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(Breitbart.com)   Israeli soldiers escalate tensions in the Middle East, by mooning Palestinians   (breitbart.com) divider line 437
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6863 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Feb 2008 at 6:08 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



437 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread
 
2008-02-04 04:27:06 AM
If you see the video it seems that 2 guys was taking a leak and one saw that he was being filmed so he flashed a V sign.

The article is very neutral and unbiased: "exposing themselves to Palestinian shepherds in order to try and make them leave an area"

Yeah that's a good idea. You want people to leave, take down your pants.
And a great response by Ahmed "Fifth Column" Tibi there.
 
2008-02-04 04:41:07 AM
Can't we all just get along?
 
2008-02-04 05:27:49 AM
If you see the video it seems that 2 guys was

2 guys were. Anyway here's the video:
Link -NSFW (if you work in a monastery or such).

I'm sure the shepherds will be traumatized for life. all soldiers involved were sentenced to 21 days in prison.
 
2008-02-04 06:21:54 AM
And of course Hamas responds with two suicide bombers. One blew up, one was shot dead before he went off.
 
2008-02-04 06:24:16 AM
Israeli soldiers you say?

farm2.static.flickr.com
farm2.static.flickr.com
farm2.static.flickr.com
farm2.static.flickr.com

My work here is done.
 
2008-02-04 06:24:35 AM
Que pics of the hot IDF ladies -- I would not mind being mooned by them!
 
2008-02-04 06:28:51 AM
ultraholland: Israeli soldiers you say?


My work here is done.


Good call, the article sucked.
 
2008-02-04 06:31:36 AM
I came here for the IDF girls... this thread delivers!
files.myopera.com
 
2008-02-04 06:38:04 AM
Jormungandr: Que pics of the hot IDF ladies

While I share your sentiments regarding the display of attractive female Israeli soldiers, the following should be noted:

"Queue" is a word meaning "line" (the kind in which one might wait).
"Cue" is a word meaning "prompt" or "signal". This is the word you meant to use.

"Que" means nothing in English, but (with the proper accenting) means "What?" in Spanish, which is exactly what I thought when you used it.

Enjoy the knowledge. We live to serve.

/the battle rages on
 
2008-02-04 06:40:24 AM
It's difficult to like Israel after seeing all the shiat they pull each year, but somehow the hawt IDF chicks manage to sway the caucus.
 
2008-02-04 06:46:46 AM
Haha, that has always, helped my tension.

Emphasis added by, using commas, incorrectly just as, in headline.
 
2008-02-04 06:49:16 AM
ultraholland:
Israeli soldiers you say?

Now, if they'd been the ones doing the mooning, that'd be a kind of warfare I could get behind.
 
2008-02-04 06:54:00 AM
That's no moon...

*cue Imperial march*
 
2008-02-04 06:57:38 AM
Dansker: that'd be a kind of warfare I could get behind.

Literally.
 
2008-02-04 07:02:30 AM
TappingTheVein:
And a great response by Ahmed "Fifth Column" Tibi there.


heh heh. Yeah. Don't point that ass at anybody, it might go off.
 
2008-02-04 07:15:27 AM
Summon TATSUMA!
 
2008-02-04 07:27:42 AM
Lonestar: Summon TATSUMA!

Sorta like abracadabra in these threads huh? Poof! puff of smoke, distinct smell of sulfar, fog slowly clears away, and ta-da.......
 
2008-02-04 07:39:52 AM
IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.
 
2008-02-04 07:40:05 AM
One of the parts of the article that amused me is how the "V" is labeled "a Victory sign"....

Now, while I will grant that many consider it a Victory sign, I think a many others consider it "a Peace sign"...

Now, doesn't it sort of jump the gun a bit to assume that the soldier in question was flashing a slightly more provocative "victory sign" rather than a possibly more playful "peace sign"?

Tats, why is the story written like this? It should have used a more neutral "flashed a V" or just gone with the slightly more positive "peace sign". You are going to need to control the Media Control Dept. of the International Jewish Conspiracy and get this fixed.
 
2008-02-04 07:42:10 AM
So... did Captain, Kirk, write the, headline?
 
2008-02-04 07:42:34 AM
Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

sour grapes?
 
2008-02-04 07:52:33 AM
Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

You know who else didn't like Jewish women?


Jennifer: Sorta like abracadabra in these threads huh? Poof! puff of smoke, distinct smell of sulfar, fog slowly clears away, and ta-da.......

It's spelled sulfur or sulphur incidentally.

And given the context, I would definitely point out that it 'sounds' from my point of view that you are trying to compare Tatsuma, or possibly all Jews, to Satan or at least some manner of demon/daemon/devil from a lower planar sub-dimension.

As I am sure Tatsuma can point out, this is a completely incorrect assumption, as anyone with half a brain realizes that the Jewish people come from a parallel dimension and are shapeshifters that have orchestrated the whole history of the Universe.
 
2008-02-04 08:04:37 AM
Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

All the better to smell someone like you.
 
2008-02-04 08:22:07 AM
SnoreCriminal: Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

You know who else didn't like Jewish women?


Jennifer: Sorta like abracadabra in these threads huh? Poof! puff of smoke, distinct smell of sulfar, fog slowly clears away, and ta-da.......

It's spelled sulfur or sulphur incidentally.

And given the context, I would definitely point out that it 'sounds' from my point of view that you are trying to compare Tatsuma, or possibly all Jews, to Satan or at least some manner of demon/daemon/devil from a lower planar sub-dimension.

As I am sure Tatsuma can point out, this is a completely incorrect assumption, as anyone with half a brain realizes that the Jewish people come from a parallel dimension and are shapeshifters that have orchestrated the whole history of the Universe.



Rofl, everyone knows they are descendants of the Mole People. Their ancestors were forced above ground by a mantle plume.
 
2008-02-04 08:33:23 AM
Well at least they weren't shooting journalists. That's progress.
 
2008-02-04 08:43:56 AM
swahnhennessy: Well at least they weren't shooting journalists. That's progress.

It's not journalists season.
 
2008-02-04 08:49:46 AM
SnoreCriminal: Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

You know who else didn't like Jewish women?


Jennifer: Sorta like abracadabra in these threads huh? Poof! puff of smoke, distinct smell of sulfar, fog slowly clears away, and ta-da.......

It's spelled sulfur or sulphur incidentally.

And given the context, I would definitely point out that it 'sounds' from my point of view that you are trying to compare Tatsuma, or possibly all Jews, to Satan or at least some manner of demon/daemon/devil from a lower planar sub-dimension.

As I am sure Tatsuma can point out, this is a completely incorrect assumption, as anyone with half a brain realizes that the Jewish people come from a parallel dimension and are shapeshifters that have orchestrated the whole history of the Universe.


Nah..........No horned figures from the underworld or visions from Dante's inferno....Lonestar had me imagine a little wizard in a cone hat waving a wand to teleport Tatsuma to the post.....
 
2008-02-04 08:52:21 AM
Having just got back from going to Israel for free (I can hook up other farkers with that too), I have some new soldiers from when I was over there.

farm3.static.flickr.com
farm3.static.flickr.com
farm3.static.flickr.com

Yes, I have lots fun with soldiers :) Yes, I know the hat is friggin retarded looking.

Link to fullsize pictures below:
1st, 2nd , and 3rd
 
2008-02-04 08:54:04 AM
NickPappagiorgio: Jormungandr: Que pics of the hot IDF ladies

While I share your sentiments regarding the display of attractive female Israeli soldiers, the following should be noted:

"Queue" is a word meaning "line" (the kind in which one might wait).
"Cue" is a word meaning "prompt" or "signal". This is the word you meant to use.

"Que" means nothing in English, but (with the proper accenting) means "What?" in Spanish, which is exactly what I thought when you used it.

Enjoy the knowledge. We live to serve.

/the battle rages on


shiat, I think that is the longest response I've ever gotten to a one line post. You know "Queue" would work just as well. Unfortunately this is not bringing more pics.
 
2008-02-04 08:55:48 AM
ultraholland: Israeli soldiers you say?

My work here is done.


Dude, were you in israel or did you just google those pics? Our soldiers on my trip were freakin fugly.
 
2008-02-04 08:56:24 AM
*Correction*

our ARMED soldiers...the rest of them on standby were not (as seen below)
 
2008-02-04 09:00:52 AM
TappingTheVein: If you see the video it seems that 2 guys was taking a leak and one saw that he was being filmed so he flashed a V sign.

The article is very neutral and unbiased: "exposing themselves to Palestinian shepherds in order to try and make them leave an area"


This is what I came to say

Yeah that's a good idea. You want people to leave, take down your pants.

To be fair, I'm sure that if most farkers were to drop their pants in a public place, it wouldn't take long for the place to empty itself

And a great response by Ahmed "Fifth Column" Tibi there.

Well, did you really expect any better?
 
2008-02-04 09:02:51 AM
farkingatwork: Having just got back from going to Israel for free (I can hook up other farkers with that too)

Go? Israel? Free?

Newsletter?
/subscribe
 
2008-02-04 09:04:37 AM
bp0.blogger.com

Hotlinking, yeah!
 
2008-02-04 09:06:38 AM
Jennifer: Sorta like abracadabra in these threads huh? Poof! puff of smoke, distinct smell of sulfar, fog slowly clears away, and ta-da.......

Funny story, Abracadabra actually comes from the Aramaic "avra kedabra" which is roughly translated as "I create as I speak"

Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

We know, if it's not Aryan babes, you don't like it. Go back to Stormfront already.

SnoreCriminal: Tats, why is the story written like this? It should have used a more neutral "flashed a V" or just gone with the slightly more positive "peace sign". You are going to need to control the Media Control Dept. of the International Jewish Conspiracy and get this fixed.

I know, I know.

It's a very good thing we control the media, otherwise imagine how worse and biased the press would be
 
2008-02-04 09:10:04 AM
We know, if it's not Aryan babes, you don't like it. Go back to Stormfront already.

You wish, schlomo, you schlamiel.
 
2008-02-04 09:11:48 AM
It isn't made in a "peace sign" way, it looks cocky and arrogent, and as for taking a pee... maybe the one on the left, but the one on the right is shaking his ass. I don't know about you but when I take a pee, I don't need my ass hanging out to do it.
 
2008-02-04 09:11:57 AM
This is military tradition,no big thing.
Years ago I read in National Geographic about both sets of troups patroling the Mongolian/Russian border and the Mongols dropped trou to shine the Ruskies.
 
2008-02-04 09:13:37 AM
NickPappagiorgio: Jormungandr: Que pics of the hot IDF ladies

While I share your sentiments regarding the display of attractive female Israeli soldiers, the following should be noted:

"Queue" is a word meaning "line" (the kind in which one might wait).
"Cue" is a word meaning "prompt" or "signal". This is the word you meant to use.

"Que" means nothing in English, but (with the proper accenting) means "What?" in Spanish, which is exactly what I thought when you used it.

Enjoy the knowledge. We live to serve.

/the battle rages on


You win the internet.
 
2008-02-04 09:14:56 AM
megram: It isn't made in a "peace sign" way, it looks cocky and arrogent, and as for taking a pee... maybe the one on the left, but the one on the right is shaking his ass. I don't know about you but when I take a pee, I don't need my ass hanging out to do it.

Oh give me a break. When you're trying to pee and journalists start filming you, you don't react or anything?
 
2008-02-04 09:16:25 AM
Approves
www.filmreference.com
 
2008-02-04 09:17:16 AM
There was a suicide attack in Dimona killing 3 people, and they were from Al Aqsa, of "peace partner" Fatah.

Motherfarkers.
 
2008-02-04 09:22:16 AM
Bedouins inside Israel have helped smuggling the terrorists, not only them but others, and right now Palestinians are celebrating by distributing candies and dancing.

I know, let's dismantle the wall, stop the checkpoints and give these upstanding citizens a State!

And allow millions the right of return within Israel!
 
2008-02-04 09:23:54 AM
Slow news day over there? What, there were no women or children bombed or hit by rockets lately so they dig deep and find a couple soldiers hanging their asses out? I find it hard to believe that with all the death and destruction going on, anyone over there gives a shiat about a mooning and a "V" sign.
 
2008-02-04 09:24:37 AM
Aye, it worked for William Wallace it did!

FREEDOM!!

/...and haggis.
 
2008-02-04 09:25:48 AM
Fire rockets at my family and I'll annihilate your entire population.

Israel shows amazing restraint.
 
2008-02-04 09:32:43 AM
jonr: I came here for the IDF girls... this thread delivers!

does anyone else see that stain on her pant leg?
 
2008-02-04 09:33:24 AM
RockIsDead: Israel shows amazing restraint.

Yeah, it must suck to live in a place where country around you wants you dead and wiped from the plant.
They have to strike a balance between being intimidating enough to be left alone, but not aggressive enough to have the entire region declare war on them.
It probably helps that the US is swinging off of their balls.
 
2008-02-04 09:33:31 AM
img118.imageshack.us
img529.imageshack.us

"I know what its like to hear that you can't use a certain road or pass through a checkpoint because you are a Palestinian. I know what it is like to feel discriminated against and powerless."

- US Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice


Make them citizens or end the Occupation.

img181.imageshack.us
img185.imageshack.us

Click to donate.
 
2008-02-04 09:34:19 AM
farking hell. Must remember to spell check if I haven't had coffee yet.
 
2008-02-04 09:36:53 AM
Jon Snow:

How about you stop spamming that farking bullshiat from thread to thread.

It's incredibly disgusting that you'll spam this thread compairing Palestinians to victims of segregation as the blood of suicide bombing victims still hasn't been scrubbed from the floor where they were killed and maimed this MORNING and Palestinians are busy distributing candies and celebrating.

Have you no farking shame?
 
2008-02-04 09:37:51 AM
The pali's are just worried their sheep will leave them for a new love.
 
2008-02-04 09:39:25 AM
Tatsuma: Jon Snow:

How about you stop spamming that farking bullshiat from thread to thread.

It's incredibly disgusting that you'll spam this thread compairing Palestinians to victims of segregation as the blood of suicide bombing victims still hasn't been scrubbed from the floor where they were killed and maimed this MORNING and Palestinians are busy distributing candies and celebrating.

Have you no farking shame?


You have no decency, you animal.
 
2008-02-04 09:39:33 AM
Nestea Plunge: IDF women have big noses and their eyes are too close together.

It's not the face you have to fark...etc.

Besides, Jewish women have the prettiest p*ssies in the world. Go on, look it up.
 
2008-02-04 09:40:24 AM
Update: Finally, it's 1 woman dead, 1 in critical condition, 10 wounded (moderate to serious (keep in mind that losing an limb is sometimes classified as moderate), one subhuman scumbag exploded, and one subhuman scumbag shot 5 times in the head as he tried to blow himself up.

Give the Holy Jew who shot him a medal.
 
2008-02-04 09:44:30 AM
Jon Snow: Click to donate.

And I'm sure your check is alrady in the mail.

BTW....isn't that a violation of the Farq? IIRC you should buy a classifed ad for things like that.
 
2008-02-04 09:45:07 AM
SnoreCriminal:
As I am sure Tatsuma can point out, this is a completely incorrect assumption, as anyone with half a brain realizes that the Jewish people come from a parallel dimension and are shapeshifters that have orchestrated the whole history of the Universe.



... That would be so nice, wouldn't it?

/ Jew
// I can't even control my cats, let alone the universe.
/// Would make getting money easier too.
//// Had to throw in one cliché for the racist bastards of the group.
// There are too many of you.
// There are also too many of these slashes.
// Done now.
 
2008-02-04 09:45:15 AM
Tatsuma:
It's incredibly disgusting that you'll spam this thread compairing Palestinians to victims of segregation as the blood of suicide bombing victims still hasn't been scrubbed from the floor where they were killed and maimed this MORNING and Palestinians are busy distributing candies and celebrating.

Have you no farking shame?



Start treating the Palestinians like human beings. That might be a good start to ending the violence. Until that happens, what the fark do you expect?
 
2008-02-04 09:46:01 AM
Tatsuma irritates me on occasion, but I have to agree with him this time.

The first step to being allowed to integrate into a society is to stop killing members of said society. Of course, not all of them are murderers. But how would anyone propose to filter the psychotics out from among the decent ones?
And personally, I don't think many of them want integration. They want the Israelis out. Somehow, I doubt opening borders would fix that.
 
2008-02-04 09:47:00 AM
Tatsuma: Update: Finally, it's 1 woman dead, 1 in critical condition, 10 wounded (moderate to serious (keep in mind that losing an limb is sometimes classified as moderate)......



When you choose to live in a war zone, you put yourself at risk.
 
2008-02-04 09:47:09 AM
log_jammin: BTW....isn't that a violation of the Farq? IIRC you should buy a classifed ad for things like that.

It's probably the fifth time I've seen him doing that. It's definitely a violation of the FarQ based on spam.

Sammy Jenkins: Start treating the Palestinians like human beings. That might be a good start to ending the violence. Until that happens, what the fark do you expect?

How twisted and disgusting most your "morality" be when you justify the senseless killing of innocents based on that.
 
2008-02-04 09:51:33 AM
Sammy Jenkins: When you choose to live in a war zone, you put yourself at risk.

Just like when you support those who made it a war zone.

Tatsuma: It's probably the fifth time I've seen him doing that.

sounds like a violation to me then
 
2008-02-04 09:53:40 AM
If Snow's post is considered spam, we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.
 
2008-02-04 09:55:03 AM
Sammy Jenkins:
When you choose to live in a war zone, you put yourself at risk.


If they killed soldiers then, though I wouldn't support their war, I could see it as justified. Yet, they go out of their way to kill civilians, while Israel goes out of its way to kill murderers (The fact that civilians die is both because those murderers are civilians and are reported as such and because they build their bomb factories next to residential neighborhoods). For killing innocent civilians FIRST, they deserve their deaths.

If the terrorist lowered their weapons, there would be peace. If the Israelis lowered their weapons, there would be genocide. End of debate farkers.
 
2008-02-04 09:55:55 AM
swahnhennessy: If Snow's post is considered spam, we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.

If I was cut-pasting the same text over and over, you'd have a point.

But you don't, since he's just reposting images and asking for people to give money, and I'm not spamming.

log_jammin: sounds like a violation to me then

Yup
 
2008-02-04 09:56:38 AM
Tatsuma [TotalFark] Quote 2008-02-04 09:36:53 AM
Jon Snow:

How about you stop spamming that farking bullshiat from thread to thread.

It's incredibly disgusting that you'll spam this thread compairing Palestinians to victims of segregation as the blood of suicide bombing victims still hasn't been scrubbed from the floor where they were killed and maimed this MORNING and Palestinians are busy distributing candies and celebrating.

Have you no farking shame?



bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!
 
2008-02-04 09:58:04 AM
swahnhennessy: we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.

here's that straw you were grasping at.
 
2008-02-04 09:58:07 AM
If Snow's post is considered spam, we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.

At least Tatsuma mixes it up and does what he can to keep from getting too stale instead of just cutting and pasting stuff from a txt file.
 
2008-02-04 09:58:13 AM
swahnhennessy: If Snow's post is considered spam, we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.

Tired propaganda? He seems a heck of a lot better informed than 99% of the Palestinian supporters.
 
2008-02-04 10:05:25 AM
yes, free trip to israel. Just toss me an email and I'll explain. Short story of it is like this: You pay a 250$ deposit and get it back after the trip in full.
 
2008-02-04 10:06:52 AM
farkingatwork: yes, free trip to israel. Just toss me an email and I'll explain. Short story of it is like this: You pay a 250$ deposit and get it back after the trip in full.

The thing he doesn't tell you is that you have to be Jewish. Also, between the ages of 18-26. I just got back from the same trip less than a month ago, it was AMAZING.
 
2008-02-04 10:07:03 AM
Scrotar: At least Tatsuma mixes it up and does what he can to keep from getting too stale instead of just cutting and pasting stuff from a txt file.

Ah yes. Like Bevets-bot.
 
2008-02-04 10:07:41 AM
Tatsuma: There was a suicide attack in Dimona killing 3 people, and they were from Al Aqsa, of "peace partner" Fatah.

Motherfarkers.


That's what I was referring to up in the start of this thread.

I haven't seen any confirmation of Al Aqsa other than Hamas spokespeople. Hamas is doing all the talking so I doubt Fatah had anything to do with it. Right now it just appears Hamas is trying to get some Israeli love spread to the west bank and off their asses for a bit.
 
2008-02-04 10:07:56 AM
farkingatwork: yes, free trip to israel. Just toss me an email and I'll explain. Short story of it is like this: You pay a 250$ deposit and get it back after the trip in full.

Do you have any free trips to places not in the anus of the world?
 
2008-02-04 10:09:12 AM
Video of Palestinans children giving flowers and candies to passerbys, people wishing for more suicide attacks until all the Jews are killed.

Eliminate those inhuman roadblocks!! Tear down the wall!!

Mr.Zemme: The thing he doesn't tell you is that you have to be Jewish. Also, between the ages of 18-26. I just got back from the same trip less than a month ago, it was AMAZING.

Birthright trips are pretty cool, yeah
 
2008-02-04 10:10:03 AM
Tatsuma: Video of Palestinans children giving flowers and candies to passerbys, people wishing for more suicide attacks until all the Jews are killed.

You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?
 
2008-02-04 10:10:13 AM
Sammy Jenkins: Do you have any free trips to places not in the anus of the world?

Or any place we won't be killed by suicide bombers?
 
2008-02-04 10:10:58 AM
SnoreCriminal

It's called "Birthright Israel" and any Jew who hasn't been on an organized trip to Israel is eligible to go, totally free. Google it. It's open to any Jew of any background. And it really is free.
 
2008-02-04 10:11:01 AM
Nocens: That's what I was referring to up in the start of this thread.

Yeah, and I thought you were joking. You know "Jews moon Palestinians, Palestinians retaliate with suicide bombers"

I haven't seen any confirmation of Al Aqsa other than Hamas spokespeople. Hamas is doing all the talking so I doubt Fatah had anything to do with it. Right now it just appears Hamas is trying to get some Israeli love spread to the west bank and off their asses for a bit.

Al Aqsa confirmed it
 
2008-02-04 10:12:40 AM
Sammy Jenkins: You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?

Victims?

They started to kill Jews 100 years ago. They launched that Intifada.

If they want the violence to stop, that's entirely up to THEM.

You're condemning the rapist's victim for stabbing and killing her attacker and claiming that the rapist was right to do what he did since it's obvious the victim had more firepower to defend herself.
 
2008-02-04 10:13:16 AM
Sammy Jenkins: Do you have any free trips to places not in the anus of the world?

you don't like brown people or what?
 
2008-02-04 10:13:39 AM
NYU Orthodocs: SnoreCriminal

It's called "Birthright Israel" and any Jew who hasn't been on an organized trip to Israel is eligible to go, totally free. Google it. It's open to any Jew of any background. And it really is free.


Don't do it, you'll end up with a timeshare!
 
2008-02-04 10:14:17 AM
As well as the earlier injured victims, another 38 were admitted in the hospital, suffering from mostly shock, including a man who had already been present at a suicide bombing already
 
2008-02-04 10:14:53 AM
Sammy Jenkins: You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?

Call me irrational, but I don't see how blowing up random, uninvolved people can help your cause or fight back against military oppression.
 
2008-02-04 10:14:53 AM
It's hysterical to me that simple statements made in support of peace and sovereignty are called "farking bullshiat", or more ridiculously "spam".

How many threads are the same pictures of IDF girls reposted ad nauseam?

If you do not like my posts, you are free to ignore them. I am not violating the FarQ and am advocating freedom and equality. Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

img183.imageshack.us

img185.imageshack.us
Anyone can help.
 
2008-02-04 10:14:55 AM
log_jammin: you don't like brown people or what?

Jews, mostly. Like his pal Nestea.
 
2008-02-04 10:15:07 AM
Tatsuma: Sammy Jenkins: You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?

Victims?

They started to kill Jews 100 years ago. They launched that Intifada.

If they want the violence to stop, that's entirely up to THEM.

You're condemning the rapist's victim for stabbing and killing her attacker and claiming that the rapist was right to do what he did since it's obvious the victim had more firepower to defend herself.


Yup. It's everyone's fault except for the chosen people! No blame at all for you guys 'cause god likes you better than everyone else.
 
2008-02-04 10:16:05 AM
Tatsuma: As well as the earlier injured victims, another 38 were admitted in the hospital, suffering from mostly shock, including a man who had already been present at a suicide bombing already

Excuse me, but what the fark does that have to do with this thread?
 
2008-02-04 10:16:48 AM
Jon Snow: If you do not like my posts, you are free to ignore them. I am not violating the FarQ and am advocating freedom and equality. Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

Let's see

You're asking people to donate money and help "Free the Palestinians from the Israeli occupation" at the same time two of them just blew themselves up in an Israeli mall and their society is celebrating with candies and flowers.

That's why. And you're right about the ignore part.

Someone has to search his soul, here, but that's not us

Fark that, I'm off
 
2008-02-04 10:17:03 AM
Tatsuma: log_jammin: you don't like brown people or what?

Jews, mostly. Like his pal Nestea.


No, just you. I'm hoping a rocket gets shot right up your ass in your illegal Israeli squat.
 
2008-02-04 10:17:19 AM
Tatsuma: log_jammin: you don't like brown people or what?

Jews, mostly. Like his pal Nestea.


I love Jews, but Israel is full of war criminals.
 
2008-02-04 10:17:55 AM
Mr.Zemme: farkingatwork: yes, free trip to israel. Just toss me an email and I'll explain. Short story of it is like this: You pay a 250$ deposit and get it back after the trip in full.

The thing he doesn't tell you is that you have to be Jewish. Also, between the ages of 18-26. I just got back from the same trip less than a month ago, it was AMAZING.


Yep, same trip group...but you don't HAVE to be jewish...if you use your fark-snark brain of course. Also, what date did you go? I just went dec 20th-Jan 1st. Totally got farking plastered every day of the trip, some absinthe fun, some hot israelis, etc.
 
2008-02-04 10:18:40 AM
Tatsuma/b>
And allow millions the right of return within Israel!

I believe you meant Palestine. Israel is an illegal occupation of Palestine, long with the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and Golan Heights.
 
2008-02-04 10:21:16 AM
While I certainly don't condone terrorism, what I don't understand is why people don't see the Palestinian's point of view on this one. I'm not a history major, but in 1949, didn't the UN decide to start plunking millions of people onto land that was already occupied by someone else?

If a foreign power started unwanted mass immigration into my country and enforced it with military power, I'd be the first person to climb a tree with a rifle and start shooting people.

/IMHO (uneducated) Israel should never have existed in the first place.
//Now that it does, I have no idea how to solve the farking mess.
 
