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(Pravda)   World Oil Exchanges Burning Up   ( divider line
    More: Interesting  
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1108 clicks; posted to Main » on 18 Oct 2002 at 9:27 PM (14 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

165 Comments     (+0 »)
2002-10-18 09:31:40 PM  
You don't say.
2002-10-18 09:32:14 PM  
pretty crappy articles tonight.
2002-10-18 09:32:27 PM  
If man didn't feel the need to stuff oil into every little thing, it wouldn't be so expensive.
2002-10-18 09:33:02 PM  
One can now understand the USA's wish to destroy Hussein's regime in Iraq and to gain unrestricted access to Iraqi oil.

I never thought I'd live to see the day when Pravda is the only media outlet willing to tell the truth about something.
2002-10-18 09:33:27 PM  
What ever happened to the war VS. terror. This "war" has just evolved into a war VS cheap oil.
2002-10-18 09:37:37 PM  
Loverboy586 This "war" has just evolved into a war VS cheap oil.

"That's all the war was EVER about, fat greedy American republican fascist pigs getting their money-grubbing hands on cheap oil for their big gas-guzzling SUVs by killing innocent Iraqui women and babies!!!"
</democrats and basically the rest of the world>
2002-10-18 09:39:32 PM  
nonono, loverboy, this war has never been anything but "war FOR cheap oil"
2002-10-18 09:39:35 PM  

Sorry to burst your bubble, but, ultimately, American Foreign (and Domestic) policy is about money, or as they like to put it "our economic self-interest".
2002-10-18 09:43:32 PM  
MorteDiem: So you're saying that the claims of altruistic motives are merely a transparent scheme to drum up support from an ignorant gullible public? That doesn't sound very likely to me!
2002-10-18 09:44:50 PM  
This is what disgusts me most of all about the buildup to war -- all the cynical flag-waving "we're doing it to prevent another 9/11" BS. What we're actually doing is something quite simple -- beating up the unpopular kid and taking his bike.

Now maybe we really need his bike and yeah, he really is a little weenie, but let's be honest about it. if we're gonna be bullies, we might as well be macho enough to admit it.
2002-10-18 09:45:02 PM  
Not to threadjack, but the police found a white truck with shell casings at a rental agency in Dulles.

The only problem is that all of the links to the major news sites have been submitted. Apparently, they give the new stories the same URL at CNN, Yahoo, Googlenews, etc.

Oh, just means that the story might not show up on Fark for a while :)
2002-10-18 09:45:13 PM  
Blow up all the freaking oil. If something big has to happen, let it happen as soon as possible.

I mean, no.
2002-10-18 09:47:33 PM  
Loverboy586, where do you work? Does your company depend on gas and oil? If not, do your customers?

I think it's time to get over the notion that defending world interests like oil and the American economy is a bad thing. Say what you want about the big bad terrible Americans, but when it comes down to it we are just making a living.

1) Due to geography, we are far more dependent on cars than the rest of the industrialized world.

2) A good part of the "rest of the world" depends on our foreign aid.

If terrorists blow up the American and British oil wells in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, it will cause a global depression. And, at the same time, not many other countries are willing to do anything about it. So, here we are. What would you have us do?

I personally would get some binding agreements with Norway, Russia, Venizualla (I know its spelled wrong), and Mexico, open ANWR, and tell the middle east to fark off. Then I would cut off all aid to the region including Isreal. Europe can go fark themselves as well, because they are depending on us to make sure the Saudi oil keeps flowing. The truth is that we don't need the Middle East oil, and it causes us a lot of problems.

It takes some balls to do what GW is doing, but it would take even more balls to do what I propose.
2002-10-18 09:48:03 PM  
Allow me to clarify. The links were submitted a while ago, before this development. The new article has the same URL as the old articles.
2002-10-18 09:49:32 PM  
Oh come on you morons. If we wanted to get cheap oil we'd open up ANWR or invade Canada, ya tards. Any military action against Iraq would cost more money than our government could ever get from kickbacks from corporations to gobble up Iraqi oil wells. Use your damn common sense.

The first sentence of this article was hilarious.

"Islamic terrorists have reached Saudi Arabia."
2002-10-18 09:54:19 PM  
ChadManMn then why doesn't the government just come out and say. "Ok, yeah we are going to attack Iraq to secure the oil there because if we don't we will be in a whole world of shiat." Why don't we just come out and say it? I mean holy shiat I would be behind something like instead of this stupid bullshiat about "weapons of mass destruction"... I mean if we were really after weapons of mass destruction then why aren't we invading North Korea... we KNOW that they have nukes and the means to deliver them at long ranges.

Is it too much to ask not to have the government blowing smoke up our collective asses?
2002-10-18 09:54:28 PM  
If we wanted to get cheap oil we'd open up ANWR or invade Canada, ya tards.

The oil cos. are on record that opening up ANWR is economically unfeasible. The costs to extract the oil would be far too high for them to make a profit.

Iraq is an ideal target because the oil has been located, wells have been drilled and facilities are in place.

BTW, nice coversation style you got there. I'm betting you're the star of your junior high debate team.
2002-10-18 09:55:54 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey yes, but drilling ANWR or invading Canada would not be popular. Dropping bombs on a bunch of brown people in Iraq though pans out much better in the opinion polls.
2002-10-18 09:57:15 PM  
Tree_of_Woe, oh bullshiat. That must be why they lobbied like farking crazy to open up ANWR.

Pretty much every country on earth that has oil already has oil wells drilled and facilities in place. Think here please, think.

Next thing you know Vietnam was really about Nike sweatshops.
2002-10-18 09:57:52 PM  
It takes some balls to do what GW is doing

No it doesn't. Takes no balls at all. Beat up a nation without a real military and take their oil? Yeah, shades of Churchill.

What would take balls would be for W to tell the people who installed him in teh White House to fark off, and develop fuel cell technology and renewable power resources. Then we can tell Saudi Arabia and Exxon to piss off at the same time.

My breath ain't being held for that one, though.
2002-10-18 09:57:57 PM  
The first sentence of this article was hilarious.

