is and is not a "Christian".
 
2008-02-18 08:12:30 PM  
Somacandra: Pentecostals were originally an offshoot of the Holiness movement, which grew out of Methodism

I know that. Whitefield was a Methodist. I took exception to him inferring we were all evangelicals. And sorry to misspell it, but it is pronounced Whitfield.

It's like calling Methodism Catholic because we grew out of them. Not very likely.

Dr. Mojo PhD: I'm afraid they didn't.

Umm, yes they did. If they didn't, they would have been invited to join back into the Methodist church. I'm going to need to see a citation on how Pentecostals still follow Wesleyan theology.

The Pentecostals and the Episcopals split. They were not invited back when the church reformed in the 60s because they became fundamentally incompatible with Methodism. Don't argue me this, my grandfather started a dozen Methodist churches, so I grew up learning ALL about this crap. Peddling Pentecostalism in front of him would get you punched, no fooling. And God knows I heard enough about it growing up.

In fact, according to Oral Roberts University, and others, we left them.

Dr. Mojo PhD: If its a question of race, again: Why the offering of Spanish services? They're clearly not racist.

OK, since I lean and vote right, that means I'm racist? What the hell does that have to do with the death penalty? Why do you keep bringing up race?

Dr. Mojo PhD: Most Pentecostals and evangelicals are pro death penalty.

As much as that may be, there are still some that aren't. There are churches which advocate the death penalty but have congregates which disagree with it. Can you give your assurances that this is not the case here?


My point was that on average, they likely do. If we aren't granted generalizations, we may as well all shut the fark up. My point, that they are likely Pentecostals that support the death penalty is more likely than not. GIVE IT UP. You hold an indefensible position, based on a false idea that you cannot draw generalizations.

And to a Methodist, regardless of how many there are, or how you could define a loose set of theology as a denomiation, Pentacostals are fundamentalist.
 
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