This?? ^{(^)}

GaryPDX: Ooo..that's looks juicy

Here's the PDF ^{(^)}

Not an engineer either, but it has lots of cool looking formulas :)

Or this ^{(^)}

this ^{(^)}

or

this ^{(^)}

And finally this ^{(^)}

My house sits on a windy knoll surrounded by open fields.
I'm going to replace the roof, soo, anyway.
I'd like both solar and wind and sell any I don't use back.
I pay @ $40 a month for electricity now.

Idea I've been kicking around for a year or so...

As more technology hits the market, open a small showroom for residential solar technology. Modeled after the swimming pool/hot tub type showrooms, where a number of different manufacturers are represented. Mock up a few displays, and have 2-3 salesmen that know their numbers manning the showroom. Do the sales work, and contract out the installations and service. Have all the literature on tax breaks, grants, selling back excess power, etc. available to go over with customers. Open a few of these showrooms, starting down at the Jersey/Delaware beach towns where population is mostly seasonal. Pay your summer A/C bills by generating and selling power back during the other 8 months of the year.

Thoughts? Every year this gets a little more feasible.

This is the "horizontal" nature I speak of. Millions of small operations.I'm looking at combinations too. If I have an array that's 8000 square feet, I can raise it 20 feet and construct a water collection system underneath. Falling water also generates electricity. The three golden elements, wind, sun and falling water.

I think things will go this way, however who owns the transmission lines? In this scenario? It still has to be somewhat vertical? Horizontal expansion in that regards would be ugly/messy.

GaryPDX 2008-02-02 09:39:05 AM
We should be looking at energy as a business model, NOT sucking off the "teat" of consumption. It's an Industry potential.

How about 'leasing' people's spare generation capacity and selling the power back to the grid as a centralized company? The company handles overhead and logistics, the masses provide the capacity, the profits are split by all involved.

Does the power company really give you a 1:1 credit for the power you put back into the grid?

I hope you don't have any neighbors for that eyesore.

I'm just waiting for Nanosolar to get cranked all the way up. Their production process is about as simple as the printing press (offset lithography), then the rest of the hardware is about as simple as a sine wave generator.

Their cells are going to be under $1/watt, hard to tell the installed costs. Properly engineered, the solid state converters could have a 50 year life span and be amortized over two generations of cells. But then again, I suspect Nanosolar is experiencing a gradual increase in performance, so maybe the first gen installations will be twice as large per watt than the next.

well garypdx...that is what frustrates me about the modern gop, and the dnc, for that matter.

there is big money to be made in saving the planet.

they act like they don't care about making money...which lends to the notion that we, as a species, have no future.

we should be reaping the power of the sea, and i could go on and on...but i won't.

i know that we have a working anti gravity powered craft...and that one fact blows the doors off of the whole energy crisis.

we "paid" for it...and we should be able to use it for all mankind.

-my contempt is growing daily.

the sun should be there.

/helpful.

Bauer 2008-02-02 09:49:54 AM
well garypdx...that is what frustrates me about the modern gop, and the dnc, for that matter.

there is big money to be made in saving the planet.

they act like they don't care about making money...which lends to the notion that we, as a species, have no future.

we should be reaping the power of the sea, and i could go on and on...but i won't.

i know that we have a working anti gravity powered craft...and that one fact blows the doors off of the whole energy crisis.

we "paid" for it...and we should be able to use it for all mankind.

-my contempt is growing daily.

You're right, but when has anything useful been done EVER by waiting around for the man to get his act together? Better to ask forgiveness than permission... to hell with 'em.

From some amount of scuttlebutt on the net, many of the companies producing CIGS panels are having troubles with the materials and/or production process. Beyond that, at least one company (Nanosolar) admits that their entire expected production for the year will be sent to Europe, and especially Germany, due to high average energy prices and thus a shorter time to profitability. So, panels might be hard to obtain for the time being, to say nothing of demand causing a bit of a price spike.