"Islamic terrorists have reached Saudi Arabia."

that definately caught me off gaurd, also he saying things like "It seems that the image of this country as the most respectable and stable Arab country was shaken a lot yesterday."

jesus christ, is this guy retarded or something 15 19ths of the hijackers were saudi arabian, im sure he prolly beleives the whole 9/11 thing was just a zionist conspiracy though.
2002-10-18 09:58:25 PM  
Right Code, because Americans hate brown people. Whenever brown people die me and every American I know personally take time out of our busy schedules of greed and consumerism to laugh at those silly brown people.
2002-10-18 09:58:35 PM  
Loverboy: yeah they are waging war against cheap oil
2002-10-18 09:58:46 PM  

The government cares not for kickbacks, it's the taxpayers money they are spending.

All "they" care about is lining their pockets when they get out of office, or, while they are still incumbent.

Wind, tides, solar.
All free for the picking but corporate interests can't make as much off of them.
2002-10-18 09:59:22 PM  
This sick war is not just about oil, it's also:

1)Geostrategic advantage~ The US Empire has already made its initial move against Afganistan, as brilliantly planned out by Zbignew Brezinski, former Carter Administration Nat Sec Advisor, who described The Plan in great detail in his land-mark book, "The Grand Chessboard". The geostrategic imperative is to flank against China and Russia.

Now that the US Empire is securely in Afganistan, it can easily hold off China from getting the oil themselves, not to mention keep China in check geographically.

2)Oil~ No doubt.

3)The FRN (Federal Reserve Note)~ the financial system is close to the point of collapse, thanks to the Federal Reserve System of F.R.A.U.D. (Federal Reserve Accounting Units of Dollars). The US Empire desperately needs the oil money to stave off the collapse by dramatically lowering the cost floor of bringing that oil into the US Empire's homeland, the land of the greed, home of the slaves. Well over a half a trillion--500 *billion* bucks goes overseas to buy all that oil; to capture some of that money is the aim of the Empire, as it is all tapped out in other ways of making/stealing money.

4)Israel~ They're a **big** problem. Israel has already gone into Iraq and plan on capturing their own oilfields in a double-cross against their dumb sugar daddy. Don't believe it? Search: "Operation Shekhinah" and see for yourselves. Zionism is a **big** problem for us here in America, both the slave persons and the free Sui Juris People. Huge problem. Those Zionist bastards (*not* the Jewish people) own and control America. No joke.
2002-10-18 09:59:57 PM  
We have the technology right now to cut our dependance on oil by more than 50% in the next four years... if we simply placed the investment in the technology. We could take the money that we are putting towards bombing the shiat out of Iraq and put into these technologies and tell the Middle East to go have circle jerk with their camels.

And you know doing that would not risk our soldier's lives, and it wouldn't piss off the muslim extremists. Hey, win-win situation.
2002-10-18 10:00:04 PM  
What were the 2 last countries we bombed the shiat out of? Lesse here, Afghanistan. Brown people? Yup. Serbia, brown people? Serbia was full of brown people, right? Right?
2002-10-18 10:00:07 PM  
As it became known, a conspiracy by Islamic radical terrorists was unveiled in Saudi Arabia yesterday. Oil prices went up right after that piece of news.

"In the experimental control universe, no conspiracy was unveiled. Oil prices still went up."

Islamic terrorists have reached Saudi Arabia

When did they leave?
2002-10-18 10:00:22 PM  
1) prevent WMD
2) Liberate Iraqi people
3) provide catalyst for democracy in mid-east
4) Get cheap, reliable oil
5) money from oil sales goes to developing iraqi infrastructure

.......OH NO
2002-10-18 10:00:49 PM  

Oil Cos. Largely Silent on Alaska

Wed Apr 17, 4:58 PM ET
By H. JOSEF HEBERT, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON (AP) - Despite intense lobbying over oil drilling in an Arctic wildlife refuge, big oil companies largely have kept silent, their attention on exploration elsewhere.

The oil industry long has sought to drill for the billions of barrels of oil beneath the refuge in Alaska's northeastern corner. But drilling supporters complain privately that large oil companies have not pushed aggressively to open the site to development.

An industry insider, speaking on condition of anonymity, acknowledged that for many of the large companies, the refuge is only one place to find oil and that there are many fields around the world where development would come more cheaply and with less political trouble.


Enough thinking for ya?
2002-10-18 10:01:22 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey: Installing a friendly dictator in Iraq would allow the US to control the stability of the Middle East. I assume you don't think the Saudi government is being propped up by the US for any other reason than it being a perceived stabilizing factor?
Stability in the region equals acceptable oil prices, so in the end economic interests are at stake.

And yes, the remarks about Saudi Arabia being "respected" and invaded by terrorists, rather than a breeding ground for them, were hilarious :)
2002-10-18 10:01:52 PM  
hehehe Bbcrackmonkey its a line from George Carlin... "the one thing the US is great is bombing brown people"
2002-10-18 10:02:02 PM  
Tarzan, I think your tinfoil beanie needs refolding.
2002-10-18 10:03:36 PM  
hey, here's another one crackmonkey:

Slick Oil:
What the industry really wants. And it isn't ANWR.

By Natasha Hunter
Web Exclusive: 4.2.02

In a recent New York Times article, oil company execs admit the venture is scientifically uncertain and will be plagued by expensive lawsuits from environmental groups. As Gerald J. Kepes, managing director for exploration and production issues at the Petroleum Finance Company, a Washington consulting firm for oil companies, told the Times in early March, "It's not clear that this is quite the bonanza some have said."

