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(Discovery)   Evidence of Jesus' existence found   (dsc.discovery.com) divider line 567
    More: Unlikely  
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142 clicks; posted to Main » on 21 Oct 2002 at 2:50 PM (11 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2002-10-21 03:58:38 PM
10-21-02 03:01:18 PM Padraig:
Well, I don't know for you, but this is the first time ever I heard the mention of Jesus' brother, apart from "Dogma", of course. And I had religious instruction until I was 13.

Jesus had more than one brother. See Matt 12:46, Mark 3:31, Luke 8:19, and especially John 2:12. Also John 7:3 and Acts 1:14. All four gospels make mention of him having brothers, and John 2:12 even distinguishes them from his disciples (in case you thought they were using the term "brother" differently there).
 
2002-10-21 03:59:07 PM
What?

No Carlin?

Ok, so it's about God. Off topic a little, I know, but it's so good.

"Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man -- living in the sky -- who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshiat story. Holy shiat!"

/a Texan agnostic
 
2002-10-21 03:59:14 PM
Karlandtanya, You rule supreme.
 
2002-10-21 04:01:01 PM
The issue of Miriam's (never heard of a jewish girl named mary) virginity has been diluted by catholocism. At the risk of offending catholic farkers let me expound that it takes a great deal of inventive interpretation of scripture to overlook the AMPLE number of biblical references to Yeshua's brothers and sisters.

From a purely biblical viewpoint (employing itnerpretion in the context of evaluating texts according to the convetions of the time period in which they were written) it is quite clear that -after- the immaculate birth of Yeshua haMashiach more children were born to Yoseph and Miriam, among them Yacob (called James in the greek septugent and subsequently all English translations for some strange reason).
 
2002-10-21 04:02:11 PM
Bass, there was a passage in the works of Josephus mentioning Jesus of Nazareth but it was a forgery slapped in there by later on Christian plaigerists. Josephus was an orthodox conservative Jew and in this one tiny paragraph where he's talking about the execution of James, he breaks off and says "Oh yeah, about this time there was a man named Jesus of Nazareth who was the Messiah and performed many miracles according to the scriptures and rose from the dead, but anyways, back to James' execution." Kinda outta place for an orthodox Jew to be calling anyone a Messiah and only mention them fleetingly in one paragraph of their entire works.

Even Biblical historians admit that is a fake.
 
2002-10-21 04:03:15 PM
Bb:

looks like the wrong place for chill pills. Whoosh.
I'm heading for the forest. Cheers
 
Eli
2002-10-21 04:03:36 PM
Scoop84: No, it couldn't. Not even close.
 
2002-10-21 04:04:09 PM
So there was no word for cousin, in-law, niece, etc? Then they must have been the true ancestors of African-Americans. Hence we are all brothers and sisters. Amen!
 
2002-10-21 04:04:47 PM
As a Christian, this entire thread makes me sick. I am not a very vocal Christian, I'm not a "bible thumper," and I don't press my beliefs on anyone, nor do I trash other beliefs, including athiesm. People have a right to their beliefs. I visit Fark regularly, I find most of it hilarious....but this thread is ridiculus, show some respect.
 
2002-10-21 04:04:47 PM
There's so many Gods to choose from which one comes with medical benefits?
 
2002-10-21 04:04:49 PM
Jesus Schmeezus. I want to know more about this Jimmy Christ character.
 
2002-10-21 04:04:50 PM
Itchyredness

"Dude, you are going to Hell!"
 
2002-10-21 04:06:44 PM
Yeah NorthVentrical, unfortunately I'm bored outta my skull and I'm a total perfectionist when it comes to correcting people. Course that's only when I'm on adderall anyways. Sorry. Damn ADD medication!
 
2002-10-21 04:06:44 PM
Remember everybody, Jesus loves you. And if you disagree, he will throw you into a pit of fire where you will be tormented until the end of time.
 
2002-10-21 04:07:11 PM
Ieshua Nazarene Rex Iudeanorum

Jesus was the crazy guy mumbling along Yonge St.? (I can hear the Toronto farkers now - "which crazy guy mumbling? There's about a hundred of 'em...")
 
2002-10-21 04:08:43 PM
Sheesh.. jumpin in this late, I'm sure I'm doomed to be ignored.. but to continue the argument...

There wouldn't be many historical documents about Jesus during his lifetime. The guy was only out preaching for about 4 years... when he was 30ish - 34ish. That's a SHORT span of time back then.

