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(DW-World)   Atheists make children's book teaching acceptance of all beliefs and sharing. Nah, just kidding, it is portrays all religions as evil and bloodthirsty complete with a crazed Jew   (dw-world.de) divider line 943
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16944 clicks; posted to Main » on 02 Feb 2008 at 10:59 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-02-03 11:02:39 AM
i hate jimmy page: letrole: Love does not express itself in anger, or dishonesty, or condescension. You would do well to put your own house in order first.

You would do well not to be so judgmental. Thanks for that condescending message, however.


Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
 
2008-02-03 11:02:56 AM
downtownkid: I apologize

Apology accepted.
 
2008-02-03 11:04:20 AM
letrole: Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

Thanks for insulting me with Bible scripture. That's real classy.
 
2008-02-03 11:06:24 AM
downtownkid: And, no, Hitler was not a Christian.

How about Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant Church? Was he a Christian?

Let's hear what he has to say:

"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews? Since they live among us, we dare not tolerate their conduct, now that we are aware of their lying and reviling and blaspheming. If we do, we become sharers in their lies, cursing and blasphemy. Thus we cannot extinguish the unquenchable fire of divine wrath, of which the prophets speak, nor can we convert the Jews. With prayer and the fear of God we must practice a sharp mercy to see whether we might save at least a few from the glowing flames. We dare not avenge ourselves. Vengeance a thousand times worse than we could wish them already has them by the throat. I shall give you my sincere advice:

First, to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them. This is to be done in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians, and do not condone or knowingly tolerate such public lying, cursing, and blaspheming of his Son and of his Christians. For whatever we tolerated in the past unknowingly_and I myself was unaware of it_will be pardoned by God. But if we, now that we are informed, were to protect and shield such a house for the Jews, existing right before our very nose, in which they lie about, blaspheme, curse, vilify, and defame Christ and us (as was heard above), it would be the same as if we were doing all this and even worse ourselves, as we very well know.

In Deuteronomy 13:12 Moses writes that any city that is given to idolatry shall be totally destroyed by fire, and nothing of it shall be preserved. If he were alive today, he would be the first to set fire to the synagogues and houses of the Jews. For in Deuteronomy 4:2 and 12:32 he commanded very explicitly that nothing is to be added to or subtracted from his law. And Samuel says in I Samuel 15:23 that disobedience to God is idolatry. Now the Jews' doctrine at present is nothing but the additions of the rabbis and the idolatry of disobedience, so that Moses has become entirely unknown among them (as we said before), just as the Bible became unknown under the papacy in our day. So also, for Moses' sake, their schools cannot be tolerated; they defame him just as much as they do us. It is not necessary that they have their own free churches for such idolatry.

Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed. For they pursue in them the same aims as in their synagogues. Instead they might be lodged under a roof or in a barn, like the gypsies. This will bring home to them the fact that they are not masters in our country, as they boast, but that they are living in exile and in captivity, as they incessantly wail and lament about us before God.

Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing, and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them.

Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb. For they have justly forfeited the right to such an office by holding the poor Jews captive with the saying of Moses (Deuteronomy 17:10) in which he commands them to obey their teachers on penalty of death, although Moses clearly adds: "what they teach you in accord with the law of the Lord." Those villains ignore that. They wantonly employ the poor people's obedience contrary to the law of the Lord and infuse them with this poison, cursing, and blasphemy. In the same way the pope also held us captive with the declaration in Matthew 16:18, "You are Peter," etc., inducing us to believe all the lies and deceptions that issued from his devilish mind. He did not teach in accord with the word of God, and therefore he forfeited the right to teach.

Fifth, I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews. For they have no business in the countryside, since they are not lords, officials, tradesmen, or the like. Let them stay at home. I have heard it said that a rich Jew is now traveling across the country with twelve horses his ambition is to become a Kokhba devouring princes, lords, lands, and people with his usury, so that the great lords view it with jealous eyes. If you great lords and princes will not forbid such usurers the highway legally, some day a troop may gather against them, having learned from this booklet the true nature of the Jews and how one should deal with them and not protect their activities. For you, too, must not and cannot protect them unless you wish to become participants in an their abominations in the sight of God. Consider carefully what good could come from this, and prevent it.

Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping. The reason for such a measure is that, as said above, they have no other means of earning a livelihood than usury, and by it they have stolen and robbed from us an they possess. Such money should now be used in no other way than the following: Whenever a Jew is sincerely converted, he should be handed one hundred, two hundred, or three hundred florins, as personal circumstances may suggest. With this he could set himself up in some occupation for the support of his poor wife and children, and the maintenance of the old or feeble. For such evil gains are cursed if they are not put to use with God's blessing in a good and worthy cause."

From The Jews and their Lies, by Martin Luther

Luther was Hitler, without the means to carry out his desires.
 
2008-02-03 11:08:47 AM
i hate jimmy page:
letrole: Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.
Thanks for insulting me with Bible scripture. That's real classy.


Thanks for turning your arrogant condescension and hatred into indignant self-pity. That's real satisfying.
 
2008-02-03 11:09:31 AM
i hate jimmy page: Thanks for insulting me with Bible scripture. That's real classy.

I'd say that was better/classier than what you did:

i hate jimmy page: downtownkid: I apologize

Apology accepted.


The funny part, I'm not even on either side of this flame war... I'm just observing how both sides are stating their cases, and the Atheist are the ones that really are coming out as being spiteful and trying to sound smart.

It's interesting....
 
2008-02-03 11:11:20 AM
letrole

Just keep piling those insults on. I can feel the Christian love.
 
2008-02-03 11:12:18 AM
I see this thread is still going at full steam ahead. I'll even have to admit that the fundies that may be lurking in the the thread are keeping their rhetoric to a minimum. I have to say I'm impressed.
 
2008-02-03 11:12:21 AM
letrole: Atheism is a Religion.

While many atheists do express their beliefs with the zeal and self-righteousness of a Christian fundie, it isn't really a religion.

It doesn't matter anyways; being arrogant and smarmy is no less annoying because it stems from a non-belief than when it stems from a religious belief.
 
2008-02-03 11:15:04 AM
i hate jimmy page: letrole

Just keep piling those insults on. I can feel the Christian love.


At this point, he's really being nice and stating how you are coming across.

I think that you have some issues that you need to look into... as any religious person pee in your cereals a long time ago and you never got over it?
 
2008-02-03 11:19:01 AM
imfallen_angel any religious person pee in your cereals a long time ago and you never got over it?

Grow up kid. This is the time to talk about big boy theology not sling mud at each other.
 
2008-02-03 11:22:04 AM
i hate jimmy page
Just keep piling those insults on. I can feel the Christian love.

No dear, that's not love you feel. Rather, it's a taste of your own medicine. How's it feel to have your lunch money taken by a man of Faith?

I never did turn the other cheek very well, but then, I never claimed to be driven by Love. I'm a Christian, just not a very good one.
 
2008-02-03 11:26:43 AM
letrole

It's ok, I forgive you and I still love you.
 
2008-02-03 11:27:43 AM
i hate jimmy page: Grow up kid. This is the time to talk about big boy theology not sling mud at each other.

Homeboy, seriously, heed thine own advice. Take a deep breath, step back, and take a look at things. Even if you hate the little baby Jesus you can still be a nice person.
 
2008-02-03 11:32:43 AM
i hate jimmy page: imfallen_angel any religious person pee in your cereals a long time ago and you never got over it?

Grow up kid. This is the time to talk about big boy theology not sling mud at each other.


LOL...

You really are clueless...

I am not even bothering discussing anything that required any intelligence with you, because how you're acting doesn't show any...

Heck, even my youngest child talks more maturely than the crap that you've been posting.

You aren't discussing anything, you are whining and trying to "win". Nothing more...
 
2008-02-03 11:34:04 AM
i hate jimmy page
It's ok, I forgive you and I still love you.

It's ok. I still enjoy taking arrogant tossers by the scruff of the neck and silencing them.
 