So the main reason Big Oil is panting around the bargaining table may be to snap up the billions in industry tax breaks that always get tossed around when Congress designs energy legislation.
2002-10-18 10:03:38 PM  
And anyway it's not "about oil"

if America wanted cheap oil they could just drop the sanctions you dumbasses
2002-10-18 10:04:01 PM  
OrphanedWombat, if we wanted a friendly dictator in Iraq we would have never made Saddam into our enemy in the first place.
2002-10-18 10:05:10 PM  
Code_Archeologist, I'm with you there, I wish they would all get some balls and just spell it out. It's not like we're a bunch of idiots (well maybe I am, but I think you farkers is smart)
2002-10-18 10:05:48 PM  
5) money from oil sales goes to developing iraqi infrastructure

Un-bloody-likely. How much effort is being put into developing Afghani infrastructure? Anyone know? Somebody cut me down to size/prove me wrong/get me to put my money where my mouth is.
2002-10-18 10:05:50 PM  

I just hate it when members of the Bush family log on here to debate.
2002-10-18 10:06:25 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey~ Ok, it is clear that you have taken the blue pill--care to come up with better facts than I have? What do you have to offer that beats what I have said about it? I'm calling your bluff.

Take the red pill. You won't regret it.
2002-10-18 10:07:49 PM  
And Bondith, how much money and effort are YOU putting towards rebuilding Afganistan? I see Americans there taking care of things and trying to get them to understand democracy, not Brits or Aussies, whichever you are.
2002-10-18 10:08:41 PM  
if we wanted a friendly dictator in Iraq we would have never made Saddam into our enemy in the first place.

We thought we were making him into a friendly dictator in the eighties when we shipped him arms and biological weapons. it was only when he started threatening the oil supplies of the Gulf that he became an evil, evil man.
2002-10-18 10:08:52 PM  
Tree of Woe, I'm going to assume that either you or the author of that article is completely exaggerating or taking miscellaneous quotes out of context, considering that a huge amount of oil drilling already occurs in Alaska (we have a pipeline running from Alaska into the US) and that there is a massively huge amount of oil in ANWR from all accounts. Also, it isn't as if environmentalists have better lawyers than oil companies.
2002-10-18 10:09:20 PM  
Whatever...didn't even read the header...I just want you Farkers to know that "Soylent Green" just started.

"Wednesdays are Soylent Green days"

See you bastards in about 2 hours...

2002-10-18 10:10:15 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey: Saddam made an enemy of the US, not the other way around. Why would the US not want a friendly dictator in place? Doesn't make sense to me... Saddam serves well as a scapegoat and distractor from domestic issues, but there are many others equally well suited for that.
2002-10-18 10:10:52 PM  
Bondith: Afghanistan is a whole different kettle of fish to Iraq. Aghanistan is almost beyond repair and it'll take years to fix it up

Iraq on the other hand actually has Infrastructure, and an easily sellable resources (oil) that can bring in money to help develop the country
2002-10-18 10:11:28 PM  
Canadian, actually, although Dad's Aussie and most of my ancestry is English.

I'm a starving college student. I have no money. Anyway, the point I tried to make had nothing to do with the American People giving money, it was how unlikely it was that the American Government would funnel oil profits back into Iraq.

trying to get them to understand democracy

Does that include giving weapons to warlords?
2002-10-18 10:11:41 PM  
Tree, if he annexed Kuwait, hey, that's more oil for our friendly pet dictator. We could have just censored debate in the UN and kept Saddam on our buddy list with even MORE oil for him to export to us for covering his ass.
2002-10-18 10:11:53 PM  
Again - its always about the liberal idea of fairness
fairness in everything at all times
America should only go to war with countries that are just as powerful as us, look like us,etc - so we can suffer just as many casualties and not look racist.

See? FAIR!!

It was Bill Maher's thesis too - how unsportsman like of us to try and limit American casualties while maximizing the enemy's

Dont you feel good being a liberal?
2002-10-18 10:12:11 PM  
considering that a huge amount of oil drilling already occurs in Alaska

Ever looked on a map? Alaska is a very large place. Yes, drilling for oil where an infrastructure exists is affordable (e.g. Barrow). It's entirelrely another story to drill and build infrastructure in one of the most remote areas on earth. It could be done in the 50's and 60's, but todays costs make it prohibitive.

Sorry if you think the Associated Press is in on some big conspiracy to preserve caribou, but facts is facts. And you're wrong.
2002-10-18 10:12:58 PM  

i can't just image these people in 1944

2002-10-18 10:14:00 PM  
Chad~ "Democracy" is the biggest snake oil ever sold by the US Empire ever! The US Empire has destroyed no less than 12--twelve--"democracies" and replaced the democratically-elected leaders with dick-tators.

"Democracy" is just a smoke shield to give the US Empire excuses to operate with impunity world-wide. The blood of those people who lost their lives to US-installed dick-tators is on your hands, as your (and millions of others, like you, who are otherwise intelligent, productive persons) woeful lack of understanding has enabled the US Empire to become the prime nation-destroyer in the world.

Wake up. Take the red pill.
2002-10-18 10:14:28 PM  
Tarzan, the matrix has me! :-))

OrphanedWombat, Saddam made us his enemy? And it must be so because otherwise it doesn't make sense to you eh? Perhaps you should study the beginnings of the Gulf War if you wish to prove such a claim.
2002-10-18 10:15:13 PM  

I think you are lost
2002-10-18 10:16:12 PM  
Tree, if he annexed Kuwait, hey, that's more oil for our friendly pet dictator. We could have just censored debate in the UN and kept Saddam on our buddy list with even MORE oil for him to export to us for covering his ass.

Sigh. OK, here's Reality 101:

The Emir of Kuwait is a very, very rich man. he's a very, very good friend of the US. He controls lots and lots of oil. He's a very generous, very rich, very powerful and very pro-US man. In short -- he's exactly the kind of guy we go to war to protect.

Saddam's usefulness to us expired once the Iran/Iraq war ended. We no longer needed him.

So, in choosing between the Emir and Saddam, who do you think we'd select?

