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(Discovery)   Evidence of Jesus' existence found   ( divider line
    More: Unlikely  
•       •       •

151 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Oct 2002 at 2:50 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

567 Comments     (+0 »)

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2002-10-21 04:32:32 PM  
screw you and your "unlikely" tag.
2002-10-21 04:32:32 PM  
if jesus is god, he must have a great sense of humor, the greatest most awesome sense of humor ever, and he must be supremely self-confident and sure of himself. he can take people joking about him or deriding him. he's not insecure about much. his followers should try to be more like him. moreso for those asshat muslims who biatch about falwell and declare a jihad anytime someone looks crosseyed at mohammed.
2002-10-21 04:33:39 PM  
What big bang?
2002-10-21 04:33:39 PM  

Luke 1.1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us

according to the bible I have here...and I am an agnostic, by the way...
Luke 1:1 says "believed to be among us" not "fulfilled".

Translation of archaeic text is very subjective, no?

Facts confirmed by the fullest evidence-ôuiðåðëcñiöiñciåiuiðñãiôui. Every thing that had been done or said by Jesus Christ was so public, so plain, and so accredited by thousands of witnesses, who could have had no interest in supporting an imposture, as to carry the fullest conviction, to the hearts of those who heard and saw him, of the divinity of his doctrine, and the truth of his miracles.

The King James was translated 400 years ago. The English language had changed since then. Fortunately there are many modern translations.


I never doubted the existence of Jesus the man, I just don't believe he had any religious significance. One hell of a con artist, he makes PT Barnum pale by comparison.

How do you figure he pulled off that resurrection from the dead trick?

I Corinthians 15:3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; 7 then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles;
2002-10-21 04:34:29 PM  
I'm not what you would call an athiest, but I do not believe in any of the organized religons. From my limited (forced) involvement in any religon I came to a conclusion, organized religon's god is m-o-n-e-y. Give money, and god will reward you. Baaah!, what a load of sh#%. More like give money so we can build expensive tributes to an entity that no-one has ever seen. Every religion has these silly demi gods too, even though all say there is only one god and those that honor other gods will be damned. Such as Allah, Jehova, The Pope (and his saints), David, and so on. Now I know the reply from all of you is that these are not gods, but by reply would be is then why do you honor them like they are gods? Personally I am my own temple of whatever god may exsist. Screw these organized religions that just want your money, honor thyself and you shall be rewarded.
2002-10-21 04:34:57 PM  

Matthew 13:55 (NIV)

"Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? "

There. Jesus had four brothers. It's in the Bible.

Jesus had more than one brother. See Matt 12:46, Mark 3:31, Luke 8:19, and especially John 2:12. Also John 7:3 and Acts 1:14. All four gospels make mention of him having brothers, and John 2:12 even distinguishes them from his disciples (in case you thought they were using the term "brother" differently there).

As a Christian, this entire thread makes me sick. I am not a very vocal Christian, I'm not a "bible thumper," and I don't press my beliefs on anyone, nor do I trash other beliefs, including athiesm. People have a right to their beliefs. I visit Fark regularly, I find most of it hilarious....but this thread is ridiculus, show some respect.

'Its in th bible...'

So what? The farsical story of genesis is in the bible to.

If chapter 1 is full of SHIAT, what makes the rest of the pulp non-fiction?

Sure, Jesus probably existed, so what? The only thing we know for sure are Gods natural laws, ie. Laws of physics, etc. God did not make humans with asexual reproductive systems, God spent billions of years allowing the soup to evolve, just look up in the sky at night, you can't explain reality away here. Face it the bible is nothing more than mythology, just like the greeks load of crap. Anyone seriously believe in Zeus around here? Why not? Because it's STUPID!!!

The evil in men has a name...RELIGION!

May God save us by exposing this evil to the masses who can't reason with the noodle he gave them!...Amen!
2002-10-21 04:35:02 PM  
Attention Farkers lacking faith, but interested in it:

I am starting a new religion, the First Church of James, Jesus' Brother.

The fundamental tenet is that you should more or less be kind to everyone, except your stupid BROTHER who everyone thinks is a GOD and who your STUPID MOTHER thinks is A STUPID DEITY and TREATS HIM LIKE HE'S A STUPID GOD.
2002-10-21 04:37:25 PM  
Very good topic, and interesting to see how may out there are smug in their nervous self-approving belief that they are the masters of the universe. If you're right, well have a good eternal sleep. But if you're wrong, well.... I'm very sorry.
2002-10-21 04:38:10 PM  
Hi I'm James, Gods nephew...can I have a job?
2002-10-21 04:38:12 PM  
Father_Jack: How about Mithraism (which New Testament christianity was almost wholly lifted from)? Zeuss? Rah? Odin? Did they all actually exist as well? The religion's existence is totally irrelevant to the debate over Jesus' existence.