He was non-violent, most historians, while maybe they heard of this Jesus guy, didn't care. There were a lot more eventful things going on in the world. Some guy going around talking to people doesn't generate "history".

It took years... and years... and years for Jesus' impact to really come to bear... through his followers who continued to grow in numbers. Many historians wouldn't have picked the movement up until it became a political or social force, something would have taken a few decades (at least) to accomplish.

It is also a far more complex idea to support that Christianity is purely fabricated. Do you propose that the whole religion was invented by the modern church, blown out of proportion just to wrestle power from the Jews? This is a plan that would have taken centuries to come to fruition, and not likely a course that power-mongers would seek to follow.

It is a much simpler conclusion to assume that he DID exist, and as his # of followers grew, the power-mongers moved in to a budding prospect, set up shop, and began using Christianity to their own ends... so after centuries you get your happy corrupt clergy running the show.

Did those corrupt clergy "massage" history? Undoubtably... but they took an existing basis and added and removed at their discretion what would increase their power. So of course you're going to find holes in the story...

When you come down to it, Jesus was a small figure in history, few people really knew about him, and (with the exception of those in his immediate vicinity) never did anything remarkable.

Doesn't really make for a hero character... so the church had to beef him up some.

Personally, I'm not a Christian. It's just I think that anyone who claims that Jesus didn't exist and the whole thing is just one huge conspiracy comes off sounding... well... a little bit like a conspiracy theorist.

Not to say that you don't have some good sounding points... but you really come across like one of the guys you see on TV talking about how they were abducted by aliens, or how you saw the yeti while you were back-packing... or even some of these nut-bags that try to preach about how the jewish holocaust never happened in WW2. Riiiiiight.
 
2002-10-21 04:09:18 PM
It's refreshing to know so many farkers are also freethinkers. I knew there was intelligence somewhere in the world...surprising to find it on fark.com though. :P
 
2002-10-21 04:11:07 PM
Everytime you masturbate, god kills a savior.

(I consider my ticket to hell already punched)
 
Eli
2002-10-21 04:11:07 PM
Father_Jack: How about Mithraism (which New Testament christianity was almost wholly lifted from)? Zeuss? Rah? Odin? Did they all actually exist as well? The religion's existence is totally irrelevant to the debate over Jesus' existence.

The rest of what you say is right on, I just don't think we have any real evidence about Jesus and to claim that "everybody knows he existed" is foolhardy. People "know" this factoid because of received wisdom, not because of any actual evidence.
 
2002-10-21 04:11:41 PM
Bonzy20:

You think it's bad being a Christian around Fark, imagine being a Muslim around here whenever an Islam thread comes up.
 
2002-10-21 04:12:09 PM
Do I have to put a big "sarcasm" tag at the bottom of everything I submit? I mean, EVERYONE on here is sarcastic, and EVERYONE understands it, but with me, no, somebody doesn't get it, they think I'm serious. EVERY FARKER ON HERE CAN SAY ANYTHING AND NOT BE MISINTERPRETED, EXCEPT ME. IS IT BECAUSE I'M A WOMAN?!!

/sarcasm/
 
2002-10-21 04:12:30 PM
Oh isn't it nice to read an intelligent (mostly) "flame-war". Couple of simple basic points to throw out/repeat:

I am a Christian.

The "unlikely" tag is stupid. Jesus DID exist, whether or not you believe Him to be the Son of God.

Jesus had a brother named James.

I don't mind what religion (and athiesim [actively NOT believing] is included in my lists of religions) people are.

End of story.
 
2002-10-21 04:14:02 PM
Folks;

you've taken a third rate "science" article and turned into a battleground. If you stepped back and took a long hard look at what is being said to each other, you'd realise that this is a completely fruitless debate, borne in large part of a lack of desire to actually listen to anyone else. Someone says Jesus, and suddenly it's worse than the very worst of the wrestling world. I'm not at all suggesting that anyone shouldn't have their say, but this is quickly degrading into the infantile. Humour and good grace were parts of the scriptures, as any scholar would tell you. Don't let that elude you in your quest to infuse the world with your own brand of what the real answers are. And while you're at it, the world looks a lot brighter when you're not looking at with your eyes examining your colons.

Relax folks...if there's one thing we have in common, it's a general agreement that all in all, it's good to be alive.
 
