Impaler
(being sarcastic): Even something as simple as going to the bathroom, Christians do it because their bladder is full, Muslims do it only because Allah demands it.

Actually, Islam does give the good Moslem instructions on HOW to use the friggin' toilet ... like which HAND they should use ...(sound familiar? Hint: it's the sinister one)
Damn good arguments have been made regarding how Islam does in fact attempt to control virtually every facet of its practitioners' lives.

And yeah I know how Christians were the worst oppressors of the Jews throughout history. I mean, the Catholic Church freakin invented the Jewish ghetto and the wearing of the Star of David on the arm, both of which were later adopted by Nazi Germany.

And don't forget the way the Vatican treated Jews during WWII. You know, the whole stealing of assets and the like. Oh, and the whole Spanish Inquisition thing.

Funny, I always thought catholic meant "universal".

Shut........UP writes:

90+% of muslims think the US and/or Isreal blew up the WTC.

Source? And who cares? And it's spelled Israel, for Christ's sake.

Muslims strap bombs to themselves and blow up kids.

So have non-Muslims. Heck, some Christians blow up other Christians simply because they buy a different brand of Christianity. So what's your point?

90+% Muslims think the US got what it deserved.

Source? And so what if they think that? Are we such a namby-pamby country that we have to go cry in a corner if someone doesn't like us?

More Muslims would rather have dinner with Bin laden than Bush.

Source? And so what? Perhaps they don't know the Heimlich maneuver, and they're afraid pretzels will be served.

Even among our Muslim allies 70% of the population hates the US.

Source? And so what? A lot of Americans seem to hate the French, and they haven't even done anything to us except send their women over to tempt us with their adorable French accents, and send their men over to steal our women with their slimy French accents.

"His main goal was uniting the Jews with the Gentiles to remove the European oppressors of the time, the Romans."

Oh yea? Some sources? I mean, there really ISNT that much info on him outside the gospels.

10-25-02 03:04:57 PM Impaler
" Do think the area would be so contentious if Israel wasn't forced upon the Palestinians?"

Israel was 'forced upon the Palestinians' by the surrounding Arab nations. If Egypt and Syria and friends had continued their attacks, Israel would still be 'forced' upon them. They could have told the Palestinians 'since we lost the war, we are going to try and handle this Israel situation politically, and in the meantime our first responsibility is your welfare.' Instead, they chose to say 'Israel is the cause of all your problems. Unemployed? Israel did it. Sick? Israel did it. Poor? Israel. Ugly? Israel. shiat stinks? Israel. Go on suicide missions and kill Israelis. You have nothing to lose, and eternal paradise to gain'. They simply transferred Israel's defensive measures off their shoulders and onto suggestible Palestinians caught in the crossfire.

Scorpzr: i am fairly sure you spelled KKK correctly.

I dont know about Jewish but, Pedantic is certainly quite opinionated.

Is Pedantic Jewish?

No, he's not.

Does that matter?

Yes I do. The reaso ntat I asked is this. How the f would you feel if you had lived in this area for hunderds of years and BAM! You were told that you had to give it up.

Why don't you ask the Native Americans who lived in New York where you now reside.

I'm Catholic and embarrassed about how the Catholic church treated the Jews, but now the Jews seem to be the Nazis.

the only peaceful muslim is a dead muslim

Passthedutchie
What the fark is up with guys named Goldstein???

The stupid asshat who killed 29 Muslims in Israel in 1994 also named Goldstein! Baruch Goldstein was hailed as a saint in Israel after he slaughtered those people.

A Goldstein was also the enemy of Oceania. Doubleplusscapegoatanalogy.

Is Pedantic Jewish?
No, he's not.
Does that matter?

No, I suppose it doesn't matter, but anyone seemingly so one-sided must have an angle and something to protect.

I dont know about Jewish but, Pedantic is certainly quite opinionated.

Yes, he is.

About this post:

The reaso ntat I asked is this. How the f would you feel if you had lived in this area for hunderds of years and BAM! You were told that you had to give it up. Also, answer a question for me. Who actually owned the land that the British gave away?

Let me ask you this:

What if Jews had lived on that land for thousands of years? (There were those, you know.) What if you had been living peacefully in an Arab country for hundreds of years, and were suddenly expelled simply for being Jewish, and all your land and belongings were confiscated?

This happened to hundreds of thousands of Jews in '47 and '48.

