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(Wall Street Journal)   Three young men hopped up on pizza and beer try to determine experientially whether waterboarding is torture. Hilarity ensues   (online.wsj.com) divider line 82
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2425 clicks; posted to Politics » on 31 Jan 2008 at 6:59 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2008-01-31 04:10:35 PM
Nice link there, Tardmitter.
 
2008-01-31 04:41:27 PM
Sad, and it might cost money to read it too.

hopefully somebody who is registered already could post the rest for us

/please
 
2008-01-31 04:43:17 PM
with...
 
2008-01-31 04:44:26 PM
Three Young Men
Try Waterboarding
And Tell the Tale
By YOCHI J. DREAZEN
January 31, 2008

RIO RANCHO, N.M. -- One night last month, Jean-Pierre Larroque drove into the desert here, lay down in the road and waited for one of his best friends to waterboard him.

Just a few hours earlier, the 26-year-old Peace Corps volunteer had been debating with two close friends whether waterboarding is torture. Finishing up a pizza dinner, Mr. Larroque casually suggested that the three settle the matter by trying it out for themselves.

They filled a two-liter Coke bottle with water, grabbed a small towel and headed to a vacant patch of dirt road in this suburb of Albuquerque. With a video camera rolling, one of the friends draped the towel over Mr. Larroque's face and began to pour.

Waterboarding is the centerpiece of a bitter political debate about the Bush administration's methods of interrogating terrorist suspects. The nomination of Attorney General Michael Mukasey was almost derailed by his refusal to take a clear stance on the technique, and Mr. Mukasey angered Democratic lawmakers anew yesterday by again refusing to say whether waterboarding is illegal. The Central Intelligence Agency has been embroiled in controversy over the destruction of tapes showing CIA officers waterboarding terrorist suspects. Waterboarding has been a subject in recent Hollywood movies, including the Matt Damon film "The Bourne Ultimatum" and Reese Witherspoon's "Rendition."

But waterboarding, which induces the sensation of drowning, is an abstract issue for most Americans. Few are familiar with the details. Even fewer know anyone who has been interrogated, let alone tortured.

Some elite military personnel are waterboarded to prepare them for possible capture, but it is not part of conventional training. One civilian policy maker known to have been waterboarded is Daniel Levin, a high-ranking Justice Department lawyer who subjected himself to it in 2004 to see whether it constituted torture; he decided it did. Republican presidential front-runner John McCain, a veteran who was harshly interrogated while imprisoned in Vietnam, thinks it's torture, too.

Curiosity

The number of regular Americans who have waterboarded themselves is small. Some do it out of curiosity, some as a prank. All are voluntarily experimenting with something the U.S. military -- along with most human-rights organizations -- considers torture.
WATCH THE VIDEOS

See the videos recorded by Jean-Pierre Larroque and his friends and Wesley Sherwood and his friends, and watch Kaj Larsen's report for Current TV. Note: The following videos contain graphic content.

Waterboarding has been in use since at least the Spanish Inquisition. Many medical professionals warn that it can be fatal. In Senate testimony last fall, Allen Keller, a physician and professor at the New York University School of Medicine, said that waterboarding creates "a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water." For those who have gone through waterboarding, the long-term effects can include panic attacks, depression and post-traumatic stress disorder, Dr. Keller warned at the time.

Kaj Larsen, a military veteran and journalist, had himself waterboarded on camera for a segment on Current TV, the left-leaning, youth-oriented cable channel created by former Vice President Al Gore.

In an interview on National Public Radio, Mr. Larsen said the experiment was an attempt to "let the public decide for themselves whether this is the kind of behavior we should be engaging in." He told the interviewer it induced "sheer panic" and felt "like having a hot coal in your chest that you can't get out."

Wesley Sherwood, a teenager in Knoxville, Tenn., says he and his friends decided to try it to win an online dare contest hosted by the Web site Makemeking.com.

A video posted on YouTube begins with Mr. Sherwood mugging for the camera as his friends strap him to a sheet of plasterboard, cover his face with Saran wrap and douse him with water. He holds up well until they drape a towel over his face and waterboard him a second time.

After a few seconds, Mr. Sherwood begins thrashing wildly and breaks the board with his head in an effort to get loose. The video, which has been viewed nearly 60,000 times, ends with Mr. Sherwood looking pale and very somber.

"You can't help but feel that you're going to drown," he says in the interview. "You get a bottomless-pit sensation in your stomach and it's like all of the bad feelings in the world rolled into one."