Well, i think its safe to say that the gods which arose as explanations for weather or harvests or whatever were the stuff of legend, and so odin, ra, zeuss etc were never claimed to've existed. Early man tried to explain things that he couldnt explain, like weather, fertility, plagues etc and assigned gods to these things as explanations for lack of factual knowledge, and as he advanced, the attributes of his gods became more particular and the method of worship became more complicated accordingly. So, well, i think those gods were the cultural manifestations of myth, and noone tried to prove they were living people.

This isnt the same with prophets, who were said to be men.

As to mithraism, i didnt know much about that till you brought it up and ive been reading up on it and im quite interested, thank you for that! It does explain alot of the origins of christian ritual. Whether one could argue its conclusive in disproving christ's existence is another matter though.

Thanks nonetheless!
2002-10-21 04:38:18 PM  
I feel the same for the religious as I do for those 65 yr old retards who STILL think Santa is coming every christmas, even though their parents have been dead for years and the only thing they wake up to on Christmas morning is untouched cookies, warm milk and no presents.

You know you won't change their minds, they are obviously happy in their delusions and frankly, if it makes them easier to be around for the rest of the year (outside of that week or two before Christmas when that's all that they will talk about) more power to them.

Now, if those other 65 yr old retards would quit making so many stupid laws based around their delusional beliefs, everyone would be much happier.
2002-10-21 04:39:01 PM  
Arkingfass: Sign me up. I'm not giving any money though.
2002-10-21 04:41:58 PM  

Read _The Inflationary Universe_ to get the latest theory on non-God related universe creation.
2002-10-21 04:43:06 PM  
My favorite piece of bathroom stall graffiti:

someone had written "Jesus Saves" in giant black letters across a wall covered with an entire litany of typical bathroom graffiti (gay sex solicitations, stupid jokes, etc.)

underneath this, someone wrote, "Moses rebounds...SCORES!!!"

(I thought it was pretty funny)
2002-10-21 04:45:13 PM  
Go here

And listen to the last one, the splendor of the lord.
2002-10-21 04:46:44 PM  
Every thing that had been done or said by Jesus Christ was so public, so plain, and so accredited by thousands of witnesses, who could have had no interest in supporting an imposture, as to carry the fullest conviction, to the hearts of those who heard and saw him, of the divinity of his doctrine, and the truth of his miracles.

I've got to call BS on this one...
2002-10-21 04:46:49 PM  
I guess that thing about the first-born kid in the family being an overachiever finally has some scientific proof...

Poor Jimmy Christ, who the fark could live up to that?
2002-10-21 04:46:49 PM  

While your post is humerous I thought I'd mention James(Yakob) was rather instrumental in the spreading of his brother's gospel for the early church. He authored the book of James (which Martin Luther didn't want in the cannon, accusing it of being a book of works and criticsing James as being one of the Judiaziers, a group of messianic Jews who demanded adherence to the mosaic law, whom Paul rebuked in his epistles).

Some biblical scholars also suggest that he (James) became a Christian after his brother's death, and some even suggest he probably did exhibit the exact kind of bitterness you parody in your post prior to his conversion.

Of course it's all speculative, and knowing it will only get you a cup of coffe when presented to the guy at McDonalds along with a dollar and change.
2002-10-21 04:47:52 PM  
Bible-reading farkers,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the immaculate conception refer to Mary's conception? It's my understanding that since she was born without the awful sin of sex she was free from sin and able to bear the Savior. She did fark Joseph to produce Jesus. Why would they marry otherwise?
2002-10-21 04:48:51 PM  
Does any Christian actually need proof to believe? Yeah, sure, I believe there is incontrovertible evidence in the complexity of nature itself for us to see God's hand in creation, but I don't need all that. Christianity is a religion of faith. If we're wrong, we're wrong. Why do people waste time trying to prove God exists with logical methods? If somebody doesn't believe in God, do we honestly think we're going to prove God to him by material things? God left plenty of room for skeptics and doubters, on purpose. And heck, even during the reign of Christ on earth, some people won't accept Him then.
If you don't believe, you don't believe. Your loss. :-)
2002-10-21 04:50:19 PM  
Athena: Woohoo, Wanda - shoulda guessed you're a pagan too, girlfriend, 'cause you're so joyfully lusty! Lots of us around these fark parts, I think.