Then, these same Arab nations asked many, many of their people to come to watch them drive the Jews into the sea. Once that war was over, they'd divide up "Israel" and give away the land, houses, factories, etc. to these Arabs. Many of the Arabs living in Israel sold their property to the Jews, being promised by the Arabs that they'd get it back once all the Jews were dead.

As you may know, the Arabs lost that war.

What you may not know, because it's not often told, is that the Arabs who came there stopped in (what is now) "Palestine". When they tried to go back to their homelands, they weren't welcomed. Not at all. In fact, they were put into refugee camps, where they and their descendents remain today.

Moreover, the "evil" refugee camps in the so-called "Occupied Territories" were neither built, maintained, or run by Israel. They were build by Jordan and Egypt who put the "Palestinians" there -- they're run by the UN. (This makes the terrorism based there even more egregious, because the UN does nothing to stop it.)

So, before you go on about "BAM!", learn all sides of the story. The truth doesn't paint the Arabs in a flattering light at all.

P.S. I could defeat any of the gun nuts in one on one battle with a bow.

=====

You're kidding, right!? As someone pointed out, you must mean a "gun nut" with a bow vs. a "bow nut" with a bow.

Because in the real world, the best of each enthusiast, with their chosen weapon...we bury the bow guy every time. As a matter of fact, that's why we don't issue bows to the military anymore. Can you use one effectively? I'm sure. As effectively as a rifle? Silly. Make a consistent kill from miles away? Multiple rounds at close range? It's a technological advantage that no philosophy can overcome. Be spiritual with your bow, don't ignore a rifle's advantages over it in the hand of an expert. I don't know what you were possibly thinking. Saying things like that would surely have to taint anything else you say in this thread, don't you know.

=====

Pedantic:

I don't know if I should feel sorry for you, or worship you. I have seen your opponents attack straw men. They dismiss obvious points. They argue with lots of emotion, and little science.

You are fighting a good fight, and seem to be a very clear-thinking person. The thing that is most sad is that there are so many people that would disagree. I feel lazy, watching you do all of the work. It's such an uphill battle. It's better than you do it, anyway. You are more versed in the literature that is required for the job. I only have the tool of witnessing the obvious at my disposable, and that's easily dismissed in a debate. As evidenced, too many people aren't interested in what's obvious.

For the record:

Not affiliated with the Jewish Religion.
Not affiliated with the Christian Religion.

Blike
If you read the rest of the thread, you would see that I think that the Palestinian situation is terrible. I was defending them. Having said that, I feel absolutely terrible about what was done to the Native Americans. In fact, I have protested to defend Native American rights in NY. So, what was it that you wanted me to ask them?

Blike:

Usually I don't post these with sources, but since you asked... My source is Laurence Gardner's "Bloodline of the Holy Grail." His website is http://graal.co.uk (if you'd like to see his credentials) Every fact that he states in the book is referenced in the bibliography. With well over 200 sources, it's fairly accurate reading.

Until you're willing to give up your place in new york, I would be careful about what I expect Israel to do.

Protested [for] their rights? How very noble of you.

You are fighting a good fight, and seem to be a very clear-thinking person.

Clear-thinking people don't take the same side in ALL of their arguments. It isn't credible.

No, I suppose it doesn't matter, but anyone seemingly so one-sided must have an angle and something to protect.

Maybe you think so.

I've looked at this situation for quite awhile -- and it's clear to me that the vast bulk of the blame lies on one side.

My angle? I don't like spin. I'm seeing far too much of it, in phrases like:

"Unfortunately, these groups [PLO, Islamic Jihad, Hizbollah -- DAN] have plenty of political heft because of the situation there. "

In case nobody's paying attention, the head of the PLO, a terrorist organization for decades, is the head of the Palestinians. He colludes with the other terrorists, and has called for a million martyrs to march on Jerusalem.

That's a little more than "unfortunate". That's DELIBERATE.

Why people cannot call this what it is bothers me. Maybe you've noticed.

Also, Canadian Guy that submitted this article:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article _Type1&c=Article&cid=1035194534910&call_page=TS_News&call_pageid=968332188492& call_pagepath=News/News

=====

Some notes:

1) I am overjoyed at what a wonderful neighbor we have in Canada.

2) We could have gotten North Korea, for example.

3) I have some Canadian friends that are very dear to my heart.