Mr. Larroque and his two friends, Walter Gaspar, 27, and Trent Toulouse, 27, had frequently talked about whether waterboarding should be considered torture.

"It doesn't leave a mark like if someone put a cigarette out on your face, and it's not going to kill you," says Mr. Larroque, a rail-thin man with wavy hair and stubble on his face. "So the question we kept coming back to was whether waterboarding could be torture if it mainly affected your mind."

Trying It Out

On Dec. 11, the three friends got together for pizza and beer at Mr. Gaspar's house. They were watching cable-news reports about congressional efforts to ban waterboarding when Mr. Larroque and Mr. Toulouse began to joke about trying it out for themselves.

The conversations turned serious as they discovered that waterboarding required no training or equipment. Mr. Larroque found a "How To Do It" guide at Waterboarding.org, which opposes the practice. It said the only things needed were an inclined surface, a container of water and a damp towel or piece of plastic wrap. The plastic wrap is put over the mouth, leaving the nose and eyes uncovered. The water is then poured into the person's nose, filling his sinuses. The plastic, meanwhile, prevents the person from expelling the water. With a towel, the cloth is used to cover the person's whole face before the water is poured.
[Jean-Pierre Larroque being waterboarded.]
Jean-Pierre Larroque being waterboarded.

'Saturday-Night Antics'

Mr. Larroque, who will move to Uganda in February to begin his Peace Corps work, says it was clear from the beginning that he would be the one waterboarded. Mr. Toulouse, who is studying psychology in Canada, didn't want to be the subject. Mr. Gaspar, who works as a waiter in Albuquerque, participated reluctantly.

"I just didn't like the idea of waterboarding my best friend," Mr. Gaspar says. "It seemed a little outside the realm of Saturday-night antics."

That left the question of where to do the waterboarding. Mr. Larroque, who wanted to film the experiment, proposed doing it in Mr. Gaspar's house, where the lighting would be best. Mr. Gaspar vetoed the idea. "My fiancée would be a little unhappy with me if she found a huge puddle of water in the house with Jean-Pierre passed out next to it," he recalls reasoning.

Mr. Gaspar suggested going to an undeveloped part of town not far away. It was just after 10 p.m. when Mr. Gaspar drove with his friends to a narrow dirt road called Progress Boulevard.

The initial plan was to have Mr. Larroque lie on the hood of the car, but he kept sliding off. Instead, they spotted a short stretch of road with a modest incline.

With Mr. Gaspar filming, Mr. Larroque lay down on the frozen ground with his arms at his sides and his head leaning back. Mr. Toulouse poured.

On the videotape, the water hits Mr. Larroque for about 10 seconds before he jerks upright, sending the towel flying.

In a posting on his blog, Mr. Larroque said he was surprised by how fast his air supply ran out. In other circumstances, he says he can hold his breath long enough to swim the length of a pool.

"Waterboarding is like a one-way valve," he said in an interview. "You've got water pouring in and the cloth keeps you from spitting it out, so you can only exhale once....Even holding my breath, it felt like the air was being sucked out, like a vacuum."

It left no lasting physical damage, making waterboarding arguably "a more humane" way of forcing information out of an otherwise uncooperative prisoner, he said.

On the other hand, Mr. Larroque remembers feeling blind panic as his air supply ran out. Willingly inducing similar feelings in another human being would be torture, he believes.

"This leaves no mark, no trace. It's almost like the ideal way of torturing someone," he said. "This is torture 2.0."
 
2008-01-31 05:03:06 PM
"Nooobody expects the French Inquisition!"
 
2008-01-31 05:05:01 PM
TY mediaho. I honestly think waterboarding is being blown out of proportion. Bring back the days of dudes being hung on the wall doused with water, and hit with a battery charger and sponges.
 
2008-01-31 05:09:55 PM
Of course it's torture. Would you want them (whoever "they" may be at any point in time) doing it to our soldiers? Of course not.
"But they're evil and will do it anyway!" you argue.
Sure.

Here's the kicker, though. We're supposed to be better than they are.
 
2008-01-31 05:27:30 PM
I think that instead of the standard water cooler over the head of the winning coach celebration at the end of the Super Bowl, the losing coach should be waterboarded. It should be televised as part of the game and do much to illuminate the true nature of the procedure. Besides, it's just a prank right? Just a bit of hazing not much unlike the water cooler soak itself... I'm sure people will see that.
 
