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(AP)   37 destructive devices and other explosives and components used in making bombs, three bulletproof vests, 25,000 rounds of ammunition, a typed list of 50 Islamic worship centers and a partridge in a pear tree   (ap.tbo.com) divider line 412
    More: Florida  
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59 clicks; posted to Main » on 25 Oct 2002 at 12:33 PM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-10-25 02:03:42 PM  
Everybody needs a hobby.
 
2002-10-25 02:04:57 PM  
baldactor -

maybe this'll explain it better:

Tenebreux: It's generalisation at its worst (the sign of a lazy mind) to say that even the majority of any one ethnic group or religion are terrorists. You can happily say "Muslims hate the west". Sure. And you hate Muslims. Take everything case by case, avoid generalisations, think for yourself.

Baldactor: Wow, Tenebreux, nicely put.

and yet,...

borad generalizations make me pissy

baldactor: "What about Islam can turn a person against all normal societal bonds?"
 
2002-10-25 02:05:21 PM  
10-25-02 01:08:47 PM Donald_McRonald
"He had books on how to make bombs and he was using VCR tapes and walkie-talkies as a means to explode bombs," Dennie said.

Once again, I'll ask: How the fark does a VCR blow shiat up?
==========================================================
Three words: smpte time code
 
2002-10-25 02:05:50 PM  
Masturbation is a hobby, right?
 
2002-10-25 02:05:57 PM  
Trystopheles, a lot of the settlers are there because Israel offers Jews $25,000 to migrate to Israel and gives them enough dough to build themself a house. The settlements employ a whole wad of Palestinian labor in their construction, but the settlers are more hated than IDF soldiers are because of such tactics you have stated above. If you read Jerusalem Post frequently, you'll see that sometimes when Israel tries to dismantle an illegal settlement, the settlers tangle with the police, and people get hurt and arrested.

Settlers also come under very heavy risk of attack, and so they take security precautions such as plowing olive trees that could be used as cover for a terrorist attack. They are also assholes for doing this because they don't pay the Palestinians for ripping up their shiat, nor do they allow them to keep the trees and just offer them mad $$$ for turning in terrorists hiding in their olive trees.
 
2002-10-25 02:10:33 PM  
It's really ironic that the folks who arrive at the conclusion that muslims=terrorists by way of a fallacy of false equivalence can't see that it's the same sort of logical error that makes terrorist acts seem rational to those who commit them.

No shiat. It sucks too. "They" blow "us" up, so "we" must blow "them" up, so "they" blow "us" up again. Ad Infintum.
 
2002-10-25 02:10:44 PM  
Yes, there is. But there's only an orchestrated campaign of killing on one side.

I think the Israelis call their campagin of killing "the military".
 
2002-10-25 02:12:12 PM  
FifthColumn...


You said, "P.S. I could defeat any of the gun nuts in one on one battle with a bow."

Please clarify: you with a bow versus them with a gun, or both of you with bows?
 
2002-10-25 02:13:33 PM  
But there's only an orchestrated campaign of killing on one side.

Where the f.uck do you come up with that?

Who's Rolling tanks and artilery weapons int urban areas who's blowing up houses of relatives of peiople *suspected* of being militants (and giving family members 4-5 minutes to evacuate) who's parking an entire platoon out of someone's house and sending an innocent palastinian *neighbour* as a human shield first. Neighbour get's shot in the back of the head half the time.

The Isrealli's have an army with tanks and heavy artilary. the Palistinains have nothing. They're fighting back the only way they can.

On several occasions, the entire UN council *except* Isreal and the US has deamed what Isreal is doing as unlawful, ahborient. Each time the demand, the US uses their VETO power to stop it.

I highly sugest you start getting your news from a Canadian or British news source instead of CNN to get the true picture.
 
2002-10-25 02:15:24 PM  
Kerouac: nope. You should have stuck with the art.
A. The quote from Tenebreux, then me is from after your previous post. Were you still trying to figure out what you were talking about? And Tenebreaux was not arguing for generalizations, but against them.