I'm done with you now. Please try reading a book or something. Thank you.
2002-10-18 10:16:38 PM  
Tree of Woe, the only fact that you have presented is 1 quote from 1 oil analyst. If you wish to fly in the face of everything that has been talked about on the issue then you should present more facts than that.
2002-10-18 10:18:08 PM  
Chrisifa~ "Lost". What? I go to Indymedia all the time. Of what of my points do you think is mistaken?
2002-10-18 10:18:38 PM  
Tree_of_Woe, funny how oil was never mentioned in your above equation. In fact you have proven my point quite nicely, thankyou. The Gulf War was about Iraq attacking our ally and friend.
2002-10-18 10:20:30 PM  

Saddam was set on disrupting the balance of power in the Middle East, and that wouldn't be in the best interest of the US. That makes him an enemy, and it was entirely his choice, not that of the US.
Thus, a friendly beatdown, and the desire for him to be replaced with someone more pliable.
2002-10-18 10:22:41 PM  
Didn't Charlie Sheen kill Sadamm in Hot Shots Part Deux?
2002-10-18 10:23:16 PM  
And if you're curious how oil comes into the equation, when we're protecting a friend and ally, read the previous post on stability and it's effect on oil prices.
2002-10-18 10:23:39 PM  
OrphanedWombat, why would we care about the balance of power in the Mid-East as long as the oil was flowing, which wouldn't have been a problem as long as we were friends with Saddam?

But I was unaware that Saddam was the one who made the decision for the US to attack Iraq. Thanks for that tidbit of knowledge.
2002-10-18 10:24:07 PM  

Kuwait **was** once part of Iraq! It was carved away during the WWII realignment *purposely* by the ba$tard elite as a future site for a future war. NO joke. That's part of their strategy, which is to carve away prime sites that serve very well as flash points for wars to develop. The Kashmirs is another example.

The ba$tard elite is our *real* problem.
2002-10-18 10:24:14 PM  
Tree_of_Woe, funny how oil was never mentioned in your above equation. In fact you have proven my point quite nicely, thankyou. The Gulf War was about Iraq attacking our ally and friend.

This must be like an online "Crank Yankers" or something, right? I mean, you can't actually believe what you're writing?

The entire issue of the gulf war was -- do we want Saddam Hussein in charge of Kuwait's Oil Wells or do we want the Emir?

However, if you think your point has been proven, feel free to indulge your fantasy. I'm sure it's quite lovely in whatever world you inhabit.


....and Peace!
2002-10-18 10:24:42 PM  
CACA!: That was on tv over here the other day. Can't believe I still find myself giggling like a big scaryloooking schoolgirl at that movie.
2002-10-18 10:25:29 PM  
Tarzan, are you from Cali? -Thought so, it all makes sense now.

If you want facts then learn something about economics and human nature. In your tin-foil hat world everyone is a big evil monster, and I can relate because I was once 5 years old, but in the real world people trade for goods, as they have done for countless millenia. No one has to do business with us, and you dont have to work for a big scary corporation. Luckily it is still somewhat possible to support yourself without working for anyone, but it takes a lot of effort to pull that off.

Too bad we dont live in the good ol' days when all you needed was a strong donkey, some seeds, and a shower once per season, eh?
2002-10-18 10:25:50 PM  
The only instability that Saddam caused was his invasion of Kuwait. Our invasion of Iraq and the Iran/Iraq war as well as the Israeli conflict have all been FAR larger sources of instability in the Middle East.
2002-10-18 10:26:14 PM  
Yeah right the war against terrorism has nothing to do with:
the Two attacks on the World Trade Center
the attack on the USS Cole
Beirut Embassy Bombing
The bombing of Marine Barracks in Beirut
The bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania
Etc, etc, etc.

It's only about the oil, yeah keep telling yourselves that. (Sarcasm)

...and as for North Korea we may in the end have to go to war with them as well, but we currently have a large portion of our forces in the middle east, and that is where the US militaries attention is focused at this time, and that is the area where the most imminent threat resides.
2002-10-18 10:27:02 PM  
Oops, forgot, and 14 KIDS to do the work when you're 40 and can't dig dirt like you used to.
2002-10-18 10:27:46 PM  

OrphanedWombat, why would we care about the balance of power in the Mid-East as long as the oil was flowing, which wouldn't have been a problem as long as we were friends with Saddam?

If one entity gains control over to much of the oil, then some would worry that they don't stay friendly for long, but might exploit their economic leverage. Divide and conquer is preferrable.
2002-10-18 10:27:56 PM  
i'm moving to canada. really.
2002-10-18 10:30:07 PM  
Oh, you know what? You guys have convinced me. Iraq is all about oil. I give up.

You also know what? Serbia wasn't about some Kosovo 'genocide', it was about coal. Vietnam wasn't about defending South Vietnam from Communist insurgents, it was about Nike Sweat shops. WWII wasn't about 'Pearl Harbor', it was about Germany and Japan's natural resources. They already had the infrastructure and facilities in place, eh?
2002-10-18 10:30:44 PM  

The saddest spectacle in the realm of human existence is the matrix slave who thinks that he/she is free and it seems sadly that you fit that to a "t". Did you study economics? I did and had to undo all that economic brainwashing from my university years. I learned a lot about human nature, much more so outside of the university than inside it. Universities are full of sheeiit.
2002-10-18 10:32:30 PM  
Lots of interesting comments on here tonight. The only thing that bothers me is the "emminent threat" thing and the proposed solution. I'm not recommending appeasement, (I know I can't spell and I'm too lazy right now to find a spell-checker), but what is wrong with just cutting them off? Most of the countries we have a problem with are on the U.S./European welfare dole. Let them sink or swim on their own, and sooner or later they might want to join us.

Saddam and most of the other dickheads in the world live on foreign aid. Take that away, keep the sanctions, and they have a lot less to fight about because they will be worried about feeding themselves.
2002-10-18 10:35:36 PM  
ChadManMn, Iraq doesn't live on foreign aid, it lives off of the meager supplies that the Oil for Food program allows. I reallly don't know what we can do about Iraq, but invasion doesn't seem like a horrible idea. A democracy in Iraq would be a major blow to the Islamofascists.

