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(Metro)   Average man proposes two years, 11 months and eight days after meeting the woman who will ruin his life   (metro.co.uk) divider line 273
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14828 clicks; posted to Main » on 17 Feb 2008 at 9:13 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-02-17 11:23:28 PM  
wombatsrus: Phosphorus: Hot Bride Thread?
/yeah I know, sharp knees, too fat, wouldn't hit, yada, yada yada


Pimp My Bride (Jimmy Kimmel)
 
2008-02-17 11:23:59 PM  
mypalmike: Daddakamabb: I mean of course you can have the big wedding but if you insist and she's like hell no or the wedding will be off... then I say that is the time to let her go.

Just went through this. Her insistence on a big wedding was indeed the clear signal that she wasn't in it for the right reasons. There were many others, and I ignored them for far too long. Being single again is far more refreshing than I even imagined.


Dude you made a smart move. Being a chick I can tell you there are some serious psychos out there and a money grubbing attention whore is not how you want to start you marriage. Good job! Keep holding out there are sane chicks out there... you just might have to filter through all the crap first.
 
2008-02-17 11:24:54 PM  
frostus2008-02-17 11:19:50 PM
DrForrester: where do I find "hot venezuelan and brazilian pussy"?

Same place DulceEtDecorumEst does, in your dreams.


Funny.

Step 1: Take care of your health and appearance, tan, workout, etc.
Step 2: Learn Spanish - fluently.
Step3: Become familar with latin music - Manu Chao, Los Amigos Invisibles, etc, this can help with step 2
Step 4: Travel to Brazil or Venezuela

this is not difficult. If you are friendly, and speak their language, you will get into their pants. They are horny women, and their cultures totally encourage them to go for it.
 
2008-02-17 11:25:16 PM  
JmBa: Two years from engagement to wedding? What takes so long? How long can a wedding take to prepare? And you know most women have it half planned out before they even meet the guy. I don't understand those long engagement people.

Agreed. Our engagement was a hair over 4 months. She didn't have any plans beforehand because she thought it would 'jinx' the marriage. Anyone who says they need at least a year to plan a wedding is out of touch with reality.

/course it helped that her career was involved with weddings to start out with
 
2008-02-17 11:25:38 PM  
Happily single ad nauseum. I'll be a bachelor my whole life if necessary. I get plenty of regular sex with many different women.

I'd consider getting married if I meet a hot, teasing, coquettish, mystifying woman who has her own career and cannot compromise my financial situation. We live together as long as it works. If it stops working, you take your shiat and I take mine and we go our separate ways.

If I never meet such a woman, I'm perfectly okay with things going forward just like they are today. I'll be retired at 50 while you farkers are working until 70 to save what's left of your money after alimony and child support.
 
2008-02-17 11:27:45 PM  
Daddakamabb: fanbladesaresharp:

Hi if you pay attention you will see that I corrected myself. Pay attention.


C'mon man don't get pushy. The time for me to read the threadz and reply, other things get posted. I'm not going to hit F5 every 15 seconds, unless it's an Epic Thread.
 
2008-02-17 11:27:49 PM  
i147.photobucket.com

/I hear that after "I do" the remote no longer works
 
2008-02-17 11:28:11 PM  
Daddakamabb: Her insistence on a big wedding was indeed the clear signal that she wasn't in it for the right reasons. There were many others, and I ignored them for far too long. Being single again is far more refreshing than I even imagined.

What's your advice if the "big wedding" pressure is coming from the guy? My man (after 7 years on again/off again relationship) is insistent on a big wedding and I'd love nothing more than to elope.
 
2008-02-17 11:28:15 PM  
wombatsrus: Phosphorus: Hot Bride Thread?

images.amazon.com


how'd you find my wedding dress?

/;0)
 
2008-02-17 11:30:04 PM  
Wow. That's a lot of jaded.. uh.. ness.

I've been married for nearly 3 years now. It might still be technically 'newlywed', but nothing changed or stopped.
 
2008-02-17 11:30:19 PM  
MrSteve007: Agreed. Our engagement was a hair over 4 months. She didn't have any plans beforehand because she thought it would 'jinx' the marriage. Anyone who says they need at least a year to plan a wedding is out of touch with reality.