"Joyfully lusty" LOL. I like that, and it pretty well describes me. Bass may now refer to me as a lusty wench! I didn't know there were any other pagan Farkers, though.

Hope you have a blessed festival of Samhain.
2002-10-21 04:50:21 PM  
So let me get this straight... Christians base their religion off of Judaism, and in the OT, there isnt ONE THING about him. The Torah doesnt mention him, because obviously he either didnt exist, or wasnt someone important. But, Christians steal their religion and proclaim this all knowing son of god actually lived and Jews just didnt realize he was there? This Christianity thing deserves the UNLIKELY tag on its own
2002-10-21 04:51:29 PM  
James huh...

It would suck to be James! Imagine your mother baggin' on you, "Your brother Jesus can walk on water! I've never seen you try to walk on water... Jesus raised that nice Lazurus man from the dead, all you do is sit on the couch watching 'Charles in Charge' re-runs! Why can't you be more like your brother Jesus? WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO DO SOMETHING WITH YOUR LIFE!!!!"

Fark that, if I were James I'd convert to Budism.
2002-10-21 04:51:29 PM  
Atheists and religious people have a lot in common.. They both claim to know the unknowable.
2002-10-21 04:52:56 PM  
<documented truth>

No accounts of Jesus survive from his lifetime. The earliest extant Gospel (Mark) was written around 70 CE in one of the cults of Jesus. This was before Christianity, in modern recognizable form, had arisen. Tacitus, one of the Roman historians, wrote around 110 mentions a guy called Christ that Pontius Pilate had executed. Josephus and the Talmud both note a guy called Christ.

As far as Jesus having brothers (or sisters), Matthew 13:55-56 is pretty clear on the subject:

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? And are not all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all this?"

Catholics think that this verse is a metaphor, since the whole Virgin Mary thing means that Jesus is her only child. Most Protestants read this to mean that Jesus had siblings. Go figure.

</documented truth>
2002-10-21 04:56:25 PM  
2002-10-21 04:57:57 PM  

I'm not normally a religious man, but if you're up there, save me, Superman!

2002-10-21 04:58:08 PM  
WickedWanda: ...not to mention that you're a lusty wench....

2002-10-21 04:58:41 PM  
Next up on the Travel Channel................
Take a ride on Noahs Arc

p.s. Wasn't that box in an Indiana Jones movie ?

/duck and cover
2002-10-21 05:01:59 PM  
I'm sure you can find something in the bible to either support or refute any position on any topic.

It's the best book for it's ability to adapt to the situation.

So maybe Jesus was an only child, or maybe he had a brother.

You decide.
2002-10-21 05:05:28 PM  
Big Al

Actually both modern Judiests and Christians point to the same passages in "O.T." scripture to back up claims of messianic prophessy.

The two biggest are the third chapter of genesis called the proto evangel in which HaShem curses the serpent and exhalts the seed of woman as the source of crushing the serpents head under His heel. And Isaiah the prophets explicit prophesy of a coming savior who will be called emanuel.

So in answer to your querry there is hebraic text to back up the promise of the messiah. The difference between Christianity and Judaism on this point then is the Christian and Messianic Jew alike claim fulfilment of said promise, while the modern Jew still awaits the fulfiment of the messiah.
2002-10-21 05:06:53 PM  
It's a lot harder to prove that something does not exist as opposed to proving that something does exist. Therefore, the boogeyman exists. The Easter bunny exists. Santa exists. Scuzzlebutt exists. Don't forget life on other planets.

/even more flame bait
2002-10-21 05:06:57 PM  
In Aramaic, 'religion' is translated to be...

'Evil vessel by which the ignorant masses may be controlled'
2002-10-21 05:07:53 PM  
Sorry, Orifice, that is not entirely accurate data in regards to Josephus. See earlier notes in regards to fraudulent entries in Josephus' texts.

I would also like to make a point that will again be lost, but it is related to the (somewhat inaccurate) claim made above that there were no words for family members in Aramaic, this is incorrect.

What is the problem is that those words had SEVERAL different uses and meanings interpreted by context, and the language had no written vowels. Hence things like the vague aramaic term meaning "young girl" got translated into the literal and specific latin for "virgin" -- and then the trouble got going apace.