Tarzan, I'm very sorry that your mind has deteriorated since your college years to a paranoid and delusional shell of what it once was.
2002-10-18 10:40:25 PM  
Monkey~ "paranoid and delusional"? Just what about my posts qualify for such labels? What facts do you have to support your positions that could trump my assertions? Your facts are from the mainstream news? Oh, the blue-pill news, in other words. Ok, I get it. Try the red pill sometime.
2002-10-18 10:40:57 PM  
I'll tell you what third-worlders, I'll give up oil, the foundation of my society, if you give up yours, a population of repressed and brainwashed farm laborers with no human rights.
2002-10-18 10:42:03 PM  
I will be laughing so hard when America has set up a democracy in Iraq and you hear all the citizens talking freely like the kurds do now under the no fly zone
2002-10-18 10:43:12 PM  
Tarz, yeah I've studied economics but not in a university. I studied human nature where I learned economics, in my daily life with a little bit (or a lot) of reading on the side.

I didn't see "the matrix" so I don't know what you're referring too, but I can assure you that I'm quite willing to work my 45-65 hours a week in a climate controlled environment and a comfortable chair at the hands of a greedy corporation in exchange for a nice life.

I saw the tail end of the "sustinance" age (again I admit that I cant spell), they being my great-grandparents living in northern Mn, and I have no problem using my mind and whatever else I can arrange to live in a nice city and a house that has no bats in the attic and walls, no mice in the cellar, no cows out back to milk at 5 am when its -30 below, no corn to cut to feed the cows before the ice and snow knocks it down, and only 3 kids to teach, instead of the half dozen or more that I would probably need to keep up that pace.

What would you do in Cali if things went bad? Could you live on your own? I kind of doubt it, but for the sake of conversation, I could.
2002-10-18 10:45:53 PM  
when are you people gonna get hardcore? Jeez louise..
2002-10-18 10:46:28 PM  
ChadManMn: It's Venezuela.
2002-10-18 10:50:16 PM  
Terrorists? In SAUDI ARABIA?

What, is it homecoming already?

Come on, what are the odds?
2002-10-18 10:50:38 PM  
Chrisifa: That would be a great outcome, but it isn't very easy to get there. There are a lot of different factions in Iraq who would love to come to power, but most of them aren't of a democratic mindset.
A successful democracy should be based on an educated populace under no military threat, domestic or foreign. This is unlikely to happen. If democracy is imposed on a country like Iraq, then I suspect it will fail.
But it would be great, and I would laugh right along with you if it were to come about.
2002-10-18 10:51:49 PM  
BbCrackMonkey, I'm not sure about Iraq's income. I know that North Korea gets quite a bit of money from us directly, and maybe I made an assumption about Iraq. But, that is the direct money. What about the IMF? That is a world-wide welfare program, so if Iraq gets IMF money they are on the dole.

I don't know what could be done about it all either, but I wish the govt would quit treating us like a bunch of dipshiats and tell us the facts.

I could care less if they "devulge military secrets". They are asking us to support something that we dont have the facts about. But, I also realize the need for secrecy because you don't want your informants getting capped.

I just hope they know what they are doing, and for the most part I trust them. I would have said the same things in 1941.
2002-10-18 10:53:13 PM  
Chad: Typical American Attitude
2002-10-18 10:53:36 PM  
Indeed, we'd all be laughing when we see Democracy in Iraq. Some at the naysayers who opposed the US, and some of us at ourselves for the same thing.
2002-10-18 10:55:37 PM  

Well, life's a series of trade-offs, with each giving us traders hoped-for better lives. I can see where you are coming from; thanks for the info. Go get the tape of the movie "Matrix"; it's amazing.

Oh I can survive very easily for several years on my own totally. I have full backpacks ready to go at moment's notice (one for me and two for my llama). I have lots of food stored on hand--enough to feed me and several women for many months without new food input. I hope that I won't need to fall back on the stuff, but have it just in case. It's all sproutable seeds of all kinds--no pre-cooked foods at all. I have plenty of gear for fresh raw meat to eat. Plus plenty of chicken/goats for yummy fresh foods.

I don't wish to have to survive in the boonies--I'd rather help our old Republic re-create itself, but perhaps after a total economic collapse happens, my dream can happen. With honest money, people and corporations will be able to make a he11 of a lot more money.

We only need to fire the elite banking ba$tards. They're the real problem.
2002-10-18 10:57:05 PM  
Gracias Veze_. I hope things are getting better for you guys down there. Buenos Noches (I probably didn't spell that right either ;) )
2002-10-18 10:59:04 PM  
hmmm-,ChadManMn and i for an e in sustenance? could be the Al querdas moving in on fark! keep a vigilant eye out folks!
2002-10-18 10:59:05 PM  
Tarzan, I think you should pop the Matrix out of the VCR and then realize that total economic collapse will never happen, and also realize that even if it did you would not need food for "several women" lol. Like I said, delusional.
2002-10-18 11:00:22 PM  
Tarzan - can you back up any of your "facts" from a source OTHER than somebody's GEOCITIES homepage?
2002-10-18 11:01:55 PM  
Of course, if the US does install a dictator in Iraq, which cannot be ruled out, then expect me to be demonstrating in the streets with you guys and raising hell.
2002-10-18 11:02:00 PM  
Tarzan - awaawawawawawawawawa....

Got all dem' dere' supplies leftover from Y2K? How'd that work out for you?
2002-10-18 11:02:57 PM  
NorthVentricle, would you mind explaining how you differ with my opinion? Do you have a problem with the western world lifestyle you enjoy? Could you please explain how you are feeding the poor in the third world? Is there a valid reason for your moral superiority, or is it just 20 something angst?

-Feeling guilty for having a nice life? Who knows, maybe you earned the nice life somehow, or maybe you earned the guilt.
2002-10-18 11:04:15 PM  

you gonna sit here all night and bad mouth each other like retards, or are you going to drop the grade-school talk and behave like intelligent adults?
2002-10-18 11:05:29 PM  
I'll throw my 2 cents in:

1) The 'War on Terrorism' in my opion, was a ruse, as the damn FBI and CIA knew the 'attack' on the US was going to take place. Why would they allow it to happen? Bout the same reason FDR would allow Hawaii to be hit in WW2. My question still is, where was the rpesident during the attack? No where near washington. But then again, I hate Bush and there is alot of infomation out there to manipulate to make it seem he just let it happen. As Dubya is nothing but a puppet anyway.