2008-02-04 10:23:06 AM
Sammy Jenkins: I love Jews, but Israel is full of war criminals.

and brown people
 
2008-02-04 10:23:31 AM
Sammy Jenkins:
Yup. It's everyone's fault except for the chosen people! No blame at all for you guys 'cause god likes you better than everyone else.


Oh, so that's your problem with Jews... god left you out of the loop. I'm SOOO sorry, whatever can I do to make your ego (that has been damage by a book written by PEOPLE 5000 years ago) fell not so hurt...
 
2008-02-04 10:25:02 AM
Jon Snow: Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

Thats what I was going to say about your opinion on the IDF girls
 
2008-02-04 10:25:47 AM
I'll see your IDF Moon, and raise you a Hippopotamus Moon.

i190.photobucket.com
 
2008-02-04 10:26:22 AM
Sammy Jenkins: Excuse me, but what the fark does that have to do with this thread?

Not a whole lot, but is there another thread?

It's a bigger news story than this one. Anyway, the one "seriously injured" guy at the top of the news apparently has up to 1000 shrapnel parts in his midsection, so it's likely to be two dead soon. Seems at least they got good luck in the midst of bad luck, by having the second bomber not be too smart.

Actually on topic, I think mooning deserves a reprimand as it would get pretty much everywhere ("it's unseemly!"), but 21 days in jail is over the top.

Mr.Zemme: / Jew
// I can't even control my cats, let alone the universe.


Clearly there has been a mistranslation somewhere over the years - it's the CATS that control the world. Er, at least my small part of it...
 
2008-02-04 10:26:25 AM
Wait, no one has blamed the US yet. You guys are slacking off.
 
2008-02-04 10:26:26 AM
log_jammin: Sammy Jenkins: I love Jews, but Israel is full of war criminals.

and brown people


Hey, Jesus was brown too. It's just some wack US culture that makes him magically white.
 
2008-02-04 10:29:33 AM
farkingatwork: wack US culture that makes him magically white.

eh?
 
2008-02-04 10:32:58 AM
Jon Snow: If you do not like my posts, you are free to ignore them. I am not violating the FarQ and am advocating freedom and equality. Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

I searched my soul and determined that your posts cause me anger because they advocate the liberation of suicide bombers.
 
2008-02-04 10:33:12 AM
log_jammin: Thats what I was going to say about your opinion on the IDF girls

They don't make me mad at all. Care to explain?

img206.imageshack.us
 
2008-02-04 10:33:22 AM
How many threads are the same pictures of IDF girls reposted ad nauseam?

I was thinking that your post more resembled ultraholland's posting of the same handful of hot IDF chicks everyone's seen a million times already, myself.

The difference between your post and ultraholland's being, people WANT to look at hot chicks, whereas they might not want to compare the plight of the Palestinians to that of American black people during the Civil Rights Era.

The civil rights leaders of that era didn't bomb anyone, of course. But you know- neither do most Palestinians, hence the fundamental injustice of collective punishment.

The Gaza blockade is unjust, counter productive, bad PR and possibly downright stupid. I fear that it, like the useless bombing of busloads of Israeli children, is nothing more than a twisted feel good measure that appeals to the petulant sadist that lurks inside most of us.
 
2008-02-04 10:33:48 AM
NeuroticMan: but in 1949, didn't the UN decide to start plunking millions of people onto land that was already occupied by someone else?


Actually, that's not even close to accurate. Over a hundred years ago more Jews (I say more because there were already those there, which had been there for thousands of years) started to move into the territory and buy up unwanted bogs and swamps (at exorbitantly high prices, thank you very much) in an attempt to escape the progroms (mass killings, in intent if not in scale to the holocaust) of Eastern Europe. Over the next fifty years waves of Jewish immigrants (or Aliyahs)came into the then Turkish controlled territories.

When the British won it from the Turks in the first World War they closed all Jewish immigration with their "White Papers," because they wanted to appease the local Arab populations (which had at that point already started their own forms of progroms against the 500,000 Jews in the territory.) Then comes WWII, and no country in the world will take the Jews, so 6 million of the 9 million European Jews were massacred. This prompted, before the War, a massive movement called Aliyah Bet (illegal immigration) to smuggle as many Jews out of Germany and then out of Nazi controlled Europe as possible.

Finally, two years after the end of WWII the general assembly suggested a two state solution (one that gave Israel a third of their current territory) for the area. The Arabs rejected it, like every time two states is suggested, and the Israelis accepted it. Then, when Israel declared its independence five Arab countries attacked it, and from the aftermath you have, more or less, the current situation.

Mini History Lesson
 
2008-02-04 10:34:17 AM
NeuroticMan: While I certainly don't condone terrorism, what I don't understand is why people don't see the Palestinian's point of view on this one. I'm not a history major, but in 1949, didn't the UN decide to start plunking millions of people onto land that was already occupied by someone else?

Half and half. Jews had been living in the area, and immigrating into the area for decades previous. And the Arabs and Jews had been fighting pretty much the whole time as well. In the 20's Britain was mandated to calm down Palestine in preparation for a Jewish state, and there was a mass exodus from Germany in the 1940's, for obvious reasons, which lead to the official formation of the country in '48(?) It's not nearly as black and white as both sides would like us all to believe.
 
2008-02-04 10:35:30 AM
log_jammin: Sammy Jenkins: I love Jews, but Israel is full of war criminals.

and brown people


Wow. There's some really thoughtful discussion going on here.
 
2008-02-04 10:36:28 AM
Free trip to Isreal? Will they issue me a FN-FAL to tote? (aka romat)
 
2008-02-04 10:36:48 AM
Mr.Zemme: Mini History Lesson

...And knowing is half the battle!

/Thanks!
 
2008-02-04 10:37:18 AM
ReverendJasen: Wait, no one has blamed the US yet. You guys are slacking off.

You know if the Palestinians didn't play that whacky suicide bomber game on their xbox 360s non of this would have happened.
 
2008-02-04 10:37:35 AM
I would post links to the real incidents of Israeli soldiers raising tensions (shooting little boys, old men, leveling the homes of civilians,) but the US government has finally managed to cut my access to Al Jazeera with those cable cuts.
 
2008-02-04 10:38:04 AM
The Palestinians get treated like wild dogs. The Israelis get treated like a disease. And yet people seem continually stunned there seems to be no solution.

Someone's going to have to get off the hate-train to murder town eventually. It's probably silly, but I'm sort of hoping for both sides to attain nuclear capability - because for some reason the idea of "both sides become wisps of subatomic particles in a full-force nuclear exchange" seems to force a reevaluation of any conflict. It's certainly moderated the Indian/Pakistani war in some contexts, which I don't think anyone honestly predicted.

All I know is, the killing there will never stop as long as the fatal consequences are deemed "acceptable" by either side. Which means it won't stop - not in my lifetime, not in your lifetime, not in the lives of a dozen generations, without something ridiculously drastic forcing both groups onto the same side of self-preservation somehow. Maybe an alien invasion or something. You'd be surprised how many international disputes wind up solved by the appearance of a common enemy.

/Yeah, don't mind me - sleep-deprived rambling.
//But aliens invading the Middle East might make for a good sci-fi story.
 
2008-02-04 10:38:19 AM
Jon Snow: They don't make me mad at all. Care to explain?

I'm not going to explain your own post to you.
 
2008-02-04 10:39:20 AM
Am I the only one who thinks its kind of farked up that we use Tatsuma as some kind of posterboy for the Israeli system?

I mean, everytime one of these threads show up, someone has to make reference to this character as some sort of expert on the subject.

At the same time, people like jon snow or czarangelus become an archetype for everything that is in polar opposition to whatever Tatsuma might say.

Its just leading to people taking one side or the other. Either you think Tatsuma is some sort of Israeli Foreign Policy Expert, or an Asshole. Alternatively, Jon Snow/Czar are either dirty skank hippies, or compassionate individuals.

There is no middle ground in these threads anymore. Its one side or the other with too much flame baiting in between.

Can we not have a normal talk about any of this without it getting full of retarded rants and internet tough guys?

Both sides have something to say. The answer is probably somewhere in the middle.
 
2008-02-04 10:39:24 AM
farkingatwork: Hey, Jesus was brown too. It's just some wack US culture that makes him magically white.

Er, no, that was instigated by the Catholic Europeans, centuries ago. He has since gotten lighter and lighter as the years pass though.
Give him another 100 years, and he'll be a blonde, blue-eyed Nord.
 
2008-02-04 10:40:23 AM
No punctuation Natzi has commented on the headline yet?
 
2008-02-04 10:40:55 AM
OceansideIdaho: swahnhennessy: If Snow's post is considered spam, we need also consider the tired propaganda Tatsuma spews in every thread with a mention of Israel to be spam, as well.

Tired propaganda? He seems a heck of a lot better informed than 99% of the Palestinian supporters.


We have a winner.

Yes, the Pro-Pal 101st Fighting Keyboarders, aka Electronic Intifada, are a seriously delusional bunch. At least the actual Palestinian terrorists1 make no bones about it - they hate Jews, they admit they hate Jews and want to kill them all. And they try.

But the defenders of those same groups, as well as the political/propaganda wings of organizations like Fatah, Hamas, Hezbollah and others spin it and show only the suffering of the women and children, the innocents mauled, wounded, blinded and crippled by Israel.

Unfortunately they tend to gloss over the part where those innocents were wounded because Hamas or some other group stormed into their house, held their family at gunpoint and then started using their house as a missile launching platform. Or when those "innocents" volunteer to have their house turned into a firebase or arms depot.

Then of course there is the highly informative and educational Palestinian children's television shows that teach young Palestinian boys and girls how to be good little martyrs.

Relating to the above of course is "Pallywood" which essentially does nothing but creates situations which will make Israel look bad. Those movies, the ones showing some poor old woman weeping over her fallen son or some other heart-string tugging moment, are then carefully edited and placed in a context that the viewer can only draw one conclusion: that Israel is evil and murders innocent civilians for fun.

This garbage is then packaged and shipped off to the US, to groups like ANSWER and HRW2. They in turn distribute it to their fanbase3 of anarchists and bleeding-hearts, most of whom are spoiled rich kids looking to play revolutionary because daddy is a republican and doesn't love them enough.

Then actual anti-Semitsm comes into play at various stages along the way, some of the support that is found in the US comes from people who do have an actual agenda against the Jewish people. So they further spin the issue and wrap up more people into the sea of propaganda.

So, in summation, most of the people who are "Pro-Palestinian" are either willfully ignorant of the situation and use the issue to further their own anti-Semitic goals or are actually ignorant and have been duped into supporting terrorists for some half understood and vague notion of peace.

Footnotes:
1 When I say Palestinian terrorists, I mean the Palestinians who are, in fact, terrorists. In other words, they actively belong to a terror group, pay their union dues, have the dental plan, etc. I am not saying all Palestinians are terrorists.
2 I am not saying HRW is actively anti-Israeli or anti-Semitic, simply that they are a useful tool to the Pallywood engine. They are essntially idealists and it would be nice if we could live in a world where everyone was committed to peace. Unfortunately, we don't. I am saying ANSWER is actively anti-Israeli and, in my experience with them, actively anti-Semitic as well. They are basically HAMAS' American pollitical wing.
3 To be fair, there are many good people who care about the plight of the Palestinians. They have their hearts in the right place but they really don't think the issue through. A good portion though are, as I say above, spoiled brats who want to get back at mommy and daddy.
 
2008-02-04 10:41:12 AM
cyber_slacker: Wow. There's some really thoughtful discussion going on here.

your meter needs fixed
 
2008-02-04 10:44:15 AM
czarangelus: ...but the US government has finally managed to cut my access to Al Jazeera with those cable cuts.
Ah yes, Al-Jazeera, THE source for fair and balanced views on those murderous, baby-eating Jews that control the media in all western countries.
That's like researching Democratic candidates by reading about them on the GOP website.
 
2008-02-04 10:44:53 AM
SnoreCriminal: Yes, the Pro-Pal 101st Fighting Keyboarders, aka Electronic Intifada, are a seriously delusional bunch. At least the actual Palestinian terrorists1 make no bones about it - they hate Jews, they admit they hate Jews and want to kill them all. And they try.

Directly contradicted by the Der Spiegel article the other day. Palestinians are also svine and roaches, correct? I mean, only svine would want to purge the whole world of one particular race of people. Palestinians don't exist anyway, right?

SnoreCriminal: So, in summation, most of the people who are "Pro-Palestinian" are either willfully ignorant of the situation and use the issue to further their own anti-Semitic goals or are actually ignorant and have been duped into supporting terrorists for some half understood and vague notion of peace.

I would say this characterizes your support for the Israeli junta perfectly.
 
2008-02-04 10:44:55 AM
Jon Snow: Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

Good point. It's the occupation that's causing all this. I wish people like Tatsuma would come to grips with this fact. And we know this is true because, before 1967, there was zero -- I'm talking zippy -- murderous attacks on Israelis. Nope, before Independence and before the Six-Day War, it was all hugs and cherries from the Arabs.

What -- that's not quite right?

Well, consider this: time and again in peace talks the Israelis have provoked the Arabs by insisting on things like the "right not to be annihilated." Can you believe it? I haven't seen such Jewish belligerence since they launched those "pogroms of aggression" toward their Eastern European victims.
 
2008-02-04 10:46:02 AM
ReverendJasen: Ah yes, Al-Jazeera, THE source for fair and balanced views on those murderous, baby-eating Jews that control the media in all western countries.

Do you actually read Al Jazeera? Then shut the Hell up about it. Either put up and inform yourself or fark off, but I'm damn sick of the peanut gallery repeating ignorant comments they heard first from Fox News. Al Jazeera is, give or take, the CNN of Qatar.
 
2008-02-04 10:47:53 AM
I second the idea that the Palestinians should be made full citizens. However, they Palestinian "government" wants no such thing. They want their own land. Which has been offered, and then declined, and ultimately revoked.

If they can't learn to live together, then Israel will continue to kill every man, woman and child within 100' of a terrorist, and the Palestinian terrorists will continue to lob missiles and bombs into Israel...and mob Egypt.

Grow up guys! Israel is heavy-handed but not wrong. The Palestinians are wrong, but justifiably angry. However, they just can't admit that they are wrong. If they did...this would be solved pretty damned quick.
 
2008-02-04 10:48:08 AM
speaking of the civil rights watergun analogy:

I wonder how much progress blacks would have made in america if they started firebombing buses and cafes and things like that.

I bet a lot of americans would have take a lot longer to just give peace a chance.
 
2008-02-04 10:48:26 AM
Dynascape: At the same time, people like jon snow or czarangelus become an archetype for everything that is in polar opposition to whatever Tatsuma might say.

I have never defended terrorism, and I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty. If that is in "polar opposition" to what someone else wants or advocates, that is unfortunate.
 
2008-02-04 10:50:06 AM
Tatsuma: Bedouins inside Israel have helped smuggling the terrorists, not only them but others, and right now Palestinians are celebrating by distributing candies and dancing.

I know, let's dismantle the wall, stop the checkpoints and give these upstanding citizens a State!

And allow millions the right of return within Israel!



No no, Israel must strike back with bombs immediately. We've come too far to allow the cycle of violence to end now.
 
2008-02-04 10:53:08 AM
czarangelus:
Do you actually read Al Jazeera? Then shut the Hell up about it. Either put up and inform yourself or fark off, but I'm damn sick of the peanut gallery repeating ignorant comments they heard first from Fox News. Al Jazeera is, give or take, the CNN of Qatar.

Yes, Muhammed, I have read it on occasion. And the blatant anti-jew, anti-West spin they put on pretty much any story concerning either of those topics. They're more like the Fox news of the middle east. Except they don't attempt to hide their contempt. I don't trust any media outlet anymore, but some are much worse than others. And if you actually believe what any of them are telling you, you're a tad gullible.
 
2008-02-04 10:55:31 AM
Jon Snow: I have never defended terrorism, and I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty.

you're right my friend. and the easist way to achieve that is an immediat end of attacks against Israel so talks can begin.

I knew we could find common ground.
 
2008-02-04 10:57:10 AM
ReverendJasen: Yes, Muhammed, I have read it on occasion.

Whatever, Bubba Bob Sisterfarker Jones.

ReverendJasen: And the blatant anti-jew, anti-West spin they put on pretty much any story concerning either of those topics

Challenge: Find one anti-Semitic article on Al Jazeera. Post.

ReverendJasen: They're more like the Fox news of the middle east. Except they don't attempt to hide their contempt.

1) Fox News hides their contempt?
2) Al-Jazeera being anti-semitic is a complete and utter myth.

ReverendJasen: And if you actually believe what any of them are telling you, you're a tad gullible.

Why yes. If I believe there's election violence that's claimed over 800 lives in Kenya, I'm an idiot! If I think Al-Jazeera isn't completely fabricating their on-the-ground interviews with rebels in Sudan, I'm a moron! And the articles on the Tamil insurgency are made up from the get go: everyone knows the island of Sri Lanka hasn't seen a single bombing in the past forty years. That's some clever criticism there, Bubba.
 
2008-02-04 11:03:51 AM
czarangelus: Why yes. If I believe there's election violence that's claimed over 800 lives in Kenya, I'm an idiot!

Let's ask Hamas to solve the Kenyan violence.
 
2008-02-04 11:04:17 AM
Where is Serious Cat when you need him? What would D-g do?
 
2008-02-04 11:05:17 AM
Let's count how many times Tatsuma can use the word "subhuman" in reference to a Palestinian. Suicide bomber or not, they are still humans.

/Do you know who else called people subhumans?
 
2008-02-04 11:05:44 AM
czarangelus:
Directly contradicted by the Der Spiegel article the other day. Palestinians are also svine and roaches, correct? I mean, only svine would want to purge the whole world of one particular race of people. Palestinians don't exist anyway, right?


And you czar, of course, perfectly represent the spoiled little children who play revolutionary to get back at mommy and daddy. Clearly that education didn't teach you how to read did it? I specifically said that it was not indicative of all Palestinians, unfortunately your head is so far up your own ass that you can't comprehend that. All you can see is "ZOMG defending evil Israel! BLARGLE BLARGLE!!!" and you make up whatever arguement you want. Take your strawman, light it on fire and cram it, dhimmi.

I would say this characterizes your support for the Israeli junta perfectly.

Oh so now the legitimately elected government of Israel is a junta?

Could you please tell me which military commander rules Israel with an iron fist?

Once again you demonstrate your astounding ignorance and willfull misrepresentation of the facts.
 
2008-02-04 11:06:37 AM
fenrael23: Do you know who else called people subhumans?

Xenu?
 
2008-02-04 11:07:06 AM
I just want to say two things, TWO THINGS:

1.) The V sign started out as being V fir Victory and was popularized as such by Winston Churchill during WWII. It was later co-opted by the hippy movement as the peace sign.

2.) The Palestinian state did not exist until the 60's. Until then the area had been divided up between Egypt, Jordan, Isreal, and Syria.

Thats all I want to say, anyone who doesn't like what I say either please read some history books or disagree with me politely. However I am not supporting or disputing anyone with these statements, these are merely a couple facts pertinent to the article and the discussion at hand that are either relatively unknown or ignored.
 
2008-02-04 11:09:12 AM
NeuroticMan: I'm not a history major, but in 1949, didn't the UN decide to start plunking millions of people onto land that was already occupied by someone else?

The land was already owned by Jewish people, who had bought it from Syrian landowners in an attempt to return to their ancestral homeland after World War II. The UN decree made it a nation instead of a land holding, but it wasn't "stolen" from anyone by the people who wound up in Israel. You might could argue, maybe, that the Syrians sold land that wasn't theirs to sell - but then why aren't the Palestinians screaming about Syria owing them a country?

This doesn't in any way count other areas seized afterwards... but Israel didn't just show up there one day. There was no "Palestine" that they took over - there was one that was intended to be created in the same UN agreements that formed Israel, but the Palestinians rejected it by following the calls for jihad (and honestly, they probably did it for what seemed like a good reason at the time - the division was not very well thought out or executed by the United Nations). I agree that there should probably be one made, because the Palestinians are still almost entirely a refugee society in other nations (as those other nations want them to be, in some cases), but they didn't have a nation stolen out from underneath their feet. It's propaganda.

Now that doesn't make Israel blameless. They have their own problems to answer to - land seizure, refusal to resettle Palestinian refugees, and so on and so forth. Regardless of the reasoning, and it probably made sense at the time, it exacerbated the situation by creating a permanent class of disaffected expatriot refugees able to be manipulated into violence by their "gracious hosts" in other countries. The Palestinian refugee camps were and are fertile breeding ground for radicalization because they are filled with desperate people who have little hope for escape or achievement. In some cases, the best thing you can do to help you family there is blow yourself up and get some other nation to pay your family for your "sacrifice." The Palestinians have been essentially turned into the Muslim world's cannon fodder.

But the Isrealis didn't just land on the shores and go "Mine now" to bring that situation about. That's ridiculous.
 
2008-02-04 11:09:53 AM
Fourth Middle Eastern internet cable sliced by mysterious boat anchor

SnoreCriminal: All you can see is "ZOMG defending evil Israel! BLARGLE BLARGLE!!!" and you make up whatever arguement you want.

Because firing a Hellfire missile into a crowded street is evil, and anyone who defends it is evil. It's just as evil as the suicide bombing that happened in Dimonia this morning. However, you refuse to morally equivocate - everything the Zionists do is okay because they're targeting terrorists.

SnoreCriminal: Oh so now the legitimately elected government of Israel is a junta?

Yes. Junta doesn't refer to a style of elections, it refers to a style of governance.

SnoreCriminal: Could you please tell me which military commander rules Israel with an iron fist?

It's a matter of which military commander rules Gaza with an iron fist, and that obviously isn't Hamas. Hamas can't protect their own backyard from Israeli missiles.
 
2008-02-04 11:10:57 AM
fenrael23: Suicide bomber or not, they are still humans.

A successful suicide bomber isn't human. He's goo.
 
2008-02-04 11:12:58 AM
If they were hot female IDF soldiers, then I'm sure it would increase the sexual tension.

:)
 
2008-02-04 11:15:02 AM
"mysterious boat anchor"

ZOIKS! Looks like we got us a mystery to solve gang!
 
2008-02-04 11:16:11 AM
To be fair to Al-Jazeera, they are pretty fair.

Now as naturally as swimming comes to a fish, duplicity comes to czarangelus. Al Jazeera *itself* is neither anti-semitic, nor anti-Israeli, nor anti-anything really. However, they do present all sides of the discussions, which means anti-semitic stuff sometimes. Frequently anti-western points of view. However, they do give all sides a chance to have their say.

Al Jazeera, I would say is one of the better networks in the world. Unfortunately, since they let everyone have their fair say... you tend to hear a lot of bad stuff. Also, they tend to favor the Arabic side of things, since, well, you don't really want to tell your fanbase they are a bunch of jackasses.

This is a reasonably good article about Al Jazeera (new window).
 
2008-02-04 11:16:16 AM
log_jammin: "mysterious boat anchor"

ZOIKS! Looks like we got us a mystery to solve gang!


Sounds better than "aliens did it"
 
2008-02-04 11:19:51 AM
Dynascape: There is no middle ground in these threads anymore. It's one side or the other with too much flame baiting in between.

FTFY
 
2008-02-04 11:20:13 AM
ReverendJasen: gatwork: Hey, Jesus was brown too. It's just some wack US culture that makes him magically white.

Er, no, that was instigated by the Catholic Europeans, centuries ago. He has since gotten lighter and lighter as the years pass though.
Give him another 100 years, and he'll be a blonde, blue-eyed Nord.


Yes, thank you for understanding what I meant, and I think not many people actually realize just how much Jesus would have looked like a modern day Osama (OH MY GOD THE CHILDREN). I thought it was US culture that perpetuated it though, as I always saw them believing that jesus is white...reminds me of the boondocks episode.
 
2008-02-04 11:20:55 AM
SnoreCriminal: farkingatwork: Having just got back from going to Israel for free (I can hook up other farkers with that too)

Go? Israel? Free?

Newsletter?
/subscribe


Ready to fly El Al? I bet you'll sleep most of the way.
 
2008-02-04 11:23:07 AM
farkingatwork: Yes, thank you for understanding what I meant, and I think not many people actually realize just how much Jesus would have looked like a modern day Osama

I saw that Special. He looked like a very tan Robin Williams with short hair. Nanu, nanu!
 
2008-02-04 11:23:18 AM
SnoreCriminal: Al Jazeera, I would say is one of the better networks in the world. Unfortunately, since they let everyone have their fair say... you tend to hear a lot of bad stuff. Also, they tend to favor the Arabic side of things, since, well, you don't really want to tell your fanbase they are a bunch of jackasses.

This is a reasonably good article about Al Jazeera (new window).


That was an interesting article. Well, Al-Jazeera is, ironically, probably the most pro-Western media outlet run by Arabs. People don't seem to realize "the Muslim world" is not a coherent bloc, and that Al-Jazeera represents the bias of their pro-Western Qatari government as much as anything.
 
2008-02-04 11:23:41 AM
Jon Snow: Dynascape: At the same time, people like jon snow or czarangelus become an archetype for everything that is in polar opposition to whatever Tatsuma might say.

I have never defended terrorism, and I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty. If that is in "polar opposition" to what someone else wants or advocates, that is unfortunate.


Im not saying I dont agree with you.

My point is that these threads have turned away from logical discoruse and intead turned into some "Tatsuma vs Jon vs Czar" flamewar hell.

Just wish people could stop saying "Bring tatsuma here!" as if we have no idea what he's going to say. Same goes with Czar. We know his general angle, its not necessary to flame away to make his point nullified.
 
2008-02-04 11:26:03 AM
Dynascape: Just wish people could stop saying "Bring tatsuma here!" as if we have no idea what he's going to say. Same goes with Czar. We know his general angle, its not necessary to flame away to make his point nullified.

/Exactly.
//THIS.
///Correctamundo.
////QFT and all that jazz.
 
2008-02-04 11:26:12 AM
I_C_Weener: Sounds better than "aliens did it"

"mysterious" aliens maybe?
 
2008-02-04 11:27:13 AM
I've got it. I think I've solved the Middle East problem.

Here is what we do. We manufacture enough sword for all of Israel and Palestine and the rest. Then we hand them out to all those folk.

At this point, we get that actor who played the Kurgan in Highlander, to talk to them. His speech must mention, at least three times, that "there can be only one!"

Then, once he works them into a frenzy, we step back and watch the interaction. Perhaps sell the broadcast rights.
 
2008-02-04 11:29:39 AM
I_C_Weener: Here is what we do. We manufacture enough sword for all of Israel and Palestine and the rest. Then we hand them out to all those folk.