2008-01-31 07:05:40 PM
Meh...I've already resolved this issue. Does waterboarding permanently and physically maim a person? No. Might it perchance emotionally scar a person - yes. Is torture defined as physically or mentally scarring a person? If both - then who defines the word torture, a dictionary? The U.N.? None of us would want to be waterboarded. How many of us would use it to try and save a loved one from a predator? In the micro - I bet we would ALL use it - in the macro, we may hold a commendably higher ideal where it should not be used cuz we're neither the victim nor the predator.
 
2008-01-31 07:10:00 PM
TheCid: Here's the kicker, though. We're supposed to be better than they are.

I think the real kicker is that soldiers were court marshaled during Vietnam for waterboarding prisoners. There's no argument that this breaks US law. Define it as torture or not, it's still illegal.
 
2008-01-31 07:10:34 PM
FTFA: It left no lasting physical damage, making waterboarding arguably "a more humane" way of forcing information out of an otherwise uncooperative prisoner, he said.

On the other hand, Mr. Larroque remembers feeling blind panic as his air supply ran out. Willingly inducing similar feelings in another human being would be torture, he believes.

"This leaves no mark, no trace. It's almost like the ideal way of torturing someone," he said. "This is torture 2.0."


You guys didn't even try hard.

Try forcing water into the persons lungs. That is the level III water-boarding technique that
will kick your ass.

apologizing pieces of shiat.
 
2008-01-31 07:12:10 PM
Friction8r
How many of us would use it to try and save a loved one from a predator? In the micro - I bet we would ALL use it - in the macro, we may hold a commendably higher ideal where it should not be used cuz we're neither the victim nor the predator.


What is that, the Jack Bauer approach to debating public policy?
 
2008-01-31 07:13:28 PM
Friction8r: Meh...I've already resolved this issue. Does waterboarding permanently and physically maim a person? No.

Sorry, sparky, you lose in one.
In Senate testimony last fall, Allen Keller, a physician and professor at the New York University School of Medicine, said that waterboarding creates "a real risk of death from actually drowning or suffering a heart attack or damage to the lungs from inhalation of water."

Additionally, capillaries in the lungs can burst, causing pneumonia and other severe infections, leading to death.

Which leads us to:
Might it perchance emotionally scar a person - yes. Is torture defined as physically or mentally scarring a person? If both

Torture is actually defined as physically or mentally scarring a person - no need for the and. But it's okay, because as seen above, it is an and.

- then who defines the word torture, a dictionary? The U.N.?

Right, can't trust those hippies.
Seriously, though, torture in this respect is defined in international law in the Geneva Convention. The Geneva Convention was signed by this country. Therefore, it's part of the laws of the land (remember that phrase in the Constitution?). Finally, it's also in the US Code of Laws and the US Code of Military Justice.

So, yeah, it's already illegal. We don't need to quibble over the definitions of words.

How many of us would use it to try and save a loved one from a predator? In the micro - I bet we would ALL use it - in the macro, we may hold a commendably higher ideal where it should not be used cuz we're neither the victim nor the predator.

No, this false dichotomy is ignorant at best and misleading at worst. It assumes wrongly that torture would actually accomplish something towards "saving a loved one from a predator". Frankly, it does nothing whatsoever, other than making you feel tough. It's a waste of time and resources that in an emergency (OMG! A Ticking Timebomb!) could be better used elsewhere.
 
2008-01-31 07:19:02 PM

Basically, the definition of torture is:

Severe mental or physical damage designed to coerce someone or a third party to gain information.

There is no room for dicking around here. If someone is in your custody -- treat them with respect.

If they aren't respectful to you, restrain them -- but you aren't allowed to hurt them.

Pain applied to get information: torture
Pain applied for other reasons: assault
 
2008-01-31 07:19:27 PM
See? Just frat pranks. Waterboarding is actually fun!

This country is beyond farked.
 
2008-01-31 07:21:54 PM
keithgabryelski: You guys didn't even try hard.

Try forcing water into the persons lungs. That is the level III water-boarding technique that
will kick your ass.

apologizing pieces of shiat.


Yeah, that... Waterboarding is not "ooh, he's pouring water on my face. Anyone who couldn't stand up to this is a pussy."
Waterboarding is "oh, god, he's drowning me and punching me in the stomach so I can't hold my breath and slapping me around and shaking me and I'm gonna die!"
 
2008-01-31 07:23:29 PM
Next-up: Is homicide really murder!!?
 
2008-01-31 07:28:15 PM
EdNortonsTwin: Next-up: Is homicide really murder!!?

Not when the state does it.
 