2) Iraq was our friend, then they attack Kuwait so we attack them. Due to the fact that oil prices might rise, and we would lose money. as started before, we stoped being friends with Iraq after the Iraqi Iran war. Don;t think so? Why are we not in the countries in Aferica freeing the Christians that are dealing with Genocide? (cause they are poor and won;t give us money.) Money is the one thing that makes american politics work, has been this way for a while.

3) It was asked if Veitham was about sweat shops, well it was not abbout bringing democracy. We were 'scared' of communism, why? Cause it threatens our economic intrest.

4) Zionist who rule our country happens to be the biggest peice of mokey crap i ever heard. There are no Zionist, only rich CEO's who want to earn more money, and make there pockets budgle. EVERYTHING the us does both forein and domestic has to do with one thing: Money! We went to 'war with terror' cause Afganistan would bring us a NEW market for american goods. Don;t belive me? just wait.

All the US governemt is, is a bunch of power and money hungry war mongers. If we weren't we would not need shiat like corprate welfare which gives away 400 billion dollars in usless crap. Nor would we just be focusing on Iraq, when Pakistan, India, N. Korea, and other pose the same threat. All it will take is some war monger in Pakistan or Inda and we will hav the nuclear war we have all been fearing, one stray nuke, and bye bye earth.
2002-10-18 11:05:45 PM  
Tarzan, that's impressive and I'm not being sarcastic. The problem (in my mind) is that you're relying on the other 36 million Cali-ites to die or move if things got -really- bad. I wouldn't take that bet.
2002-10-18 11:06:14 PM  
Frumbehind~ is a good site for factual information. I've met Mike Ruppert, who is sincere in his efforts and will not put out any information that cannot be introduced in any court. is another good one. Not all information in this is all provable facts, but the site strives to put out good information. is a good source for Law info.
2002-10-18 11:06:16 PM  
NorthVentricle: This is FARK. What do you think??
2002-10-18 11:06:28 PM  
NorthVent - Typical Canadian Elitist. :P

They're the real problem. Check out www.homepages/​=666/~bo bspage/zionistagenda.htm
2002-10-18 11:07:15 PM  
NorthVentricle, if you haven't noticed, many very excellent points have already been presented in this thread by numerous authors. You just might not have seen them because they were also interspersed with personal insults, which unfortunately is part of politics and also very fun in internet forums :-)
2002-10-18 11:07:48 PM  
Hey now, I'm from Cali, and the views of Tarzan are NOT the views of most californian's. Unless you count So cal ppl, all they seem to want to do is surf or party.
2002-10-18 11:08:03 PM  
Chad - not to mention Southern Cali wouldn't exist without H2O from the Colorado river...pumped for a hundred miles across the desert... Cali would die a swift death. How do you say that it Espagnol?
2002-10-18 11:08:54 PM  
And this one:

Zionism is a massive problem and its hold on the seats of power in the US Empire is amazing and treasonous.
2002-10-18 11:09:00 PM  
The liberal poseur loves to get indignant and exasperated at how bought we all are by oil. Please. Get over your drama-lust and realize this: We can take it or leave it. All the things that oil and its money can bring into our world are easily ignored in favor of the old-fashioned way. Seriously. Look at Granny Clampett.
2002-10-18 11:11:12 PM  
Joke's on me.

Here I am talking up a storm about taking a Matrix *red* pill and my name on Fark is blue, while EVERYONE else's names are RED. WTF?
2002-10-18 11:12:42 PM  
Tarzan, that's because you clicked on your name.
2002-10-18 11:12:54 PM  
Oh please, Zionism this and Zionism that. Ever the rallying cry of the failed cultures looking to hang their failures on the Jews.

For the life of me, I just can't figure out what the hell those people ever did to earn the blame for everything bad that happens in the world.
2002-10-18 11:13:26 PM  
Okay...that site says Israel is a Secular state. Not true... while MOSTLY Jewish, it is not secular by any means. I am Israeli and I am a Methodist. No one in my family is an elitist banker. As far as I know, Palestine is the only "imaginary state" in the region.

Don't forget about all the Romanians, Koreans and others working in Israel now because of the desperate need for affordable labor...

How many Christians are there in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran...?
2002-10-18 11:14:53 PM  

I've earned more guilt in one man's life than you could bear, and none of it for anything illegal. I've acted like an a-hole to almost everyone I knew. Through it all however I have tried my damndest to keep my facts straight, and to not be baited by the rhetoric of others.

Facts as I understand them (and I do stand to be corrected):

The IMF does NOT supply money to Iraq. The only agencies legally allowed to do so are the ICRC and MSF.

The 2nd World War began in 1939, contrary to what Steven Spielberg may have told you. (sarcastic rhetoric, I couldn't help it)

Geography does not dictate a need for American auto dependance. You have planes etc. If you need oil, please feel free to invade Canada. I'll be the first to wave the S+S when you arrive.

Global dependence on Arab oil is merely an institution borne of convenience. You do indeed have many rich and cheap oil reserves on American soil.

GWB wouldn't be waving his prick so much if Iraq had a nuke. Look at N Kor and you will understand what I mean.

North America is already the greatest self sustaining culture in the written history of existence. We got nothing to worry about. We have what it takes to fix the bad shiat when it comes along, and we will in due course.

Chad, you and I have no fundamental disagreement.
2002-10-18 11:16:17 PM  
I suspect that the US is following a policy of not just war against Sadaam H. but one of making the UN take action rather than sitting around with their fingers stuck up each others ass. A policy I could agree with. If the same action taken by previous UN actions were to be taken for other countries such as Korea, then Pakistan, then India, then Kafiristan etc. What use would be the UN?
2002-10-18 11:16:24 PM  
Actually Frumbehind, only so cal would die, as nothern california has its own water supply, but so cal bought it all up.
2002-10-18 11:16:42 PM  
Hytes Xian: Crap, you've defeated the economic incentive line of argumentation. Back to the drawing board for me then ;)
2002-10-18 11:17:37 PM  
Dawg - that's right, and No. Cali gets their water from Oregon. :)
2002-10-18 11:18:58 PM  
yea cause of damn so cal =D
2002-10-18 11:19:22 PM  

Zionism is NOT the whole of the Jewish race.