2002-10-21 04:15:48 PM
Bonzy20 i totally agree. As a fellow Christian, i've never put down any other relegion. In fact i have many muslim friends as well as friends of different relegions. I think if you believe in kindness and compassion which most relegions teach then your doing well in life. I also have atheist friends that respect my beliefs and have never shot mud at it. On this board it just seems like the same people telling us what doesn't exist aren't voicing their opinions on what they believe does. Sorry for some of you, i'm an idiot, i haven't figured out the universe in my 21 years!
 
2002-10-21 04:16:35 PM
jesus is a mexican looking guy. he drives a cream colored van. he went thataway.
 
2002-10-21 04:17:32 PM
Bonzy20: be warned, the level of freethink on Fark can be dangerously high depending if the ozzies and brits are awake and/or drunk and in a yank-hating mood.

but pretty much no religion is immune. isn't that fair, after all? we're treating each as equally silly. golden plates and salamanders equal a briss equals transubstatiation equals reincarnation equals elephant gods.

all silly
 
2002-10-21 04:17:44 PM
Heh, Impaler, aw, we all know Jesus wasn't that kind of a guy.

Its all these damned Christians.

See: Irony.
 
2002-10-21 04:17:55 PM
"Jesus" is the Greek form of the name "Joshua", in case anyone cared.

How many guiys named Joshua d'you think there were in the First Century Middle East?
 
2002-10-21 04:18:10 PM
Shadowin, of all the posts to reply to, you just seriously replied to obvious satire.
 
2002-10-21 04:18:48 PM
New cheap plastic bracelets are now out - WWJDWHDBB

What would Jesus do with his dead brothers bones?
 
2002-10-21 04:19:19 PM
Bass555:
Jesus voted for Nixon (twice)


I have it on good authority he would have voted for LBJ in 1968, had Johnson run.
 
2002-10-21 04:21:03 PM
There was a James. But he did not have a brother named Jesus.
 
2002-10-21 04:21:47 PM
Ventricle, I think we argue because we *enjoy* it. Validity of debate is irrelevant. :)
 
2002-10-21 04:22:13 PM
Cryinoutloud,

What are you saying.....you're not a woman???
 
2002-10-21 04:22:20 PM


Shadowin:
Hmm, you're making an argument based on a book that justifies itself through circular reasoning (The bible is true because it says so). Do you have no logic?

Don't assume that logic provides any philosophical answers.. everything must have an assumption to base a logistical structure on.

If A = B and B = C then A = B. But this presupposes that you understand what A is and how it is seperate from B. You must have language at the very least. Language is based upon the sounds that you associate from birth with certain images. Not exactly a way to build a structure to understand abolutes. Are you familiar with the concepts behind Godel's proof? It deals with mathmatical problems behind proving abstract structures in systems. Basicly, math can only prove something within the limits of itself, it can't be applied beyond its assumed beginings. This problem also appears when anyone trys to use language to prove anything. When you get right down to it, it all depends upon what you feel is "right" and "true" enough, then you just go ahead and use logic based upon that. Clark, as eliquently as possible, has done just that. He (perhaps unwittingly) used circular reasoning to demonstrate that when confronted with proving anything, it all relies on what we feel to be true.

mmm. We are all using these words and phrases we assume to understand. But can anyone define what it means to "exist", to "be" or to "know" without eventually coming back upon the very words being defined? Words are defined by words... that seems be circular reasoning in its most basic form. Anyway.. I suppose the only thing I have to say about logic in language is that it can't prove anything outside of itself, and thats usually up for debate.


Personally, I'm agnostic.. I really don't know. I'm also amused by atheists who claim to "know" that god doesn't exist.... How the hell do you prove that something doesn't exist?
 
2002-10-21 04:23:15 PM
*wipes away a tear*

It's so beautiful when people are open minded....
 
2002-10-21 04:24:32 PM
The UNLIKELY tag was meant to point to the UNLIKELIHOOD of the validity of the find.

Some of you non-believers make some good points. I guess once you have faith it sticks, I believe because I want to believe. Its not blind, but I like having someplace to turn to and someone to blame. It gives me a comfort level.
 
2002-10-21 04:24:59 PM
To my knowledge, there is NO documentation in Ancient Rome relating to Jesus' crucificion. Prove me wrong. I don't think it's there, frankly.

And a further mystery, where are this Jake's bones? Were there bones in there last time you looked in the box? Was anyone here since then? And that door's been locked? Perhaps he took a little walk....
 
2002-10-21 04:25:16 PM
change... "then a=b to a=c"
 
2002-10-21 04:25:25 PM
Bonzy
Why should we show any respect? It's the very respect of a no-see-um Emperor's Clothes Religion that keeps such delusional thinkng alive. The more people see that it's bs and there's no proof, the better. If I had my way, I'd have you all believing in a Peanut Butter Sandwich as the Trinity with no backsass. I wouldn't even attempt to furnish proof, just force.