I remember listening to one girl talk about the "hell" she went through planning her wedding in "just six months". Best wedding I went to, in terms of enjoyability, was planned in 3 weeks. Ceremony and reception all in one community hall. Bridesmaids wore what they wanted, and shockingly no one cared. Do people really think some fuzzly elderly aunt is going to stand up and yell "THE BRIDESMAIDS DONT MATCH, THIS WEDDING IS A SHAM!"?

/Dinner was potluck, and delicious.
//Mother was upset with me for being 'underdressed', until we walked inside
 
2008-02-17 11:30:59 PM  
DulceEtDecorumEst: Step 1: Take care of your health and appearance, tan, workout, etc.
Step 2: Learn Spanish - fluently.
Step3: Become familar with latin music - Manu Chao, Los Amigos Invisibles, etc, this can help with step 2
Step 4: Travel to Brazil or Venezuela

this is not difficult


Can't... Stop... Laughing.
 
2008-02-17 11:31:43 PM  
Misanthropology: My man (after 7 years on again/off again relationship) is insistent on a big wedding and I'd love nothing more than to elope.

I'd almost bet there's pressure from his family moreso than his own desire. I can't believe how many things people do for their weddings because it's "expected" of them.
 
2008-02-17 11:33:56 PM  
fanbladesaresharp: Daddakamabb: fanbladesaresharp:

Hi if you pay attention you will see that I corrected myself. Pay attention.

C'mon man don't get pushy. The time for me to read the threadz and reply, other things get posted. I'm not going to hit F5 every 15 seconds, unless it's an Epic Thread.


Dude I posted my last reply at 10:58:59 PM and you posted at 11:12:04 PM did it really take you 10 mins to reply? Seriously?

I get what you were saying but you weren't responding to mulitple posts... but meh it doesn't really matter but my point still stands.

/Where does being a grammar nazi really get you anyway? Do you feel better about yourself now?
 
2008-02-17 11:35:53 PM  
itsdan:
I'd almost bet there's pressure from his family moreso than his own desire. I can't believe how many things people do for their weddings because it's "expected" of them.


he would be the first son to get married - I'm the third daughter for my family, so that makes sense. It just blows that the "irrational bride" is more sensible about a wedding than the potential groom. Role reversal is not my friend.
 
2008-02-17 11:37:03 PM  
Wow, my girlfriend and I passed that mark several years ago..... Still enjoying what I have, though!

/Someone told me the other day to "shiat or get off the pot"
 
2008-02-17 11:39:07 PM  
Misanthropology: Daddakamabb: Her insistence on a big wedding was indeed the clear signal that she wasn't in it for the right reasons. There were many others, and I ignored them for far too long. Being single again is far more refreshing than I even imagined.

What's your advice if the "big wedding" pressure is coming from the guy? My man (after 7 years on again/off again relationship) is insistent on a big wedding and I'd love nothing more than to elope.


Well not to be a ass but the on again off again relationship is the real issue. How do you know that what ever previous issues are not going to come up again in your relationship. I mean your supposed to want to be with this person for the rest of you life and you guys keep breaking up while dating? That seems suspect. But anyway... it still stands... if he absolutely refuses to agree to small wedding and would call it off if it were not a big wedding then drop him, and do it now. He's not in love with you and material things would be more important to him then just having the 'most magical day of your life' together no matter how shiatty or shabby the circumstances.

Your marring each other... not a ceremony.
 
2008-02-17 11:39:41 PM  
So the earliest I could conceivably propose will be January 26th, 2011?

/should probably get back in the game
 
2008-02-17 11:40:47 PM  
Been together with my boyfriend for 8 years. We're about to buy a house. I told him we should have a baby next, then get married. Just so we can say we did it completely backwards.

I don't think marriage is a big deal...but we'll make it legal someday. More like a big party with friends and family with a little ceremony thrown in at the beginning.
 
2008-02-17 11:44:00 PM  
Daddakamabb: fanbladesaresharp:

I get what you were saying but you weren't responding to mulitple posts... but meh it doesn't really matter but my point still stands.

/Where does being a grammar nazi really get you anyway? Do you feel better about yourself now?


Easy Cujo. I didn't get on anyone's grammar. I misssspell shiat on purpose, yo. This isn't the only thread I'm sitting in, so that's why it takes 10 minutes to respond. You're not the only one I'm having conversations with. Unless Fark is running an IRC room I don't know about.....Yes you're point stands. OK?
 