This site will explain that. The world's problems are NOT because of the Jews; the Jews are just as loving as any other ethnic group in the world. I have close Jewish friends and they understand and agree with my points about Zionism.

Zionism = statism. Rampant STATE power is the problem and Zionism is a big part of that and its role goes much deeper than that, but Fark's not the place to discuss the intricacies of the fark'n elite's power plays preyed upon the people of the world.
2002-10-18 11:19:23 PM  
Yeah NorthVentricle, the 2nd world war began when Hitler invaded Poland. Everyone who is familiar with history knows that.

"If you need oil, please feel free to invade Canada."

Don't tempt us lol :-P

And you're right, Bush wouldn't be so hasty to invade Iraq if they were waving a nuke over our heads.
2002-10-18 11:19:37 PM  
hey..if Hytes jumped into the thread whiloe I was typing thats his CS(cheap shot)...
2002-10-18 11:21:23 PM  
DarkDawg, I see a couple of problems with your disertation.

1) We would make a lot more money (from the oil) to appease them like Clinton did. We wouldn't have the expenditure of military action and no one else seems to give a shiat what Saddam does. We wont recoup the money by sitting on their oil, and we can't sell it for our own profits. We could possibly force a situation where their new govt allowed us to do the drilling, but at $20 a barrel it would take a LONG TIME to recoup the cost.

2) We have had lots of "friends of convenience". I think this is bad only in that we shouldn't have been involved with people like that to begin with, but in the reality where we reside, who is to say that it would have been better to sit on the sidelines? I ask you and others, because it interests me greatly, what would have happened if Hitler took Europe? He could not have taken America, and we would have sold and bought from a Nazi. From a business perspective, who cares? From a humanitarian perspective, -everyone cared in retrospect.

3) I don't buy the "rich CEO's rule the country" idea. Why? -Human nature. Yes, some people are power hungry, but I have met numerous CEO's, and that is not their disposition. They are competitors, and their arena is the world of business. They compete amongst each other. They are already rich before they took the job. And yes I can understand that it might be desirable to get the govt on your side against your competitor, but not against the poor brown people. That kind of thinking is just crazy.

And I don't believe the Jews rule the world either. If that were the case then we wouldn't have problems with extremist Muslims would we?

Are there any people left on fark that can be happy with living a safe live and raising your kids? Seems good to me, and no, I don't have to be "rich by world standards" to enjoy what is important to me.
2002-10-18 11:22:15 PM  
Tarzan, and who are all those Zionist conspirators again? Oh yeah, Jews. Sounds like someone needs to pop Matrix outta the VCR as well as put down The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
2002-10-18 11:23:14 PM  
Bb: Thanks for listening...I'm glad someone sees it the way I do.

Though I must warn, if Canada becomes assimilated, some very basic English pronunciations will be enforced. I.E. NEW-clear (not NEW-Kew-Lur) and ASK (NOT "axe")
2002-10-18 11:26:45 PM  
NorthVentricle, Nuclear is actually pronounced new-klee-ur. And the whole axe pronunciation is mainly among ebonic speakers. You don't even wanna get started on them.
2002-10-18 11:26:48 PM  
It's ok NorthVentricle, Jesse the mind is the most powerful governor in the U.S. and he will be made Consulate of the Northern and formerly Kanuck Frontier, and we speak as you do, but we don't say eh. So beware non-uppermidwesterners, you will be assimilated into the proper speach patterns! Muaahhhhahahahaha!
2002-10-18 11:28:03 PM  
Bb: I took a degree in ebonics. When I graggeated, I decided to celebarte by going to We-B-Toys.
2002-10-18 11:28:37 PM  
Tarzan: Okay...checked out this site you seem to be so enamored of...well whaddya know. Religious fundamentalism. And you present this as factual information?

And please do spare me the "Matrix" analogies. This isn't the Matrix, and you aren't Keanu Reeves. The Matrix is a movie, this is reality. I'd wager I have a better grip on it than you do, despite my lack of tinfoil haberdashery.

Here's a hint to help you cope. When everyone thinks you're crazy, and the only reason you can offer for this is that they are obviously under some sort of mind control, then it is probably time to objectively re-evaluate your world view.
2002-10-18 11:29:31 PM  
You took a degree in ebonics? Is there some sort of field where that would be useful, such as the world of gansta rap or an ebonician?
2002-10-18 11:29:37 PM  
Chad: you have me in stitches, eh? That's fvcking hilarious. Good on you. Jesse the mind. Wheeee-HAA
2002-10-18 11:29:48 PM  
Shoot, I read North's post too quickly. I say new-clee-er also. And we win because we invented it. -But for the most part I have to go with North.
2002-10-18 11:30:11 PM  

If you read the whole set of the Protocols, and you are honest with yourself, you will be amazed at how close the descriptive machinations of the Protocols are to the reality of modern times. The match is almost 100%. It's been "debunked"? Oh, yes, in the mainstream news, of course. The ba$tards don't want you to get the connection.

I rest my case just on the wording of the Protocols themselves. What are the probabilies of a set of Protocols to have been written up in the 1800's to have had a nearly 100% match with reality a FULL century later? 100 years LATER? That is a whole hell of a lot better than ol Nostradamus.