4) I've even been to Canada.

=====

1) We will expel whoever the hell we want from our country if they are deemed a threat to our national security.

2) We allow that Canada can do the same, and we would think ourselves absurd if we were caught whining about it on some internet message board.

3) If we make a mistake and send the person in question back to the wrong country, sue us. Surely some clerical was made, this is very common, and I'm sure one is being made somewhere else, right now, in The United States.

4) And Canada.

5) Apparently, even Canada, as great and as wonderful as I acknowledge that it is, contains whining shiats.

Blike
How did this become about me? Are you Native American?

Lewis, I read that as well. They have to pray 5 times a day, facing Mecca, in a very specific way, using a rug so as not to dirty themselves.

The Koran also prescribes what parts of your body you should wash when bathing, and in what order. And yes I've heard that they also must wipe themselves with a specific hand because the other one is considered unclean.

The Koran simply penetrates into everyday life too much for Islam to ever be a truly modern and apolitical religion without its followers totally dismissing it.

10-25-02 03:58:03 PM Pretzels
Is Pedantic Jewish?
Does that matter?
anyone seemingly so one-sided must have an angle and something to protect.

Pendantic has conceded several points to the other side - the Aryan Nation thing for example. For this reason alone I don't see him as one-sided - I see him as fairly honest.

I for one think he's made the better argument in this thread.

Bbcrackmonkey
Actually, you have to do everything (eat, shake hands, serve dinner, etc.) with one hand - the right one. This is because the left hand in considered unclaen because you have to wipe with that one.

So you are saying that at one time that Arabs and Jews did peacefully live together.

More or less.

Wouldn't that mean there isn't something inherent in Islam that calls for the destruction of Jews?

Maybe you should look at when Islam arrived on the scene. It wasn't that long ago -- more like 600 years after Christ. Before that, there weren't Muslims, so the question doesn't apply.

And, not that long ago, Islam was fairly tolerant. It's only relatively recently that the "drive out the infidel" part, which has always been there, has gained ascendency and become the driving force.

I say that's because the Arab world has purposely politicized Islam to serve its ends, but that's just one opinion.

Bbcrackmonkey:

And the Jewish are very up to date with things like skull caps and circumcision?

And Christians can't wear buttons or ribbons. Nor can they eat fish on Fridays during lent. They are also forbidden to touch alcohol.

Actually, you ought to modify that to say "some Christian denominations". You see, nowhere in the Bible will you find any of those. The Lenten requirements are, I believe, Catholic; I don't know about the rest.

Since Jesus Himself drank wine, I don't buy the prohibition of alcohol. In fact, Saint Paul told Timothy, and I quote: "No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments."

Doesn't sound like Prohibition to me.

10-25-02 01:40:21 PM FifthColumn
hey, if you had the job of a podiatrist for 10 years, you'd probably go apeshiat, too. OB/GYN, now that's where it's at!

I heard that it's hard to find an opening as a OB?GYN....

Impaler, good points about Christianity. Not to mention that whole thing about not being able to work on Sunday at all.

Good thing Jesus was always really vague and cryptic. The more ambiguous you are the better your words can be interpreted for future societies.

But still, you're absolutely right, both religions make massive encroachments into people's everyday lives.

Well then I guess its all about reinterpreting your scripture so as not to look like a fool in the eyes of your society. Who interprets the scripture for Christians? Unless you're Catholic, then your local pastor does. If you are a Catholic, then the pope does. Both pastors and the pope don't want to see their religion looked upon as foolishness.

Now the imams on the other hand, are all crazy, and the crazier they are, the higher they get in the ranks of the religious clergy. I suppose it is safe to blame them for a good portion of the ill befalling the Islamic world?

Maybe.

Pedantic:

I can't vouch for Impaler, but I do know that the bible does clearly state that those that choose to have sex with their wife while she is on her period should be exiled. That sounds like pretty personal control.

I can't vouch for Impaler, but I do know that the bible does clearly state that those that choose to have sex with their wife while she is on her period should be exiled. That sounds like pretty personal control.

Please show me chapter and verse (try looking in Leviticus). Then be prepared to discuss why Levitical law came to an end with Jesus.

If you intend to claim this knowledge, then you had best know what you are talking about.