2008-02-17 11:45:04 PM  
I had a great girlfriend. We dated for a few years. Things were great and I loved her to death. Got married. She began the nag before we got to our honeymoon suite. She began to blow the electric, cable and rent at the casino and fast food for her fat and lazy perma-couch kids. The cops had to haul her off for domestic assault one night and they stuck her in the psycho ward in the pokey for a few days. While she was in there I moved my stuff out and got off the lease. $250 for quicky divorce papers and $250 to file I feel I got off lucky.

/Never could stand that dog.
 
2008-02-17 11:48:32 PM  
fanbladesaresharp: Daddakamabb: fanbladesaresharp:

I get what you were saying but you weren't responding to mulitple posts... but meh it doesn't really matter but my point still stands.

/Where does being a grammar nazi really get you anyway? Do you feel better about yourself now?

Easy Cujo. I didn't get on anyone's grammar. I misssspell shiat on purpose, yo. This isn't the only thread I'm sitting in, so that's why it takes 10 minutes to respond. You're not the only one I'm having conversations with. Unless Fark is running an IRC room I don't know about.....Yes you're point stands. OK?


You were correcting my syntax which is part of grammar... but anyway it's cool. I understand. Didn't mean to come off as a douche but if I did sorry.
 
2008-02-17 11:54:05 PM  
Arbitrator: /Someone told me the other day to "shiat or get off the pot"

Is it because he hoped to get on that pot himself?
 
2008-02-17 11:54:54 PM  
Sans Pantalones: You have to be ready for marriage, and so does the other person. It has nothing to do with whether you're "right" for each other, or what your differences are, or any of that bullshiat.

You have to be ready. You have to be accepting, be patient, and know how to fight fair; how to forgive and forget.

Some people are like that when they're 15, some people are when they're 35, some people will never be ready. In this age of "gimme now", most are in the latter category, which explains the divorce rate.



To be fair, I think a lot of the problems with marriage today are due to massively different social conditions in this day and age compared to the days in which the institution of marriage developed.

In Biblical times, people were married off in their early teens, had a family through their late teens up to mid 20s, and life expectancy was around 30. There was little more to life for the average person than backbreaking labour and survival. Going much further into the future, even only 100 years ago the situation wasn't too much better. Life for the average person was not much more than constant backbreaking labour, cranking out enough kids that survive through childhood to keep your family line going, and a life expectancy of 40 or so.

My point is, the whole concept of individual life aspirations is something that's actually relatively modern - in terms of it's availability to a majority of the population. 100 years ago, life was pretty harsh and predictable for the average person. Educational and recreational aspirations basically didn't exist, except for a tiny burgher elite and royalty. The rest of the population were happy if they had enough bread each day and didn't die of cholera.

Not only all that, but social roles and hierarchies were extremely rigid. Women especially didn't have much of a voice, but all average people generally lived lives with very little room for individual aspirations or recreational hobbies. The fact that certain institutions were more "solid" in that day and age has far more to do with necessity and lack of real choices, than with people being more noble and selfless then, and people being more self-centred and selfish now.

While I do agree there is some level of "gimme now" selfishness around today, I think the problems with "traditional marriage" stem more from the different social conditions today to all past eras we look at during which these institutions developed. Simply put, it isn't as necessary, or as easy to do anymore. People live much longer for one. If you grew up in the 19th Century, lived in grinding poverty, and were brought up knowing that your role in life is to crank out a few kids and die at the next cholera outbreak, committing to another person for life is a very different thing than now - where you've got a whole World of possible aspirations to explore and you can easily hope to live will you're 80.
 
2008-02-17 11:55:29 PM  
6.75 years for me.

7.75 before the deal was sealed.

No one told me about the credit cards...
 
2008-02-17 11:55:29 PM  
shadowmage.plinkomedia.com
 
2008-02-17 11:57:20 PM  
itsdan: What I don't get is, don't you feel like that now? If you don't, what is some paperwork and a ceremony going to change?

Weight gain, sexual detente, and lifelong ennui?

/just a guess
 
2008-02-17 11:57:32 PM  
Proposed after 3 weeks. Moved in together after a year. Married three years after that. Been married 18 years.
 