2008-02-03 11:40:33 AM
Well, between downtownkid, imfallen_angel and letrole there's so much Christian venom and hatred in this thread that atheists don't need to do anything but let you guys show your true nature. Between reading the Bible and talking with Christians like you, there can be no better endorsement of unbelief. So, by all means, don't stop.
 
2008-02-03 11:45:50 AM
ah3133: No, the logical solution is to make no claims about the existence or non-existence of God, since there is evidence of God. By saying "God exists", all you have done is replace one unfalsiable, nonsensical self-contradictory claim with another.

Right. Yet you yourself just said "If you are discussing it, you have already accepted the axiomatic truth of the premise that God exists". So I must accept that God exists, but I can't actually say it without being contradictory?

Now, replace God with "ah3133". According to you, I can't say "ah3133 exists", or "ah3133 doesn't exist," because either of these sentences would be contradictory. In other words, it is impossible to make any assertions of any kind, therefore any debate is impossible. If that's the case, then what the fark are you doing here? Just go away and disappear in a puff of your own warped logic.
 
2008-02-03 11:49:58 AM
i hate jimmy page: Well, between downtownkid, imfallen_angel and letrole there's so much Christian venom and hatred in this thread that atheists don't need to do anything but let you guys show your true nature. Between reading the Bible and talking with Christians like you, there can be no better endorsement of unbelief. So, by all means, don't stop.

I already stated that I'm not a Christian, nor follow any one religion.

But, like I already stated... you are trying to "win".

So now, you're at the level of insults again.

The only venom and hatred is from you... you are being an ass, are being served, and now you are whining and crapping yourself, and attempting to sound smart, but doing the opposite in the process.

You have showed yourself to be nothing but a whiny little kid that think that tried to be witty, and failed every time.

And let's not forget that most of your pot-shots are in the intelligence level of: "I know you are, but what am I?", and you are doing exactly what you claim others are doing.

Sorry kid, this ain't meant as an insult, but you really need to grow up.
 
2008-02-03 11:52:07 AM
i hate jimmy page: , between downtownkid, imfallen_angel and letrole there's so much Christian venom and hatred in this thread that atheists don't need to do anything but let you guys show your true nature. Between reading the Bible and talking with Christians like you, there can be no better endorsement of unbelief. So, by all means, don't stop.

Aww diddums, did that big old mean theist give you a real arse-whooping? Where's your smug unbelief now? You tried to debate by insult and smirk. You lost. It's not because of any relative merit of any of the arguments, it's rather because you are incompetent. You thought you were a master debater, but alas, you only act like one.
 
2008-02-03 11:52:34 AM
imfallen_angel: hmmm.. I guess rince and repeat... it appears that it still went over your head.

You really don't realize that you are double-talking, contradicting yourself?


Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed it. Maybe you could be so kind as to point it out? Since you've twice stated how obvious it is, I assume you're able to shine the light on it for those of us who just are not as sharp. Or is the limit of your skill in quoting people, claiming things, and hoping you're right?

You obviously are having some reading comprehension issues, so I hope you can decipher this.
 
2008-02-03 11:54:39 AM
letrole: it's rather because you are incompetent. You thought you were a master debater, but alas, you only act like one.

Someone throwing around ad homs should be slower to attack another's debate skills.
 
2008-02-03 11:55:34 AM
Antimatter

Egalitarian: Obscure
Just out of curiousity, since we are discussing the burden of proof for apparently non-existent entities.... can anyone here prove to the rest of us that he or she has a mind?

I post on Fark, therefore I am.

Your nothing more than a Bot till you show up at a fark party.

No offense to any bots (cyber or mechanical) who might be in this thread.


None taken.
 
2008-02-03 11:55:36 AM
Archie_Steel: ah3133: No, the logical solution is to make no claims about the existence or non-existence of God, since there is evidence of God. By saying "God exists", all you have done is replace one unfalsiable, nonsensical self-contradictory claim with another.

Right. Yet you yourself just said "If you are discussing it, you have already accepted the axiomatic truth of the premise that God exists". So I must accept that God exists, but I can't actually say it without being contradictory?