Still, I'm stoked that so many companies are getting in on the cheap solar act.

Great, an epic green TFD and I barely understand one word in ten of it. Good luck with it though!

I've looked in to this, IMO right now the capital that the average consumer needs to put out to purchase, install and integrate is just not going to justify it. Very, very rough calculations at my location (Jersey Shore) gave me about 7 years to break even.

My idea was a self sustaining landscaping operation. The energy and pollution a typical operation consume and produce are nuts. Don't think the equipment technology is there yet though. (Ever try a DC powered lawnmower?)

Also, PDX--> Portland? Will this be feasible? That's just a wild guess, I always think rain in the NW there.

Question for the geek squad: My father is looking to get an array of solar panels for his house. We're looking to use it for either heating water or selling back to the grid.

Should we buy high end panels now or wait a few years for the emerging technologies to mature?

Sharkface217: Should we buy high end panels now or wait a few years for the emerging technologies to mature?

That's what's stopping me at the moment. The newer technologies that aren't quite into production yet look awesomely promising. I think the next 5 years may bring a mini-evolution in solar energy.

(thx for this thread, very interesting)

thisispete: There are cheaper solar cells being produced now.

Yeah, that.

I think all of you 'sell it back to the grid' people need to remember that you are going to have to get a conversion computer system, which will auto kick you off/on the grid as you generate your power, and will prepare the power you generate to be transmitted along the power lines. It's another step.

Realistic goals should not be to 'sell power back' but to reduce both your power used and footprint. This can be done by increasing your efficiency, doing without some things, etc.

Installing PV systems is a good idea. But you're never going to make 20k/year doing it. Your profit margin will be close to 10%, if that. I personally think 0% is a real number, but I am a pessimist.

"This is exactly why I'm not waiting around. If I build it and produce energy, they HAVE to buy it by law."

you may recieve a visit from people you would not like to know.

sometimes, imo...it is better to cut off the whole foot than to merely step on a few toes.

my research into anti gravity power production has caused some stress for some people.

-they know what you are up to.

i used to manage an isp...and i'm no cherry when it comes to electronic design and fabrication.
for twenty five years...i have searched for my answers...and i am really close.

my pc at home has been hacked by people who know what they are doing.

they know what you are up to.

i don't care anymore.

i get phone calls at home...and at the office, from people who say one thing.

"do you love your kids?"

-how do you answer that?

i tell them that "of course i do...and i love you too...and that is why i'm doing what i'm doing".

i think it blows their minds when they hear that.

in the past four years...i have recieved seven calls from people who tell me i'm "not listening".

they know that i'm close.

-all i'm saying is...be careful.

btw...i'm in perfect health...so if you should hear of my demise...remember this thread.

you and i differ on a few political ideals...but i figured you would be the one person that i could tell this to that would have no agenda to see this wonderful technology stay lost.

i love my country...and my world.

that is why i put myself in this situation.

and now that i've spoken to you...you are somewhat in the same boat.
the ip tracking is 'unseen'.

however...you do not have my notes.
i've gone "back to" paper and i haven't stored anything electronically for three years.

-so...you are cool.

when you get the 'phone call'...just tell them that 'bauer' is all wack and that you don't believe a word i said.

if you want to read something similar to my research...google 'vril'.

-good luck.

A couple of things I'd like to point out:

1) Actual average solar power hitting the earth's surface is ~1000W/meter^2 (1400W/m^2 is if you're in space, I believe)

2) Most states have "net metering laws" which dictate prices, so you don't really have to guess (and many states have rebate programs for the PV cells too!)

3) The cost of any given PV cell per watt is probably going to be nearly identical, whether thin-film silicon, traditional or CIGS. There is a market for solar panels that generate electricity, and this market doesn't really care about the underlying technology. People keep discussing this in regards to NanoSolar's "$1/watt" panels . . . they might be able to produce them for $1/watt, but it will be a long time until competition drives them down to selling at that point.