That's what we're already doing, except for the part of giving it to the Palestinians too. But without American taxpayer dollars, American R&D, and American resupply ships - Israel would not be able to continue its current foreign policy. They were taking in emergency shipments of American cluster bombs at the end of the '06 Lebanon War.
 
2008-02-04 11:33:18 AM
czarangelus: except for the part of giving it to the Palestinians too.

The US may not be, but the Palestinians get plenty of outside help when it comes to blowing stuff up.
 
2008-02-04 11:34:28 AM
Followup: Journalist Sy Hersh confirms that Syrian "reactor" bombed by Israel was not a nuclear target. Too bad Assad was too big of a pussy to bomb Israel back after that incident. Made him look weak and cowardly, which he is.
 
2008-02-04 11:37:22 AM
czarangelus:

Are you still on about the internet thing?

Are you seriously so delusional as to think it was Israel that cut the internet to the Mideast?

Why would they do it? Give me a motive.
Wouldn't Israel realise that "mysteriously cutting the internet" *might* cause their neighboring nations to attack them? Given that any time someone within 5,000 miles of Israel so much as sneezes they blame the IDF.


On to your other "points"....

How often does Israel fire a Hellfire into a crowded street? Why does Israel do it? What is their motive? What gain do they make? Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

Yes, junta does refer to a specific type of governance. It is rule by a military strongman or committee of military strongmen. Define: Junta (new window); you claim Israel is a junta, I have proven it is not, yet you still protest that somehow, by some bizarre bending of reality you right, so, you are not just a dhimmi, but a delusional dhimmi at that.

I wasn't aware Israel had moved in and occupied Gaza now. You may want to alert the new channels to that, especially Al Jazeera, I think they would like to let people know about this development.

Also, what did this new Israeli occupier do with HAMAS, which, by all accounts, outside of your delusional view of the universe, are the ones who rule Gaza....
 
2008-02-04 11:39:30 AM
czarangelus: Followup: Too bad Assad was too big of a pussy to bomb Israel back after that incident. Made him look weak and cowardly, which he is.

Yeah cuz the right thing to do would have been to explode a bus full of women & children right????

/I wish you could step outside yourself and read what you write sometimes.
 
2008-02-04 11:40:37 AM
Well I see that the trolls have ruined a perfectly good IDF girls thread.
 
2008-02-04 11:41:41 AM
SnoreCriminal: Are you seriously so delusional as to think it was Israel that cut the internet to the Mideast?

Why would they do it? Give me a motive.


Not necessarily Israel itself, but definitely the Zionist/Neo-Con cabal. The obvious motive is to try to cut off communications in the ME in prelude to a major offensive. Or perhaps they are trying to damage the ME economy and threaten Iran's Euro-based oil bourse. Or maybe they're tapping the lines. Whatever the exact reasoning, I think only the Zionist/Neo-Con cabal has the kind of power to do this. It definitely isn't Al-Queda.

SnoreCriminal: How often does Israel fire a Hellfire into a crowded street? Why does Israel do it? What is their motive? What gain do they make? Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

Too often, and the motive doesn't matter. Results matter. Intentions do not.

SnoreCriminal: Also, what did this new Israeli occupier do with HAMAS, which, by all accounts, outside of your delusional view of the universe, are the ones who rule Gaza....

How does Hamas rule if they do not control the border, no foreign power will negotiate with them, they have no ability to protect the people of Gaza from constant air strikes and blockades? Is that really "ruling" a territory?
 
2008-02-04 11:42:35 AM
JDAT: Yeah cuz the right thing to do would have been to explode a bus full of women & children right????

Israel attacks a Syrian missile depot, so Syria should attack an Israeli missile depot. Anything less is surrender, capitulation, and collaboration with the deaths of your own military men.
 
2008-02-04 11:43:53 AM
czarangelus: But without American taxpayer dollars, American R&D, and American resupply ships - Israel would not be able to continue its current foreign policy.

We give the Israelis military support because, ironically, that makes them less violent. A laser-guided missile has less collateral damage than conventional "dumb" munitions, and when they choose to respond they will respond with something more explosive than a shake of the head and an "oh, you silly miscreants." The alternative to precision weaponry is lots and lots of conventional weaponry applied to an area in the hopes of hitting the desired area. Would you rather have them respond with a missile or a tank battalion? I assure you, there are plenty of former Soviet satellite states willing to sell their leftover military wares to whoever wants to buy them - the Israelis are not going to be wanting for munitions.

Conversely, if America takes Israel off the leash, and cuts off their American support, I can almost guarantee you that they'll react with an offensive intended to remove the ability of the surrounding nations to attempt a "do-over" of the Seven Day War. Because they'll believe, probably correctly, that the surrounding nations will see it as an opportunity to move. Either way, it means open warfare - which we are trying to avoid. Especially since Israel could easily topple the ability for a border country to maintain self-governance, creating a repeat of the Palestinian refugee and Afghani warlord disasters. There's enough Middle East turmoil as-is.
 
2008-02-04 11:45:56 AM
Mr.Zemme Quote 2008-02-04 10:06:52 AM
farkingatwork: yes, free trip to israel. Just toss me an email and I'll explain. Short story of it is like this: You pay a 250$ deposit and get it back after the trip in full.

The thing he doesn't tell you is that you have to be Jewish. Also, between the ages of 18-26. I just got back from the same trip less than a month ago, it was AMAZING.


I've wanted to go to Israel for as long as I can remember. I think that is an awesome program, and I'd almost convert just to go ;) Would be hard to get under that age again though...

Mayhaps I'll just send myself some time.
 
2008-02-04 11:49:28 AM
czarangelus: Too bad Assad was too big of a pussy to bomb Israel back after that incident. Made him look weak and cowardly, which he is.

czarangelus: Israel attacks a Syrian missile depot, so Syria should attack an Israeli missile depot. Anything less is surrender, capitulation, and collaboration with the deaths of your own military men.

Are you cheering for open war in the Mid-East? Because that already happened once. It caused major lasting problems, not the least of which was the creation of a permanent class of refugees, and Israel won it. You are talking about a country which has nukes, and countries which have access to chemical and biological agents. You really want this to go hot?

Of course you don't. So why the cheerleading?
 
2008-02-04 11:50:45 AM
SnoreCriminal: czarangelus:

Are you still on about the internet thing?


One cable cut is no big deal. Three cables cut in just as many weeks is downright farking scary.
 
2008-02-04 11:52:32 AM
czarangelus: Israel attacks a Syrian missile depot, so Syria should attack an Israeli missile depot. Anything less is surrender, capitulation, and collaboration with the deaths of your own military men.

So when Israel responds with a military attack it's OK? After all, anything less is surrender.
 
2008-02-04 11:52:44 AM
Drakkenmaw: Are you cheering for open war in the Mid-East?

No, Israel is. Why should Israel be allowed to bomb random Syrian facilities and kill Syrian soldiers in Syrian territory with no consequences? Where does Israel's moral authority end in your world - when every last Arab soldier is dead?

Drakkenmaw: You really want this to go hot?

Of course you don't. So why the cheerleading?


Because Assad disrespected the Syrian Army by not responding to an Israeli attack.
 
2008-02-04 11:56:35 AM
i know the old "if it wasn't for the us, israel would attack / would be unstoppable" hypotheticals sound good, but they are pretty dodgy

in reality, it is very likely that other regional powers would get together, and more importantly, other major world powers would either side with regional powers against israel, or with israel to take on the other regional powers, which latter case would cause america to act against israel

without american support, i would suggest that israel would be, at best, only marginally less vulnerable than any other country in the region
 
2008-02-04 11:57:57 AM
czarangelus: Because Assad disrespected the Syrian Army by not responding to an Israeli attack.

and I thought the glass parking lot people were ignorant, but you want to start a war over gettin dis'ed
 
2008-02-04 11:59:01 AM
what are you on about, czarangelus?

are you trying to ape tatsuma, only wrt syria, or something?
 
2008-02-04 11:59:16 AM
czarangelus: Followup: Journalist Sy Hersh confirms that Syrian "reactor" bombed by Israel was not a nuclear target. Too bad Assad was too big of a pussy to bomb Israel back after that incident.

Just because Syria's military facility wasn'tnooclear -- which, in fact, we don't know -- it doesn't follow that Israel acted inappropriately. The target could have been, for example, a chemical weapon facility, as has also been reported.

Also, if Syria struck back, the consequence would've been a lot of deaths on both sides. It might have been a rehash of the 2006 Lebanon War, but deadlier. Why would you want such a thing? Many Israelis would have been killed, and Israel, in turn, might have flattened Damascus. Whatever your take on the Arab-Israeli conflict, it strikes me as mistaken to condemn Assad for not causing that level of carnage.

Even though I'm loathe to defend Assad, and even though I wouldn't in principle be opposed to the Israeli liberation of Syrian-occupied Damascus, I think Assad's decision not to escalate was a good thing.
 
2008-02-04 11:59:39 AM
log_jammin: and I thought the glass parking lot people were ignorant, but you want to start a war over gettin dis'ed

If Saudi Arabia bombed a US base, you would demand war. But if Israel bombs a Syrian base, it's ho-hum business as usual. What Assad proved is that he believes the purpose of the Syrian Army is to prop up his regime, instead of defending Syrian from an enemy who launched a air strike attack without any provocation.
 
2008-02-04 12:01:38 PM
czarangelus: SnoreCriminal: Are you seriously so delusional as to think it was Israel that cut the internet to the Mideast?

Why would they do it? Give me a motive.

Not necessarily Israel itself, but definitely the Zionist/Neo-Con cabal. The obvious motive is to try to cut off communications in the ME in prelude to a major offensive. Or perhaps they are trying to damage the ME economy and threaten Iran's Euro-based oil bourse. Or maybe they're tapping the lines. Whatever the exact reasoning, I think only the Zionist/Neo-Con cabal has the kind of power to do this. It definitely isn't Al-Queda.


What about Quds? Or other agents provocateur? Exactly how much power does this secret evil cabal have? Now which is it; are they pursing their fingers in the shadows cackling maniacally or are they bombing the internet?

Do you actually have any idea how the world really works? Wouldn't everyone in charge in the MiddleEast make the exact same knee-jerk reaction as you? Something bad happened in the MidEast - Israel has to be at fault somehow.

SnoreCriminal: How often does Israel fire a Hellfire into a crowded street? Why does Israel do it? What is their motive? What gain do they make? Do you have any evidence to support your claims?

Too often, and the motive doesn't matter. Results matter. Intentions do not.


You say too often, yet provide 0 evidence. Yes, results do matter. Intentions matter as well. If your house is being shot at by rocket launchers and you have a rocket launcher to shoot back, you would shoot back, wouldn't you?

Israel attacks a Syrian missile depot, so Syria should attack an Israeli missile depot. Anything less is surrender, capitulation, and collaboration with the deaths of your own military men.


Tit for tat, retaliation right, that's what you say is fair for the enemies of Israel, so it is fair for Israel yes? Now, if a bunch of civilians get in the way, or as is often the case, are "gently encouraged" by HAMAS e.g. to become martyrs.....

SnoreCriminal: Also, what did this new Israeli occupier do with HAMAS, which, by all accounts, outside of your delusional view of the universe, are the ones who rule Gaza....

How does Hamas rule if they do not control the border, no foreign power will negotiate with them, they have no ability to protect the people of Gaza from constant air strikes and blockades? Is that really "ruling" a territory?


Yes, it really is ruling the territory. All HAMAS has to do is renounce violence and stop SHOOTING FARKING MISSILES! Instead they take the money that should be feeding their citizens and use it to fund more violence. I'm sorry citizens of Gaza, you lie down with dogs, you get fleas. There is no Israeli commander sitting in Gaza City with a gun to a HAMAS leader's head ordering him to shoot rockets at Israel. HAMAS does that all on their own.

czarangelus: JDAT: Yeah cuz the right thing to do would have been to explode a bus full of women & children right????

Israel attacks a Syrian missile depot, so Syria should attack an Israeli missile depot. Anything less is surrender, capitulation, and collaboration with the deaths of your own military men.


You are now upgraded to Hypocrite status. You demand that Syria kill as many Jews as it can, but when Israel has the temerity to retaliate for the attacks they receive they are evil.
 
2008-02-04 12:01:56 PM
Smirkles: Even though I'm loathe to defend Assad, and even though I wouldn't in principle be opposed to the Israeli liberation of Syrian-occupied Damascus

I'll bet they get greeted as liberators. *snort*
 
2008-02-04 12:03:30 PM
Mr.Zemme: / Jew
// I can't even control my cats, let alone the universe.


As a cat owner, I think the universe would be a lot easier.

www.allfreegreetingcards.com
 
2008-02-04 12:04:05 PM
Drant: One cable cut is no big deal. Three cables cut in just as many weeks is downright farking scary.

There were 4.
 
2008-02-04 12:06:47 PM
No Such Agency: Mr.Zemme: / Jew
// I can't even control my cats, let alone the universe.

As a cat owner, I think the universe would be a lot easier.


Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.
 
2008-02-04 12:07:05 PM
czarangelus: Where does Israel's moral authority end in your world - when every last Arab soldier is dead?

No nation has moral authority in my world. Nation-states, like all corporate entities, behave like sociopaths - devoid of emotional understanding and the ability to view things from the other side's point of view. They kill, and take, and never blink an eye... because they aren't people, they're abstract concepts. An idea has no conscience.

In the absence of some fictitious standard of "the morally righteous state," all you can do is try to make sure nothing goes too pear-shaped and the flare-ups get contained. I have nothing against the Palestinians - it's a horrible set of circumstances they were thrust into, and I can understand the overpowering desire to find some external force to point to and say "if we can just beat them, everything will be okay." It's probably the only hope they have. I also have nothing against the Israelis either - they're just trying to muddle through the task of survival in a hostile world, however they think is best, and they've made many a mistake in doing so. I don't think the problems of the two will ever be solved, but they aren't bad people. They're just people.

In the long run, we're all just people here.
 
2008-02-04 12:07:39 PM
czarangelus: What Assad proved is that he believes the purpose of the Syrian Army is to prop up his regime

ya think?
 
2008-02-04 12:08:01 PM
czarangelus: Because Assad disrespected the Syrian Army by not responding to an Israeli attack.

Awww did the Sywian awmy get its widdle feewings huwt?


you make it soo easy to hate you.
 
2008-02-04 12:08:04 PM
SnoreCriminal: What about Quds? Or other agents provocateur? Exactly how much power does this secret evil cabal have?

Iran would cut off its own economic and communications lifeline? That's irrational.

SnoreCriminal: You say too often, yet provide 0 evidence.

If you kill a Palestinian boy's father, he will grow up hating Israel. It does not matter if his father was a civilian bystander collateral damage. It doesn't matter if he was a Hamas police officer. It doesn't matter if he was an Islamic Jihad terrorist. The intent doesn't matter to the little boy who grows up without a father, and he will never forgive the loss.

SnoreCriminal: You are now upgraded to Hypocrite status. You demand that Syria kill as many Jews as it can, but when Israel has the temerity to retaliate for the attacks they receive they are evil.

So in your world, Israel should be permitted to attack other countries' military bases without any consequence. Is that what you're saying? I mean, why not just have Israel bomb all the bases in Syria, since you deny Syria the ability to defend themselves?
 
2008-02-04 12:10:50 PM
altinos: There were 4.

There were three. One was simply an outage, which was reported as a "disruption" and was mistakenly re-reported as a cable cut. The line was back functioning within the day.
 
2008-02-04 12:11:24 PM
altinos: Drant: One cable cut is no big deal. Three cables cut in just as many weeks is downright farking scary.

There were 4.


I didn't mention the 4th because it was scheduled. But ya 4.

/Nothing to see here folks.
//Move along.
///Still think it will happen in April...
 
2008-02-04 12:11:29 PM
RE: American Support for Israel

Does the US give a lot of money to Israel?

You betcha.

But why? Where does that money go?

A lot of it is earmarked money that has to be spent on weapon systems and military equipment, conveniently the Military-Industrial Complex of the US gives discounts to long-term repeat customers like Israel and Israel is "strongly encouraged" to buy American.

Why?

Because most American politicians are connected in one way or another to the MIC. Israel may have a powerful lobby, but the MIC doesn't just lobby the Gov't - it IS the Government.

So, the short answer is, it's a shell game. We have Israel by the balls, since they know without us backing them up it will be genocide. So we "give" them plenty of money to buy shiny new toys. Also from a political stand point, they are a useful tool in the MidEast. Anyway, now that Israel gets all this hard-earned taxpayer money, it goes into the coffers of our political and industrial leaders.

Congrats taxpayer, you have just bought some MIC exec a new million dollar house. Oh, and you have been tricked into believing it is Israel stealing your money and not your own corrupt country.
 
2008-02-04 12:15:58 PM
I thought I smelled sulphur....
 
2008-02-04 12:18:51 PM
Hollywood Cole: czarangelus: Because Assad disrespected the Syrian Army by not responding to an Israeli attack.

Awww did the Sywian awmy get its widdle feewings huwt?



lol. Also, do members of the Syrian army really want to go to the front lines in a war with Israel? My guess: nope.
 
2008-02-04 12:24:37 PM
czarangelus: SnoreCriminal: What about Quds? Or other agents provocateur? Exactly how much power does this secret evil cabal have?

Iran would cut off its own economic and communications lifeline? That's irrational.


Except it didn't cut off anything. They had backups through India. And it did do something - it stirs more anger for Israel. Hell for that matter this could have been done by Hamas. It's not like it takes your shadowy evil cabal to steal a boat and use an anchor to cut some cables.

SnoreCriminal: You say too often, yet provide 0 evidence.

If you kill a Palestinian boy's father, he will grow up hating Israel. It does not matter if his father was a civilian bystander collateral damage. It doesn't matter if he was a Hamas police officer. It doesn't matter if he was an Islamic Jihad terrorist. The intent doesn't matter to the little boy who grows up without a father, and he will never forgive the loss.


Now you are making an assumption that the child grows up in Palestine, where he will be given propaganda telling him his father was a glorious martyr for Allah who was murdered by ruthless Jews that are the sons of swine and apes. If that same child grows up in Israel and is told that his father was a terrorist and that while regrettable saved countless lives, he might just have a different opinion. Intent does matter. Knowledge matters.

SnoreCriminal: You are now upgraded to Hypocrite status. You demand that Syria kill as many Jews as it can, but when Israel has the temerity to retaliate for the attacks they receive they are evil.

So in your world, Israel should be permitted to attack other countries' military bases without any consequence. Is that what you're saying? I mean, why not just have Israel bomb all the bases in Syria, since you deny Syria the ability to defend themselves?


Where did I say that? However, Israel is in a precarious situation. They can't trust the UN, since the UN does nothing to stop attacks against them yet sanctions them for holding parades. If the UN were to actually be fair and unbiased and really helped all parties involved and by golly actually included Israel in the world community, Israel would be more willing to bring things like reports of nuclear facilities in Syria to their attention.

As it is though, Israel is treated as a leper and is shunned. Since they have nothing to lose and no allies in the region, they carry out vigilante justice.
 
2008-02-04 12:27:10 PM
this idea that israel get a raw deal from the un is bunk
 
2008-02-04 12:27:10 PM
So what happened to the Jews in the area between WWI and WWII?
 
2008-02-04 12:32:03 PM
img152.imageshack.us
img155.imageshack.us
img526.imageshack.us

To those concerned with the victims of the violence rather than choosing "sides", you can contribute to those that are saving lives rather than taking them.
 
2008-02-04 12:33:35 PM
LOL:) (new window)
 
2008-02-04 12:34:32 PM
SnoreCriminal: Hell for that matter this could have been done by Hamas. It's not like it takes your shadowy evil cabal to steal a boat and use an anchor to cut some cables.

Uhm, cables 400km apart were cut within hours of each other. It could not have been done by Hamas. It could only have been done by a nation-state with a sophisticated underwater fleet coordination abilities.

SnoreCriminal: Intent does matter. Knowledge matters.

Knowledge? All a young Palestinian would know is that his father was killed by the Zionist enemy. That's the truth, and that's what he will know and remember. You try to cloud the issue with speculations as to what the Zionists' intent may be, while writing off their actual actions - killing a dozen civilians a week.

SnoreCriminal: If the UN were to actually be fair and unbiased and really helped all parties involved and by golly actually included Israel in the world community, Israel would be more willing to bring things like reports of nuclear facilities in Syria to their attention.

Except it wasn't a nuclear facility. All Israel has to do is blather about nukular Holocaust, and people like you will sanction any military action on their part. Israel attacked Syria in a way that was not even remotely justified, and then lied about the cause. Israel is the aggressor and Syria should have stood up for itself.

SnoreCriminal: As it is though, Israel is treated as a leper and is shunned.

Israel is a leperous state. SnoreCriminal: Since they have nothing to lose and no allies in the region, they carry out vigilante justice.

Is it really vigilante justice when you attack a state that has committed no aggressive act on a premise based on total lies?
 
2008-02-04 12:36:24 PM
Jon Snow: To those concerned with the victims of the violence rather than choosing "sides", you can contribute to those that are saving lives rather than taking them.

BRAVO!

Stop the violence! Peace through tolerence and restraint.
 
2008-02-04 12:39:16 PM
are you trying to suck-up to someone?
 
2008-02-04 12:41:38 PM
WORD! (new window)
 
2008-02-04 12:42:35 PM
Jon Snow: To those concerned with the victims of the violence rather than choosing "sides", you can contribute to those that are saving lives rather than taking them.

I can't fault this post at all. Seriously, these people go into warzones and disaster areas worldwide for the simple task of aiding the sick and injured. If you can, help them help others.
 
2008-02-04 12:46:57 PM
ultraholland: Israeli soldiers you say?

Baby eaters have never looked so good.
 
2008-02-04 12:48:54 PM
Jon Snow To those concerned with the victims of the violence rather than choosing "sides", you can contribute to those that are saving lives rather than taking them.

That would seem to be in line with religious (or otherwise) values, and in keeping with being a human being. Regrettably, terrorism and repression seem like endless strategies. Such hate directed towards others, in part due to ancient history, makes little sense in that we all only get about 80 years or so to live. Nobody on this planet's been hanging out for more than about 115 years, so what the hell. Perhaps some future and entire generation will just chill out for 80 years and see how it goes one time. I'm thinking not - but wishing so.
 
2008-02-04 12:51:05 PM
Jon Snow:
Make them citizens or end the Occupation.


See Gaza hand over as to why both of these options are unrealistic at this time.

Advocate Peace. Advocate Palestinian responsibility. Advocate a reform Palestinian government. Anything other than your option of more dead Israelis that you are suggesting with this post.

This is what really pisses me off about Israeli threads. Everyone comes in and bags on Tats, and granted he is really over the top, but the only viable argument that the Anti-Israeli crowd seems to advocate are the solutions that mean an increase in Israeli loss of life. Say it's a strawman if you like but, we all have seen the history and the past precedents.
 
2008-02-04 01:00:57 PM
SnoreCriminal: We have Israel by the balls, since they know without us backing them up it will be genocide.

Really? Israel has a strong economy and defense sector that exports their own products. It's not like they don't produce their own small arms and armor at the very least. They get their lovely 5 generation fighter bombers and their munitions from us which is not exactly necessary considering the Arab countries are still flying MiG-21's (with under trained, inferior pilots).

//Could/should write more, but I should get to work.
 
2008-02-04 01:01:31 PM
Palestine takes out a poking stick.

PALESTINE: pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke

ISRAEL: Please stop. We just want to be left alone. That is all we want in the entire world. We've been getting grief for over 3000 years and we're tired now. We implore you.

PALESTINE: pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke

ISRAEL: Okay. Knock it off or you lose the stick.

PALESTINE: pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepoke

ISRAEL: We warned you.

Israel takes away the poking stick. Palestine gets out another one.

PALESTINE: pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepoke

Repeat, ad nauseum, until Palestine has no more sticks and begins poking with its finger.

PALESTINE: pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepokepoke pokepokepokepokepokepoke

ISRAEL: LEAVE US THE FARK ALONE!!!

Israel grabs Palestine's hand and breaks a couple of fingers.

WORLD: The Israelis are bloodthirsty monsters!
 
2008-02-04 01:04:01 PM
NickPappagiorgio: ISRAEL: LEAVE US THE FARK ALONE!!!

Israel grabs Palestine's hand and breaks a couple of fingers.

WORLD: The Israelis are bloodthirsty monsters!


That's exactly how it is, too. I hold people like you in utter contempt, because it's obvious you don't understand the first thing about the conditions in which the Palestinians actually live.
 
2008-02-04 01:04:21 PM
czarangelus:
SnoreCriminal: Intent does matter. Knowledge matters.

Knowledge? All a young Palestinian would know is that his father was killed by the Zionist enemy. That's the truth, and that's what he will know and remember. You try to cloud the issue with speculations as to what the Zionists' intent may be, while writing off their actual actions - killing a dozen civilians a week.


Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.
 
2008-02-04 01:08:55 PM
nyil: Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.

How can you possibly equivocate the execution of Eichmann with the reckless murder of a Palestinian civilian on the street in Gaza? Right, because you're an apologist for Zionism.
 
2008-02-04 01:13:56 PM
ReverendJasen: Sammy Jenkins: You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?

Call me irrational, but I don't see how blowing up random, uninvolved people can help your cause or fight back against military oppression.


Well, that's kind of the point though, isn't it? It's not a rational response, it's emotional. Isn't one determinant for insanity "doing the same thing and expecting different results," or am I wrong on that matter? It seems the Israelis are just as irrational as the Palestinians if they expect the same tactics of roadblocks and bulldozing (and whatnot) to work the next time if they clearly have only fueled more violence from the Palestinians.

I don't think either side is doing things right for that reason alone: the news about them is repetitive and ignorable for those of us who don't have any kind of direct emotional link to the situation because the news stories are always the same thing over and over again. Palestinians killing Israelis killing Palestinians, and all the tactics are always the same. It's as if the journalists need only fill in the numbers and names on a pre-written article. And yet, both sides continue with the same actions. Perhaps the Palestinians' lack of unity is to blame, or perhaps the Israelis' stubbornness is, but it's likely that both are to blame, but neither seem willing to change in order to actually improve things.

/Maybe Israel is just like sex. God wants you to want it, but only wants you to have it once you have discovered a deeper relationship with one another
 
2008-02-04 01:14:10 PM
czarangelus: nyil: Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.

How can you possibly equivocate the execution of Eichmann with the reckless murder of a Palestinian civilian on the street in Gaza? Right, because you're an apologist for Zionism.


Because Israelis' kill for fun right? Palestinians are freedom fighters and Israelis' are murders. Idiot
 
2008-02-04 01:15:24 PM
DragonFarked: See Gaza hand over as to why both of these options are unrealistic at this time.