Now, replace God with "ah3133". According to you, I can't say "ah3133 exists", or "ah3133 doesn't exist," because either of these sentences would be contradictory. In other words, it is impossible to make any assertions of any kind, therefore any debate is impossible. If that's the case, then what the fark are you doing here? Just go away and disappear in a puff of your own warped logic.


Debate on this is impossible... many have tried for ...hmmm... thousands of years, and nothing has even been solved... has it?

What makes you believe that this generation will be different?

The fact is, no one knows at 100% what's next, what's out there, or what really happens when you die. Anyone that claims different is disillusioned, either side of this "debate".

I believe that conversations about POINTS OF VIEWS can be very stimulating, but, debating, to "prove" that YOU are right... not so much.
 
2008-02-03 11:56:02 AM
i hate jimmy page: Well, between downtownkid, imfallen_angel and letrole there's so much Christian venom and hatred in this thread...

I call bullshiat. Please provide examples of my "Christian venom".
 
2008-02-03 11:58:39 AM
Russad: imfallen_angel: hmmm.. I guess rince and repeat... it appears that it still went over your head.

You really don't realize that you are double-talking, contradicting yourself?

Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed it. Maybe you could be so kind as to point it out? Since you've twice stated how obvious it is, I assume you're able to shine the light on it for those of us who just are not as sharp. Or is the limit of your skill in quoting people, claiming things, and hoping you're right?

You obviously are having some reading comprehension issues, so I hope you can decipher this.


LOL... once again... trying to "win" by posting what you consider a witty insult?

So.. more contradictions..

UBBER FAIL
 
2008-02-03 12:01:55 PM
Interesting how Russad and i hate jimmy page both sound so much alike and also both use the phrase "reading comprehension" as an attack. You two think a lot alike, don't you?
 
2008-02-03 12:02:07 PM
It is very easy to see and understand why all of the known specific gods and religions were crafted from the imaginations of ancient humans. Here it is, [checks watch], 2008 and people still cling to this stuff. It really sheds light on how ancient many of us still are. Scary.

/How isn't religion a mind virus?
 
2008-02-03 12:06:24 PM
Russad:
Someone throwing around ad homs should be slower to attack another's debate skills.

Not really. Sometimes it's fair comment to direct arguments at the debater. This is the case here. If you care to follow the thread, you'll see the manner in which i hate jimmy page has conducted himself.
 
2008-02-03 12:10:03 PM
Science-damn all of you!
 
2008-02-03 12:18:49 PM
went to bed, woke up and this thread is still kicking! nice. god is not real. that is all.
 
2008-02-03 12:21:51 PM
Ow My Balls: It is very easy to see and understand why all of the known specific gods and religions were crafted from the imaginations of ancient humans. Here it is, [checks watch], 2008 and people still cling to this stuff. It really sheds light on how ancient many of us still are. Scary.

/How isn't religion a mind virus?


The fact is.. there is a lot that can't be accounted for, either for lack of abilities or knowledge on how to take notes for future generations, since the beginning of man.

Maybe some things that happened then, happened "then" because today's science would cause many to not believe.

Today, if you were to tell the world that you witnessed a miracle, you'd be ridiculed by many, and people would want it analyzed until they found an explanation, even if there wasn't a possible one, they'd still listen to the scientific "possible" alternative even if it was wrong.

I've got a very scientific mind, and I'm not religious, but I do keep an open mind that there might be more out there, and I enjoy EVERY theory, religious or scientific based.
 
2008-02-03 12:24:53 PM
imfallen_angel: I enjoy EVERY theory, religious or scientific based.

Can you name one religious "theory" that stands up to any scrutiny? Are you aware of the scientific definition of theory?
 
2008-02-03 12:27:18 PM
ah3133: So, either God exists, or all atheist arguments are nonsensical. Either way you lose.

I was wondering if you could tell me which religion is the one true religion. After all, now that you've ruled out the Atheists with your dazzling display of logic, how about whittling down all the false religions? Every religious faith claims that their beliefs are the one true faith and everyone else is wrong, they can't all be right? Logically, of course.

As for me, I betting its the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons will go to heaven end everyone else goes straight to hell for believing in false gods.