2008-01-31 07:38:45 PM
Americans that do this have too much time on their hands and need a good swift kick to the yambag. Torture is wrong. Snap out of it. Bunch of sociopaths.

/And stay off my lawn! Pervs.
 
2008-01-31 07:38:53 PM
EdNortonsTwin: Is homicide really murder!!?

homicide just means a killing. It can be justified, such as by a police officer in the line of duty, a soldier in war, a citizen in the act of self defense, or a death where blame cannot be attached.

A murder is an illegal homicide.
/I know, a bit drawn out for snark, but that's how I roll
 
2008-01-31 07:39:07 PM
EdNortonstwin Is homicide really murder

Next up, is war really war? Do we really have to kill the bad meanies who fight against us? Let's just give em soccer balls and lollipops and every lil ting gonna be alright! If someone kidnapped you're loved one, you caught the kidnapper but your loved one was missing, every last one of you would at the very least use waterboarding to ascertain the location of your loved one. But since you won't have to face that situation, you'll instead spew some bs about how you'd turn the meanie over to the police and let them offer milk and cookies to the predator.
 
2008-01-31 07:42:32 PM
This might be a little off topic, but I am getting sick of seeing "Hilarity ensues" in political headlines. What about the other presidential contenders? Stop giving Hillary all the free publicity! Start using Obamity and Mccainity! Maybe even Romnity!
/on second thought, leave Romney and Mccain out of this all together!
 
2008-01-31 07:42:40 PM
Friction8r: EdNortonstwin Is homicide really murder

Next up, is war really war? Do we really have to kill the bad meanies who fight against us? Let's just give em soccer balls and lollipops and every lil ting gonna be alright! If someone kidnapped you're loved one, you caught the kidnapper but your loved one was missing, every last one of you would at the very least use waterboarding to ascertain the location of your loved one. But since you won't have to face that situation, you'll instead spew some bs about how you'd turn the meanie over to the police and let them offer milk and cookies to the predator.


This is so farking brain dead.
 
2008-01-31 07:46:05 PM
HotWingConspiracy This is so farking brain dead

Scintillating and substantive rebuttal.
 
2008-01-31 07:46:23 PM
TheCid:

Here's the kicker, though. We're supposed to be better than they are.



We are....and always will be.
 
F42
2008-01-31 07:47:06 PM
Friction8r: If someone kidnapped you're loved one, you caught someone who may or may not be the kidnapper but your loved one was missing, every last one of you would at the very least use waterboarding to ascertain the location of your loved one.

No.

This irrational belief you have that if someone is in custody, they are obviously guilty of something? Lettitgo.
 
2008-01-31 07:49:42 PM
Friction8r: HotWingConspiracy This is so farking brain dead

Scintillating and substantive rebuttal.


Wait, wait....you want someone to seriously rebut "OMFG if you won't torture him, you want to give him cookies!"

Retarded appeals to emotion and amazingly retarded false dichotomies just aren't good fertilizer for a "scintillating and substantive rebuttal".
 
2008-01-31 07:49:50 PM
The_Sponge
We are....and always will be.

With a myopic view like that, you almost certainly won\'t be.
 
2008-01-31 07:50:53 PM
Friction8r: Scintillating and substantive rebuttal

You wanted actual rebuttal to that drivel? Fine.

Do we really have to kill the bad meanies who fight against us?

Yes. Nobody is saying otherwise. Torturing them is not the same as killing them on the battlefield or otherwise in combat.

Let's just give em soccer balls and lollipops and every lil ting gonna be alright!

Nobody has suggested this.

If someone kidnapped you're loved one, you caught the kidnapper but your loved one was missing, every last one of you would at the very least use waterboarding to ascertain the location of your loved one.

Luckily none of us lives in a Jack Clancy novel or within an episode of "24", because those are just about the only places your fictional scenraios ever really happen.

But since you won't have to face that situation, you'll instead spew some bs about how you'd turn the meanie over to the police and let them offer milk and cookies to the predator.


No. Nobody has said this either.

Truth be told, I think "this is so farkin brain dead" sums it up nicely and with much less typing.
 
2008-01-31 07:51:15 PM
Friction8r
every last one of you would at the very least use waterboarding to ascertain the location of your loved one.

HURRRRRR
 
2008-01-31 07:53:10 PM
Theaetetus: It assumes wrongly that torture would actually accomplish something towards "saving a loved one from a predator". Frankly, it does nothing whatsoever, other than making you feel tough. It's a waste of time and resources that in an emergency (OMG! A Ticking Timebomb!) could be better used elsewhere.