There is a lot of strange stuff in the Bible. Not only should the man be exiled, but the woman is considered unclean. Also, after a woman gave bitrh, she was supposed to live in her own area (tent, house, etc) for 30 days after the birth. Again, this is because she was unclean. In the Bible, you also can not marry the wife of your dead brother.

I've looked at this situation for quite awhile -- and it's clear to me that the vast bulk of the blame lies on one side.

In reality, blame is always a two-way street. You can never blame one side for war or for terrorism. It's emotion that leads us to choose a side and to stick with it.

What is your true fear - the loss of Israel, the loss of cheap Middle Eastern oil reserves, the growth of Islam, or the loss of "white" power?

Yeah I know, but since everybody was treating all 1 billion mulims like they all held the same believes, I thought I would be fair and treat all 1 billion odd christians the same way.

In other words, you don't know. I figured.

In reality, blame is always a two-way street.

No, it's not. Like guilt, like responsibility, it comes down to who decided to do what, for what reason, and knowing what the consequences were.

You can never blame one side for war or for terrorism.

Yes, you can. Are you really claiming that, for any action, there is no right or wrong?

That's what you'll come down to.

It's emotion that leads us to choose a side and to stick with it.

I see. You don't believe in reason.

No wonder it's so hard to discuss things with you.

What is your true fear - the loss of Israel, the loss of cheap Middle Eastern oil reserves, the growth of Islam, or the loss of "white" power?

It's not about fear. It's about the consequences of letting irrationality run amok. Just like Europe in '38 -- if you don't stand up to bullies, you end up having to fight a deep, brutal and costly war with them.

So, since you claim this is all about emotions, why are you opposing me? What is it about me that you're afraid of?

There is a dentist involved in this plot..
apparently he's turning state's evidence
against the feuding jewish bomb-squad
I love people with half-ass motivations

In other words, you don't know. I figured.

WTF? Expain.

You don't know the differences between denominations, between Christianity and denominational tradition, and between that which you heard somewhere and Christianity.

You tried to cover that by being flippant.

There wasn't any need to explain this to you, but I did so anyway.

Pedantic:

It is Leviticus, however Levitical law didn't come to an end with Jesus if you're Jewish.

Unrelated note: My interpretation of Jesus's quote "he who lives by the sword, dies by the sword" is more premonition than directive. I also think that it is odd that so many Christians and Jews also ignore the "Thou shalt not kill" part of the bible. I seem to remember that had some vague reference somewhere in the bible (sarcasm).

All of my arguments are not meant in any way to condone Islam, or violence of any kind from any party. My arguments are based on the rejection that Islam is violent and everyone else is just on the defense.

It is Leviticus, however Levitical law didn't come to an end with Jesus if you're Jewish.

No, it didn't. But the Jews don't have the Bible; they have the Talmud. So, the prescriptions you have there are not Christian.

It's a point not everyone understands, but it is important.

I also think that it is odd that so many Christians and Jews also ignore the "Thou shalt not kill" part of the bible. I seem to remember that had some vague reference somewhere in the bible (sarcasm).

It's properly translated "Thou shalt not murder." There's a bit of difference.

I suppose, Pedantic, that you really want to start a fight with me - hit your sore spot?

I do believe in reason. I don't believe that you are using true reason as all of your arguments are against one side. You are obviously wrought with emotion over this whole situation.

There is no such thing as right and wrong. It all depends on your point of view. Is it wrong to fly airliners into buildings or is it wrong to bomb civilians from 40,000 feet? Which is right, and which is wrong?

The thing about you that frightens me is that you are an extremist, but are able to use quasi-intelligent arguments. All extremists frighten me.

And you'r ejust a little kid who likes to spout.

I was raised Catholic.

And you learned so little?

Protestants can eat fish on Fridays, Catholics can't. Methodist's don't believe in adornment, Catholics are free to be flashy. Hell, look at the pope, it's almost encouraged. And it's Mormons who can't drink.

So, despite knowing this, you purposely made yourself to be wrong. That's damned interesting.

What was it I said earlier? Oh yeah: "Hmmm, you are grossly reading into things, mistakenly thinking you know the motives and thoughts of others. This is another indication of your intelligence Pedantic"

Oh, actually, you just spelled yours out. It's good to know that you're not about truth or honesty -- I can stop treating you with that level or respect or consideration.

The truth will out. And you're doing a very, very good job of showing that.

So, do you have to lie to make your point, or do you just do it for fun?