/dum dum de da da dum, de da da dum dum dum!
 
2008-02-03 12:28:59 PM
Samsaran: "I don't think so. You atheists should be careful about choosing Professor Dawkins as your poster child. He is an anti creationist for certain but his writings have a pantheistic thrust to them. He explains the mechanics of evolution and the development of life and to my view illustrates the divinity of life. Do not read divinity as meaning "supernatural" there is no supernatural ... there is only the natural albeit some of nature is as of yet beyond our ken. I had the pleasure of hearing him speak at the University of California at San Diego some years ago and I was spellbound."

www.imagehosting.com

Dawkins is not a pantheist, nor are a great many other explicitly atheistic men who have been retconned into mild mystics by the spiritual. Read Einstein's correspondence with the church when he was repeatedly accused of atheism. As sweeping and vast and grand as he probably felt the universe was, the language he used to describe it was specifically calculated to placate the clergy and the religious public. You and others eager to legitimize woo-woo mysticism have injected religious opinions into a man who cannot fight back on account of being dead. At least wait until Dawkins is in the ground before you start on him as well.
 
2008-02-03 12:38:21 PM
I saw a movie the other day that had a line that went something like, "Faith? Please. God is just an imaginary friend for adults."

I lol'd
 
2008-02-03 12:39:32 PM
whatshisname: imfallen_angel: I enjoy EVERY theory, religious or scientific based.

Can you name one religious "theory" that stands up to any scrutiny? Are you aware of the scientific definition of theory?


From Wiki (which covers it pretty much):
The word theory has a number of distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion.

In science, a theory is a mathematical or logical explanation, or a testable model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise falsified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theories commonly used to describe and explain this behaviour are Newton's theory of universal gravitation (see also gravitation), and general relativity.

In common usage, the word theory is often used to signify a conjecture, an opinion, or a speculation. In this usage, a theory is not necessarily based on facts; in other words, it is not required to be consistent with true descriptions of reality. This usage of theory leads to the common incorrect statement "It's not a fact, it's only a theory." True descriptions of reality are more reflectively understood as statements which would be true independently of what people think about them. In this usage, the word is synonymous with hypothesis.


So... any other cheap shot you'd like to make?

And for an example in religion... the easiest in Jesus... it's been proven scientifical that he did exist.

So... was he the real son of God, or just a very good man that attempted to help, and ended up used and misquoted instead?
 
2008-02-03 12:44:10 PM
imfallen_angel: So... any other cheap shot you'd like to make?

What was cheap about that? Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Firstly it has not been "proven scientifical" that Jesus existed. And even if it had been, that is not, as you point out, evidenc that God exists or that any of the tnets of religion have any basis in fact or theory.
 
2008-02-03 12:44:19 PM
Zamboro
Dawkins is not a pantheist,

Dawkins is a foaming zealot. He does sound quite sensible when he's working from his notes, but he easily goes off the deep end when giving an unscripted interview.
 
2008-02-03 12:44:59 PM
imfallen_angel: but I do keep an open mind that there might be more out there

I'm with you here, but I can walk about my life with confidence that whatever it is that spawned our observable universe and beyond isn't even close to what we've yet conceived. Especially religions with their funny hats.

Hell, even 80 short years ago, leading scientists believed the universe extended only as far as our own puny galaxy! (So puny that it would take light 100,000 years to traverse it (new window)) They couldn't even know to imagine that it was merely 1 of billions of other observable galaxies.

All of the big religions were well entrenched for centuries before then! They were well entrenched centuries before we even knew what microbiology was, for that matter.

I too love pondering the unimaginable. Whatever begat the universe must surely be fantastic. (It's not the mythical head of any established religion!)
 
2008-02-03 12:45:04 PM
By the scientific people... go read this (new window)...it's a great read

Einstein, who is regarded as one of the greatest (if not "the") scientist, Believed in God...

And trust me, he was smarter than all of you...and he didn't think that he had it all figured out.
 
2008-02-03 12:50:07 PM
whatshisname: imfallen_angel: So... any other cheap shot you'd like to make?