Let's also ignore the fact that torture tends to prove a lot of false information as well. If the person tortured is really innocent (I know, you Republicans, there is no such thing as an innocent person) how are they supposed to get out if not by lying?
 
2008-01-31 07:53:53 PM
The Sponge We are....and always will be...

As long as we have a strong military to protect us and to ensure that our rights are preserved. Sorry, idealogues, but there is no right without might. It would be nice to watch you spew your inalienable rights to some foreign general on U.S. soil who has just taken your home from you to use as his headquarters. But you could always call upon your like-minder naive Farkers to rally to your defense.
 
2008-01-31 07:57:31 PM
"I can trace the story of a senior terrorist operative telling how Iraq provided training in these weapons to al Qaeda." - Colin Powell, relating intel that was obtained through torture to the UN.

Betcha Colin wishes that the USA had never had that guy tortured. General Powell is currently residing in the "Where are they now?" file.....
 
2008-01-31 08:00:11 PM
Friction8r: Meh...I've already resolved this issue. Does waterboarding permanently and physically maim a person? No. Might it perchance emotionally scar a person - yes. Is torture defined as physically or mentally scarring a person? If both - then who defines the word torture, a dictionary? The U.N.? None of us would want to be waterboarded. How many of us would use it to try and save a loved one from a predator? In the micro - I bet we would ALL use it - in the macro, we may hold a commendably higher ideal where it should not be used cuz we're neither the victim nor the predator.

There are lot's of things that I would do in that case that are wrong. I would kill to save that loved one, that doesn't make it right. If I did it, I would expect to face the consequences.

Our government is not an individual, and shouldn't be able to make the decision to do something wrong for the right reasons. The danger is that they might decide to do it to anyone, including you.

What happens when they waterboard someone to get information that he didn't have? Are the guys that do this crap always right? If so, we should just fire our judiciary and bring these guys home, they are way too valuable to be in a war zone.

Fight terrorism, sure, within limits. Give up our freedoms or values or integrity to stop terrorism? No way. You can't stop terrorism anyway, even if you kill every member of AQ, some other group is going to spring up somewhwere.

The price of freedom is danger and if you can't accept that you are a coward.
 
2008-01-31 08:00:12 PM
Friction8r: But since you won't have to face that situation, you'll instead spew some bs about how you'd turn the meanie over to the police and let them offer milk and cookies to the predator.

The ironic part of your statement is that the "milk & cookies" approach is objectively more effective than torture.
 
2008-01-31 08:04:09 PM
The_Sponge: TheCid:

Here's the kicker, though. We're supposed to be better than they are.


We arewere....and always will be again.


FIFY
 
2008-01-31 08:04:20 PM
Friction8r: As long as we have a strong military to protect us and to ensure that our rights are preserved.

Again. Nobody has suggested otherwise. Strong as they may be, however, they don't use mustard gas on the battlefield, they don't cut off ears as trophies, they don't mutilate the bodies of their enemies, they don't rape their enemies' women, they don't round up prisoners and execute them in a ditch. There's all kinds of attrocities which the very strong US armed forces just don't do. That they don't do these things (and that they prosecute their troops when/if they do) makes the US military a STRONGER force, because a million undisciplined retards are about the same worth as 10 thousand highly disciplined soldiers.


It would be nice to watch you spew your inalienable rights to some foreign general on U.S. soil who has just taken your home from you to use as his headquarters.

AGAIN you are discussing battlefields and not secret prisons. Are you unable to stay on topic or do you think that nobody notices that you're not talking about torture? How would waterboarding or torture even enter into this moronic scenario of a foreign general invading my home?
 
2008-01-31 08:06:29 PM
Serious question:

If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?
 
2008-01-31 08:07:57 PM
I rest easy knowing that ultimately our military will conduct its missions with very minimal input from, or regard for, armchair tofu-eating generals who vent their outrage and idealism while possessing absolutely no knowledge of battlefield strategies, operations and tactics. You want waterboarding to be illegal? Fine - then I'm certain like many other tactics, it can be conducted without your knowledge. You feel entitled to know all that goes on in a war? Great - go and fight it. Otherwise, you'll get limited information, and you'll LIKE IT!
 
2008-01-31 08:08:21 PM
The_Sponge: Serious question:

If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?


No.
 