4) Have you looked at Concentrating Solar Power? There is a link to some "DIY" type stuff here: http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Concentrating/concentrating.htm

It's not quite as "buy it and plug it in" simple as PV, but it might be cheaper for a big setup. This is what many commercial solar installations use. You basically use mirrors to concentrate the sun on a working fluid, like oil or something, then use that to run a sterling generator (or just boil water for a normal steam generator).

Thanks GaryPDX , thisispete, and meshman.

Bauer: -good luck.

whut?

GaryPDX: Energy has historically been a vertical industry. I believe it will expand horizontally and small businesses generating excess power will be a huge growth avenue. Just a thought.

I have been thinking the same thing for a couple of years, but get that anxious feeling because I have no idea what to do with it. So, Ill just wait until I get an extra 50 grand and buy some up. Until then, let the world advance around me I guess.

If your latitude isn't compatible with solar concentrators (BTW, there is no limit to how big they can be . . .it might not be feasible though), going for a PV installation is probably a bad idea, too. Someone said you were in the Northwest, I think? You really should do a really thorough economic analysis of this, but some factors to consider:

-what your states net-metering laws are (if they have any yet). Some states, I believe, don't force the power companies to actually give you money, just *credit* for more power from them.

-what rebates they have available (and limits on those)

-what the average insolation is at your location (how many watts/m^2). I have data for Seattle in a book, and it's (if on a surface tilted at an angle equal to the latitude):
December: 403 BTU/ft^2/day
March: 1165
June: 1465
September: 1332

By comparison, Los angeles has the following insolation numbers:
December: 1496 BTU/ft^2/day
March: 1936
June: 1920
September: 2114

If you'll notice, someone in Los Angeles with the same idea as you would make *way* more money than you would.

Have you tried getting cheaper (free) electricity by running an extension cord from your neighbours garage? That should be a lot easier than the gobbeldy gook you've considering now!

Rusty_shack: By comparison, Los angeles has the following insolation numbers:
December: 1496 BTU/ft^2/day
March: 1936
June: 1920
September: 2114

Interesting.

Although the sun's power is about 1400 W/m2 as ZAZ said, only about 1000 W/m2 reaches the ground under 'ideal' conditions. Allowing for the fact that the Earth spins (allegedly), you'll get about a third of that (averaged over 24 hours) for a fixed-angle collector. (I get 1/pi for a photocell on the equator at the equinox.) So the best anyone's ever going to get is about 7.64 kWh per day.

Given that 1 kWh/m2 is 317 btu/ft^2 (I reckon), the ideal insolation is therefore 2,422 btu/ft^2/day. So the figures in the book look realistic.

Assuming LA gets an average of 1,800 btu/ft^2/day averaged across the year, that's 2,072 kWh per year per square metre. With 20%-efficient photocells, that's 414 kWh/m2/yr of electricity, worth about $75 savings at 18 cents/kWh. Assuming you want a 5-year payback, you can pay up to $375 per square metre ($35 per square ft) for the system.

Best price I can find for the panels is about $5/watt electricity or $100/sq ft. Not including the inverter, installation, controls etc. So the price/efficiency needs to improve by a factor of about three before it becomes financially sensible, even in LA.

I don't think I'll bother doing the same calc for here in the sunny UK...

frangelico_y_flamingo

Assuming LA gets an average of 1,800 btu/ft^2/day averaged across the year, that's 2,072 kWh per year per square metre. With 20%-efficient photocells, that's 414 kWh/m2/yr of electricity, worth about $75 savings at 18 cents/kWh. Assuming you want a 5-year payback, you can pay up to $375 per square metre ($35 per square ft) for the system.

Best price I can find for the panels is about $5/watt electricity or $100/sq ft.

Most off-the-shelf panels come with 20 or 25-year warranties these days. A 5-year payoff may be too aggressive, but even your own calculations show a payoff is comfortably possible within the warranty period at current electricity rates, and I'd posit that it's a safe bet the rates will go up at least a bit in the next decade.