2008-02-17 11:57:54 PM  
Misanthropology -- my husband's family would have killed us with guilt if we'd eloped like i wanted. So, i didn't get the wedding of my original dreams (just us and some kinda priest guy or something on the beach where we first 'got together', so to speak) but now i'm glad i did it -- it was nice to have the families around and plus, it was our wedding. i would have been happy if it had been in an airport.

of course, his mom planned and paid for most of it, so i didn't have to stress. plus, i love my mom-in-law. that probably had a lot to do with it.
 
2008-02-17 11:59:02 PM  
Daddakamabb: Well not to be a ass but the on again off again relationship is the real issue. How do you know that what ever previous issues are not going to come up again in your relationship. I mean your supposed to want to be with this person for the rest of you life and you guys keep breaking up while dating? That seems suspect. But anyway... it still stands... if he absolutely refuses to agree to small wedding and would call it off if it were not a big wedding then drop him, and do it now. He's not in love with you and material things would be more important to him then just having the 'most magical day of your life' together no matter how shiatty or shabby the circumstances.

Your marring each other... not a ceremony.



I completely agree with your assessment...but we've split because of distance, not disagreement. We don't have "issues," we have countries separating us due to work obligations. However, once we can be in the same country, we're wanting to commit (i.e. marriage). But I want a small, celebratory ceremony and his mother probably will not be satisfied...so I'm not sure what to do. Make him happy (which means making his mother happy) or insist on what will make US happy as a couple...
 
2008-02-18 12:02:25 AM  
deusse: Misanthropology -- my husband's family would have killed us with guilt if we'd eloped like i wanted. So, i didn't get the wedding of my original dreams (just us and some kinda priest guy or something on the beach where we first 'got together', so to speak) but now i'm glad i did it -- it was nice to have the families around and plus, it was our wedding. i would have been happy if it had been in an airport.

of course, his mom planned and paid for most of it, so i didn't have to stress. plus, i love my mom-in-law. that probably had a lot to do with it.


Well, my family will be paying for it more so than his (in entirety), so can that be an argument? Or will it be an incident for ill-will in the future? I don't need the angry mother-in-law! :)
 
2008-02-18 12:02:35 AM  
www.productdose.com
 
2008-02-18 12:09:28 AM  
Science Be Praised: flaming99: That's ok, us married people enjoy watching your antics - it's like real-life reality TV to us.

I am pretty sure it's because you have no lives anymore.


BINGO.
 
2008-02-18 12:10:22 AM  
Misanthropology: Daddakamabb: Well not to be a ass but the on again off again relationship is the real issue. How do you know that what ever previous issues are not going to come up again in your relationship. I mean your supposed to want to be with this person for the rest of you life and you guys keep breaking up while dating? That seems suspect. But anyway... it still stands... if he absolutely refuses to agree to small wedding and would call it off if it were not a big wedding then drop him, and do it now. He's not in love with you and material things would be more important to him then just having the 'most magical day of your life' together no matter how shiatty or shabby the circumstances.

Your marring each other... not a ceremony.


I completely agree with your assessment...but we've split because of distance, not disagreement. We don't have "issues," we have countries separating us due to work obligations. However, once we can be in the same country, we're wanting to commit (i.e. marriage). But I want a small, celebratory ceremony and his mother probably will not be satisfied...so I'm not sure what to do. Make him happy (which means making his mother happy) or insist on what will make US happy as a couple...


I understand but I mean if he says he would be okay with a small wedding, then you know he is willing to compromise... if he's not willing then yeah he's not 'husband material.' If you want a small wedding and he wants a big wedding then you both need to compromise and go for something middle sized. You are not there to please his mother, your there to please him... and he you. His mother should not be a factor in deciding on your wedding... not unless you have asked her to help. Other wise her opinion should mean nothing it's not her wedding. If making him happy consists of making his mother happy then he has some serious attachment issues. You need to make both of you happy... and the only way to do that is for both of you to give in and listen and compromise.

If his mom isn't happy with the wedding well fark her... she can go get married if she wants a big wedding.
 
2008-02-18 12:12:42 AM  
FarksResidentFeminist: FarksResidentFeminist: bearcats1983: I don't think guys these days are against the "ceremony" of marriage, it's that the 'modern woman' has made him so jaded against the whole thing. I don't expect a meal on the table when I get home from work or my pipe and paper to be ready for me, however I do want to know that when I get home after a long ass day I won't be nagged to death about some minute thing until I want to hang myself. The modern and independent woman thing is bullshiat...