2008-01-31 08:09:11 PM
Friction8r: I rest easy knowing that ultimately our military will conduct its missions with very minimal input from, or regard for, armchair tofu-eating generals who vent their outrage and idealism while possessing absolutely no knowledge of battlefield strategies, operations and tactics. You want waterboarding to be illegal? Fine - then I'm certain like many other tactics, it can be conducted without your knowledge. You feel entitled to know all that goes on in a war? Great - go and fight it. Otherwise, you'll get limited information, and you'll LIKE IT!

pussy
 
2008-01-31 08:09:45 PM
jcooli09: The_Sponge: Serious question:

If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?

No.



Farking shiat....did you even watch the news that day?

/I vote yes.
 
2008-01-31 08:10:10 PM
The_Sponge: jcooli09: The_Sponge: Serious question:

If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?

No.


Farking shiat....did you even watch the news that day?

/I vote yes.


coward
 
2008-01-31 08:11:14 PM
jcooli09: The_Sponge: jcooli09: The_Sponge: Serious question:

If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?

No.


Farking shiat....did you even watch the news that day?

/I vote yes.

coward



Oooooh....good one.
 
2008-01-31 08:11:20 PM
Friction8r: I rest easy knowing that ultimately our military will conduct its missions with very minimal input from, or regard for, armchair tofu-eating generals who vent their outrage and idealism while possessing absolutely no knowledge of battlefield strategies, operations and tactics. You want waterboarding to be illegal? Fine - then I'm certain like many other tactics, it can be conducted without your knowledge. You feel entitled to know all that goes on in a war? Great - go and fight it. Otherwise, you'll get limited information, and you'll LIKE IT!

shhhhh......let's hide behind this shrub while we watch the north american whacko bird going through its mating ritual. it starts by forming an argument against a perceived foe but when the other party calls back it doesn't respond choosing instead to go into a fit of spittle and squawk and flying feathers. a most rare and beautiful sight!

*shoots it with the tranquilizer gun.

/sponsored by Mutual of Omaha
 
2008-01-31 08:13:30 PM
The_Sponge
If water-boarding could have led to the prevention of 9/11, would you have supported it in that case?

If.

If they had listened to intelligence reports in the first place, they could have prevented it without the use of waterboarding.

What terrorist attacks has waterboarding prevented, anyway?
 
2008-01-31 08:18:49 PM
Bill Wicke's Friend How would waterboarding or torture even enter into this

Interesting that you would delineate between the two...perhaps because waterboarding is NOT torture? When someone presents case evidence that waterboarding HAS killed people, or physically scarred them beyond repair, then I may change my view on waterboarding. Regardless, I won't change my view that there are many Americans (and Farkers) who simply have no appreciation for the sacrifices our military has made for generations to protect a great civilization marred with precious little snowflakes who need a serious comeuppance.
 
2008-01-31 08:21:46 PM
Friction8r: Bill Wicke's Friend How would waterboarding or torture even enter into this

Interesting that you would delineate between the two...perhaps because waterboarding is NOT torture? When someone presents case evidence that waterboarding HAS killed people, or physically scarred them beyond repair, then I may change my view on waterboarding. Regardless, I won't change my view that there are many Americans (and Farkers) who simply have no appreciation for the sacrifices our military has made for generations to protect a great civilization marred with precious little snowflakes who need a serious comeuppance.



I'm a vet. I know right from wrong. How about you?
 
2008-01-31 08:22:56 PM
Friction8r: Interesting that you would delineate between the two...perhaps because waterboarding is NOT torture?

No. I'll rephrase if you like.

"How would waterboarding (or any kind of torture) enter into this conversation?"

(when your argument starts hitting the semantics it's a sure sign you're not winning)

When someone presents case evidence that waterboarding HAS killed people, or physically scarred them beyond repair, then I may change my view on waterboarding.

Here's a picture from Tuol Sleng (S-21) prison painted by one of the six surviving inmates.

img155.imageshack.us

You don't mind keeping that kind of company? You think the guy with the watercan is a patriot, saving his country? I pity you.
 
2008-01-31 08:23:26 PM
Friction8r: Bill Wicke's Friend How would waterboarding or torture even enter into this

Interesting that you would delineate between the two...perhaps because waterboarding is NOT torture? When someone presents case evidence that waterboarding HAS killed people, or physically scarred them beyond repair, then I may change my view on waterboarding. Regardless, I won't change my view that there are many Americans (and Farkers) who simply have no appreciation for the sacrifices our military has made for generations to protect a great civilization marred with precious little snowflakes who need a serious comeuppance.


And for the record, those men died for your freedom, and for the great ideal that America is a better place run a better way. They defended that with their lives, and you are pissing on their graves.
 
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