Bauer: and now that i've spoken to you...you are somewhat in the same boat.

Wow, your brand of crazy is a strong one.

BTW, you do realize that you didn't just say that to GaryPDX but to everyone in this greenlit thread?

I would also like to point out that there is likely no way any sort of rain collection system could generate enough power to pay off the equipment needed to build it.

Portland also only gets an average of 36.5 inches/year of rain, and it's dispersed over the year. Even if you were to collect it all (from all 8000 ft^2 or so), and funnel it through a pretty efficient turbine, it would like generate something on the order of tens of watts, and only while it was raining basically.

It might actually be more economical to find/construct some sort of large pond on a hill somewhere, make another pond at the bottom of the hill, and then pump water uphill at night when electricity is much cheaper, and then generate power in the day when power is more expensive. This system is called "pumped storage," and I know that the installation that the LA department of water and power uses is somewhere around 85% efficient, so depending on local prices and stuff, *might* be feasible.

But at that point, they're paying us instead of the other way around. Transmission companies will be like UPS. How much to ship those protons?


Ok.. but you can go to ups or fed ex or dhl. If the transmission companies are still vertical monopolies, what makes you think they're going to charge a reasonable rate to deliver your power anywhere? If you don't like they're rates how are you going to deliver this power to your customers?

GaryPDX: Rusty_shack: If you'll notice, someone in Los Angeles with the same idea as you would make *way* more money than you would.

With the cost of living there they'll need it. I may not make more, but I'll keep more...lol

Well you wouldn't actually build it *in* los angeles. You would find somewhere at the same latitude with dirt cheap prices (like say, a couple hours outside of LA, or in Arizona or Texas). You basically want to install it in a desert.

frangelico_y_flamingo - You're basically right. The economics of it don't make a whole lot of sense in many places. Some states have heavy subsidies, however (on the order of $2.50/watt in some places, I believe), which make it a way better deal.


It is especially important, when doing the economic analysis, to consider that the money you spend for initial installation costs isn't *free*.

-Are you taking out a loan to pay for everything? What is the interest rate? Fixed or adjustable?
-What is inflation going to be over the same time period?
-If you do have the cash on-hand, what is your guaranteed rate of return if you otherwise invested it?

If you realize that you'll "break even" with your initial costs 15 years down the line, how much interest would you have earned if you had of just invested in CD's, bonds or the stock market?

acanuck: There's also a lot of snake oil out there - the best production efficiency so far is from SunPower, nearing 25%...there's THEORY, then there's reality...as someone said, inefficient means more area, but roughly the same capital cost per kW.

Then there's the fact they only last about ten to twenty years...

You mean that most all panels are warrantied for 90% electrical production by 10 years, and 80% production by year 20, and that most panels will last at least 30 years? If yes, then you're correct.

Also, it makes a lot of sense for businesses to implement. I know, because I've done it. To find out more, check out my 10kw, 48 panel array (new window).

Bauer:

You're obviously not listening.

BTW, LOVE your new house in Paulding.

/yes, I am kidding

MrSteve007 - Very cool setup. Don't you have to take into account your minimum rate of return when calculating ROI, however? For instance, had you invested $97000 with a 5% average return, after 10 years you would have $158,000. If you instead invest that $97,000 in your solar array, you estimate after 10 years you will have $80,000. I realize there are a lot of tax breaks, rebates, and all of that, but I would estimate your actual break-even would be a bit farther out.

A little skewed on topic here but the Molecularly Distorted Titania system just researched to put the Titania electrolysis into the visible light spectrum might actually begin producing a more reliable storable energy system for smaller scale household use. A combination of the two systems will probably end up resulting in a better efficiency especially since the Titania system isn't based on direct applied surface area but can use a reflector system.