Sovereignty or citizenship are not acceptable, but the longest Military Occupation of a people in modern history is?

Advocate Peace. Advocate Palestinian responsibility. Advocate a reform Palestinian government.

Of course.

Anything other than your option of more dead Israelis that you are suggesting with this post.

I am in no way suggesting an option of more dead Israelis. The idea that Occupation prevents death is ludicrous and 40 years of history show it to be a lie.

the only viable argument that the Anti-Israeli crowd seems to advocate are the solutions that mean an increase in Israeli loss of life.

I am pro-Israel all the way. If I was not, I wouldn't demand justice for the Palestinian people and would write them off as doomed. I believe in the goodness of Israeli citizens. I believe that Israel is better than this.

Say it's a strawman if you like but, we all have seen the history and the past precedents.

40 years of history has shown that the Occupation has not stopped attacks. 40 years of punishing a people for the actions of criminals and terrorists has shown that the solution is not razing orchards, bulldozing houses, increasing illegal settlements. 40 years of Occupation has blighted Israel's human rights record and unnecessarily tarnished its image.

It's quite easy to shut people like me up: return within the boundaries of the Green Line or give the Palestinians citizenship.

Israel's legacy will not in the end be one of oppression and Occupation. The only question is which generation will have the courage and vision to set things right again.
 
2008-02-04 01:25:24 PM
czarangelus: nyil: Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.

How can you possibly equivocate the execution of Eichmann with the reckless murder of a Palestinian civilian on the street in Gaza? Right, because you're an apologist for Zionism.


If you would not be deliberately deceptive about the conversation that was taking place, you would notice that the conversation was whether the context of a father's death at the hands of the eeeeebil Zionist Entity would inevitably lead that child to hate the Zionist Entity.

I have provided an actual, non-hypothetical example of a child whose father was actually, non-hypothetically killed by Israel, who did not grow up to be a terrorist or to hate Israel in any way. Therefore, your argument that "all the kid will know is that his dad was killed by Israel" fails, and context and intent do indeed matter.
 
2008-02-04 01:27:49 PM
Argh, that should read "whether the context of a father's death at the hands of the eeeeebil Zionist Entity would matter to the child, or whether the death would inevitably lead that child to hate the Zionist Entity."

And now I've got non-hypothetical court to get to, so I'm out.
 
2008-02-04 01:28:25 PM
nyil: I have provided an actual, non-hypothetical example of a child whose father was actually, non-hypothetically killed by Israel, who did not grow up to be a terrorist or to hate Israel in any way. Therefore, your argument that "all the kid will know is that his dad was killed by Israel" fails, and context and intent do indeed matter.

I give up, you're right. Israel splattering a Palestinian policeman across the sidewalk is exactly the same as Israel executing a convicted war criminal.
 
2008-02-04 01:29:28 PM
Jon Snow:
I won't disagree with you on Israels human rights record. I disagree with the building of new settlements.

But, Look at the Gaza hand over and tell me that the best, the BEST chance at a Palestinian state in recent times was not pissed away by the Palestinians so they could continue attacks on Israel. That right there almost validates Israels need to control the Palestinians in some way.

Sovereignty is an option as long as the Palestinians can show they won't use it to kill more Israeli. Citizenship would also be an option if, again the Palestinians could show they wouldn't round up Jews and sink them in a ship off the coast.
This is why 40 years of occupation hasn't worked! It has no aim. No viable solution. At this point I am almost ready to support the killing of all hardliners, Palestinian and Israeli.
 
2008-02-04 01:29:56 PM
czarangelus: Palestinian policeman

Is there such a thing?
 
2008-02-04 01:30:20 PM
Ghandi would have gotten Palistine free by now.
 
2008-02-04 01:30:25 PM
Well, this thread took a turn for the completely insane
 
2008-02-04 01:31:27 PM
czarangelus: I give up, you're right. Israel splattering a Palestinian policeman across the sidewalk is exactly the same as Israel executing a convicted war criminal.

When that "policeman" is a terrorist with a paycheck, it's an insult for policemen everywhere when you call him that way
 
2008-02-04 01:32:24 PM
czarangelus: nyil: I have provided an actual, non-hypothetical example of a child whose father was actually, non-hypothetically killed by Israel, who did not grow up to be a terrorist or to hate Israel in any way. Therefore, your argument that "all the kid will know is that his dad was killed by Israel" fails, and context and intent do indeed matter.

I give up, you're right. Israel splattering a Palestinian policeman across the sidewalk is exactly the same as Israel executing a convicted war criminal.


There you go with the deliberately deceptive statements and straw man arguments again...
 
2008-02-04 01:34:26 PM
nyil: There you go with the deliberately deceptive statements and straw man arguments again...

Hey, at least he didn't defend Eichmann, so at least give him that
 
2008-02-04 01:36:37 PM
JDAT: Is there such a thing?

Yup. Many "Hamas gunmen" are police.

Tatsuma: When that "policeman" is a terrorist with a paycheck, it's an insult for policemen everywhere when you call him that way

So if you happen to be in the Hamas political party, your paycheck is signed by the Hamas political party, or you ever voted for Hamas in an election, you are a terrorist. More insightful policy from our resident Zionist Entity
 
2008-02-04 01:38:38 PM
Jon Snow: I am in no way suggesting an option of more dead Israelis. The idea that Occupation prevents death is ludicrous and 40 years of history show it to be a lie.

Yes, because the previous 60 years when Arabs killed Jews, and the 500 terrorist attacks from Arabs into Israel through Gaza, Judea and Samaria REALLY proves that the Occupation is the reason why Arabs kill Jews.

You've turned into the pawn of Palestinian propagandists.

Apartheid! The Occupation is the reason! If only Israel would do X! Rah rah rah.
 
2008-02-04 01:39:32 PM
pondelik
Ghandi would have gotten Palistine free by now.

Or hungry.
 
2008-02-04 01:40:49 PM
czarangelus: Yup. Many "Hamas gunmen" are police.

It goes the other way around. Many Hamas gunmen are "police".

So if you happen to be in the Hamas political party, your paycheck is signed by the Hamas political party, you are a terrorist. If you ever voted for Hamas, you are a supporter of Terrorism

You are COMPLETELY right.

Do you realize how farking it is retarded to say that Hamas is a political party and has a military branch?

That's like saying that the Soprano family has their political and their military branch.
 
2008-02-04 01:42:17 PM
Jon Snow: Sovereignty or citizenship are not acceptable, but the longest Military Occupation of a people in modern history is?

PS that's a lie

See: Cyprus, Gibraltar, Ireland, etc...

That's why I say you're such a propagandist.

It is NOWHERE near the longest military occupation of a people in History unless you're criterias are "since 1967" and "within the Jordan and Sea"
 
2008-02-04 01:42:22 PM
czarangelus:
That's exactly how it is, too. I hold people like you in utter contempt, because it's obvious you don't understand the first thing about the conditions in which the Palestinians actually live.


czarangelus: nyil: Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.

How can you possibly equivocate the execution of Eichmann with the reckless murder of a Palestinian civilian on the street in Gaza? Right, because you're an apologist for Zionism.


I get it now. czar has shown me the light. I finally understand the point czarangelus has been trying to make this whole thread....

He's gone off his meds.

nyil: czarangelus: nyil: Ricardo Eichmann might disagree with you.

How can you possibly equivocate the execution of Eichmann with the reckless murder of a Palestinian civilian on the street in Gaza? Right, because you're an apologist for Zionism.

If you would not be deliberately deceptive about the conversation that was taking place, you would notice that the conversation was whether the context of a father's death at the hands of the eeeeebil Zionist Entity would inevitably lead that child to hate the Zionist Entity.

I have provided an actual, non-hypothetical example of a child whose father was actually, non-hypothetically killed by Israel, who did not grow up to be a terrorist or to hate Israel in any way. Therefore, your argument that "all the kid will know is that his dad was killed by Israel" fails, and context and intent do indeed matter.


WIN
Final Score:
Logic and Reason: +1,000,000 czarangulus: -23,000

czaraneglus:
You may want to look up the term "cognitive dissonance"; related is doublethink. Seriously, go see a shrink. It will do wonders for you and, honestly, you will make the porr shrinks day - it's not every day that they get someone walking in that they can base a career study off of.
 
2008-02-04 01:44:16 PM
Tatsuma: It goes the other way around. Many Hamas gunmen are "police".

Does it matter either way? Judging by some of Israel's poor decision-making, one man's terrorist is another man's traffic cop.

Tatsuma: You are COMPLETELY right.

Do you realize how farking it is retarded to say that Hamas is a political party and has a military branch?


No, you are an idiot.

For so many reasons.

1. The options available to the Palestinians were Hamas and Fatah. Both parties had their hands in terrorist activities. Either way, Israel was going to use this to ally with one and attempt to split apart Palestinian society.

2. If you're a police officer on the ground, you don't care who signs your paychecks. When you have a family to feed, it could be the Democrats or Hamas or even Al-Queda. You'll take that check and cash it regardless.

3. Most people who voted for Hamas did so because they hoped to see a change after Arafat's corrupt party screwed them over for decades. All relevant polls show that most Palestinians favor peace with Israel.
 
2008-02-04 01:45:40 PM
21-7-b: this idea that israel get a raw deal from the un is bunk

The UN formally apologized a few months ago to Israel for treating them unfairly

You fail.
 
2008-02-04 01:46:02 PM
SnoreCriminal: You may want to look up the term "cognitive dissonance"; related is doublethink. Seriously, go see a shrink. It will do wonders for you and, honestly, you will make the porr shrinks day - it's not every day that they get someone walking in that they can base a career study off of.

I'm well aware of the overall paradigm of psychology, and I can assure you that all shrinks are completely insane. Every student I've ever known to go into psychology did so to try to self-diagnose their neuroses, and all professional shrinks I know have a very limited picture of reality and human place in it. In conclusion - you're mad, and trying to impose your madness on others using drugs and violence.
 
2008-02-04 01:47:09 PM
czarangelus: Yup. Many "Hamas gunmen" are police.

FAIL
 
2008-02-04 01:48:28 PM
pondelik: Ghandi would have gotten Palistine free by now.

He would have long since been killed....By Hamas.
 
2008-02-04 01:49:01 PM
czarangelus: Does it matter either way? Judging by some of Israel's poor decision-making, one man's terrorist is another man's traffic cop.

Yes, it certainly matters. And no, Israel doesn't go after "traffic cops". That's retarded even for you

1. The options available to the Palestinians were Hamas and Fatah. Both parties had their hands in terrorist activities. Either way, Israel was going to use this to ally with one and attempt to split apart Palestinian society.

You're a farking liar

They all ran in the last election

Third Way

This list was headed by Finance Minister Dr Salam Fayyad and former PA Minister of Higher Education and Research Hanan Ashrawi. Their platform focused on reform of the security forces, democratic improvements and socioeconomic progress. [3].

In the run up to the election a Fatah leader in Nablus accused the Third Way of receiving funds from the CIA. [4]

The Alternative

This list was a coalition of the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian People's Party, the Palestine Democratic Union (Fida), and various independents. The list was headed by Qais Abd al-Karim (Abou Leila) from the DFLP. The PPP candidate received 2.67% in the Palestinian presidential election, 2005. In the list vote, its best vote was 6.6% in Bethlehem, followed by 4.5% in Ramallah and al-Bireh and 4.0% in Nablus.

Wa'ad

Also known as the National Coalition for Justice and Democracy, this list was headed by Gazan doctor Eyad El-Sarraj, who was a consultant to the Palestinian delegation to the Camp David 2000 Summit and heads a group of Palestinian and Israeli academics working towards a peace agreement. [5] The list's main platform is security reforms, establishing the rule of law and respect for human rights.

2. If you're a police officer on the ground, you don't care who signs your paychecks. When you have a family to feed, it could be the Democrats or Hamas or even Al-Queda. You'll take that check and cash it regardless.

It's better to starve than to take money from Al Qaeda, become a member and facilitate murder of innocents.

3. Most people who voted for Hamas did so because they hoped to see a change after Arafat's corrupt party screwed them over for decades. All relevant polls show that most Palestinians favor peace with Israel.

www.drybonesproject.com
 
2008-02-04 01:49:22 PM
czarangelus:
I'm well aware of the overall paradigm of psychology, and I can assure you that all shrinks are completely insane. Every student I've ever known to go into psychology did so to try to self-diagnose their neuroses, and all professional shrinks I know have a very limited picture of reality and human place in it. In conclusion - you're mad, and trying to impose your madness on others using drugs and violence.


Tom Cruze called and he agrees completely. Everyone, Please stop being glib to Czar.
 
2008-02-04 01:49:26 PM
DragonFarked: Look at the Gaza hand over and tell me that the best, the BEST chance at a Palestinian state in recent times was not pissed away by the Palestinians so they could continue attacks on Israel.

Withdrawal from Gaza was not "the BEST chance at a Palestinian state". It was a calculated move to try and net Israel increased control over Jerusalem and more settlements in the West Bank under any final agreement.

Tatsuma: You've turned into the pawn of Palestinian propagandists.

I have never defended terrorism, and I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty.

Apartheid! The Occupation is the reason! If only Israel would do X! Rah rah rah.

Ctrl-F "Apartheid" results only in your straw man.

I have faith in Israelis' sense of right and wrong. The Occupation will end and those that give the Palestinians equality will be rewarded justly in the annals of history.
 
2008-02-04 01:50:01 PM
Hamas IS a terrorist organization. Israelis are industrious people. The stick-poking analogy is accurate. The Palestinians need to police their own and start becoming more industrious. If they can't police their own, it will be done for them at great cost.

/pragmatic.
 
2008-02-04 01:51:08 PM
czarangelus: I know have a very limited picture of reality and human place in it.

You say that, but I don't think you realize how far off from reality you are
 
2008-02-04 01:51:30 PM
JDAT: He would have long since been killed....By Hamas.

Gaza's Catholic Priest

Yep, Hamas just kills any one they don't like that they can get their hands on.

Hamas frees kidnapped BBC journalist

Damn you Hamas!
 
2008-02-04 01:51:34 PM
I don't recognize Hamas a a legitimate political party....Then again I don't recognize Palastine as a legitimate State either. Nor Palastineans as an actual people.
 
2008-02-04 01:54:54 PM
Tatsuma: Yes, it certainly matters. And no, Israel doesn't go after "traffic cops". That's retarded even for you

They don't "go after," they just regularly kill them. By coincidence. Just like those four undersea cables.

Tatsuma: They all ran in the last election

Third Way


Right. Or the Palestinians just could have voted Libertarian, or for Nader.

Tatsuma: It's better to starve than to take money from Al Qaeda, become a member and facilitate murder of innocents.

That's easy for you to say, a fat Western Jew living in a life of luxury and comfort.

Tatsuma: You say that, but I don't think you realize how far off from reality you are

You still adhere to such quaint ideological views, like there's a "reality" somewhere outside yourself.
 
2008-02-04 01:56:25 PM
How is it that the chants of kill the Jews, possibly followed by attacks, aren't considered escalating tension. Chanting that you're going to murder the other people, especially since it's been carried out several times, is quite a bit more obnoxious.
 
2008-02-04 01:56:36 PM
Jon Snow: I have never defended terrorism, and I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty.

Yes you do. You claim that

40 years of history has shown that the Occupation has not stopped attacks. 40 years of punishing a people for the actions of criminals and terrorists has shown that the solution is not razing orchards, bulldozing houses, increasing illegal settlements. 40 years of Occupation has blighted Israel's human rights record and unnecessarily tarnished its image.

The whole point you're trying to make is that Israel, by trying to defend itself, is making things worse

Ctrl-F "Apartheid" results only in your straw man.

Cut the shiat. You post pictures of South Africa and yuo talk about Segregation in the Deep South.

You know exactly what you're saying.
 
2008-02-04 01:59:50 PM
czarangelus: Gaza's Catholic Priest

Yep, Hamas just kills any one they don't like that they can get their hands on.


How dare you? How farking dare you?

Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?

Damn you Hamas!

Journalist they allowed to be captured, too. The group who did it have very strong links with Hamas.

They don't "go after," they just regularly kill them. By coincidence. Just like those four undersea cables.

You're insane

Right. Or the Palestinians just could have voted Libertarian, or for Nader.

Oh no I can vote for fascists, communists or moderates. Well, the fascists and communists have bigger parties, so fark the moderates!

That's easy for you to say, a fat Western Jew living in a life of luxury and comfort.

I don't live in luxury and comfort, and I'm going to live in even dire conditions when I move to a hilltop. So fark off.

You still adhere to such quaint ideological views, like there's a "reality" somewhere outside yourself.

Hint: Just because you are insane doesn't mean we all are
 
2008-02-04 02:00:17 PM
grotto_man: How is it that the chants of kill the Jews, possibly followed by attacks, aren't considered escalating tension. Chanting that you're going to murder the other people, especially since it's been carried out several times, is quite a bit more obnoxious.

Would it be appropriate to use large bombs to destroy the house of a white supremecist in suburban Idaho? Why or why not?
 
2008-02-04 02:01:06 PM
czarangelus: I'm well aware of the overall paradigm of psychology, and I can assure you that all shrinks are completely insane. Every student I've ever known to go into psychology did so to try to self-diagnose their neuroses, and all professional shrinks I know have a very limited picture of reality and human place in it. In conclusion - you're mad, and trying to impose your madness on others using drugs and violence.

I do have one actual, serious question. Are you a Scientologist? I know it's unrelated, but the anti-psych made me ask...
 
2008-02-04 02:02:06 PM
Tatsuma: Update: Finally, it's 1 woman dead, 1 in critical condition, 10 wounded (moderate to serious (keep in mind that losing an limb is sometimes classified as moderate), one subhuman scumbag exploded, and one subhuman scumbag shot 5 times in the head as he tried to blow himself up.

Give the Holy Jew who shot him a medal.


You know, Tatsuma, I really empathize with what's going on over there. But the 'scumbags' aren't the root of the problem.

It's the asshats instigating the 'scumbags.' If there were only some way to deal with the leadership who only want to see more carnage, then MAYBE there could be some progress there in the Middle East. And I know the IDF tries to get them...but...good luck with that.

I think one way to deal with the propaganda the fundies there do to stir up jihadists is with your own propaganda. I don't know if it'd work, though, as their propaganda is so rooted in their religious beliefs, and has been drilled into each and every one of their heads since birth.
 
2008-02-04 02:03:05 PM
Tatsuma: How dare you? How farking dare you [stand up to me. Don't you know I'm a Jew?]

FTFY

Tatsuma: Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?

Can you cite any sources for this, or are you just making things up as you go like usual? After all, Hamas is evil so they must be, and I quote "slaughtering" Christians. Even if they're not.

Tatsuma: Oh no I can vote for fascists, communists or moderates. Well, the fascists and communists have bigger parties, so fark the moderates!

Guess what? That's called realpolitik and it's practiced in every country, every day, by almost every citizen. Like it or not that's how things run.

Tatsuma: I don't live in luxury and comfort, and I'm going to live in even dire conditions when I move to a hilltop. So fark off.

I'm sure your conditions will be just dire. You poor, victimized Jew - I can't believe I haven't been more sympathetic to your plight.

Tatsuma: Hint: Just because you are insane doesn't mean we all are

You're definitely all insane. As a matter of fact, everyone could be diagnosed with a half-dozen mental illnesses, at various times in their lives. The most insane people are the ones who falsely believe themselves to be sane and rational.
 
2008-02-04 02:04:13 PM
xanadian: You know, Tatsuma, I really empathize with what's going on over there. But the 'scumbags' aren't the root of the problem.

Oh, I know, I know and I completely agree with you.

But, sadly, as you said:

their propaganda is so rooted in their religious beliefs, and has been drilled into each and every one of their heads since birth.I don't know if it'd work

We're talking about deeeeeeply brainwashed people. Anti-semitism and love of terrorism fed to them with their mother's milk.
 
2008-02-04 02:04:23 PM
Tatsuma: Yes you do

No. I have never defended terrorism. Saying the Occupation doesn't and hasn't stopped violence != defending terrorism.

Cut the shiat. You post pictures of South Africa and yuo talk about Segregation in the Deep South.

You know exactly what you're saying.


If Condoleeza Rice's words and analogy bother you, take it up with her. I made no mention of Apartheid, if you would like to make comparison's between South African Apartheid and the Occupation, feel free. I am choosing not to.
 
2008-02-04 02:04:59 PM
SnoreCriminal: I do have one actual, serious question. Are you a Scientologist? I know it's unrelated, but the anti-psych made me ask...

No, I just have experience, variously involuntary, with the psychiatric profession. I've taken several psychology classes and am aquainted with many psychology students. They, to the last, live in a world of delusions completely lacking empirical evidence, and they reject most of the empirical evidence they do receive because it does not fit into their preconceived notions.
 
2008-02-04 02:06:26 PM
Sammy Jenkins: You expect the Palestinians to be passive victims?

It worked for the civil rights movement here in the states. And I'm not the one drawing the comparison: Jon Snows did that first. You get a lot more sympathy if you're not perpetrating violence yourself.

I don't recall MLK calling on people to blow up random public areas. In fact I'd be willing to bet you anything that if the American Civil Rights movement were organized as an armed, violent "intifadah", we'd still have "coloreds only" water fountains.
 
2008-02-04 02:06:40 PM
Tatsuma: their propaganda is so rooted in their religious beliefs, and has been drilled into each and every one of their heads since birth.I don't know if it'd work

We're talking about deeeeeeply brainwashed people. Anti-semitism and love of terrorism fed to them with their mother's milk.


Sometimes the most humane thing to do is to put the whole race down before the disease spreads.
 
2008-02-04 02:07:30 PM
czarangelus: FTFY

I thought you said yesterday that you cared little about that? You sure are awesome when it comes to race-baiting, though

Can you cite any sources for this, or are you just making things up as you go like usual? After all, Hamas is evil so they must be, and I quote "slaughtering" Christians. Even if they're not.

Most of us are not completely ignorant

Guess what? That's called realpolitik and it's practiced in every country, every day, by almost every citizen. Like it or not that's how things run.

Then, if you vote for terrorists, don't whinge when we stop sending you money and doing business with you.

I'm sure your conditions will be just dire. You poor, victimized Jew - I can't believe I haven't been more sympathetic to your plight.

You're the one saying I live in luxury when I've never lived in luxury during all my life. So, again, fark off.

PS: Here you go with the race-baiting again
 
2008-02-04 02:07:50 PM
soyousay: Sometimes the most humane thing to do is to put the whole race down before the disease spreads.

img.slate.com

Congratulations! You've won this thread's Hitler Award.
 
2008-02-04 02:09:37 PM
Jon Snow: No. I have never defended terrorism. Saying the Occupation doesn't and hasn't stopped violence != defending terrorism.

You don't defend the use of terrorism, you excuse terrorism by blaming the occupation for the "cycle of violence"

If Condoleeza Rice's words and analogy bother you, take it up with her. I made no mention of Apartheid, if you would like to make comparison's between South African Apartheid and the Occupation, feel free. I am choosing not to.

I will photoshop your picture of your head on a SS soldier's body but don't worry, I'm not calling you a nazi.

soyousay: Sometimes the most humane thing to do is to put the whole race down before the disease spreads.

Errsh, the problem is the ideology, and ethnic cleansing isn't going to help.
 
2008-02-04 02:10:07 PM
itazurakko: 21 days in jail is over the top.

What!? They're war criminals! They got off easy!!
 
2008-02-04 02:10:36 PM
soyousay: Tatsuma: their propaganda is so rooted in their religious beliefs, and has been drilled into each and every one of their heads since birth.I don't know if it'd work

We're talking about deeeeeeply brainwashed people. Anti-semitism and love of terrorism fed to them with their mother's milk.

Sometimes the most humane thing to do is to put the whole race down before the disease spreads.


wow. both of you. wow.
 
2008-02-04 02:10:38 PM
Tatsuma: I thought you said yesterday that you cared little about that? You sure are awesome when it comes to race-baiting, though

Well, you're so good at taking the bait I just can't resist.

Tatsuma: Most of us are not completely ignorant

So one Christian activist murdered by unknown assailants is equivalent to "Hamas slaughtering Christians." You, my friend, are totally batshiat.

Tatsuma: You're the one saying I live in luxury when I've never lived in luxury during all my life. So, again, fark off.

If you know where your next meal is coming from, you live in luxury.
 
2008-02-04 02:11:05 PM
Tatsuma: Errsh, the problem is the ideology, and ethnic cleansing isn't going to help.

Geez Tats, I wasn't actually serious.
 
2008-02-04 02:11:53 PM
soyousay: Tatsuma: Errsh, the problem is the ideology, and ethnic cleansing isn't going to help.

Geez Tats, I wasn't actually serious.


whew...

/pops batteries in sarcasm detector
 
2008-02-04 02:12:23 PM
soyousay: Geez Tats, I wasn't actually serious.

Well, sorry, but I had to point out I didn't agree, otherwise some farkers automatically make me guilty by association

Good to know
 
2008-02-04 02:13:13 PM
fenrael23: wow. both of you. wow.

Why do you include me? Do you deny that Palestinian children are indoctrinated to hate Jews from their youngest years?
 
2008-02-04 02:13:44 PM
WTF? Don't they know that's how all of this stuff got started int he first place?
 
2008-02-04 02:17:24 PM
Tatsuma: You don't defend the use of terrorism, you excuse terrorism by blaming the occupation for the "cycle of violence"

I am not "excusing terrorism" I said the Occupation doesn't stop it.

I will photoshop your picture of your head on a SS soldier's body but don't worry, I'm not calling you a nazi.

Do whatever you like. I support peace and get mocked for it. I advocate sovereignty and am accused of excusing terrorism. I preach equality and am labeled a "propagandist". Call me a Nazi if it makes you feel good.
 
2008-02-04 02:17:48 PM
Jon Snow:
Withdrawal from Gaza was not "the BEST chance at a Palestinian state". It was a calculated move to try and net Israel increased control over Jerusalem and more settlements in the West Bank under any final agreement.


Gaza was an open door to a Palestinian state. I have no doubt that part of Israels motive is just what you said but, the cynical way in which you framed it does not exactly support the statement below.

I have faith in Israelis' sense of right and wrong. The Occupation will end and those that give the Palestinians equality will be rewarded justly in the annals of history.

Lets go this route. Palestinian equality is brought about how? Is a Hamas government going to promote equality when they are refusing to change their charter goals? Does Palestinian people voting for Hamas promote this equality with their Israeli counter-parts? Say this equality is had but the attacks do not stop but Israels role has gone from a military one to a police action. Is this still Palestinian equality? I would love the "Lets all have flowers and peace" form of equality that I think is really your underlining message (which I greatly respect) but, what about the realities of the situation?
 