What was cheap about that? Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Firstly it has not been "proven scientifical" that Jesus existed. And even if it had been, that is not, as you point out, evidenc that God exists or that any of the tnets of religion have any basis in fact or theory.


Yup, it has been proven that he did... sorry to burst your bubble.

And again, as others stated it... they can't prove that God exist just as much as you can't prove that he doesn't.

That's what having an open mind is all about.

Anyone that believe that they've figured it out, should put a bullet to their brain, as... what's the point? Life is about learning... not about thinking that you know it all.
 
2008-02-03 12:50:21 PM
imfallen_angel: By the scientific people... go read this (new window)...it's a great read

Einstein, who is regarded as one of the greatest (if not "the") scientist, Believed in God...

And trust me, he was smarter than all of you...and he didn't think that he had it all figured out.


Einstein had difficulty tying his own shoes. :-)
 
2008-02-03 12:53:54 PM
imfallen_angel: Einstein, who is regarded as one of the greatest (if not "the") scientist, Believed in God...

That's debatable. One essay by a theologian does not make it so.

And trust me, he was smarter than all of you...and he didn't think that he had it all figured out.

Of course. No scientist believes have it all figure d out. We likely never will have it all figured out - some questions have no answers. But that does not lend one iota of legitimacy to religious ideas about the structure of the universe.
 
2008-02-03 12:55:32 PM
imfallen_angel: Yup, it has been proven that he did... sorry to burst your bubble.

Can you point me to a paper outlining the scientific evidence that Jesus existed?
 
2008-02-03 12:57:16 PM
The belief in an unobservable person is something based in the realms of emotion. Smart people can have emotional reasons to wish for the existence of a god.

Smart people can be wrong, too. Even Einstein.
 
2008-02-03 12:57:26 PM
Ow My Balls: imfallen_angel: but I do keep an open mind that there might be more out there

I'm with you here, but I can walk about my life with confidence that whatever it is that spawned our observable universe and beyond isn't even close to what we've yet conceived. Especially religions with their funny hats.

Hell, even 80 short years ago, leading scientists believed the universe extended only as far as our own puny galaxy! (So puny that it would take light 100,000 years to traverse it (new window)) They couldn't even know to imagine that it was merely 1 of billions of other observable galaxies.

All of the big religions were well entrenched for centuries before then! They were well entrenched centuries before we even knew what microbiology was, for that matter.

I too love pondering the unimaginable. Whatever begat the universe must surely be fantastic. (It's not the mythical head of any established religion!)


The day that we meet life out there, I sure hope that it'll be friendly. But I think that the Atheist (the ones that foam at the mouth the most) don't understand that maybe God does exist, and that there might be a scientic reason for his existence.

Maybe God is just not perceived correctly still and could exist, just not how people believe him to exist. If you go and read my pop-up about Einstein and God, I've always though of it in the same fashion, and it was a bit scary to see that one of the greatest mind had though about it in a very similar fashion.
 
2008-02-03 01:00:58 PM
imfallen_angel: The day that we meet life out there, I sure hope that it'll be friendly.

Oh, no doubt. I'm considered by many people to be the most outgoing, friendly person they've ever met. Sorry if I come off in any other fashion here on Fark. Do you like beer?
 
2008-02-03 01:01:52 PM
imfallen_angel: Maybe God is just not perceived correctly still and could exist, just not how people believe him to exist.

If you take that approach you might as well just say that God is dark matter, or God is the Grand Unified Theory and dispense with religion altogether.

Religion makes specific claims about a personal, omniscient God who grants access to an afterlife. None of which has any basis in theory or fact.
 
2008-02-03 01:03:55 PM
If there was a supremem intelligent being, it wouldn't have anything to do with being blamed for the senseless breeding of ignorant farktards, theotards, and anyone else on this planet who breeds a non-self-sutaining population.
EIther you are growing enough food for yourself and neighbors to share, while protecting clean water for you and your family, or you are part of the problem.
SO go forth and multiply, by all means. When you realize thi planet canno sustain all of you, and it cannot, right now, you will know fail as you eat your children.
In wilderness is the preservation of earth. Destroy that and you are doomed.
 
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