B. Still having problems cutting and pasting? "borad"?
I never said "What about Islam can turn a person against all normal societal bonds?" which you seem to be attributing to me. I appreciated ideas behind the paragraph you pulled it from, but never said I said it or asked it myself.

I'll give you a few more hours. Try another GIS.
 
2002-10-25 02:17:09 PM  
Yes, there is. But there's only an orchestrated campaign of killing on one side.

I think the Israelis call their campagin of killing "the military".


I knew someone would bring this up.

So, would you like to go find the mythical Jenin "massacre"? Please try.

Actually, just consider this: Israel has the military power to level the Palesitinian lands if they so choose. Yet, despite endless provocation, they haven't done so.

Do you HONESTLY believe, if the situations were reversed, the Palestinians would tolerate constant murder of civilians without flattening all Jews?

If you do, then I'm sorry you're so out of touch.

Do you see the difference, yet?
 
2002-10-25 02:17:13 PM  
Pedantic:

Many, many, Palestinians are just as tired of the bloodshed as the Isrealis are. It has been well documented that, although there are extremists, there are many Palestinian moderates who do want to live in peace alongside Israelis. In response to your subject of the schools, just look at many politicians from Israel's parliament that want complete totalitarian control of the West Bank and Gaza. They constantly refer to the Palestinian's as "terrorists" and think that they deserve to die. When Sharon says that an operation that not only killed a terrorist leader, but killed 14 civilians a success, doesn't that bother you in the slightest?

I know it's not black and white, and I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. I just disagree with poorly thought out generalizations of any group. Preachers like Falwell in the US have millions of followers, but that doesn't speak for every Christian. Many Palestinians do support the infitada, but only because their "normal" lives have become intolerable. The only way they see out is through violence. It's a sad situation, but it is not incurable.
 
2002-10-25 02:21:11 PM  
As soon as all of you, Christians, Muslims, e.t.c. realize that god is an invention of man, and not vice versa, then the debates and terror can stop, please.

Puuuhhhlleeeasssseeee. If you think debates and terror will stop with the cessation of religion, you are sadly mistaken. These will always exist, religion is just a convenient scapegoat.
 
2002-10-25 02:22:14 PM  
Who's Rolling tanks and artilery weapons int urban areas who's blowing up houses of relatives of peiople *suspected* of being militants (and giving family members 4-5 minutes to evacuate)

Who's arming, aiding, and protecting the suicide bombers?

Who's dismembering SUSPECTED collaborators and dragging their mutilated corpses through the streets to cheering throngs?

who's parking an entire platoon out of someone's house and sending an innocent palastinian *neighbour* as a human shield first.

Who's booby-trapping the houses (like in Jenin) and then using their relatives to lure people in?

Neighbour get's shot in the back of the head half the time.

To quote you: "Where the f.uck do you come up with that?"

It would be nice if you'd acknowledge the evil being done by the "Palestinians", who are actually other Arabs moved into the are in '47 and '48 to benefit from the war to "destroy all Jews". That war failed. The ARABS (not the Jews) built the refugee camps that are still there -- and the "Palestinians" who returned to Arab lands are still herded into them and treated like dirt.

But don't let these facts get in your way, either.
 
2002-10-25 02:23:26 PM  
What the fark is up with guys named Goldstein???

The stupid asshat who killed 29 Muslims in Israel in 1994 also named Goldstein! Baruch Goldstein was hailed as a saint in Israel after he slaughtered those people.

[image from news.bbc.co.uk too old to be available]

Goldsteins suck! Is Israel going to give this prick the same status as Baruch? They suck too!
 
2002-10-25 02:25:37 PM  
Emilykp: I thought it would have been a dentist, not a podiatrist that would finally crack and do something like this.

From yesterday: Police arrest wife of podiatrist accused in Tampa bombing plot
----------------------------------
Her arrest came one day after another alleged accomplice, Michael Hardee, agreed to plead guilty to federal charges and cooperate with prosecutors in the case against the couple.