2008-02-04 02:17:59 PM
The problem in the middle east is the heat. You can't work in heat just look at the mexicans. When in mexico mexicans are as lazy as only they can be. As soon as they move up north they start working like machines.(Based on watching the TV). So in middle east no jobs, no work creates this restless mentality of war mongoring people.
 
2008-02-04 02:18:35 PM
selloco: WTF? Don't they know that's how all of this stuff got started int he first place?

What? Like when the Jewish people came in and tried to wipe out the Caananites, Amalakites, Hittites, etc. etc.?
 
2008-02-04 02:18:46 PM
Tatsuma: fenrael23: wow. both of you. wow.

Why do you include me? Do you deny that Palestinian children are indoctrinated to hate Jews from their youngest years?


I include you because you because you are crazier than a shiathouse rat. Yes, I deny your use of blanket statements. We've been down this road before. I'll leave you to your delusions.
 
2008-02-04 02:19:46 PM
Broz_Tito: The problem in the middle east is the heat. You can't work in heat just look at the mexicans. When in mexico mexicans are as lazy as only they can be. As soon as they move up north they start working like machines.(Based on watching the TV). So in middle east no jobs, no work creates this restless mentality of war mongoring people.

Actually, Gaza is quite pleasant.
 
2008-02-04 02:21:27 PM
Broz_Tito: The problem in the middle east is the heat. You can't work in heat just look at the mexicans. When in mexico mexicans are as lazy as only they can be. As soon as they move up north they start working like machines.(Based on watching the TV). So in middle east no jobs, no work creates this restless mentality of war mongoring people.

That and every place looks the same (except Dubai...nice neck of the ..err..woods). No wonder they are getting into border disputes and pissing matches. They're confused, bored, and hot.
 
2008-02-04 02:22:39 PM
Tatsuma: Jon Snow: No. I have never defended terrorism. Saying the Occupation doesn't and hasn't stopped violence != defending terrorism.

You don't defend the use of terrorism, you excuse terrorism by blaming the occupation for the "cycle of violence"

If Condoleeza Rice's words and analogy bother you, take it up with her. I made no mention of Apartheid, if you would like to make comparison's between South African Apartheid and the Occupation, feel free. I am choosing not to.

I will photoshop your picture of your head on a SS soldier's body but don't worry, I'm not calling you a nazi.


Calm down Tats. Jon is actual someone you can debate with. Calling him a Nazi only runs off the one person in this debate that has a coherent anti-Israel view.

/Down boy
 
2008-02-04 02:24:03 PM
DragonFarked: Palestinian equality is brought about how?

Make them citizens or end the Occupation, and it would shut me right up. A free and independent Palestine that chooses war with Israel will not be supported by people like myself. I do not deny Israel the right to self-defense, but nor do I deny the Palestinian people the right to either independence or equality.
 
2008-02-04 02:24:22 PM
soyousay: What? Like when the Jewish people came in and tried to wipe out the Caananites, Amalakites, Hittites, etc. etc.?

Going back a bit there aren't you?
 
2008-02-04 02:24:28 PM
soyousay: What? Like when the Jewish people came in and tried to wipe out the Caananites, Amalakites, Hittites, etc. etc.?

Actually I was just talking about one person exposing their bare a55 while pointing it in the direction of another persons face.

But if you want to turn that into a metaphor feel free.
 
2008-02-04 02:26:05 PM
Jon Snow: Do whatever you like. I support peace and get mocked for it. I advocate sovereignty and am accused of excusing terrorism. I preach equality and am labeled a "propagandist". Call me a Nazi if it makes you feel good.

Here's the point:-.---------
Here's you:---------------*-

I'm not calling you a Nazi, I'm saying you know exactly what you're projecting by being so blatant, which would be equivalent of me picturing you at a nazi and say "What? Calling you a nazi, moi? Of course not, control+f this thread and you'll see it's a strawman!"

fenrael23: I include you because you because you are crazier than a shiathouse rat. Yes, I deny your use of blanket statements. We've been down this road before. I'll leave you to your delusions.

Except for the whole fact that it's documented and documented and there are hundreds of videos showing my point?
 
2008-02-04 02:26:19 PM
DragonFarked: Calling him a Nazi only runs off the one person in this debate that has a coherent anti-Israel view.

I fully support Israel as a nation, and I ask only that it end its Occupation or grant equality to all those within its control who have not been convicted of criminal or terrorist action.

How does that make me or my views "anti-Israel"?
 
2008-02-04 02:26:46 PM
czarangelus: So one Christian activist murdered by unknown assailants is equivalent to "Hamas slaughtering Christians." You, my friend, are totally batshiat.

I love your hypocrisy. You complain, moan and biatch about EVERYTHING Israel does, even make shiat up, but the second it's the Arabs or Muslims doing bad shiat, automatically you start pretending nothing is happening and you completely stop caring about their plight.
 
2008-02-04 02:27:21 PM
Jon Snow: How does that make me or my views "anti-Israel"?

Because you ask for National Suicide and you don't care a single bit for Israeli victims, only Palestinians.
 
2008-02-04 02:28:40 PM
Tatsuma: I'm not calling you a Nazi, I'm saying you know exactly what you're projecting by being so blatant, which would be equivalent of me picturing you at a nazi and say "What? Calling you a nazi, moi? Of course not, control+f this thread and you'll see it's a strawman!"

You disagree with Condoleeza Rice's analogy. I do not. If that to you is the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, I'm not really sure how to engage you in rational discourse.

I want Israelis and Palestinians to enjoy peace, freedom, and sovereignty. If people want to disagree with that, that is their right.
 
2008-02-04 02:29:32 PM
Tatsuma: I love your hypocrisy. You complain, moan and biatch about EVERYTHING Israel does, even make shiat up, but the second it's the Arabs or Muslims doing bad shiat, automatically you start pretending nothing is happening and you completely stop caring about their plight.

What hypocrisy? You made a ridiculous claim, that Hamas is engaged in widespread murder of Christians in Gaza. You then back that claim up with an article about one Christian activist being murdered by unknown assailants. If your ridiculous claim was actually true, you'd have done a much better job of finding evidence for it.

I, however, can find you a dozen sources on Israel killing dozens of Palestinian civilians.
 
2008-02-04 02:32:03 PM
czarangelus: All relevant polls show that most Palestinians favor peace with Israel.


Were the results of these polls shown before or after the "Hamas Mickey Mouse Let's Teach Our Kids to Hate Jews Variety Hour?"
 
2008-02-04 02:32:52 PM
Tatsuma: Because you ask for National Suicide

Israel does not face an existential threat by returning to its borders. I doubt you will find any analysis that supports such a caricature of the situation.

you don't care a single bit for Israeli victims

img155.imageshack.us

When did Magen David Adom refuse to care for Israeli victims? I must have missed that announcement.
 
2008-02-04 02:32:58 PM
Jon Snow: You disagree with Condoleeza Rice's analogy. I do not. If that to you is the equivalent of calling someone a Nazi, I'm not really sure how to engage you in rational discourse.

You claim that you're not talking about Apartheid, but you make a direct visual link between both, and then you talk about segregation in the south, and make a direct link with the Palestinians

Then you turn around and deny that.

czarangelus: What hypocrisy? You made a ridiculous claim, that Hamas is engaged in widespread murder of Christians in Gaza.

No, I said

Tatsuma: Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?

And what about the 400 Xians from Gaza who asked to leave, and the rest who said they were leaving and not coming back? That's not driving them out?

You're a disgusting individual.
 
2008-02-04 02:34:15 PM
czarangelus: No, I just have experience, variously involuntary, with the psychiatric profession. I've taken several psychology classes and am aquainted with many psychology students. They, to the last, live in a world of delusions completely lacking empirical evidence, and they reject most of the empirical evidence they do receive because it does not fit into their preconceived notions.


Stand back! He's got EXPERIENCE!

mysite.verizon.net
 
2008-02-04 02:34:49 PM
Jon Snow: Israel does not face an existential threat by returning to its borders. I doubt you will find any analysis that supports such a caricature of the situation.

Israel doesn't face an existential threat right now by the Palestinians either.

That doesn't mean we should make it even easier for them to kill us.

When did Magen David Adom refuse to care for Israeli victims? I must have missed that announcement.

Oh, yay, you're token Jew link in your, what, 10th post on the issue? 9 posts wailing about the poor palestinians who deserve a state, not a word about today's suicide bombing, and one link for Israel

You're right, it's COMPLETELY fair and balanced.
 
2008-02-04 02:36:20 PM
Jon Snow: DragonFarked: Palestinian equality is brought about how?

Make them citizens or end the Occupation, and it would shut me right up. A free and independent Palestine that chooses war with Israel will not be supported by people like myself. I do not deny Israel the right to self-defense, but nor do I deny the Palestinian people the right to either independence or equality.


That wouldn't be war, it would be slaughter. Also to add reality to this, the first rocket would be a declaration of war in Israels eyes. Some how I think Israel knows this and is therefore smart enough to "occupy" them. Seriously now, what do you do with a people that have a segment of their population that doesn't care for the rest and will openly choose to allow the slaughter of their people?
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to frame the Israeli as protecting the Palestinians from themselves. There is enough blame for everyone in the situation to make that untrue, I just don't think they want to wholesale slaughter an independent Palestine if they can help it.
 
2008-02-04 02:38:13 PM
joshik72: Were the results of these polls shown before or after the "Hamas Mickey Mouse Let's Teach Our Kids to Hate Jews Variety Hour?"

Yes, when polls don't say what you want them to say, they're fabricated. Why do you want the Palestinians to hate the Jews?

Tatsuma: No, I said

Tatsuma: Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?


One anonymous murder is not a "slaughter."

Tatsuma: And what about the 400 Xians from Gaza who asked to leave, and the rest who said they were leaving and not coming back? That's not driving them out?

You're a disgusting individual.


It's unfortunate that Israel has imposed conditions on Gaza such that they'll claim any excuse to flee. I knew a Jewish girl who got exit papers from the Soviet Union because she was Jewish, but she was fleeing political oppression and not religious persecution.
 
2008-02-04 02:38:38 PM
DragonFarked: That wouldn't be war, it would be slaughter.

Not only that, but let's still look at reality.

A new free and independant Palestine declares war to Israel. Israel fights back. Am I supposed to believe that suddenly he wouldn't support them? He wouldn't complain about Israeli "disproportionate" use of force? RIIIIGHT.
 
2008-02-04 02:39:58 PM
czarangelus: One anonymous murder is not a "slaughter."

One article about Xmas 2007 /= history of Xians in Gaza

I've already gave you links and you blamed all of it on Israel

It's unfortunate that Israel has imposed conditions on Gaza such that they'll claim any excuse to flee. I knew a Jewish girl who got exit papers from the Soviet Union because she was Jewish, but she was fleeing political oppression and not religious persecution.

Again, you're a disgusting individuals. These people said they leaved because of oppressions by other Palestinians, and you still blame it all on Israel.
 
2008-02-04 02:44:10 PM
Tatsuma: One article about Xmas 2007 /= history of Xians in Gaza

You're actively denying that many Christians live in Palestine without facing worse persecution than anybody else living there. A few anonymous murders do not qualify as widespread persecution, a fact that has eluded you for some time now.

Tatsuma: Again, you're a disgusting individuals. These people said they leaved because of oppressions by other Palestinians, and you still blame it all on Israel.

The article didn't say anything like that.
 
2008-02-04 02:44:15 PM
Jon Snow: DragonFarked: Calling him a Nazi only runs off the one person in this debate that has a coherent anti-Israel view.

I fully support Israel as a nation, and I ask only that it end its Occupation or grant equality to all those within its control who have not been convicted of criminal or terrorist action.

How does that make me or my views "anti-Israel"?


Because it advocates the killing of more Israelis. Now if Palestinians had not attacked the Israeli yesterday, and the day before that and the day before that....... and voted a Hamas government into power after Arafat's death...... We might be in agreement of what constitutes a pro Israeli position. As the situation stand advocating full citizenship for Palestinians seems to be an anti-Israeli view. Hopefully a Palestinian government with peace in mind can change that and negate this argument.
 
2008-02-04 02:48:00 PM
Tatsuma: A new free and independant Palestine declares war to Israel. Israel fights back. Am I supposed to believe that suddenly he wouldn't support them?

I would condemn any nation that declares war on Israel. To portray my position otherwise is within spitting distance of deliberate smearing, as I have routinely defended Israel's reaction to Egypt's advances precipitating the Six Day War, and repeatedly debunked the idea that Israel was unprovoked.

He wouldn't complain about Israeli "disproportionate" use of force? RIIIIGHT.

When any military carpet bombs cities, uses cluster bombs on civilian population centers, or otherwise engages in terrorism, I do not support it. Be it in Dresden, Iraq, Lebanon, a future Palestine, etc.

It's called ideological consistency. I don't support terrorism as resistance and I don't support terrorism through modern warfare.
 
2008-02-04 02:49:13 PM
Jon Snow: It's called ideological consistency. I don't support terrorism as resistance and I don't support terrorism through modern warfare.

How is that ideological consistency when you support a solution that will create 10 times more terrorism than there is today?
 
2008-02-04 02:50:30 PM
Christian persecution under the gentle rule of the peaceful and innocent Hamas (new window)

This article cites:

* Christian kidnapped and murdered - ran the only Christian bookstore in Gaza
* An elderly Christian woman was beaten and robbed - attacker called her an infidel
* Christian school and monastery looted and set on fire
* Christian man stabbed

But right czar - no problems for the Christians in Gaza. There's that cognitive dissonance again...
 
2008-02-04 02:51:43 PM
SnoreCriminal: But right czar - no problems for the Christians in Gaza. There's that cognitive dissonance again...

Plus, you know, they really are only leaving because of the zionists who love to use them as practice targets
 
2008-02-04 02:53:24 PM
Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation involving Isreal without it devolving into propraganda, racism, and personal attacks? This thread has been Godwined, it's over.

The End.
 
2008-02-04 02:54:09 PM
tatsuma

The UN formally apologized a few months ago to Israel for treating them unfairly

You fail.


i actually feel quite good about being told that i fail by you. but, no matter. do you have a link please?
 
2008-02-04 02:56:56 PM
Tatsuma: How is that ideological consistency when you support a solution that will create 10 times more terrorism than there is today?

While there would no doubt be a temporary upswing in terrorism, I believe that a free and independent Palestine would ultimately reduce terrorism. Reducing violence while creating equality is the whole point. You can disagree with that opinion as much as you like, but it is hardly inconsistent with my values or previous statements.

DragonFarked: Because it advocates the killing of more Israelis.

I politely disagree that this will be the longterm consequence of a Palestinian state.
 
2008-02-04 02:57:04 PM
oh look - what a surprise, tatsuma is once again wheeling out the "anti-semite / nazi / jack-boot" lines without any cause whatsoever - except to defend his position

you're pathetic, tatsuma
 
2008-02-04 02:57:11 PM
strategothird: Is it possible to have an intelligent conversation involving Isreal without it devolving into propraganda, racism, and personal attacks?

nope!

/i like easy questions
 
2008-02-04 02:57:18 PM
megram: It isn't made in a "peace sign" way, it looks cocky and arrogent, and as for taking a pee... maybe the one on the left, but the one on the right is shaking his ass. I don't know about you but when I take a pee, I don't need my ass hanging out to do it.

Even if they weren't peeing, who f*cking cares?
 
2008-02-04 02:57:42 PM
SnoreCriminal: But right czar - no problems for the Christians in Gaza. There's that cognitive dissonance again...

1) Article is from the Occupied Jerusalem Post.
2) Article refers to the exact same incident discussed by Tatsuma and I above.
3) I never said there were "no problems," just that there is not widespread, government-sanctioned persecution as Tatsuma claims.
4) The article that Tatsuma linked, with interviews with the pastor of the church, indicated that most Christians were leaving due to Israeli sanctions and the upswing in Hamas-Fatah violence.
5) Three Palestinian groups claimed responsibility for the Dimonia bombing today. They obviously aren't shy about claiming responsibility for civilian casualties. However, no group claimed responsibility for harassing Christians. Why? Because they know it wouldn't be widely supported by the population of Gaza.
 
2008-02-04 03:00:03 PM
21-7-b: oh look - what a surprise, tatsuma is once again wheeling out the "anti-semite / nazi / jack-boot" lines without any cause whatsoever - except to defend his position

you're pathetic, tatsuma


Not to mention, he comes off sounding like a damn nazi himself, using words like "subhumans" and flexing his famous "with us or against us" type logic with a barrage of blanket statements. Everything black & white in his world. Or should that be jew and anti-semite?
 
2008-02-04 03:01:17 PM
21-7-b: oh look - what a surprise, tatsuma is once again wheeling out the "anti-semite / nazi / jack-boot" lines without any cause whatsoever - except to defend his position

you're pathetic, tatsuma


You've been called an anti-semite by Tatsuma? Welcome to the biggest club on Fark, don't forget to join our Facebook and Myspace groups.
 
2008-02-04 03:02:04 PM
Cerebral Ballsy: 21-7-b: oh look - what a surprise, tatsuma is once again wheeling out the "anti-semite / nazi / jack-boot" lines without any cause whatsoever - except to defend his position

you're pathetic, tatsuma

You've been called an anti-semite by Tatsuma? Welcome to the biggest club on Fark, don't forget to join our Facebook and Myspace groups.


Do you have a google group?
 
2008-02-04 03:04:19 PM
21-7-b: i actually feel quite good about being told that i fail by you. but, no matter. do you have a link please?

If I do, will you apologize and say that the UN is indeed biased?
 
2008-02-04 03:06:24 PM
Jon Snow: While there would no doubt be a temporary upswing in terrorism

You could just say "Well, lots and lots of Jews will die, but I think it'll be worth it" since on the ground, that's the very same thing

fenrael23: Not to mention, he comes off sounding like a damn nazi himself, using words like "subhumans" and flexing his famous "with us or against us" type logic with a barrage of blanket statements. Everything black & white in his world. Or should that be jew and anti-semite?

Oh yes, calling a man who blew himself up in a mall "subhuman" Oh the humanity, I'm a real monster ready to send people to the death camps. Idiot.
 
2008-02-04 03:07:01 PM
21-7-b: If I do, will you apologize and say that the UN is indeed biased?

Links for Peace?
 
2008-02-04 03:07:31 PM
Tatsuma: Oh yes, calling a man who blew himself up in a mall "subhuman" Oh the humanity, I'm a real monster ready to send people to the death camps. Idiot.

If you could send him to a death camp before he made it to the mall, it would be okay, right?
 
2008-02-04 03:07:46 PM
soyousay: Tatsuma: their propaganda is so rooted in their religious beliefs, and has been drilled into each and every one of their heads since birth.I don't know if it'd work

We're talking about deeeeeeply brainwashed people. Anti-semitism and love of terrorism fed to them with their mother's milk.

Sometimes the most humane thing to do is to put the whole race down before the disease spreads.


Yay, me! I contributed to a Godwin! (see who Tats quoted beforehand).

My work here is done.

Tatsuma: Well, this thread took a turn for the completely insane

i159.photobucket.com

Well, it *is* Fark... ;)
 
2008-02-04 03:08:19 PM
Israel army chicks?
Hot or not they are still racist religious retards living in a racist state

Fark Israel
Fark the middle East
 
2008-02-04 03:08:57 PM
Oh, and if the UN is not incredibly biased against Israel, can anyone explain to me why there were 22 resolutions against Israel in the 2006-2007 and not a single one against Sudan?
 
2008-02-04 03:10:14 PM
czarangelus: Yes, when polls don't say what you want them to say, they're fabricated. Why do you want the Palestinians to hate the Jews?


Believe me, I would LOVE to read that most Palestinians (and other Arabs) would like to live side-by-side with their Jewish neighbors.

Where are the Arab equivalents of groups like B'Tselem and Peace Now? Where is the outcry from the Palestinians when there is a suicide bombing? On the contrary, Tats has posted a video link showing the Palestinians rejoicing and handing out candy and flowers when Jews are killed. State-run television broadcasts children's shows that are designed to indoctrinate their children into hating Jews and wanting to become "martyrs". Posters are displayed all over towns lauding suicide bombers. Parents are interviewed and proclaim that they are PROUD that their child was a suicide bomber, and are eager for their younger ones to grow up and become suicide bombers.

If there is a majority of Palestinians who would like to live in peace with Israel, they're being awfully quiet about it...
 
2008-02-04 03:12:28 PM
 
2008-02-04 03:12:55 PM
Jon Snow: Tatsuma: Because you ask for National Suicide

Israel does not face an existential threat by returning to its borders. I doubt you will find any analysis that supports such a caricature of the situation.


I thought he was referring to "integration" or "full return" or whatever you call it?
 
2008-02-04 03:13:48 PM
joshik72: Where are the Arab equivalents of groups like B'Tselem and Peace Now?

Uhm, Al-Jazeera does periodic reports on peaceful Palestinian protests. If you don't hear about it, it's because your media sources don't want you to hear about it.

joshik72: If there is a majority of Palestinians who would like to live in peace with Israel, they're being awfully quiet about it...

No, they're not. Your media is. How would you hear about a peaceful protest in Palestine? In Sri Lanka? Of course you would not hear of these things on a mainstream media news outlet that sells violence and bizarre sex.
 
2008-02-04 03:14:24 PM
Tatsuma: You could just say "Well, lots and lots of Jews will die, but I think it'll be worth it" since on the ground, that's the very same thing

That's an interesting way of reframing my statement that I believe an action will reduce the number of deaths for all involved. Make it about dead Jews rather than peace and equality. After associating me with Nazis and the SS.

Maybe you'll trick people unfamiliar with my actual beliefs into thinking I agree with that- good luck with that. I am betting that very few people will see it for anything other than what it is.
 
2008-02-04 03:15:19 PM
Jon Snow: DragonFarked: Because it advocates the killing of more Israelis.

I politely disagree that this will be the longterm consequence of a Palestinian state.


I think he's hinting that there would be certain unsavory elements that would say their winning of an independent Palestinian state was thanks to their acts of "freedom-fighting."

But I'm only guessing here.

On a semi-related note (or not), who is the guy with the big hair and trenchcoat pointing at something and yelling, like he's shocked to see something?

Thanks ;)
 
2008-02-04 03:15:19 PM
have you got the formal apology you mentioned earlier, tatsuma?
 
2008-02-04 03:15:22 PM
Tatsuma: Oh the humanity, I'm a real monster ready to send people to the death camps.

Well, having dehumanized your enemy...you're halfway there. :)

Idiot.

That's right, Tats. Everyone is an idiot...except you. Three-quarters of the way there! Just work on the mindless followers bit and you'll be set.
 
2008-02-04 03:16:05 PM
czarangelus: How would you hear about a peaceful protest in Palestine?

Give me ONE link of say a thousand Palestinians together protesting peacefully against suicide bombings. Just one. One.

FarkingUpTheWrongTree: I thought he was referring to "integration" or "full return" or whatever you call it?

That too, but hey, he's fine with plenty of Jews dying since he thinks it will potentially maybe you know, be better. At least for Palestinians.
 
2008-02-04 03:17:07 PM
Jon Snow:
It's called ideological consistency. I don't support terrorism as resistance and I don't support terrorism through modern warfare.


I can respect this. And I apologize for calling you "anti-Israeli". I can respect an Ideological opinion but reality
seldom ever matches Ideology.

Jon Snow:
While there would no doubt be a temporary upswing in terrorism, I believe that a free and independent Palestine would ultimately reduce terrorism.

DragonFarked: Because it advocates the killing of more Israelis.

I politely disagree that this will be the longterm consequence of a Palestinian state.


I agree that it would not be the long term consequence. I don't think the terrorists could withstand the "long term" in a Palestinian state. I feel sorry for the people of Palestine while getting to "the long term".
Now for the meat of the "short term" It's sad that Israeli people have to die in increased numbers to achieve your "long term". Did it occur to you that as bad for the Palestinians as the situation has been for 40 years that the alternative could be much worse?
Like I have said in other threads, peace has to start with the Palestinians. Saying that Israel should give them citizenship or a state is all well and good, one could say ideological, but the cold reality to that is Death to Israelis, Death to Palestinians, or lots of death to both. I'd rather take none of the above instead of take an Ideological view.
 
2008-02-04 03:17:12 PM
Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.

home.flash.net

Pretty much says it all. The majority of the people of Palestine voted for a terrorist organisation with the state aim of the liquidation of Israel. Therefore, the majority of Palestinians support terrorism and anti-semitism (well, anti-Judaism technically as Arabs are semites, but you know what I mean).
 
2008-02-04 03:18:56 PM
Jon Snow: That's an interesting way of reframing my statement that I believe an action will reduce the number of deaths for all involved

It won't. You said yourself that there will be a spike in terrorism. And you think that somehow this will all stop after that?

Have you ever been to Jerusalem? All they would have to do is to go on a rooftoop with a hunting rifle and a scope, and they could snipe a Jew, and run away. You think they would be arrested by Palestinian "police"?

That's what they used to do, and they will do it again. And that's just Jerusalem.

They ALREADY do that from the other side of the fence and inside Israel.

After associating me with Nazis and the SS.

I did not associate you with the Nazis, for fark's sake. You really are missing the point

fenrael23: That's right, Tats. Everyone is an idiot...except you. Three-quarters of the way there! Just work on the mindless followers bit and you'll be set.

Plenty of people are not idiots around here. Even if I think that, on this issue, Jon Snow is very naive at best, I wouldn't say he is an idiot.
 
2008-02-04 03:19:29 PM
Tatsuma: Anyway, UNHRC: We've been unfair to Israel, we're sorry

Not that I'm baiting you or anything, but you may want a link that goes to someplace other than the Jerusalem Post... I know other people will call you out later for it. So I'm just saying now.
 
2008-02-04 03:19:31 PM
 
2008-02-04 03:21:02 PM
joshik72: Posters are displayed all over towns lauding suicide bombers. Parents are interviewed and proclaim that they are PROUD that their child was a suicide bomber, and are eager for their younger ones to grow up and become suicide bombers.

If there is a majority of Palestinians who would like to live in peace with Israel, they're being awfully quiet about it...


That's just it, they are being quiet about it. Being a Palestinian living in the West Bank or Gaza and making noises about making peace with Israel is somewhat akin to living in Berlin in 1942 and handing out flyers calling Hitler an insane psychopath - not good for your longevity. Not to Godwin anything, but some Palestinians have been "disappeared" for being "collaborators," even though "collaboration" can be as simple as publicly saying "Hey, I have an idea, why don't we stop this endless and self-destructive cycle of violence and come to an agreement with Israel? Whaddya say?"