No, what you are saying is bullshiat.

I typically have dinner on the table. That is, if I am not doing work at Planned Parenthood or something like that to attend. He got me a KitchenAid Mixer for Christmas - I bake with it all the time. And yes, I get his pipe ready for him. And it's not the tobacco one.

Oh, and let me say.. we aren't married. There's no need for us to get married. We don't have sprogs (just a cat), and I sure as hell ain't ready, and neither is he.


That's all well and good, but the important question is:

Do you have a sister?
 
2008-02-18 12:14:37 AM  
I took mine for a hike. Up 10,834 ft. Mt. San Jacinto. Proposed at the top, perhaps the best view I've ever seen, between the sandwiches and dessert (beer). On the way down, she asked if I would have proposed if she hadn't made it to the top. Honest answer: nope. Honesty and directness are important, I always say. This occurred 3 years and 1 month after we first met, so I guess it's right in the neighborhood. Not getting married until 3 years after that point, though (grad school for both of us = money is reeeal tight).
 
2008-02-18 12:15:04 AM  
Misanthropology:

Well, my family will be paying for it more so than his (in entirety), so can that be an argument? Or will it be an incident for ill-will in the future? I don't need the angry mother-in-law! :)


No you cannot use the 'my family is paying for it' angle... you don't want to seem like a prissy biatch who has to get her way. If she is angry that the wedding wasn't big... then tell her to have a wedding of her own that suits her taste. This is not for her to decide, and if she holds it against you then I seriously just wouldn't be spending too much time with the in laws cause she obviously has issues... and you do not need to deal with HER issues. You are marrying your SO, and for her it's tough shiat.
 
2008-02-18 12:16:08 AM  
a man is not complete until he's married... and then he's finished!

/divorced 10 years; not gonna fall for the banana in the tailpipe again
 
2008-02-18 12:19:16 AM  
@thedeconstructionist
did i get that right? you're planning a 3 year long engagement? if so, why get engaged now?
(just curious)
 
2008-02-18 12:19:20 AM  
wow....should have been engaged twice by now. been with my boyfriend for almost 6 years (april 13), been living together for a year and 1/2, and now waiting for him to read this thread and my commet....
 
2008-02-18 12:19:27 AM  
Daddakamabb: If making him happy consists of making his mother happy then he has some serious attachment issues.
If his mom isn't happy with the wedding well fark her... she can go get married if she wants a big wedding.


BINGO! She's already had two weddings herself...not looking for a third as far as I know, but there are some serious issues there - we've worked through some, but I know that he would prefer to satisfy her requests over mine (it's already been driven into the ground in some respects).
 
2008-02-18 12:22:33 AM  
Anyone notice that the number of women claiming to be happily married (after x number of years) out number the men saying so in this thread?

Riddle me this: How many of these women believe their men are happy, but he's really miserable, and she's too busy controlling/manipulating/nagging his life to notice?

/I'm not bitter, I'm crazy, angry, volatile, and...fark, ok, bitter.
//Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who would want to live in an institution?
 
2008-02-18 12:25:34 AM  
quisqueyano:
Several reasons, actually: 1. it wasn't planned to be so long initially, but other factors made it clear that it should be, see (2) and (3); 2. my grad school financial aid would take a hit because her assets would count toward mine, and then I wouldn't be able to afford school without taking on stunning loan debt; 3. due to opportunities too good to turn down, we are currently (temporarily) living some 3000 miles apart (but thanks to modern air travel--never thought I'd say that--it's not hard to see each other often), so that's sort of delayed the next step.

We actually like it, as it makes the planning stage a lot less stressful to have time to work it all out--our disagreements over aspects of wedding plans are much less difficult to resolve when we have the time to reach a workable compromise or come up with another, mutually acceptable idea.
 
2008-02-18 12:27:28 AM  
makes sense (#2 especially)
 
2008-02-18 12:28:25 AM  
Misanthropology: Daddakamabb: If making him happy consists of making his mother happy then he has some serious attachment issues.
If his mom isn't happy with the wedding well fark her... she can go get married if she wants a big wedding.