Hardee - a Temple Terrace dentist described in court documents as a friend of the Goldsteins and fellow gun enthusiast - told federal agents that he agreed to drive Robert Goldstein to the Islamic Education/Cultural Center in St. Petersburg and circle the block while Goldstein planted the explosives.
------------------------------------
 
2002-10-25 02:26:16 PM  
Actually, just consider this: Israel has the military power to level the Palesitinian lands if they so choose. Yet, despite endless provocation, they haven't done so.

The ONLY reason they haven't is because they know that the entire Middle east would then role in and blow them off the map.


Palestinians would tolerate constant murder of civilians without flattening all Jews? If you do, then I'm sorry you're so out of touch.

What the F.uck do you think the Isreali's are doing? They kill just as many civilians as the Palistians do. But Isreali's call it "unfortunalte casualties" while decrying Palistinian acts a terrorism.
 
2002-10-25 02:28:20 PM  
Pedantic: It would be nice if you'd acknowledge the evil being done by the "Palestinians", who are actually other Arabs moved into the are in '47 and '48 to benefit from the war to "destroy all Jews".

So, by this logic, nobody was living there before Israel settled the area and became a state in the 40's?!
 
2002-10-25 02:28:20 PM  
Many, many, Palestinians are just as tired of the bloodshed as the Isrealis are.

The polls I see haven't shown that -- quite the opposite, in fact.

Add to that the Arab and Muslim nations paying the families of suicide bombers, and we're back to Islam promoting terrorism.

It has been well documented that, although there are extremists, there are many Palestinian moderates who do want to live in peace alongside Israelis.

Unfortunately, they're the minority, and not influential.

In response to your subject of the schools, just look at many politicians from Israel's parliament that want complete totalitarian control of the West Bank and Gaza. They constantly refer to the Palestinian's as "terrorists" and think that they deserve to die.

And they discuss it in the open, with their opponents (who include Arabs in the legislature -- no Jews are allowed in politics in Palestine, or most of the Arab world), and don't just go pay for bombs to go off in crowded classrooms.

There's a difference.

When Sharon says that an operation that not only killed a terrorist leader, but killed 14 civilians a success, doesn't that bother you in the slightest?

It does bother me. A lot.

It also bothers me that people like that would hide behind civilians and then try to claim protection of any humanitarian agreement. Sorry, but you can't live on both sides of that.

The people living around him knew he was a mass murderer, and supported it. That, too, bothers me.
 
2002-10-25 02:29:10 PM  
The ONLY reason they haven't is because they know that the entire Middle east would then role in and blow them off the map.

Just like they did in all the other wars, right?
 
2002-10-25 02:31:27 PM  
Do you HONESTLY believe, if the situations were reversed, the Palestinians would tolerate constant murder of civilians without flattening all Jews?

I can't answer that for sure, and neither can you Pedantic, so stop acting like you know so good damn much. Christ! You presented a situation that is hell and gone from the present one, and then you act like you can predict the outcome of said situation with authority. That says a lot about your intelligence Pedantic.

How many years have you spent in Palestine Pedantic? Surely you aren't making these judgements based on information gathered exclusively through the media.
 
2002-10-25 02:32:54 PM  
CanuckGuy said: "The ONLY reason they haven't is because they know that the entire Middle east would then role in and blow them off the map."

I believe that's been tried before. Several times. I think we all know how that turned out, since there are still Jews living in Israel.

And the Israeli soldiers are not killing civilians just for the sake of killing civilians. Their incursions are designed to inflict minimal civilian casualties and they are targeted at terrorist infrastructure such as bomb and rocket factories, Hamas safehouses, etc. However, when Palestinian guerrillas choose to engage them in street fighting on these particular incursions, lots of people die, including civilians. Thankfully the terrorists have stopped using the "have a huge group of kids throwing rocks while guys behind them fire machineguns" tactics that they used in the first months of the intifadah.

On the other hand, the Hamas/Islamic Jihad/AAMB terrorists' sole aim is to kill Jews with their incursions, and they have to bypass over a hundred military targets just to get to their desired location.