As much anti-Israel indoctrination as there is in the territories, I'm sure that a lot of the hostility you hear about is "going along to get along".
Anecdotally, it also seems like most of the Palestinians who travel abroad don't express anything like the stubbornly militant sentiments you'll hear in the Ramallah Daily (or whichever papers people read over there).
 
2008-02-04 03:21:14 PM
are you going to provide a link to the formal apology, tatsuma, or do you us an apology?
 
2008-02-04 03:21:50 PM
Ok, formal apologies to Jon Snow:

I wasn't calling you a Nazi, or a SS soldier. I'm sorry if that's what you got from what I was saying.

My point was: I can't tack your head on the body of a nazi soldier, post the pic and then pretend I'm not calling you a nazi, the same way you can't post a famous Apartheid picture next to a similar one featuring Palestinians and pretending you're not making a link

If you prefer, it would be like me posting a bunch of nazis screaming in a rally, then a similar picture of Palestinians screaming in a rally, and pretending I'm not making a link.

duncan_bayne: (well, anti-Judaism technically

no, anti-semitism. It's not the antonym of semitism. It never meant anything but hatred of Jews. FYI.
 
2008-02-04 03:23:05 PM
czarangelus:

I said "AGAINST SUICIDE BOMBINGS".

21-7-b: are you going to provide a link to the formal apology, tatsuma, or do you us an apology?

I have already
 
2008-02-04 03:25:08 PM
where have you, tatsuma?
 
2008-02-04 03:27:14 PM
Tatsuma: That too, but hey, he's fine with plenty of Jews dying since he thinks it will potentially maybe you know, be better. At least for Palestinians.

Eh, I think you're putting words in his mouth. I thought he was saying something along the lines of "Yes, people may die if we try X, but we've been trying Y for decades now and nothing's changed."
Not saying I agree with his idea specifically, but trying to think up a viable solution to the conflict as things stand now is the sort of thing that leads to aneurysms and heavy drinking.

Whatever, either of you can correct me if I'm wrong. I can't stay on the thread long anyway.
 
2008-02-04 03:27:39 PM
Tatsuma: I said "AGAINST SUICIDE BOMBINGS".

Who cares what you say?

Is "Waaaaah but suicide bombings!" really an excuse for a tank killing 10 peaceful protesters, among them children? Wait, it's you - of course it is! All you have to do is mutter one of your Kabbalist magic words like terrorism or Holocaust, and it justifies any and all crimes and atrocities committed by the Israeli regime. People are tired of it and many are starting to notice that you're a naked emperor.
 
2008-02-04 03:27:45 PM
Tatsuma: That too, but hey, he's fine with plenty of Jews dying since he thinks it will potentially maybe you know, be better. At least for Palestinians.

Wow. Seriously, good luck with painting me as not caring about Jews dying. Maybe it will work and not backfire horribly on you.

To everyone else, this is absolutely not true and a gross distortion of my opinions. I am not "fine with" anyone getting killed, let alone "plenty of people" let along "plenty of Jews".

Disgusting, petty, and low. Wow.
 
2008-02-04 03:29:17 PM
FarkingUpTheWrongTree: Eh, I think you're putting words in his mouth. I thought he was saying something along the lines of "Yes, people may die if we try X, but we've been trying Y for decades now and nothing's changed."

No, he said there is "no doubt" that there would be a rise in terrorism. Do you remember the last "rise in terrorism" circa 2000-2003?

That's hundreds of dead Jews. He considers this an acceptable price, because he thinks that this will possibly lead to less deaths in the future, and peace.

I certainly don't consider this an acceptable price.
 
2008-02-04 03:29:55 PM
duncan_bayne: Those that find it offensive should probably do some soul searching to see why this causes them anger.



Pretty much says it all. The majority of the people of Palestine voted for a terrorist organisation with the state aim of the liquidation of Israel. Therefore, the majority of Palestinians support terrorism and anti-semitism (well, anti-Judaism technically as Arabs are semites, but you know what I mean).


Democracy in action. Sometimes, it isn't pretty. I guess it just goes to show who did the better job of bullshiatting the public there: Hamas or Fatah. And Hamas was the bigger bullshiatter.

czarangelus: Ten die when Israeli tanks fire on peaceful protest

I'm guessing after you've fought Palestinians for so long, you get a bit paranoid. It's not like the IDF doesn't have reason to be. Still tragic, nonetheless.

I guess, when someone has an idea that will (a) stop the rabble-rousers from rousing the rabble in Palestine, and (b) form an effective and prosperous independent Palestinian state, then maybe there'll be cause for discussion. But as long as Israel is constantly feeling the need to be on-guard from terrorists, and as long as there are Palestinians who feel that terrorism is their only option (and there are Palestinian--or even foreign--leaders fomenting this violence just for the sake of violence, supposedly in the name of a vengeful God), we will not see any even-tempered discussion on what's best for the region.

It's too sensitive a subject for both sides.
 
2008-02-04 03:30:56 PM
tatsuma, where did you link to the formal apology? was it another thread?
 
2008-02-04 03:31:14 PM
FarkingUpTheWrongTree: I thought he was saying something along the lines of "Yes, people may die if we try X, but we've been trying Y for decades now and nothing's changed."

Yes. And I also believe a free and independent Palestine will undermine (though realistically not complete erase) much of the impact of indoctrination that the Occupation provides to future potential terrorists.

Pretending I am "fine with plenty of Jews dying" is an incredibly dishonest tactic, more so when I have done nothing but advocate peace and equality.
 
2008-02-04 03:31:27 PM
czarangelus: Who cares what you say?

Then don't answer my questions if you don't care. If you do answer my questions, answer what I asked, not something else.

Jon Snow: Wow. Seriously, good luck with painting me as not caring about Jews dying. Maybe it will work and not backfire horribly on you.

It's not that you don't care, it's that you find it acceptable.

While there would no doubt be a temporary upswing in terrorism, I believe that a free and independent Palestine would ultimately reduce terrorism

It it acceptable to you that hundreds of Jews will die in a "temporary upswing" of terrorism, if it means peace and stability afterward.
 
2008-02-04 03:33:25 PM
Jon Snow: Pretending I am "fine with plenty of Jews dying" is an incredibly dishonest tactic, more so when I have done nothing but advocate peace and equality.

You advocate a solution that will lead to a "temporary upswing of terrorism".

You also say that this "temporary upswing of terrorism" is a reasonable price since it will ultimately lead to peace

This "temporary upswing of terrorism" will lead to hundreds of Jews dying.

Are you not fine with the solution that you're advocating? If you're fine with the solution, aren't you fine with the results? If you are fine with the results, aren't you fine with what will lead you there?
 
2008-02-04 03:33:34 PM
Tatsuma: Then don't answer my questions if you don't care. If you do answer my questions, answer what I asked, not something else.

Nice dodge. Do you have anything to say in response to the tank firing on the peaceful Palestinian protest? Come on, what sort of excuse do you have this time? Or will you instead crawl out of this thread penitently? Or will you just ignore it? This, and many more questions answered when I come back from lunch.
 
2008-02-04 03:34:02 PM
Tatsuma: It it acceptable to you that hundreds of Jews will die

Keep repeating that. Maybe you'll be able to convince someone reading it that it is true.

Yourself for instance.
 
2008-02-04 03:34:41 PM
czarangelus: Nice dodge.

No it's not a dodge. I asked a question and you didn't answer it, then you try to prop another red herring.

You already said you don't care about what I said anyway

Come on, what sort of excuse do you have this time?

I do have to daven, I'll be back in 20 minutes.
 
2008-02-04 03:34:45 PM
21-7-b: have you got the formal apology you mentioned earlier, tatsuma?

He posted the link...

There is also this:

The UN Human Rights Council, like its predecessor the UN Human Rights Commission, has been criticised by mainly Western countries for focusing too much on Israel.[18] By April 2007, the Council had passed nine resolutions condemning Israel and had been the only country the UN Human Rights Council had specifically condemned.[19][20] By comparison, toward Sudan, a country with severe human rights abuses in Darfur as documented by the Council's work groups, it has only expressed "deep concern."[19]

The council voted on 30 June 2006 to make a review of possible human rights abuses by Israel a permanent feature of every council session. The Council's special rapporteur on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is its only expert mandate with no year of expiry. The resolution, which was sponsored by Organization of the Islamic Conference, passed by a vote of 29 to 12 with five abstentions. Human Rights Watch urged it to look at international human rights and humanitarian law violations committed by Palestinian armed groups as well. Human Rights Watch called on the council to avoid the selectivity that discredited its predecessor and urged it to hold special sessions on other urgent situations, such as Darfur.[21]

At its Second Special Session in August 2006, the Council announced the establishment of a High-Level Commission of Inquiry charged with probing allegations that Israel systematically targeted and killed Lebanese civilians during the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.[22] The resolution was passed by a vote of 27 in favour to 11 against, with 8 abstentions. Before and after the vote several member states and NGOs objected that by targeting the resolution solely at Israel and failing to address Hezbollah attacks on Israeli civilians, the Council risked damaging its credibility. The members of the Commission of Inquiry, as announced on 1 September 2006, are Clemente Baena Soares of Brazil, Mohamed Chande Othman of Tanzania, and Stelios Perrakis of Greece. The Commission noted that its report on the conflict would be incomplete without fully investigating both sides, but that "the Commission is not entitled, even if it had wished, to construe [its charter] as equally authorizing the investigation of the actions by Hezbollah in Israel,"[23] as the Council had explicitly prohibited it from investigating the actions of Hezbollah.

On 29 November 2006, UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan criticised the Human Rights Council for "disproportionate focus on violations by Israel" while neglecting other parts of the world such as Darfur, which had what he termed "graver" crises.[24][25] Annan reiterated this position in his formal address on 8 December 2006 (International Human Rights Day), noting the Commission's "disproportionate focus on violations by Israel. Not that Israel should be given a free pass. Absolutely not. But the Council should give the same attention to grave violations committed by other states as well."[26]

On 20 June 2007, Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon joined Western nations in criticising the world body's own Human Rights Council for picking on Israel as part of an agreement on its working rules. A UN statement said, "The Secretary-General is disappointed at the council's decision to single out only one specific regional item given the range and scope of allegations of human rights violations throughout the world." The European Union, Canada and the United States attacked the singling-out of Israel's role in the Palestinian territories for continued special investigation, under the deal reached in Geneva two days earlier.

The Geneva meeting aroused further controversy after Cuba and Belarus, both accused of abuses, were removed from a list of nine special mandates, which included North Korea, Cambodia and Sudan, carried forward from the defunct Commission.[2]


The Council's charter preserves the watchdog's right to appoint special investigators for countries whose human rights records are of particular concern, something many developing states have long opposed. Commenting on Cuba and Belarus, the UN statement said Ban noted "that not having a Special Rapporteur assigned to a particular country does not absolve that country from its obligations under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." The United States said a day before the UN statement that the Council deal raised serious questions about whether the new body could be unbiased. Alejandro Wolff, deputy US permanent representative at the United Nations, accused the council of "a pathological obsession with Israel" and also denounced its action on Cuba and Belarus. "I think the record is starting to speak for itself," he told journalists.[3][4]

Addressing the United Nations General Assembly on 25 September 2007, U.S. President George W. Bush highlighted points such as "dictatorship... [in] Belarus, North Korea, Syria, and Iran, brutal regimes deny their people the fundamental rights enshrined in the Universal Declaration," "the situation in Burma, where a military junta has imposed a 19-year reign of fear. Basic freedoms of speech, assembly, and worship are severely restricted. Ethnic minorities are persecuted. Forced child labor, human trafficking, and rape are common. ... In Cuba, the long rule of a cruel dictator is nearing its end. ... In Zimbabwe, ordinary citizens suffer under a tyrannical regime. ... In Sudan, innocent civilians are suffering repression - and in the Darfur region, many are losing their lives to genocide."

The president added: "The goals I've outlined today cannot be achieved overnight - and they cannot be achieved without reform in this vital institution. The United States is committed to a strong and vibrant United Nations. Yet the American people are disappointed by the failures of the Human Rights Council. This body has been silent on repression by regimes from Havana to Caracas to Pyongyang and Tehran - while focusing its criticism excessively on Israel. To be credible on human rights in the world, the United Nations must reform its own Human Rights Council."[5]

The UNHRC President Doru Costea responded that: "I agree with him. The functioning of the Council must be constantly improved." He added that the Council must examine the behaviour of all parties involved in complex disputes and not place just one state under the magnifying glass.[27][28] .

Speaking at the IDC's Herzliya Conference in Israel in January 2008, Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen criticized the actions of the Human Rights Council actions against Israel. "At the United Nations, censuring Israel has become something of a habit, while Hamas's terror is referred to in coded language or not at all. The Netherlands believes the record should be set straight, both in New York and at the Human Rights Council in Geneva," Verhagen said.


As of January 24, 2008, Israel has been condemned 15 times in less than two years since the council was established. Myanmar (formerly Burma), has also been condemned by the council.
(new window)

So there you have it; Kofi Anan, Ban Ki Moon, The Dutch Foreign Minister and others all say the UNHRC is biased against Israel.
 
2008-02-04 03:37:23 PM
Jon Snow: Keep repeating that. Maybe you'll be able to convince someone reading it that it is true.

Yourself for instance.


Answer me truthfully:

Did you say that your solution will lead to a temporary upswing of terrorism?

Did you say that your solution will ultimately lead to peace, even if the price is a temporary upswing of terrorism?

Did the last temporary upswing of terrorism back in the early 2000s kill hundreds of Jews?

If your ideology is "you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs" then fine, just come out and say it. Don't pussyfoot around and pretend to angry when the consequences of what you advocate are thrown back into your face.

If you really cared about actual peace, you would be asking the Palestinians to stop the violence, not the Israelis to give them a State.
 
2008-02-04 03:38:49 PM
Tatsuma: You also say that this "temporary upswing of terrorism" is a reasonable price since it will ultimately lead to peace

Not just peace but less terrorism. You keep leaving that part out.

If you were going to even remotely pretend you weren't just trying to paint me as someone "fine with" Jews being killed, you would frame it in terms of temporary increased deaths of both Arabs and Jews followed by overall fewer deaths of Arabs and Jews with the added bonus of equality.

Sure, that doesn't sound as bad as just stating that I am fine with hundreds of Jews being killed because what I actually said was that it would end up saving Jewish lives and Arab lives to boot. But that doesn't quite do the same job of painting me to be a monster does it?
 
2008-02-04 03:39:06 PM
I usually just lurk in these threads because no one seems to listen to anything anyone else says. But I have a question for everyone (especially Tatsuma since he seems the most vocal and constant presence) who is saying any solution that anyone else suggests Israel taking will result in more Israeli deaths and the Palestinians have to make all the changes etc. Everyone seems to be agreed that the current state of affairs is not good for either party. What can Israel do that will help the current situation? I'm not asking about what the Palestinians can do because it's pretty obvious that non-violent protest would be the way to go on their end but I have yet to see anyone suggest something similarly reasonable and workable for Israel. If you say there's nothing else Israel can do you lose all credibility with me at least because there are 2 sides involved in this dispute. Both sides can positively or negatively affect the situation. So let's hear it what can Israel do that will result in a better situation for all involved?
 
2008-02-04 03:40:06 PM
Jon Snow: A free and independent Palestine that chooses war with Israel will not be supported by people like myself. I do not deny Israel the right to self-defense, but nor do I deny the Palestinian people the right to either independence or equality.


You know what the reply is? (No, the reply isn't to smear you as a Nazi.) The reply is to smear you as a Nazi that Israel, until 1967, didn't occupy Gaza and the West Bank. And the Arabs in that year sought to snuff the life out of Israel. So Israel, in self-defense, fought for its life. (This is after Egypt allied with Syria and Jordan to destroy it, and after the Egyptians expelled the UN from the Sinai and began an illegal blockade of Israeli ports.) You know this history.

If the Palestinians wanted to end the occupation, they could do so virtually overnight. All they'd have to do is acknowledge Israel's right to exist and then carry through with a pledge to stop terrorizing it. That's all it would take. In the absence of that, the Arabs in Greater Israel don't deserve independence.

Self-determination is a good thing, but it has to be earned. Luckily, the bar for self-determination is set pretty low: basically, you've got to stop savagely killing your neighbors. Unluckily -- for everyone involved -- it seems that the Arabs in Gaza and the West Bank can't even meet that low threshold. Maybe it's time to put them on buses to Amman and Cairo. Maybe it's time that Israel, finally, "gets tough" with the Palestinians.


Jon Snow:Israel does not face an existential threat by returning to its borders.

It does when the official position of its neighbors remains that Israel must be destroyed, and the people to whom you'd have Israel grant autonomy have that objective as well.
 
2008-02-04 03:40:55 PM
Holy crap, czarangelus is that special sort of nuts. The kind where you can just watch the flecks of foam forming at the sides of their mouth as they speak.

Have you ever heard the phrase "losing the message in the delivery"? If you come across as an unwashed hobo street preacher screaming about how everyone's crazy and you know this from your "involuntary" experience with the psychiatric profession, what we see is not what you're saying but the fact that you've probably been taken away by the nice men in the soft white coats sometime in the past.

Maybe you should get an editor. Or just someone to poke you in the ribs when you've hopped on the train to crazytown.
 
2008-02-04 03:41:55 PM
SnoreCriminal

He posted the link...

did he? that's fantastic. where? can you show me the post, please?
 
2008-02-04 03:43:17 PM
czarangelus: No, I just have experience, variously involuntary, with the psychiatric profession. I've taken several psychology classes and am aquainted with many psychology students. They, to the last, live in a world of delusions completely lacking empirical evidence, and they reject most of the empirical evidence they do receive because it does not fit into their preconceived notions.

I know someone like that. He lives in a world of delusions completely lacking empirical evidence. He rejects all of the empirical evidence offered to him because it does not fit into his preconceived notions. He also borrowed money to go to college and got a liberal arts degree. He graduated expecting someone would pay him for the grand ideas emanating from his big brain. Last I heard, he was doing telemarketing, data entry, or some other grunt office work. He feels the world owes him a living and he has no intention of paying back the people who financed his education.
 
2008-02-04 03:45:10 PM
SnoreCriminal

So there you have it; Kofi Anan, Ban Ki Moon, The Dutch Foreign Minister and others all say the UNHRC is biased against Israel.

do you mind if i ask why you posted all that as a link, which i guess by default usually means in blue text, that changes when you move over it?
 
2008-02-04 03:46:32 PM
Smirkles: Arabs in Greater Israel

Did you write that sincerely or ironically?

Maybe it's time that Israel, finally, "gets tough" with the Palestinians.

Oh. I'm guessing sincerely. Good to know.
 
2008-02-04 03:48:08 PM
21-7-b: tatsuma, where did you link to the formal apology? was it another thread?

It's about 20 posts up, between joshik72 and FarkingUpTheWrongTree

Anyway, gotta run. As they say, "cat's on fire, brb"
 
2008-02-04 03:48:23 PM
21-7-b: SnoreCriminal

So there you have it; Kofi Anan, Ban Ki Moon, The Dutch Foreign Minister and others all say the UNHRC is biased against Israel.

do you mind if i ask why you posted all that as a link, which i guess by default usually means in blue text, that changes when you move over it?


Because so many people on Fark seem to have great difficulty seeing links and/or reading.
 
2008-02-04 03:52:28 PM
Tatsuma: No it's not a dodge. I asked a question and you didn't answer it, then you try to prop another red herring.

You already said you don't care about what I said anyway


Will you condemn this atrocity or not?

For the record, I have condemned many instances of suicide bombing.
 
2008-02-04 03:54:57 PM
xanadian

It's about 20 posts up, between joshik72 and FarkingUpTheWrongTree

no, it's not. that seems to be a second-hand report of part of an interview with a spanish newspaper. which, i suspect, most people would suggest, is not to be confused with a formal apology - unless you are not even trying to discuss the truth.

SnoreCriminal

Because so many people on Fark seem to have great difficulty seeing links and/or reading.

i would suggest you, for one. but, do you think that displaying it like that makes it easier, or harder, to read and discuss?

/it seems to me like you tatsuma are taking rather a lot of dramatic license, at the expense of honest discussion. are you his right-hand propagandist?
 
2008-02-04 03:55:16 PM
Drakkenmaw: Maybe you should get an editor. Or just someone to poke you in the ribs when you've hopped on the train to crazytown.

Nobody is crazier than the masses of people who falsely believe themselves to be sane just because they buy into commonplace delusions.

Polly Ester: I know someone like that. He lives in a world of delusions completely lacking empirical evidence. He rejects all of the empirical evidence offered to him because it does not fit into his preconceived notions.

I guess you're not talking about me, since I'm a radical empiricist. I believe that all sensory data has equal validity, including dreams, hallucinations, and other widely-dismissed data sets.

Polly Ester: He graduated expecting someone would pay him for the grand ideas emanating from his big brain.

That person must have been rather naive, but I see some of myself in it. Me, I was raised to believe that somehow you would somehow get rewarded if you cultivated your intellect. I wish I had been raised with a more realistic understanding, but by the time I realized how naive it was I was already hip deep in shiat.
 
2008-02-04 04:04:27 PM
Jon Snow: Tatsuma: You also say that this "temporary upswing of terrorism" is a reasonable price since it will ultimately lead to peace

Not just peace but less terrorism. You keep leaving that part out.

If you were going to even remotely pretend you weren't just trying to paint me as someone "fine with" Jews being killed, you would frame it in terms of temporary increased deaths of both Arabs and Jews followed by overall fewer deaths of Arabs and Jews with the added bonus of equality.

Sure, that doesn't sound as bad as just stating that I am fine with hundreds of Jews being killed because what I actually said was that it would end up saving Jewish lives and Arab lives to boot. But that doesn't quite do the same job of painting me to be a monster does it?


Jon I'm not trying to paint you as someone "fine with" killing Jews but, you seem to be glossing over the fact that it will be horrific. Also add in that Syria and Lebanon could decide to buy some chips in the "upswing of terrorism" game and the odds of a "long term" peace at the end of this start going down. With a Palestinian state just sitting there in the way you are trying to frame it, seems to be more of an unstable factor for the region rather than a more stable factor. Jordan and Egypt might not appreciate Israel suddenly sending refugees climbing over the borders, closed or not, with the sudden creation of a Palestinian state.

/DragonFarked - abusing the comma for 20 years!
 
2008-02-04 04:04:41 PM
czarangelus: Will you condemn this atrocity or not?

I'll comment right after you find me a link of a thousand palestinians+ protesting suicide bombings.

For the record, I have condemned many instances of suicide bombing.

For the record, you also said that if you were a Palestinian you would train and send 12 year old boys to blow themselves up
 
2008-02-04 04:06:36 PM
Peppermint Rose: I usually just lurk in these threads because no one seems to listen to anything anyone else says. But I have a question for everyone (especially Tatsuma since he seems the most vocal and constant presence) who is saying any solution that anyone else suggests Israel taking will result in more Israeli deaths and the Palestinians have to make all the changes etc. Everyone seems to be agreed that the current state of affairs is not good for either party. What can Israel do that will help the current situation? I'm not asking about what the Palestinians can do because it's pretty obvious that non-violent protest would be the way to go on their end but I have yet to see anyone suggest something similarly reasonable and workable for Israel. If you say there's nothing else Israel can do you lose all credibility with me at least because there are 2 sides involved in this dispute. Both sides can positively or negatively affect the situation. So let's hear it what can Israel do that will result in a better situation for all involved?



One of the large problems is that Israel is being asked to relinquish a real, tangible asset (land) for something intangible (recognition and peace). Peace and recognition can be revoked at anytime, whereas land can't.

Let's take Gaza as a test case. Everyone demands that Israel pulls out of the Occupied Territories. So Israel enters Gaza and forcibly removes (ethnically cleanses!) all of the Jews who had been living there for the past 20-odd years. There are now no longer any Jews living in Gaza. The exchange price for that upheaval was supposed to be an decrease in violence (land for security/peace). In exchange for pulling the Jews out of Gaza, Israel now receives hundreds of rocket/missile attacks per month (on Jan. 17, 2008, over 100 rockets were launched into Sderot).

What should Israel do? How does it defend itself against these attacks? If it builds barriers and controls checkpoints, it's accused of "collective punishment". If it goes directly after the terrorists, it's accused of "targeted assassinations." The terrorists literally surround themselves with children and other non-combatants, so invariably some poor soul is caught in the crossfire, and Israel is blamed for "massacring" civilians.

The real issue is that the simple presence of a Jewish State in that region represents an unbearable "humiliation" for the Arabs, and their only recourse is to destroy the source of their humiliation. How in the wide world do we change this attitude?
 
2008-02-04 04:06:43 PM
i hope people will also notice tatsuma's response when pressed on the nature of the formal apology - to totally fail to address any post about it.

he / she, quite voluntarily, popped up to take issue with something that i had stated.

he / she did this by making a claim, which appears to have been unfounded. however, having made that claim, he / she absolutely refused to be drawn on it, and only tried to evade being drawn on it

you can add to that mindset the wild accusations of anti-semitism used to smear those who oppose him / her - and the huge amount of posts from that user account, all of the same style

it is really, quite determined propaganda
 
2008-02-04 04:07:17 PM
Tatsuma: I'll comment right after you find me a link of a thousand palestinians+ protesting suicide bombings.

Palestinians protest use of teenagers for bombings

Now comment, biatch.

Tatsuma: For the record, you also said that if you were a Palestinian you would train and send 12 year old boys to blow themselves up

I say a lot of things for the record.
 
2008-02-04 04:09:27 PM
czarangelus: Nobody is crazier than the masses of people who falsely believe themselves to be sane just because they buy into commonplace delusions.

And again... you're losing your message. Let me elaborate with an explanation. You're in a thread about Israel. Your original post was "I would post links to the real incidents of Israeli soldiers raising tensions (shooting little boys, old men, leveling the homes of civilians,) but the US government has finally managed to cut my access to Al Jazeera with those cable cuts." Now, your posts can be boiled down to "SURE I'M CRAZY, BUT EVERYONE'S CRAZY! YOU'RE NUTTIER THAN I AM IF YOU THINK YOU'RE ACTUALLY SANE! HUMANITY IS DELUSIONAL!"

Let's pretend for a second that you're actually trying to convince someone of the validity of your opinions. Given that the majority of people at least think they are sane, rational beings, would it not make sense to consider phrasing your arguments to take this into account and thus cater to the audience you are trying to present a position to? In political debate, the term is "going off-message." Driving people off-message is a pretty quick and easy way to discredit someone you're debating with, by getting people hearing the debate to go "good lord, that man is 31 flavors of crazy" and thus ignore whatever point you're trying to make because they find your other views or opinions personally distasteful.