BINGO! She's already had two weddings herself...not looking for a third as far as I know, but there are some serious issues there - we've worked through some, but I know that he would prefer to satisfy her requests over mine (it's already been driven into the ground in some respects).


I know this would be hard if I were you but if he choses his mother over you then again... your gonna have to call it off. There is absolutely nothing worse then having a SO go tattle on you to their mother because you did something they didn't like, instead of trying to work out the situation with you and being a grown up and dealing with it. Again you are marring him... not his mother... and if you are marrying both of them then it is not a healthy relationship. You can never be partners, and work through things when it gets a little patchy, if mommy is there reinforcing the idea that he doesn't have to try to work things out with you... that things that happen between the both of you are private and shouldn't be shared with anyone for any reason... and that not compromising is okay then your marriage would be doomed doomed I tells ya.

If he is going to go and blab to mommy then how can you trust him? How can you know that you can depend on him when you need him most?
 
2008-02-18 12:29:37 AM  
Daddakamabb: I seriously just wouldn't be spending too much time with the in laws cause she obviously has issues... and you do not need to deal with HER issues. You are marrying your SO, and for her it's tough shiat.


I agree with everything you're saying, but with this particular circumstance, I'm not only marrying him, but engaging in his family issues, and that includes an overprotective and involved mother (not to mention everything else), so I can't simply cast it aside. Any advice from that end?
 
2008-02-18 12:31:55 AM  
DulceEtDecorumEst: Ceqir2008-02-17 10:01:20 PM


For having such a deep and meaningful Internet handle, you sure come across as a shallow cynical bastard. Someone eat your heart and shiat it out?

Yes, although to be perfectly fair, I cheated first. In the end, she did worse, but on the bright side I got revenge.
Has it made me bitter? Somewhat. But I have always been fairly independent, and it is unlikely I would end up with someone long term anyway, because I enjoy traveling around, being alone, lots of changes, etc. Also, it is difficult for me to find women who are on my same level intellectually and who I want to fark. That was a big sticking point with my ex, she just wasn't very bright, no matter how well she screwed.
My solution is to focus on myself, get my intellectual satisfaction from work and reading, and get my sexual satisfaction by nailing as many hot young women as possible, often when I'm traveling in Latin America. So far it seems to be working out well for me.


I applaud your future clap. May you be blessed with more responsibility should you ever have a child.
 
2008-02-18 12:32:00 AM  
I'm 37, so I'm well past that 'everybody's getting married' stage, and none of my friends have yet divorced.

Just turned 38... had one of my closest friends tell me -at my birthday party no less- that she was divorcing her husband of 18 years.

Heading out this weekend to see old college roomie who's legally separated from HER hubby of 4 years.

Found out I guy I worked with on some shoots, made dinner for his wife, cleaned the house and as they were eating, "I want a divorce I'm moving to California tonight"

Dropping like flies man! but I don't want sloppy seconds... at least with THOSE guys, yuck! I"m in a similar boat as you TM most of my derby friends are involved and I pretty much just hang out with girls all the time. Oh well, I hate to break the 'lifetime tv for women' axiom, but I'm quite happy being by myself. Sometimes I do wish there was someone around, yet I refuse to settle for someone who makes my stabby muscles ache when he speaks. Mind MATTERS!

-MEB
 
2008-02-18 12:32:06 AM  
Scifientologist: Anyone notice that the number of women claiming to be happily married (after x number of years) out number the men saying so in this thread?

Riddle me this: How many of these women believe their men are happy, but he's really miserable, and she's too busy controlling/manipulating/nagging his life to notice?

/I'm not bitter, I'm crazy, angry, volatile, and...fark, ok, bitter.
//Marriage is a wonderful institution, but who would want to live in an institution?


I know he's happily married to me because periodically I ask him if he is and if he's not then what can I do to make it better.

Not just that if he wasn't I know he would be sleeping around... I know him like a book... and I've seen him in other relationships wander when he wasn't happy... and I can see the signs a mile away. But I make sure they never crop up. Prevetion is worth a pound of yada yada.
 
2008-02-18 12:32:24 AM  
Daddakamabb:
If he is going to go and blab to mommy then how can you trust him? How can you know that you can depend on him when you need him most?


He doesn't go blab to her - she makes it her business and intervenes. I can depend on him. She simply makes it difficult once she learns what's going on.
 
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