There's the difference.
 
2002-10-25 02:34:07 PM  
Pedantic - do you know anything about the creation of the modern Israeli state?
 
2002-10-25 02:38:23 PM  
Do you HONESTLY believe, if the situations were reversed, the Palestinians would tolerate constant murder of civilians without flattening all Jews?

I can't answer that for sure,


Then you're being DELIBERATELY dishonest. The stated goal of the PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah is to kill all the Jews. Period.

Why do you believe they've given this up when they claim they haven't?

and neither can you

Yes, I can. It's called "learning from history". You might try it.
 
2002-10-25 02:42:19 PM  
Pedantic - do you know anything about the creation of the modern Israeli state?

Quite a bit. Do you know about the shamless concessions to the Arabs that predated it and almost prevented it from being?

Look here: A brief history is the area, with maps
 
2002-10-25 02:43:24 PM  
Pedantic, not to be nitpicky, but Hamas' stated goals are to merely kill all the Jews living in Israel, then the establishment of an Islamic theocracy. I don't think they are aspiring to kill ALL Jews. They might if they were a lot more influential and had a lot more power, but as it is they have relegated themselves to the mere ethnic cleansing of Israel.
 
2002-10-25 02:43:39 PM  
Americans have been getting caught in the crossfire of the whole "Jews -VS- Arabs" thing for quiet a while now.. Just wall off the "Holy land", dump in a few million guns, and let it burn itself out. If they want to kill each other so bad, lets step out of the way so they can have their wish.
 
2002-10-25 02:47:55 PM  
37 destructive devices and other explosives and components used in making bombs, three bulletproof vests, 25,000 rounds of ammunition, a typed list of 50 Islamic worship centers and not one mention of the word 'Terrorist'.

No trip to Guantanamo, just a visit to the shrink.
 
2002-10-25 02:47:56 PM  
Pedantic: The stated goal of the PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah is to kill all the Jews. Period.

Unfortunately, these groups have plenty of political heft because of the situation there. Radical groups come to power in times of woe and strife (like Hitler's Nazi party during Germany's depression), and lose power when the people are satisfied with their lot in life (like Neo-Nazis in the US).

"Yes, I can. It's called "learning from history". You might try it."
 
2002-10-25 02:48:55 PM  
Me lives in seminole county...
 
2002-10-25 02:50:03 PM  
I submitted this story back on August 23rd when it broke and it never got posted in favor of more important things like Wil Wheaton vs. Barney pics and some article about ALF. That's right, ALF.
 
2002-10-25 02:52:04 PM  
Trystopheles, no doubt when people are unhappy, radical groups gain power. But one must also not discount the fact that radical groups can gain power through force of arms, independent of their popular support, and kill anyone who publically speaks out against them.

That is also not to say anything about the reasons why said people are unhappy.
 
2002-10-25 03:03:16 PM  
permit me to speak in bold for you closed minded types here who think that EVERY FARKING MUSLIM ON THE FACE OF THIS PLANET is equated with violence, terrorism and a threat to all that is good on this earth.........if you don't like this behavior, stop giving fanatics the ammunition they need for doing something stupid. alot of the fanatics act in the sense that the muslim world is constantly being a target of aggression. and you know what? YOUR ANTI MUSLIM RHETORIC AND ANALRENTENTIVE STEREOTYPES ARE ONLY PROVING THEM RIGHT!


you people make me sick saying that you'd condone any violence against innocent people at a place of worship. why don't you brave internet patriots back up your stupid statistics of "so and so percent of muslims hate america, believe in violence, etc..."

here's an idea....go read the goddamn Q'uaran and tell me where it condones violence. then go read the goddamn bible and tell me were you DON'T see violence.

this hatred is vicious circle and NO WHERE IS IT CONDONED THAT INNOCENT PEOPLE SHOULD BE KILLED!!!! CHRISTIANS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE, MUSLIMS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE, JEWS HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE, AND SO On!!!!!!!
 