In essence, you're losing your audience before your points are even heard because people you could be talking to have already tuned you out as a generic nutbar. Just something to consider, if you're actually trying to convince people of the propriety or validity of your opinions.
 
2008-02-04 04:09:44 PM
czarangelus: Now comment, biatch.

They protested about them sending teenagers, not about suicide bombings, they were still fine with that

img357.imageshack.us
 
2008-02-04 04:10:55 PM
DragonFarked: you seem to be glossing over the fact that it will be horrific.

If that seems so, I apologize. It isn't my intent. I acknowledge that barring some sea change in the peace process, withdrawal will lead to more attacks with the likely consequences of more deaths on both sides in the short term. I certainly have no desire for these deaths to happen as much as I do believe that it will prevent deaths in long run. But continuing the Occupation hasn't stopped the violence and the Palestinian people remain stateless and unequal.
 
2008-02-04 04:11:10 PM
joshik72: One of the large problems is that Israel is being asked to relinquish a real, tangible asset (land) for something intangible (recognition and peace). Peace and recognition can be revoked at anytime, whereas land can't.

Let's take Gaza as a test case. Everyone demands that Israel pulls out of the Occupied Territories. So Israel enters Gaza and forcibly removes (ethnically cleanses!) all of the Jews who had been living there for the past 20-odd years. There are now no longer any Jews living in Gaza. The exchange price for that upheaval was supposed to be an decrease in violence (land for security/peace). In exchange for pulling the Jews out of Gaza, Israel now receives hundreds of rocket/missile attacks per month (on Jan. 17, 2008, over 100 rockets were launched into Sderot).

What should Israel do? How does it defend itself against these attacks? If it builds barriers and controls checkpoints, it's accused of "collective punishment". If it goes directly after the terrorists, it's accused of "targeted assassinations." The terrorists literally surround themselves with children and other non-combatants, so invariably some poor soul is caught in the crossfire, and Israel is blamed for "massacring" civilians.

The real issue is that the simple presence of a Jewish State in that region represents an unbearable "humiliation" for the Arabs, and their only recourse is to destroy the source of their humiliation. How in the wide world do we change this attitude?


This is pretty much what I'd answer to this question
 
2008-02-04 04:12:33 PM
Tatsuma: They protested about them sending teenagers, not about suicide bombings, they were still fine with that

Actually, if you'd strain your intellect to read the entire article, you'll also see that a group of 60 protesters even took out a full page article in a Palestinian paper calling for an end to retaliatory violence.

Now it's time for you to condemn the Israeli tank killing 10 peaceful Palestinians protesting. It's that time, Zionist Entity. Can you really do it? Bets from the crowd?

Drakkenmaw: Given that the majority of people at least think they are sane, rational beings, would it not make sense to consider phrasing your arguments to take this into account and thus cater to the audience you are trying to present a position to? I

So I should pretend that insane, irrational people are lucid and logical for the purposes of pedagogy? But if I'm making such mistaken assumptions, I don't think my message will ever get across. "You can't reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into."
 
2008-02-04 04:13:21 PM
Jon Snow: Did you write that sincerely or ironically?


A little of both, a little of both. But what about the rest of what I said? You're for peace and sovereignty. Cool! But the occupation started when the Arabs sought to annihilate Israel in 1967. Since then, Israel has made peace with -- and even given land to! -- Arab countries who've repudiated their position that Israel must be destroyed. Israel, as you know, has made lasting peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan. The Palestinians, thus far, have refused.

Maybe they're the ones with the problem. That's why, after over forty years of enduring terrorism and murder, Israel might want to take a different tack.

The situation kid of reminds of that old Jack Handey Deep Thought: "Why can't the caterpillar and the ant be friends? One eats leaves, the other eats caterpillars. Oh, now I see." The Israeli position is that its people must be kept safe, but also that, hopefully, a peaceful, side-by-side co-existence is possible. The Hamas position is "Kill the Joos!"

That's why, in this instance, peace and sovereignty might run in opposite directions. Israel has learned -- and continues to learn -- that Arab sovereignty hasn't always been conducive to peace. Also, since Hamas is committed to war against the Israeli people, it's not clear that they deserve sovereignty at all.
 
2008-02-04 04:13:29 PM
Jon Snow: If that seems so, I apologize. It isn't my intent. I acknowledge that barring some sea change in the peace process, withdrawal will lead to more attacks with the likely consequences of more deaths on both sides in the short term.

It certainly will not lead to more deaths on the Israeli side than it would if the Palestinians got a state and free range to attack Israel, and the Palestinians killed twice as many Palestinians last year than Israel did, and Israel was incredibly accurate with 2-3% of airstrikes' casualties being civilians.

So, yeah, I fail to see how your solution will lead to anything but more dead Jews, less peace and another dictatorship funding terrorism in the Middle-East

If you are interested in real peace in the Middle-East, concentrate on changing the Palestinian society.
 
2008-02-04 04:14:38 PM
czarangelus: Actually, if you'd strain your intellect to read the entire article, you'll also see that a group of 60 protesters even took out a full page article in a Palestinian paper calling for an end to retaliatory violence.

Since when 60 people buying an ad in the newspaper = a thousand peaceful protesters protesting against suicide bombings?
 
2008-02-04 04:17:34 PM
Tatsuma: Since when 60 people buying an ad in the newspaper = a thousand peaceful protesters protesting against suicide bombings?

Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.

This morning's bombing in Dimonia I condemn. It did nothing to put food on Palestinian tables, it did nothing to remove corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office. It did not put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire, or air strikes. It did nothing to benefit the Palestinian people, or defend them. My regrets to the Israeli families victimized by this attack.
 
2008-02-04 04:17:45 PM
czarangelus: Tatsuma: I'll comment right after you find me a link of a thousand palestinians+ protesting suicide bombings.

Palestinians protest use of teenagers for bombings

Now comment, biatch.




OK, may I try?

From the article you reference:

"Mrs. Abdo, in a view echoed by many others, made clear that she opposed only those suicide attacks carried out by under age bombers. ''Maybe if he is 20, then perhaps I could understand,'' she said of her own son. ''At that age, they know what they are doing, they are fighting for their homeland.''

She added: ''We are living in a big jail, and some people are pushed to do this. We don't have any other means to defend ourselves.''

The clusters of young men who gathered in the street outside the family home expressed the same sentiment. ''I don't think anyone here opposes these attacks because of the situation the Israelis have put us in,'' said Muhammad Zeidal, 20, a university student. ''But to use someone his age is very, very wrong.''



In the US, you need to be 21 to drink. In the Palestinian territories, you should be at least 21 before you try to murder Jews.
 
2008-02-04 04:19:15 PM
czarangelus: So I should pretend that insane, irrational people are lucid and logical for the purposes of pedagogy? But if I'm making such mistaken assumptions, I don't think my message will ever get across. "You can't reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into."

If they're insane, irrational people... why are you trying to logically present an argument to them? You're obviously trying to convince someone of something, because you've been making arguments and debate points all thread long. Yet if you've written off the ability of people to rationally consider what you're saying, you might as well replace all the words you've said in this thread with "EEP OPP ORK AH AH" - because, obviously, it has the same overall meaning to your audience.

Would you mind explaining?
 
2008-02-04 04:20:02 PM
czarangelus: This morning's bombing in Dimonia I condemn. It did nothing to put food on Palestinian tables, it did nothing to remove corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office. It did not put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire, or air strikes. It did nothing to benefit the Palestinian people, or defend them. My regrets to the Israeli families victimized by this attack.

It it did help to put food on the Palestinian tables, or it removed corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office, r put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire or air strikes, or it did something to benefit the Palestinian people, or it defended them...

would you still condemn it?

Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.

PS: Bwahaha
 
2008-02-04 04:20:34 PM
Tatsuma: Since when 60 people buying an ad in the newspaper = a thousand peaceful protesters protesting against suicide bombings?

Like the tip of an iceberg, huh...
 
2008-02-04 04:21:09 PM
identicalcrane: Like the tip of an iceberg, huh...

You know we Jews don't believe in tips
 
2008-02-04 04:21:34 PM
czarangelus: Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.

Daaaaayum!
 
2008-02-04 04:22:10 PM
Drakkenmaw: If they're insane, irrational people... why are you trying to logically present an argument to them?

Not most of the time. Most of the time I couch my views in extreme forms of rhetoric and sophistry. It gets an emotional reaction out of people, which is the closest you can come to directly challenging their beliefs (which are based on emotion rather than fact.)

Drakkenmaw: Yet if you've written off the ability of people to rationally consider what you're saying, you might as well replace all the words you've said in this thread with "EEP OPP ORK AH AH" - because, obviously, it has the same overall meaning to your audience.

I try to directly target the emotional states from which certain entities' political views are derived. I have tried arguing with logic and factual sources for some time, and then I came to the realization 1) people don't make decisions logically 2) the basis for almost all their beliefs comes from emotional reaction to propaganda. So, I believe that emotional propaganda will develop my long-term goals better than logical argument will, despite having received years of formal training in philosophy.
 
2008-02-04 04:23:16 PM
Tatsuma: It it did help to put food on the Palestinian tables, or it removed corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office, r put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire or air strikes, or it did something to benefit the Palestinian people, or it defended them...

would you still condemn it?


No. Like I've said, I believe in results. I condemn this suicide bombing on the exact same basis I've used to condemn Israeli air strikes - they do not and will not achieve peace and prosperity for either the Israeli nor the Palestinian peoples.
 
2008-02-04 04:25:27 PM
czarangelus: No.

Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.


Tatsuma: Bwahaha
 
2008-02-04 04:26:08 PM
czarangelus, so what's your solution to the palestinian/israel conflict, anyhow? i'm interested.
 
2008-02-04 04:26:12 PM
Jon Snow: DragonFarked: you seem to be glossing over the fact that it will be horrific.

If that seems so, I apologize. It isn't my intent. I acknowledge that barring some sea change in the peace process, withdrawal will lead to more attacks with the likely consequences of more deaths on both sides in the short term. I certainly have no desire for these deaths to happen as much as I do believe that it will prevent deaths in long run. But continuing the Occupation hasn't stopped the violence and the Palestinian people remain stateless and unequal.


Alright. I think I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this. When I say it will be horrific, I really do mean it will be horrific. Palestinians are the ones that need to accept the fact that they can have these things. Until the Palestinians wake up and realize this for themselves, your two solutions only really equal death and more death. Both options I find ideologically unacceptable.

Read the last link Czar put up about the protesting of teenage suicide bombers. The article stated that the idea of suicide bombing is debated privately among Palestinians but teenagers doing this was unacceptable. They debate the policy of walking into a theater, or market with a bomb strapped to themselves privately. I know all Palestinians are not bombers but, the lack of a national debate on the practice is unsettling to say the least. Then you look at the last election they had and who they voted into office, well it's a bit more unsettling to say the least.
 
2008-02-04 04:27:15 PM
czarangelus: Not most of the time. Most of the time I couch my views in extreme forms of rhetoric and sophistry. It gets an emotional reaction out of people, which is the closest you can come to directly challenging their beliefs (which are based on emotion rather than fact.)

I try to directly target the emotional states from which certain entities' political views are derived. I have tried arguing with logic and factual sources for some time, and then I came to the realization 1) people don't make decisions logically 2) the basis for almost all their beliefs comes from emotional reaction to propaganda. So, I believe that emotional propaganda will develop my long-term goals better than logical argument will, despite having received years of formal training in philosophy.


To me, this reads as a very convoluted way of saying "I'm trolling." Maybe that's your intent, I don't know, but it would quite adequately explain much of your style of discourse.
 
2008-02-04 04:28:07 PM
Smirkles

i'll take out the emotion and try to address the most controversial point i think you make

let's make a comparison between hamas and, say, irish groups. it's flawed on many levels, but may be good enough here. these are ideological, political groups, on the one hand, and criminal groups, on the other. they are willing to use what we call terrorism to achieve their political goals. as with all such groups, the distinction between "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" is really just one of whose side one is on

these groups are a problem. why are they a problem? because they have support. what do they need to do to maintain that support? they need oppression to justify their own position

much of the hamas leadership want israel to use excessive force. they are not peacemakers. they don't want a resolution. they need a long, drawn-out subjugation

it is up to the west to draw out the moderates
 
2008-02-04 04:28:51 PM
czarangelus: Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.

This morning's bombing in Dimonia I condemn. It did nothing to put food on Palestinian tables, it did nothing to remove corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office. It did not put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire, or air strikes. It did nothing to benefit the Palestinian people, or defend them. My regrets to the Israeli families victimized by this attack.



This is ethically shakey. An example of the "Hanan Ashwari Defense": I am against suicide bombings because they are an ineffective tactic.

Not because they're evil or morally repugnant, but just "ineffective".
 
2008-02-04 04:30:36 PM
DragonFarked: Then you look at the last election they had and who they voted into office, well it's a bit more unsettling to say the least.

Link: An al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades statement said it carried out Monday's attack in Dimona jointly with the the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Brigades of United Resistance, a previously unknown group.

So your good friend, leader of the Palestinian Authority Abbas, is in on it too. Fatah is just as responsible for bombings as Hamas. If Fatah had won the election, Israel's response to Palestine would be exactly the same today. They'd cry how "Palestinians voted for terrorism!" and Hamas would be the so-called Palestinian peace partner.

awesome pun: czarangelus, so what's your solution to the palestinian/israel conflict, anyhow? i'm interested.

I'll accept a few possibilities.
1) The dissolution of Israel as a "Jewish state" and a new democratic state including all territory with universal citizenship.
2) Gaza becoming part of Egypt and West Bank becoming part of Jordan. This doesn't look too likely at the moment, due to how this would destabilize the respective regimes.
3) A free and independent Palestine, with no walls, under no blockade, no air strikes and no assassinations.

I'm less concerned with the political solution than I am with conditions actually on the ground.
 
2008-02-04 04:30:39 PM
joshik72: This is ethically shakey. An example of the "Hanan Ashwari Defense": I am against suicide bombings because they are an ineffective tactic.

Not because they're evil or morally repugnant, but just "ineffective".


He already stated that he would support them if they were effective, and even that he would himself send 12 year old boys to blow themselves up if he was Palestinian
 
2008-02-04 04:31:11 PM
Tatsuma: If you are interested in real peace in the Middle-East, concentrate on changing the Palestinian society.

That is absolutely necessary as well for lasting peace.
 
2008-02-04 04:31:21 PM
joshik72:
One of the large problems is that Israel is being asked to relinquish a real, tangible asset (land) for something intangible (recognition and peace). Peace and recognition can be revoked at anytime, whereas land can't.

Let's take Gaza as a test case. Everyone demands that Israel pulls out of the Occupied Territories. So Israel enters Gaza and forcibly removes (ethnically cleanses!) all of the Jews who had been living there for the past 20-odd years. There are now no longer any Jews living in Gaza. The exchange price for that upheaval was supposed to be an decrease in violence (land for security/peace). In exchange for pulling the Jews out of Gaza, Israel now receives hundreds of rocket/missile attacks per month (on Jan. 17, 2008, over 100 rockets were launched into Sderot).

What should Israel do? How does it defend itself against these attacks? If it builds barriers and controls checkpoints, it's accused of "collective punishment". If it goes directly after the terrorists, it's accused of "targeted assassinations." The terrorists literally surround themselves with children and other non-combatants, so invariably some poor soul is caught in the crossfire, and Israel is blamed for "massacring" civilians.

The real issue is that the simple presence of a Jewish State in that region represents an unbearable "humiliation" for the Arabs, and their only recourse is to destroy the source of their humiliation. How in the wide world do we change this attitude?


Way to cut through all the crap and get down to the issue. Excellent post sir
 
2008-02-04 04:33:31 PM
Drakkenmaw: To me, this reads as a very convoluted way of saying "I'm trolling." Maybe that's your intent, I don't know, but it would quite adequately explain much of your style of discourse.

Well, a troll is someone who attempts to illicit a certain emotional response in order to amuse themselves. I am using emotion-based arguments to attack other, emotion-based arguments. You'll never win by arguing logic to an emotion.

joshik72: czarangelus: Then let me go ahead and demonstrate why I'm your ethical superior.

This morning's bombing in Dimonia I condemn. It did nothing to put food on Palestinian tables, it did nothing to remove corrupt and cowardly Palestinian traitors like Abbas from office. It did not put an end to Israeli missiles, tank fire, or air strikes. It did nothing to benefit the Palestinian people, or defend them. My regrets to the Israeli families victimized by this attack.


This is ethically shakey. An example of the "Hanan Ashwari Defense": I am against suicide bombings because they are an ineffective tactic.

Not because they're evil or morally repugnant, but just "ineffective".


Well, let's say you're arguing with an actual, honest-to-god Germany circa 1939 Nazi. You can't make a moral argument to a Nazi - they have a completely different set of assumptions. The best argument you can make against an actual Nazi would be an empirical argument, an argument against gassing the Jews based on efficiency and logic. You could not convince a Nazi that Jews aren't corrupting German society from the inside, but you might convince a Nazi that taking a bunch of doctors, lawyers, engineers, and physicists and shooting them is really, really stupid - especially during war time.
 
2008-02-04 04:33:34 PM
Jon Snow: That is absolutely necessary as well for lasting peace.

It's not "necessary as well", it's the ONLY thing that will lead to peace.

If you are really interested in peace, start with the Palestinians, not Israelis.
 
2008-02-04 04:41:04 PM
czarangelus:
I guess you're not talking about me, since I'm a radical empiricist. I believe that all sensory data has equal validity, including dreams, hallucinations, and other widely-dismissed data sets.


Okay, I guess that explains a lot. Dreams and hallucinations are as valid as reality. I'm gonna go fall asleep in the teapot now, and the Cheshire Cat can wake me up in a while...

/has never had "involuntary" psychiatric experience
//psych students may be neurotic, but the physics department has the best parties
 
2008-02-04 04:43:34 PM
czarangelus: DragonFarked: Then you look at the last election they had and who they voted into office, well it's a bit more unsettling to say the least.

Link: An al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades statement said it carried out Monday's attack in Dimona jointly with the the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine and the Brigades of United Resistance, a previously unknown group.

So your good friend, leader of the Palestinian Authority Abbas, is in on it too. Fatah is just as responsible for bombings as Hamas. If Fatah had won the election, Israel's response to Palestine would be exactly the same today. They'd cry how "Palestinians voted for terrorism!" and Hamas would be the so-called Palestinian peace partner.

You know I was almost ready to agree with you then I didn't stop after the second period. Totally my fault.
Czar is it worth my time to debate you? I'm thinking not considering your disregard for events during that election. Let me just state that
"Israel's response to Palestine would be exactly the same today. They'd cry how "Palestinians voted for terrorism!" and Hamas would be the so-called Palestinian peace partner."
Is short sighted and untrue. I don't want to have man love with Fatah but, after Arafat's death, they were the hope for a Palestine that could have been in our generation. To bad the Palestinians (as a collective population) chose to elect a government who's stated goal was the destruction of Israel.
 
2008-02-04 04:47:10 PM
DragonFarked: Is short sighted and untrue. I don't want to have man love with Fatah but, after Arafat's death, they were the hope for a Palestine that could have been in our generation.

What, that they could continue to be robbed and manipulated by a new Fatah figurehead? Is that their hope of the generation? Fatah was shiat, is shiat, and always will be shiat. I don't know why Israel is pretending to do business with them, it just damages their already tarnished credibility to whatever extent still possible.

DragonFarked: To bad the Palestinians (as a collective population) chose to elect a government who's stated goal was the destruction of Israel.

Palestine has no government. Per Israeli/US/UK Axis orders, Abbas refused to accept a quorum with Hamas legislature. The Palestinian government has no goal as there is no government which could have one. Hamas' charter doesn't really interest me, as they simply don't have enough power to carry out their threats and never will either. Israel shouldn't bomb a KKK meeting in Idaho just because they chant "Death to Israel!" and not every threat is equally credible.
 
2008-02-04 04:47:32 PM
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1754847,00.html

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. 'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3496947,00.html

Olmert promised that, "We will not let the residents of Gaza lead a comfortable and pleasant life" while the residents of Sderot walk around in fear.
"As far as I am concerned, all of Gaza's residents can walk," he added.


In the past FOUR YEARS, according to the Israeli human rights organization B'Tselem, homemade Palestinian rockets have killed thirteen Israelis.

While Israeli forces have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in the occupied territories in the past two years alone, almost half of them civilians, including some 200 children.


You are being duped, people.

Cue Tatsuma, Defender of Monsters.
 
2008-02-04 04:48:37 PM
czarangelus: I'll accept a few possibilities.
1) The dissolution of Israel as a "Jewish state" and a new democratic state including all territory with universal citizenship.


And I am sure this new state would include a "right of return" for people who were displaced. Conveniently, many of whom will have never actually had any connection to "Palestine" but they will insist and I am sure you would concede the point.

In a short amount of time, Muslims outnumber Jews at which point they hold a national vote to rule the "democratic state" under Islamic Law and in accordance with that law either exterminate the Jews or in the case of the more liberal, make them second class citizens.

2) Gaza becoming part of Egypt and West Bank becoming part of Jordan. This doesn't look too likely at the moment, due to how this would destabilize the respective regimes.

This would be the best option; given that really thats how it should be.

3) A free and independent Palestine, with no walls, under no blockade, no air strikes and no assassinations.

And no restrictions on carrying suicide bombings, rocket attacks, etc....

I'm less concerned with the political solution than I am with conditions actually on the ground.

Obviously not. Since The Palestinians were offered citizenship in Israel... they said no. Thus bringing us back to the current situation.

Illiterate Electronic Intifada member who lacks a 'shift' key:i would suggest you, for one. but, do you think that displaying it like that makes it easier, or harder, to read and discuss?

/it seems to me like you tatsuma are taking rather a lot of dramatic license, at the expense of honest discussion. are you his right-hand propagandist?


Trolls are usually at least funny. You're just a racist douchenozzle. You wanted links, I gave you links. Reading or not reading is your problem. Facts are facts, just because you and czarangilus are delusional and create your own realities doesn't mean everyone else does.
 
2008-02-04 04:49:06 PM
jakomo002: While Israeli forces have killed more than 1,000 Palestinians in the occupied territories in the past two years alone, almost half of them civilians, including some 200 children.

Oh give me a farking break. Give me some statistics. Now.

ESPECIALLY about half of them being civilian. Around 300 Palestinians were killed in 2007, a minority of them "children" (17 year old firing at IDF troops are still counted as children" and the civilian casualties were minimal.
 
2008-02-04 04:49:32 PM
This thread needs moar pics of beautiful Israeli womenz...
 
2008-02-04 04:49:49 PM
Tatsuma: Jon Snow: That is absolutely necessary as well for lasting peace.

It's not "necessary as well", it's the ONLY thing that will lead to peace.

If you are really interested in peace, start with the Palestinians, not Israelis.



I don't see any Palestinians posting on this board. As I asked earlier (although I can see where you might miss it) what can Israel do? The current approach is not working. There have to be more effective tactics Israel can use. But so far in this and every other discussion I have yet to see you acknowledge Israel has any blame at all in this situation in this or any other thread. At least people on the other side are paying lip service to suicide bombings being bad. All you seem to do is justify Israel's current actions which clearly aren't working because both Israelis and Palestinians are still dying in violent conflict. I've heard the definition of insanity is trying the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
 
2008-02-04 04:50:20 PM
Meh, the Palestinians are pawns. They're kept in abject poverty by their corrupt leaders to fan the hatred of Israel. This conflict could have been over for decades by now but the Palestinian leaders are too busy lining their own pockets to help their people.

"It's Israel's fault you don't have a job or an education, pay no attention to my 10 mistresses or my new 3 new Mercedes or the truckload of rockets"
 
2008-02-04 04:51:14 PM
Peppermint Rose: what can Israel do?

Nothing, really.

As long as change doesn't come from within the Palestinian society itself

Cheeze It: This thread needs moar pics of beautiful Israeli womenz...

The place you are searching for is 4chan
 
2008-02-04 04:51:52 PM
czarangelus: Well, a troll is someone who attempts to illicit a certain emotional response in order to amuse themselves. I am using emotion-based arguments to attack other, emotion-based arguments. You'll never win by arguing logic to an emotion.

You don't win by arguing emotions to emotions either. Especially if they're two different emotionally-centered beliefs, since people are entirely capable of writing off the beliefs of someone else while holding theirs inviolate. All trying to fight an emotion with another emotion gets you are holy wars and dueling iconoclasts, because it's easy to dismiss someone else's emotional reasoning. It's based on nothing but emotion, after all.

Have you tried the argument from agreement yet? It's the best way I have found for getting people to examine cognitive dissonance - agree with some of their stated beliefs and positions, and then point out where some of their own statements conflict with their own beliefs. It's why I quote scripture to evangelicals. If you find something that someone holds as an inviolate truth, you can point out where it disagrees with some of their other held opinions. Typically, they'll reassess the conflicting opinions to concur with that which they hold as unassailable.

So... have you tried studying the Torah?
 
2008-02-04 04:53:15 PM
GoddessPrime: Meh, the Palestinians are pawns. They're kept in abject poverty by their corrupt leaders to fan the hatred of Israel. This conflict could have been over for decades by now but the Palestinian leaders are too busy lining their own pockets to help their people.

"It's Israel's fault you don't have a job or an education, pay no attention to my 10 mistresses or my new 3 new Mercedes or the truckload of rockets"


THIS.

And, unfortunately, they elect 'em and glorify 'em, just like the US elected Bush and glorifies Paris Hilton.
 
2008-02-04 04:54:08 PM
GoddessPrime: Meh, the Palestinians are pawns. They're kept in abject poverty by their corrupt leaders to fan the hatred of Israel. This conflict could have been over for decades by now but the Palestinian leaders are too busy lining their own pockets to help their people.

Israelis are pawns too. The "defense" industry of the US/UK/Israel Axis needs enemies to function. Something like a grand total of six Israeli civilians have been killed this year. What is six trailer trash Eastern European Jews, when we're talking about tens of billions of dollars in arms sales? Jewish/Israeli civilians are used as meat shields for the agenda of Axis weapons contractors. Dead Israeli civilians aren't just a regrettable result of US/UK/Israel Axis policy, they're intrinsic to that policy being carried out. Provoke the Palestinians with blockades and airstrikes, and then parade dead Eastern European Jews around on international tv to justify the latest package of arms sales.
 
2008-02-04 04:55:27 PM
czarangelus: What is six trailer trash Eastern European Jews,

"I don't hate Jews, I'm just oppose Israel!" dur dur dur.
 
2008-02-04 04:58:46 PM
DragonFarked: Alright. I think I'll have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

I think we probably disagree on what the Palestinian people desire and what the Palestinian "leadership" is willing to do, as well as disagreeing on what Israel's obligations are.