God forbid, we're breaking out of our eggshells by DARING to call it bs!
 
2002-10-21 04:26:23 PM
Korz...

I won't argue that, at least in this case...cheers.
 
2002-10-21 04:26:24 PM
Do I have to put a big "sarcasm" tag at the bottom of everything I submit?

Yes, if you don't want someone to think that you are serious. No matter how obvious it seems that you are being sarcastic, someone will think you are serious. Of course I never use a sarcastic tag, almost hoping someone will take me seriously. Then I make fun of them.
 
2002-10-21 04:27:23 PM
Your all a bunch of free thinkin' commies!
 
2002-10-21 04:28:21 PM
I don't know what's up with the anti-religious bigotry around here. So I believe in God. I don't go around telling others to believe what I do. I don't tell anyone that their non-beliefs are a crock or stupid. Steven Hawkings believes that the possibility of a God outweighs the possibility of there not being a God, BECAUSE HOW THE HELL ELSE DID THE BIG BANG HAPPEN!!!???
 
2002-10-21 04:29:09 PM
OK, I'm going to ignite a completely different flamewar, because... well, because I can. Assuming anyone is still reading.

I've seen a half-dozen comparisons of Jesus to David Koresh on the grounds of both being the Messiah, and whatnot. But I see this as faulty. No one believes Koresh is anything more than ashes now, his cult is dissipated, and in two thousand years the name will mean nothing.

I actually suspect that Jesus, the historical figure, was much more like Martin Luther King, Jr, the historical figure.

Dr. King was a very good man with a vision and a dream, and some wacky ideas about the way the world should work. Of course, quite a few people agreed with those wacky ideas and became his followers. And his followers grew in number until someone decided the ideas were just a bit too wacky, and maybe they could destroy the following if they offed the leader.

Of course, it didn't work in Jesus' case, and it didn't work in Dr. King's either. In both cases, the followers continued doing what they were doing, galvanized and perhaps even strengthened by the creation of a martyr.

And let's face it, it's a slippery slope from visionary and martyr to prophet, and from prophet to messiah. Already, I see people treating Dr. King as a prophet, and it's only been forty years. I suspect, however, that most people aren't looking for a new messiah and that Dr. King will never be treated as one by his followers.

Some of the followers of each man became radicals, which is not surprising. And in a time where paper was in short supply, and audio and video recording were a good 1850 years in the future, people could spread, by word of mouth, the idea that the messiah had come and gone, and you better believe or there would be hell to pay. Stories of miracles can be concocted long after the fact.

Nowadays, those radical followers can be seen defending affirmative action "By Any Means Necessary" as they do here at the U of Michigan. But people are at least slightly less gullible, and aren't going to believe that Dr. King was the messiah. Most of the people, at least. But I bet we'll still remember who he is in two thousand years.

Jesus was probably a really great guy with some really impressive thoughts on how people and government should work, who was killed by people who couldn't stand to think of a world that worked his way, and who was turned into a messiah by the later efforts of his more radical followers.

Flame away.
 
2002-10-21 04:29:12 PM
Lalalala: THats wht i find amusing when talking about the "Miracle that someone survived" Some farking miracle, 3000+ poor dead farks, women and children, and its a farking miracle that some survived? What miracle? Why thank god? hes the one who killed them 3000 dead people. Either there isnt a god, he dosent give a shiat, or hes a real bastard. Thats why i think cithulu is the one true god, cause hes the only one who fits all three of those criteria.
 
2002-10-21 04:30:29 PM
WickedWanda: I see that you're one of those pagan succubuses that seduces men and sucks their souls out leaving them hollow shells and broken spirits, tossed out like some used piece of flesh-trash from which you have derived your pleasure and have no use for anymore


God, I respect that....
 
2002-10-21 04:30:42 PM
NorthVentricle:

yes. thank you.
 
2002-10-21 04:31:20 PM
Chess_the_cat:

so, what if god hates organized religion and the only people who are going to heaven are athiests? Wouldnt you be in for a surprise, eh. religious people are funny. especially when their religion is based off a real one (judaism)
 
2002-10-21 04:31:47 PM
Greekfool: Well, I agree with you! Also, I may have overreacted to some posts.....but many do not appear to be of humor to me, and I tend to be a sarcastice person.
 
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