2002-10-25 03:03:42 PM  
Pedantic
Yes I do. The reaso ntat I asked is this. How the f would you feel if you had lived in this area for hunderds of years and BAM! You were told that you had to give it up. Also, answer a question for me. Who actually owned the land that the British gave away?
 
2002-10-25 03:04:57 PM  
Then you're being DELIBERATELY dishonest. The stated goal of the PLO, Islamic Jihad and Hizbollah is to kill all the Jews. Period.

No, I'm being a realist. Do you think those organizations would exist if Jews weren't in charge of Palestine? Do think the area would be so contentious if Israel wasn't forced upon the Palestinians? To assume that if Palestinians where in control that they would have the same beliefs that the do now, or even that they would be lead be the people in the PLO is quite, I repeat QUITE, presumptuous.

Why do you believe they've given this up when they claim they haven't?
I never said they did. Hmmm, you are grossly reading into things, mistakenly thinking you know the motives and thoughts of others. This is another indication of your intelligence Pedantic


Yes, I can. It's called "learning from history". You might try it.
I have tried it. Telling me to learn from history is like telling Pavarodi to eat something. What you're doing is called "Conformation Bias". It's called psychology, you might try it.
 
2002-10-25 03:06:04 PM  
Ditto B0rg9, ditto.
 
2002-10-25 03:09:04 PM  
Meatofmystery, I've done a little Koranic reading, and there are verses in it which say that you must slay the infidel wherever you may find them, taunt them until they convert, etc etc. Mohammed was also a violent warlord who conquered Mecca's holy cities through military conquest and forced their populace to convert.

Places where I don't see violence in the Bible? Well there are many many places in the Koran that don't have violence as well, so you aren't exactly doing a fair equating of the two, but Jesus was a pacifist who said "Those who live by the sword die by the sword" and was into turning the other cheek and all that. The most violent act he committed was throwing around benches of merchants in the Temple.

Don't get me wrong here. I'm an atheist, I just don't have that anti-christian bias that most of the younger atheists have.
 
2002-10-25 03:12:38 PM  
Pedantic
That's an interesting site, like the maps.


The Arabs not only rejected partition, but attacked Israel from all sides. On the day that Israel declared its independence, the Arab League Secretary, General Azzam Pasha declared "jihad", a holy war. He said, "This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades".(1) The Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin Al Husseini stated, "I declare a holy war, my Moslem brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all!" (2) The armies of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Iraq invaded the tiny new country with the declared intent of destroying it.(3)


Jihad Jihad Jihad, Death to you you and you, you see! They hate Islam....EVER!
 
2002-10-25 03:14:20 PM  
"It looks like this guy was going to target some Islamic mosques," Pinellas County Sheriff's Detective Cal Dennie said.

I guess a career in law enforcement was more appealing to Det. Cal than that run of the mill job as head of theoretical interplanetary spacecraft design at Livermoore Labs.
 
2002-10-25 03:17:25 PM  
Y'all aren't being "Politicaly Koshur" today. Commenting on the "Jewishness" of the criminal, regardless of his crime or motivations, is a CRIME in many nations. Its called "Provoking racial hatred".. Arabs however, make a wonderfull target of a slanted media. Ever wonder why THIS story didn't make headlines for weeks on end? Who decides what gets published. Do the math.
 
2002-10-25 03:17:25 PM  
Impaler, I do not believe that those groups would exist if the Jews were not in the Middle East. That is a given, considering those groups were specifically created to drive the Jews from the Middle East.

Just as Al-qaeda would not exist if the US had never meddled in Mideast affairs.

Unfortunately we cannot change the past. The Jews are in the Middle East and those groups that have devoted themselves to the ethnic cleansing of said Jews also exist alongside them.

Was the creation of Israel a short-sighted mistake? Oh yeah, big big mistake. Too little, too late. It was supposed to be created because of what everyone saw was eventual, which manifested itself in the Holocaust. After Israel was created, it was far too late to prevent such a thing. Of course the Arabs tried to complement Hitler's holocaust by trying to wage one of their own. Through some amazing miracle the Jews beat them back.