If a virus wiped out the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank, I believe that Israel would still be obligated to either formally annex the Territories and grant equal rights to all who live there regardless of race, religion, sexuality, etc. or with draw back to its own borders.

The issue of the status of the residents of that land wouldn't disappear with the Palestinians themselves, let alone Palestinian violence.

I don't really think I will have the time to get into the issue of the Occupation versus anti-Israeli terrorism/violence, but suffice to say that while I believe that the Occupation is a powerful indoctrination tool I do not believe that solving the issue of Palestinian statehood would bring puppies and rainbows and end the violence. I don't mind if anyone disagrees with my ideas on what Israel's obligations are, or what the Palestinian reaction to statehood would be as long as they don't frame it in terms of me being "fine with" Jew killing.

I believe that the political organs of both societies are creating unnecessary hardship for their citizens because they both have much to lose from peace. The militant groups in Palestine would likely lose much or all of their illicit funding and arms and would turn the discontent of the Palestinians on their own corruption. Israel's practical need to control and have access to the West Bank's water and to allow settlement outside of the Green line to appease its religious fanatics that are deluded into believing that a tribal deity promised land to them wouldn't simply cease with Palestinian non-violence. There are deeper issues than simply terrorism and sovereignty.

Obviously the issue is complex and my posts seem to be focused on but one side of a multifaceted issue. That is the unfortunate consequence of forum-style posting. We have to pick a much more superficial presentation of our thoughts than most of us probably like.
 
2008-02-04 05:00:00 PM
Tatsuma: "I don't hate Jews, I'm just oppose Israel!" dur dur dur.

I wonder if you'll ever figure out how easily to manipulate you are.
 
2008-02-04 05:05:38 PM
Illicit: illegal, forbidden, as in, "The Congressman had illicit sex in the supply room."

Elicit: to draw forth, as in, "It is my hope that pointing out this error will elicit a greater understanding of the difference between these homophones."
 
2008-02-04 05:05:46 PM
Tatsuma: Oh give me a farking break. Give me some statistics. Now.

ESPECIALLY about half of them being civilian. Around 300 Palestinians were killed in 2007, a minority of them "children" (17 year old firing at IDF troops are still counted as children" and the civilian casualties were minimal.


Certainly. I will be happy to oblige. Most of it from the Israeli human rights organization Btselem. See the link for statistics

http://www.btselem.org/english/Statistics/Casualties.asp


http://www.btselem.org/Download/200705_Gaza_Insert_eng.pdf

I am anxious to hear from you how this is evidence that Btselem are Jewhaters for reporting facts.
 
2008-02-04 05:22:58 PM
jakomo002: Certainly.

All the sudden it is very quiet in here...
 
2008-02-04 05:25:09 PM
identicalcrane: All the sudden it is very quiet in here...

For real.

I'm hoping it's because everyone is checking out Btselem's website and learning a few new things about the Occupation.

Sometimes I forget this is Fark.... There's probably a good boobie thread somewhere.
 
2008-02-04 05:25:47 PM
So these guys have been at war for how many years now?

"Special Report: Water Still Wet!"

/no longer news
 
2008-02-04 05:27:13 PM
czarangelus: Well, let's say you're arguing with an actual, honest-to-god Germany circa 1939 Nazi. You can't make a moral argument to a Nazi - they have a completely different set of assumptions. The best argument you can make against an actual Nazi would be an empirical argument, an argument against gassing the Jews based on efficiency and logic. You could not convince a Nazi that Jews aren't corrupting German society from the inside, but you might convince a Nazi that taking a bunch of doctors, lawyers, engineers, and physicists and shooting them is really, really stupid - especially during war time.


If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you must use adopt your opponent's mind-set in order to make arguments that the opponent can understand. In the Nazi worldview, since Jews were evil, the Nazis were morally correct (from their standpoint) in murdering them. Since the German personality places a high value on "efficiency and logic", an argument that appeals to efficiency and logic should be more effective: "you should not kill Jews because they are the brilliant physicists who can build you an A-Bomb before the Allies get one." OK - I'll buy that line of reasoning.

So how does this work with the Palestinians/Arabs? We (Jews, Christians, the West) operate on a guilt-based system. The Arabs operate on a shame-based system. A guilt-based system leads to questions like "who is responsible", and ultimately toward a legal system of justice. A person/group who utilizes a shame-based system (in my opinion) has an internal "honor" scale that must remain balanced for him and his immediate family/relatives/group/clan. If he is "dishonored", then the scale is thrown out of balance, resulting in "humiliation". In this system, humiliation is intolerable and must be eradicated at all costs, in order to restore the balance.

Let's take a horrible example: your daughter is sexually attacked. In a Western culture, the imperative would be to find out who did it, and bring them to justice, where they would receive the appropriate punishment. In a shame-based society, the daughter's attack brings shame upon the entire family (and clan). In order to erase the shame and restore the familie's honor, the daughter must be put to death. This, in fact, happens quite often.

Again, let's return to the Gaza situation. Hamas refused (and refuses) to recognize Israel as a State. So Israel says "fine, we're going to act unilaterally and pull our citizens out of Gaza." The Palestinians are still pissed, even after Israel has left, because they did not have the opportunity to chase them out, thus restoring their sense of honor. In order for the Palestinians to overcome their humiliation and restore their sense of balance, they must impose an equal or greater humiliation on their enemy. They wouldn't have been happy unless they chased or drove the Jews out. The Israelis denied them this by pulling out in a unilateral fashion.

So what should Israel have done? I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to have an Army psyops unit to just go on TV and start crying, look humiliated, and say "waaah - we're scared, and they're kicking our asses". Would that make the Palestinians feel better about themselves?

I'm not saying that facetiously... how do we let the Palestinians regain their sense of honor, short of allowing Israel to be destroyed? Because it really seems that no matter what Israel does, their presence is a source of humiliation for the Arabs in every aspect: Israel is a swinging, powerful, productive, democratic nation (with hot IDF girls). They grow trees, build computers, etc... So I can see that whenever an Arab looks at Israel, they feel a bit humiliated. How do we change this destructive behavior?

I don't think I'm being too nutty with these thoughts. Check for yourself: in any article you read concerning the Palestinians, you'll see words like "humiliation" and "honor"... definite signs that they are working from a shame-based mentality.
 
2008-02-04 05:28:38 PM
Tatsuma: Jon Snow: That is absolutely necessary as well for lasting peace.

It's not "necessary as well", it's the ONLY thing that will lead to peace.

If you are really interested in peace, start with the Palestinians, not Israelis.


I think the point is that neither the actions of the Palestinians nor the actions of the Israelis are occurring in a vacuum, and that the policies that guide both sides lead to the same consequences, time and time again.

The Palestinians are probably not going to just spontaneously transform into peace loving people. Their society is too fractured, their leaders too corrupt, and hatred of Israel too ingrained.

There are actions that Israel can take to increase the likelihood of change in the Palestinians, but the cost of taking those actions is bound to result in more dead Israelis.

That's a bad thing.

But the current situation continuing on indefinitely, for generation after generation, is an even *worse* thing.

Sometimes the people in the best position to fix a problem are not the ones who caused the problem. That's unfair, and it sucks. But that seems to be the situation.
 
2008-02-04 05:31:03 PM
Tatsuma: Peppermint Rose: what can Israel do?

Nothing, really.

As long as change doesn't come from within the Palestinian society itself

Cheeze It: This thread needs moar pics of beautiful Israeli womenz...

The place you are searching for is 4chan


This is why there is still a problem. You've basically said Israel is helpless. It's like a person in a job they hate. It's easier to whine than to actually work to improve the situation and this is why I'm returning to lurking in these threads. The pro-Israel side won't admit they have any blame and the pro-Palestinian side won't admit they have any blame either and the extremes spend so much time yelling at each other they drown out any moderate voices. Grow up into the adults you both are claiming to be already.
 
2008-02-04 05:33:51 PM
joshik72: I'm not saying that facetiously... how do we let the Palestinians regain their sense of honor, short of allowing Israel to be destroyed?

And that is a good question, and one that is not being asked by any of the Western media outlets or politicians. However, it will also be difficult to restore the Palestinian sense of honor and pride while denying them the right of return, or keeping them in cities surrounded by 15 foot tall concrete walls. There has to be progress on the ground first.

joshik72: So I can see that whenever an Arab looks at Israel, they feel a bit humiliated.

This also explains why the entire Arab world took up the cause of Hezbollah when Israel attacked Lebanon - by driving the IDF out of Lebanon, they proved than an Arab militia really can hold its own and defend itself against Western aggression.
 
2008-02-04 05:34:56 PM
GoddessPrime: Meh, the Palestinians are pawns. They're kept in abject poverty by their corrupt leaders to fan the hatred of Israel. This conflict could have been over for decades by now but the Palestinian leaders are too busy lining their own pockets to help their people.

"It's Israel's fault you don't have a job or an education, pay no attention to my 10 mistresses or my new 3 new Mercedes or the truckload of rockets"


And that's why Hamas was elected into office...
 
2008-02-04 05:45:46 PM
//begin threadjack

img357.imageshack.us

Yes, the boy has the bike on the wrong sort of road:

pages.usiouxfalls.edu

Catenary roads FTW!

//end threadjack
 
2008-02-04 05:53:21 PM
The Voice of Sarcastic Reason: I think the point is that neither the actions of the Palestinians nor the actions of the Israelis are occurring in a vacuum, and that the policies that guide both sides lead to the same consequences, time and time again.

The Palestinians are probably not going to just spontaneously transform into peace loving people. Their society is too fractured, their leaders too corrupt, and hatred of Israel too ingrained.

There are actions that Israel can take to increase the likelihood of change in the Palestinians, but the cost of taking those actions is bound to result in more dead Israelis.

That's a bad thing.

But the current situation continuing on indefinitely, for generation after generation, is an even *worse* thing.

Sometimes the people in the best position to fix a problem are not the ones who caused the problem. That's unfair, and it sucks. But that seems to be the situation.


Thank you for taking the time to read what I actually wrote. I appreciate it. :)
 
2008-02-04 05:53:39 PM
Sigh.

With no Squatsuma, it ain't the same...
 
2008-02-04 06:43:37 PM
Peppermint Rose: I usually just lurk in these threads because no one seems to listen to anything anyone else says. But I have a question for everyone (especially Tatsuma since he seems the most vocal and constant presence) who is saying any solution that anyone else suggests Israel taking will result in more Israeli deaths and the Palestinians have to make all the changes etc. Everyone seems to be agreed that the current state of affairs is not good for either party. What can Israel do that will help the current situation? I'm not asking about what the Palestinians can do because it's pretty obvious that non-violent protest would be the way to go on their end but I have yet to see anyone suggest something similarly reasonable and workable for Israel. If you say there's nothing else Israel can do you lose all credibility with me at least because there are 2 sides involved in this dispute. Both sides can positively or negatively affect the situation. So let's hear it what can Israel do that will result in a better situation for all involved?

Israel could tell the Palestineans that they have 1 month to curb the bomb tossers, and then declare war, and roll right on in there. I'd have no problem, honestly. Differentiating between "terrorist acts" and "acts of war" is useless. The Palenstinean people are behind the bombers. Bombers just don't magically end up with bombs; they need money, training and supplies.. and that comes from the peoples support.

Terrorism is changing the way we fight war. If we don't change with it, they'll just continue to pick us off one by one. No sense in demonizing them as evil or whatnot; they're just fighting over the same resources as we are. They just won't get it. We have to do something to fight back, and the old style of Army vs. Army and the notion that somehow that is more noble will only cause us losses.
 
2008-02-04 06:47:03 PM
As this thread slowly dies off I just wanted to thank Jon Snow and joshik72 for their well reasoned posts. You two made this thread a more interesting and informative read for me.
 
2008-02-04 07:02:44 PM
ok whats with all this isreal vs palestine? Bring back the hot chicks ;(
 
2008-02-04 07:24:50 PM
Tatsuma: Video of Palestinans children giving flowers and candies to passerbys, people wishing for more suicide attacks until all the Jews are killed.

Eliminate those inhuman roadblocks!! Tear down the wall!!

Mr.Zemme: The thing he doesn't tell you is that you have to be Jewish. Also, between the ages of 18-26. I just got back from the same trip less than a month ago, it was AMAZING.

Birthright trips are pretty cool, yeah


Darn. Could you just pretend to be Jewish and young? I'd really like to see your country, but my fundage is low :(
 
2008-02-04 07:39:38 PM
Id like to thank Tatsuma, who again didnt disappoint.

And of course Czar, without him Tatsuma wouldnt stay as long.

Thank you both, I really hope one day the mantle of peace would cover you both.

Would be fun if you would both turn gay and marry one another.
 
2008-02-04 08:18:38 PM
> Anyone can help.


Including Usama bin Laden, who is worth millions of dollars.

Why isn't he out helping his fellow muslims?
 
2008-02-04 08:59:30 PM
fark80: Including Usama bin Laden, who is worth millions of dollars.

Why isn't he out helping his fellow muslims?


He would say that he was by attacking America and its interests. The real answer, as many have stated, is that the Palestinians are used by many Muslims as a tool to breed hatred for Israel, the West, America, and Jews and it seems very few in the Arab/Muslim worlds care about actually helping them.

Just a point of interest, Bin Laden's inherited assets were frozen back in 1998, IIRC.
 
2008-02-04 09:23:29 PM
The problem in the area isn't Israel or Palestine- it's everybody else! Back the fark off and let them fight it out! Both sides are guilty! Quit choosing sides and just admit that jews and muslims are both basically crazy (just like christians, scientologists, buddhists, and anyone else who believes in an invisible man in the sky or any other spiritual BS). There are flaws in their cultures and all the diplomacy in the world won't make it any better. Sometimes the best way to kill two birds with one stone is to just let them peck each other's eyes out.

/what's hotter than IDF girls?
//IDF girls fresh from the oven...
 
2008-02-04 10:05:52 PM
joshik72: I'm not saying that facetiously... how do we let the Palestinians regain their sense of honor, short of allowing Israel to be destroyed?

And that is a good question, and one that is not being asked by any of the Western media outlets or politicians. However, it will also be difficult to restore the Palestinian sense of honor and pride while denying them the right of return, or keeping them in cities surrounded by 15 foot tall concrete walls. There has to be progress on the ground first.

joshik72: So I can see that whenever an Arab looks at Israel, they feel a bit humiliated.

This also explains why the entire Arab world took up the cause of Hezbollah when Israel attacked Lebanon - by driving the IDF out of Lebanon, they proved than an Arab militia really can hold its own and defend itself against Western aggression.


The Palestinian cause and the notion of a Palestinian State began long before the inception of the Jewish homeland in Palestine as mandated by the Balfour Declariation. Palestinians have been promised an independant state since WWI and the ouster of the Ottomans, since the Peel Separation Act of 1937...
This has almost nothing to do with the Jews, it is a Nationalist cause at heart that has been mutated and diverted by extremists- the State of Israel, the rise of a Jewish nation of mostly immigrants, before the creation of an independant Palestine is a source of humiliation for them. Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, all mandated territories by the British or French, recieved thier promised independence, but not Palestine.

I am a Jew and a supporter of Israel, and I have lived in Israel. I strongly believe that a self-determinant and capable Palestinian state is the only way to peace. Could you imagine grocery shopping in fear every week? Palestinian or Jew- people still need to be able to go about their day with a relative sense of security and normality. It is a small person who will not allow another thier pride. A thriving state, I believe, is less of a threat than a crumbling territory.
(I have not spell checked this- if you wish to I'd be happy to hear about all of my petty errors)
 
2008-02-04 10:21:04 PM
SpongeBathSquarePants: Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, all mandated territories by the British or French, recieved thier promised independence, but not Palestine.

Lebanon, Syria, Iraq all received their promised independence, but not Palestine? Hmm, what country's name got left off that list? I know it starts with a J... It's in the same general vicinity as the other ones you mentioned... 60% of the people there are ethnic Palestinians... Can't think of it off hand...

I congratulate you on being Jewish and so knee-jerk liberal that you're willing to allow the only Jewish state in the world be destroyed so that yet another Arabic-speaking, predominantly Muslim state can be created on the land. That makes what, 21 of them? Plus 40 other countries that are predominantly Muslim? Save your sympathy for the Basques and the Kurds, ethnicities that really are stateless, not the made-up excuse to obliterate Israel known as Palestine.
 
2008-02-04 10:57:50 PM
clambam: I congratulate you on being Jewish and so knee-jerk liberal that you're willing to allow the only Jewish state in the world be destroyed so that yet another Arabic-speaking, predominantly Muslim state can be created on the land. That makes what, 21 of them? Plus 40 other countries that are predominantly Muslim? Save your sympathy for the Basques and the Kurds, ethnicities that really are stateless, not the made-up excuse to obliterate Israel known as Palestine.

Whose post are you addressing? It sure as hell doesn't sound like anything the person you quoted said.
 
2008-02-04 11:25:39 PM
Jon, Mr. SquarePants' post was deliberately obtuse. He omitted Jordan from his list of Arab states created in the wake of World War II--because it defeated his argument. He invented a pre-Balfour "notion" of a Palestinian state that the Ottoman Empire surely would have taken exception to. He ignored the fact that the West Bank before 1967 was a part of Jordan and thus part of a Palestinian homeland -- Jordan -- which the Jordanians refused to take back when given the opportunity. He states that the mere existence of a Jewish state is a source of "humiliation" to the Palestinians which must somehow be rectified (how, I wonder). He implies that the lack of "normality" in the West Bank is the exclusively the fault of Israel, ignoring the fact that the large number of terrorist attacks launched from that territory is what obliged the Israelis to close the borders in the first place. In other words, his post was a tissue of lies, omissions and half-truths calculated to cast the Palestinians as helpless victims and the Israelis as harsh invaders. I take exception to it and I question his motives.
 
2008-02-04 11:28:56 PM
clambam: SpongeBathSquarePants: Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, all mandated territories by the British or French, recieved thier promised independence, but not Palestine.

Lebanon, Syria, Iraq all received their promised independence, but not Palestine? Hmm, what country's name got left off that list? I know it starts with a J... It's in the same general vicinity as the other ones you mentioned... 60% of the people there are ethnic Palestinians... Can't think of it off hand...

I congratulate you on being Jewish and so knee-jerk liberal that you're willing to allow the only Jewish state in the world be destroyed so that yet another Arabic-speaking, predominantly Muslim state can be created on the land. That makes what, 21 of them? Plus 40 other countries that are predominantly Muslim? Save your sympathy for the Basques and the Kurds, ethnicities that really are stateless, not the made-up excuse to obliterate Israel known as Palestine.


Perhaps you are refering to the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan if that refreshes your memeory. Maybe my knee-jerking liberalism is the result of my education or first hand understanding that the world can not be treated like Risk board. It is not as simple as pouting and saying "but they have lots and we only have one," there must be hard concessions for peace based on an understanding of the historical realities of the region. Wanting something doesnt just entitle you to it. On the contrary, Israel does not have to destroy themselves, the areas that would be a Palestinian state are already Muslim in majority and largely self-governed. As a state, Palestine could be held accountable for its actions like any other. The wall would be more justifiable- as the one between the US and Mexico to prevent illegal activity from crossing international borders. I know that it is a hardship, but for now it is working. Infrastructure must be strengthened within the wall, however, and care must be taken not to needlessly cause blow-back by starving out those who have no connections to terrorism. Im not so much a knee-jerking liberal as a non-traditional nationalist. If you feel so strongly that Israel can be defended without the creation of a Palestinian state, go defend it! Your stance is easy to take when it is someone else's kid fighting in the territories.

In Jerusalem I bypassed a youth hostel in the Arab quarter because I already had plans to stay elsewhere with friends. The Arab man who ran the hostel said to me "All of you Americans think that we are terrorists. You dont have to be afraid to stay here." Maybe I was knee-jerkingly liberal when I saw the hurt in his eyes and his suffering business. Or maybe I am capable of compassion for another. Or perhaps I resented being lumped into "all americans" as much as he hated being lumped into the "terrorist palestinian" category.

Salahadin was a Kurd. It is sad what has happened to the ethnicity- I am curious why you would separate them out for sympathy but grant no understanding to the average Palestinian trying to get by. I havent studied Pais Vasco at length, and I do not know the history of Spain and the Pyrenees region to any length past Western History 151-152. You got me there. Congrats to you as well.
 
2008-02-04 11:39:56 PM
...And Gaza pre 1967 taken by Egypt.
The Hashemites aided the British with the promise of a Hashemite Kingdom in return.
Transjordan, now the West Bank, is part of the Palestinian territory, yes.
Any implication by omission is unintentional, but Im glad that we have been aquanited long enough that you could infer as much as you did.

She.
 
2008-02-04 11:43:32 PM
Yes, the Palestinians are under the thumb of the Bedouins in Jordan. Yasser Arafat tried to rectify that situation by attacking Jordan in 1970. As a result the Jordanians washed their hands of the West Bank and refused to reintegrate it into their country. This is an internecine squabble between Arabs and hardly Israel's fault.

Aw, the poor little Arabs shopkeepers' feelings are hurt when Westerners presume they're all a bunch of terrorist sympathizers? Perhaps they should refrain from passing out candy and celebrating in the streets after a successful suicide attack. Maybe, if they policed their own and arrested potential suicide bombers instead of celebrating them as heroes, the West would be more disposed to believe their protestations of innocence.

I had no idea Saladin was a Kurd. You learn something new every day. You're right, of course, the Kurds should be satisfied with being on top eight hundred years ago rather than wanting a homeland now. So, perhaps, should the Palestinians.
 
2008-02-05 12:01:27 AM
Thanks clambam. One last dose of mindless rhetoric is the cherry on the sundae that this thread needed.
 
2008-02-05 12:02:32 AM
Im unsure why you insist on putting the words into my mouth that this is Israel's fault. The notion of fault at this international relations empass is childish. But if fault needs to be assigned- it rests with the British for lying to both peoples, religions, ethnicities, whathaveyou, arming them against the other, camping the jews on cyprus while promising the Arabs no more immigration... I omit not because I am a revisionist but because you know the history, obviously. I think that maybe your view of Palestine might be as much the result of irresponsible journalism as anything else. Its not as exciting to show the other Palestinians sitting at home thinking "oh no, not this sh&^ again" after a suicide bombing. I am saying, however, that there are extremists on both sides that cause a tremendous amount of damage, but the voice of moderates must be given some consideration. Yes, Arabs have propagated terrorism. A jew killed Rabin and Sharon's knowingly controversal tour of the Al Aqusa Mosque is generally agreed upon to be the act that started the last intifada. If you must have blame, it is carried on all shoulders. Fingerpointing isnt bringing anyone closer to a better quality of life.
 
2008-02-05 02:15:36 AM
farkingatwork: Having just got back from going to Israel for free (I can hook up other farkers with that too), I have some new soldiers from when I was over there.

Yes, I have lots fun with soldiers :) Yes, I know the hat is friggin retarded looking.

Link to fullsize pictures below:
1st, 2nd , and 3rd


So, you went on the Taglit birthright israel trip too, huh?

Israel rocks.
 
2008-02-05 02:18:03 AM
czarangelus: Tatsuma: How dare you? How farking dare you [stand up to me. Don't you know I'm a Jew?]

FTFY

Tatsuma: Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?

Can you cite any sources for this, or are you just making things up as you go like usual? After all, Hamas is evil so they must be, and I quote "slaughtering" Christians. Even if they're not.

Tatsuma: Oh no I can vote for fascists, communists or moderates. Well, the fascists and communists have bigger parties, so fark the moderates!

Guess what? That's called realpolitik and it's practiced in every country, every day, by almost every citizen. Like it or not that's how things run.

Tatsuma: I don't live in luxury and comfort, and I'm going to live in even dire conditions when I move to a hilltop. So fark off.

I'm sure your conditions will be just dire. You poor, victimized Jew - I can't believe I haven't been more sympathetic to your plight.

Tatsuma: Hint: Just because you are insane doesn't mean we all are

You're definitely all insane. As a matter of fact, everyone could be diagnosed with a half-dozen mental illnesses, at various times in their lives. The most insane people are the ones who falsely believe themselves to be sane and rational.


Czarangelus is a well known anti-Semite terrorist sympathizer
 
2008-02-05 02:32:47 AM
xen0blue: czarangelus: Tatsuma: How dare you? How farking dare you [stand up to me. Don't you know I'm a Jew?]

FTFY

Tatsuma: Hamas and other Muslim terrorists have been slaughtering Xians and driving them out of Gaza, and you're pretending they are doing fine?

Can you cite any sources for this, or are you just making things up as you go like usual? After all, Hamas is evil so they must be, and I quote "slaughtering" Christians. Even if they're not.

Tatsuma: Oh no I can vote for fascists, communists or moderates. Well, the fascists and communists have bigger parties, so fark the moderates!

Guess what? That's called realpolitik and it's practiced in every country, every day, by almost every citizen. Like it or not that's how things run.

Tatsuma: I don't live in luxury and comfort, and I'm going to live in even dire conditions when I move to a hilltop. So fark off.

I'm sure your conditions will be just dire. You poor, victimized Jew - I can't believe I haven't been more sympathetic to your plight.

Tatsuma: Hint: Just because you are insane doesn't mean we all are

You're definitely all insane. As a matter of fact, everyone could be diagnosed with a half-dozen mental illnesses, at various times in their lives. The most insane people are the ones who falsely believe themselves to be sane and rational.

Czarangelus is a well known anti-Semite terrorist sympathizer


And as a Jew who's visited Israel on a birthright grant I suppose you're 100% unbiased, right?

/Everyone is racist, classist, groupist.
 
2008-02-05 07:51:54 AM
I'm glad to see everyone has stayed level-headed. No one is trying to pretend violence does anything but breed more violence, and certainly no one has resorted to disparaging anyone's ethnic group. Nope, not a single person in here is addressing the issue with a myopic view or oversimplifying anything so they can feel comfortable in having the "correct" opinion, according to their over or under inflated morals or associations.

I'm very happy to see that no one has accused anyone of hating Jews before it was clear they did, and I'm certainly happy to see that no one in here considers Jews to be morally deficient or just plain-old hates them.

It is great to see that no one has decided against learning the history of events in lieu of denouncing the cycle of violence. I am quite impressed that no one has decided a handful of events characterizes the happenings of many years. No, instead perspective is well-kept in this thread. No one has suggested the Palestinians are bloodthirsty savages, or that the Israelis have become as bad or worse than the Nazis.

It is amazing to see that not a single person has revealed massive ignorance by demanding the other side hold themselves accountable for a distorted and ill-informed summary of the situation. It is refreshing to note that no one has washed their hands of empathy and pronounced the other side reprehensible.

Fark is a classy place.
 
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