The MDTE system seems to be a more transportable system overall with the advantage of being directly adjustable to climate conditions AND being able to operate in a reflexive state with the primary component protected from the environment under a shield. The MDTE converts water directly into H2 with oxegen waste output but I've not found any efficiency numbers yet. I assume that this system has a MUCH higher concentration capacity than photovoltaic of any construction type used in general market.

One of the reasons that the solar pannels are being sucked up by Germany and Denmark is that they have laws forcing power distrobution to buy their wattage back to the grid at a premium value, thus making the other network customers literally pay for private generators to own such equipment. If enough customers end up with these systems the governments will be forced to stop the buy-back premiums policy, leaving a sudden market glut.

One interesting system ignored within this discussion is efficiency vs oil-heating collection as far as primary expense.

I've yet to see an article (book) that fully includes the options for residential power and it looks like such a book may expand again soon... just trying to stay on top of the technology.

Back to the concept of "breaking even"... you all realize that most of the materials used in such compound solar collection equipment are mandatory recycle materials that can end up COSTING MORE to recycle. You can't simply walk into Pep Boys and trade in 30 90Ah lead batteries as cores without having a manager freak out and call a lawyer. I've found that most people don't ever consider the simple 15% loss of operation cost into the production numbers either.

15% loss of operation? You lose 15% of the power you produced by converting the power you stored into household unless you use a large number of high efficiency 12/24/48/96v converted equipment.

This is why home electrical generation rarely leaves the "8hp" variety.

To be dead honest with you if you're wanting to do this kind of thing "for the environment" you could have about the same ammount of impact by manually recycling your own shiat into fertilizer to increase carbon sequestering and environmental dynamatics local to your own home.

Or put a valve in that dumps your washing machine's rinse water into a holding tank to water your grass even. Little bit of gravity and skipping liquid softener can save 30 gallons of water purification PER HOUSEHOLD per day.

There, enough slightly off topic.

Rusty_shack: The main purpose of the array is to keep our business running during power outages. Last year we had a 8 day outage, for us, we lost $6,000 for every hour we were down. We could have gone with a simple generator, but a generator wouldn't have paid for it's cost over time. The ability to work during any outage has already paid for itself in increased profits. The free public relations and power offsetting is just the cream on the top.

Also, for a class C corporation, $32,000 in tax rebates offsets ~$60,000 in profits, which increases the payoff to within 5 years.

EvilClosetMonkey: As more technology hits the market, open a small showroom for residential solar technology. Modeled after the swimming pool/hot tub type showrooms, where a number of different manufacturers are represented. Mock up a few displays, and have 2-3 salesmen that know their numbers manning the showroom. Do the sales work, and contract out the installations and service. Have all the literature on tax breaks, grants, selling back excess power, etc. available to go over with customers. Open a few of these showrooms, starting down at the Jersey/Delaware beach towns where population is mostly seasonal. Pay your summer A/C bills by generating and selling power back during the other 8 months of the year.

Please, make it so.

I am in awe of every one of you who can comprehend the science behind these energy systems. Just because I'm a drudge, a working mother, and a liberal arts major to boot, doesn't mean I don't give a shiat about finding alternative sources of power that will a) be easier on the planet b) be easier on my wallet. I just waste all my free time and energy on getting my whites whiter, preventing my daughter from dressing like a hooker, teaching my son not to spit in the street, and reading Fark.

I noted in another thread I've already priced solar for my house and it's COMPLETELY out of reach, even if I knew which type of system was the most reliable, cost efficient, etc etc. It's way past time for this to become a real market option.

Harvesting the energy in rain. (new window)


Put your solar cells on poles, and keep your eye on these kids.

PirateKing: Harvesting the energy in rain. (new window)


Put your solar cells on poles, and keep your eye on these kids.

Did you actually read that article? You can get 1 Watt-hour per YEAR per square meter. You could generate one watt-hour by bicycling for about a minute, for comparison. This *might* be used in like a rainforest to power sensor/monitoring stations. . . that's about it, though.