So there WERE words for 'brother' and sister, obviously, since the bible deals with family members, tribes and their genealogy almost to exclusion of all the other crazy crap, clearly they had the vocabulary for such a simple term. But the word 'brother' could be used to denote many different kinds of relationships, including 'brethren'.
2002-10-21 05:08:45 PM  
[image from too old to be available]

Mentions Jesus' brother huh? Catholicism surrenders!

2002-10-21 05:09:14 PM  
Harrison Ford In:

Readers of the Lost Osuary
2002-10-21 05:09:30 PM  
Atheists and religious people have a lot in common.. They both claim to know the unknowable.

I don't think you'll find too many atheists that claim to know there are no gods. I think most reasonable atheists, i.e. the ones that aren't the reverse image of religious fundamentalists just think that religions are so improbable and lacking in proof as to be unbelievable.
2002-10-21 05:11:43 PM  
Hi everybody.

I don't think most reasonable people doubt that Jesus existed, ergo I don't understand the unlikely tag.

To those who read the smug christian haters with sadness, most will grow out of it after their sophomore year, or they will remain bitter liberals for life.
2002-10-21 05:12:12 PM  

i know that. Jews believe a savior will appear, but think Jesus is fake. How can Christians base their religion off jews, say Jesus was Jewish, and worship something, when the people they base it off of deny he ever existed?
2002-10-21 05:14:31 PM  
Nlamartina: The New Testament was written in Greek, which has specific terms for specific relationships. So when it refers to His brothers and sisters, it meant just that--brothers and sisters.
2002-10-21 05:16:35 PM  
10-21-02 03:35:13 PM Bevets:
We already have abundant evidence.

I'm glad I'll never be tried in the court of Bevets, wherein hearsay is considered "abundant evidence."
2002-10-21 05:17:36 PM  
Guy Inagorillasuit:
I don't know that BS is a warranted call here. Jesus as a teacher and philosopher did after all inspire a follwing that is unmatched in the modern world, whatever your beliefs are concerning any divinity issues.

Despite the plethora of historical data, not a single written word has been found that is attributed to Jesus himself. He didn't do his own writing. He had others do it for him. So although I fully respect your faith and personal peace, I must diverge to the road of the sceptic. A peaceful difference of opinion.
2002-10-21 05:23:09 PM  
I consider the Bible a better evidence for his existence... But I guess some people have to see Troy to believe it.
2002-10-21 05:23:11 PM  
Am I the only one seeing the obvious? The only thing this possibley points to, is the James existed. After all, it was his body in the box.

As for the virgin birth, well if God can spritually knock a girl up, how powerful a God is he?

Now faith is not saying Jesus lived, but in believing three days after dying on a cross he rose, fulfilling every prophecy about him written in the Old Testament, proven to be written long before the New.

Lumpy man you are deep. You lost me but I think you made a good point. The Bible does tend to prove itself.
2002-10-21 05:23:11 PM  
How do you figure he pulled off that resurrection from the dead trick?

He didn't. Next question.

We're talking about historical evidence for Jesus of Nazarath, not a poorly translated book of myths. I can see how you'd be easily confused.
2002-10-21 05:25:44 PM  
Don't you hate when people dont' read ANY OTHER posts, then they post the same comment. So you have like 280 posts, and about 3 points.
2002-10-21 05:28:55 PM  
Big Al

Sure I hear where you are coming from. But the early church consisted entirely of Jews. Paul himself was an anti-Christian Jew who converted. There was substantial debate in the early church about what to do with gentile believers in fact.

The problem is that modern Christianity was corrupted by "replacement theology" a kind of hijacked Christianity, which more or less believes along the lines of what you are taking issue with.

There is no legitimate biblical evidence for replacement theology though. Rather, replacement theology is merely an attempt to legitimize anti-semetic beliefs in those who are more Christian in name than in practice.
2002-10-21 05:32:45 PM  

I never said Josephus was entirely reliable. I only said he wrote it down at some point. Since there exists other contemporary evidence that corroborates him, he is believable on this point. It would be silly, though, to take him at his word on everything.
2002-10-21 05:32:55 PM  
Bad use of "Unlikely" tag; should have been "Obvious" tag.
2002-10-21 05:33:24 PM  
I'm calling BS on "accredited by thousands of witnesses, who could have had no interest in supporting an imposture, as to carry the fullest conviction, to the hearts of those who heard and saw him, of the divinity of his doctrine, and the truth of his miracles."
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