Did the Israelis use terroristic tactics to drive Palestinians from their land so that they could take it? You bet they did. I dont' know many people who would doubt such a thing. In fact it was official policy. Was that a big mistake too? Oh hell yeah, and downright uncivilized.

But we still can't change the past, ya know? We have to deal with what's in the present. We're stuck fixing the mistakes that our grandparents made.
 
2002-10-25 03:21:45 PM  
Wicked Wanda: hahahaha
 
2002-10-25 03:24:19 PM  
I like Impaler's statements to Pedantic. I quite agree with it.
Also, about Mohammed, let's pose this question: If there were a fight between Jesus and Mohammed, who would win? What if Mohammed was riding around on Godzilla's back? Makes you think...
 
2002-10-25 03:25:08 PM  
'I would just characterize him as being odd'

No shiat.
 
2002-10-25 03:25:39 PM  
It sort of all boils down to western versus Middle eastern culture. When you are driven off your land in Europe, you are expected to resettle in the new land and make a new life for yourself. That is why Israel willingly settled all the Jews who were expelled from Middle Eastern countries.

In the Middle East however, it is a cultural custom to let all refugees come back to their homes and settle back into their old land. Usually this is the way you measure whether a conflict in the Mideast is over, by the movement of refugees back to their homes, like we witnessed in Afghanistan when the taliban was ousted and the refugees started to came back into Afghanistan.

Usually a conflict is not considered officially 'over' until the refugees are allowed back.
 
2002-10-25 03:29:02 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey:

I'm also an atheist (look for us to lose voting rights in two years), but I've done a crapload of Christian history research over the last two years. Jesus wasn't as much of a pacifist as people make him out to be. His main goal was uniting the Jews with the Gentiles to remove the European oppressors of the time, the Romans.

I think it's Ironic that the Romans adopted Christianity when they saw that they could manipulate it to their needs, and were the main oppressors of Jews throughout most of the last two millenia. It's only a recent thing that Jews have broad Christian support.

Funny how times change.
 
2002-10-25 03:30:12 PM  
Emilykp, the fight between Mohammed and Jesus has already been covered in very old threads.

In a cage match where 2 men enter 1 man leaves, Jesus would win.

You know why? Mohammed would slap him silly, beat the crap outta him, and kill him really quickly, no prob. But Jesus would resurrect and continually heal himself while just sitting there. Mohammed would slap the crap outta him all day and Jesus would just heal his face bones or resurrect himself after getting killed. Jesus would then be able to turn it into a war of attrition, while he held out by creating fish, bread, and wine out of nothing for himself while Mohammed exhausted all his energy attacking Jesus and dying of dehydration/starvation/pure exhaustion.
 
2002-10-25 03:30:50 PM  
As I read through the thread and see all the fear, generalizations, name-calling, etc., one thing keeps popping up in my head. Many of you need to read the article.

That is all. You are all entitled to your opinions, no point in me commenting further.
 
2002-10-25 03:35:21 PM  
Trystopholes, I'm just going by what the Bible and Koran say about their respective leaders, which is generally the primary influence on their followers.

Of course if you want to argue real history, Jesus was probably a viscious anti-Roman rebel who fought valiantly to overthrow their rule. The whole point of the messiah was to deliver Israel from its enemies.

Well actually the Romans instituted Christianity because one of their crazy emporers forced it onto them, not because of any superior aspects of controlling the populace.

And yeah I know how Christians were the worst oppressors of the Jews throughout history. I mean, the Catholic Church freakin invented the Jewish ghetto and the wearing of the Star of David on the arm, both of which were later adopted by Nazi Germany.
 
2002-10-25 03:42:09 PM  
And yeah I know how Christians were the worst oppressors of the Jews throughout history. I mean, the Catholic Church freakin invented the Jewish ghetto and the wearing of the Star of David on the arm, both of which were later adopted by Nazi Germany.

And don't forget the way the Vatican treated Jews during WWII. You know, the whole stealing of assets and the refusals to see the Jews as refugees in orderto give them help and support. Very nice.
 
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