AP..."Associated Press"? Try "Ass-nine Propaganda"
2002-10-18 11:31:20 PM  
Bbcrackmonkey- give them somethiong to hang onto from the old world at least!-new-klee-ur eh?
2002-10-18 11:31:22 PM  
Bb: I actually have a very prolific job in translation. I can simultaneously scribe street into white. It's useful in my crib, yo (eh?)
2002-10-18 11:31:58 PM  
or some thong whatever...
2002-10-18 11:33:01 PM  
What about li-bary and to-mor-ee?
2002-10-18 11:33:26 PM  
Talat: mind above the waist, please...we're gentlemen and ladies here...well we pretend to be such for the most part anyway
2002-10-18 11:34:30 PM  
Ahahaha, Tarzan, how did I know you were a fan of the Protocols? How did I hit that nail on the head? Maybe its because I'm one of 'them' eh? I think you've adequately discredited yourself far more than I need to.

Anyone in here who doesn't know about the Protocols, it is a Jewish conspiracy book written by some anti-semite Russian Czarist that talks about how the Jews run the world. Same old shiat, different time period.
2002-10-18 11:34:43 PM  
NorthVentricle, if you ever make your way to the Twin Cities, look me up. We can plot together. (in Mn we really don't like most of the rest of the country, they don't even know what a moose looks like).

-Take care everyone, I'm on my way out to enjoy some Mexican beer that I buy thanks to the eeeeevil American corporations that are subjecting down-trodden brown people to brew our beer... sickening. (I'll have a Canadian beer too)
2002-10-18 11:35:45 PM  
have one for me, Chad...cheers!
2002-10-18 11:36:17 PM  
Lol, you guys crack me up. You Canadians will have to give up all your extra "W"s in worse like labor and color.

And you can stop pronouncing about as aboot too, eh?
2002-10-18 11:36:37 PM  
Yo north... you gots da excalade wid da 20's? I rowl own dubs myself. I gots 5 lcd screens to watch dvds cuz 1 wuttin enuff. nome sayin? jeah. i likes to plays my snoop froggy frog at the gas pump while i pump my 1.39 worth a gas in my 60k rizide. nome sayin? aight. i'm off to my grammas house, not my real gramma but she be de won dat dunt rasit me....
2002-10-18 11:37:32 PM  
I'm selling my Ford Explorer and ordered a Honda CR-V today. Goodbye 16MPG hello 28MPG. I can't wait to pawn that guzzler off on some dumbass redneck and then watch gas prices slowly climb over the next year. I'm gonna enjoy watching this war on CNN in a few weeks and then bicycling past the gas pump, which I have already been doing for 2 years. Cheney is gonna be a billionare after this over. Cheap oil sure was fun....sigh...i'll miss ya.
2002-10-18 11:37:34 PM  
I don't know what you're talking aboot, eh?

and it's "U" -- only one, not a double
2002-10-18 11:37:47 PM  
What did I just say? Give up the W's?

Me fail English? But that's unpossible!
2002-10-18 11:37:53 PM  

The site that you mentioned is not the only one, to wit:

And many dozens more.

Many--but not all--Zionists are Jews, but Zionism does NOT represent the whole of the Jewish race.
2002-10-18 11:41:14 PM  
tarzan, the vast majority of people who propagate that 'anti-zionist' crap are really just jew-haters who want to disguise their hate. You may be different, but you are still foolish enough to give credence to any conspiracy theory you hear.

All aboard the USS Sanity! Tickets please. Tickets. Sorry sir you need a ticket to board this ship.
2002-10-18 11:42:46 PM  
Tarzan: I will not be visiting those sites, as I suspect they are probably cut 'n paste copies of the same fundamentalist propaganda found on the first site you referenced. One's my limit for the month.

I really don't care to argue with a zealot, however. Zealots are really hard to convince, and I just don't have the motivation. Besides which, I just got un-banned. :)

Anyhow, save me a seat on the mothership. QD, out.
2002-10-18 11:44:05 PM  
I feel sorry for those poor europeans who have had their petrol taxed into hell so the money could go towards their bloated welfare states
2002-10-18 11:44:11 PM  
oddly enough chadman, my clothes are being drycleaned and pressed by a company run by a russian lady that employs a bunch of SA(south american so as to not offend the 'SA' groupies) ladies.In Arizona, I suspect that all involved are making more money here than they would be at home, only on the obvious fact that they are here and not there...i suppose i could be wrong and perhaps they are all here on refugee status....
2002-10-18 11:45:02 PM  
I'm prolly too ignurnt to unnerstand what in hell y'all talkin.
2002-10-18 11:45:07 PM  

You just demonstrated how effective the brainwashing of the Ass-nine Propaganda has done with regards the Protocols. It was written a long time ago, yes, but what is really amazing is that when you read it--DID YOU EVER READ IT?--is that it has a near-total match with the reality of today...a full one hundred years LATER. Explain that.

Read it.
2002-10-18 11:46:17 PM  
Chrisifa: Why? I mean yeah it sucks to pay so much for a litre of petrol, but they have so much in compensation as far as safe, reliable public transit. Auto culture in Europe has always been thought of as a luxury for the most.
2002-10-18 11:53:31 PM  
i guess that means i won't be able to patent my previous idea on the SSO(super secret organization)- the one that monitors everyone in the US. It really would have been good for the US and other countries though, i think. That way, we could keep track of the Al Qaedas of the world and keep our own people away from such attacks as the world trade center and bali.
2002-10-18 11:56:49 PM  
and the brits, canadians, selected saudis, turks, indians, etc. but no aussies, they're too liberal or isolanist, and besides, their immigration laws put the US to shame. Fark the Aussies...
2002-10-18 11:59:55 PM  
Webber's: Isolanist-
1: Contraction for isolationist
2: injcorrect speeling of isolationist.
2002-10-19 12:00:22 AM  
i live in a cocoon of my own preferentialationalized making. Why do I keep seeing the word Bali?
2002-10-19 12:00:30 AM  
it was a fine idea, Talat, but I think a bit late...all the sarcastics have gone to bed (but for lil old me...and I like your way of thinking ;) )
2002-10-19 12:08:08 AM  
North Ventricle: "Auto culture in Europe has always been thought of as a luxury for the most"

And this is good?
2002-10-19 12:09:24 AM  
I figured an isolanist was someone who only likes plants in the family Solanaceae, which includes tomatoes, potatoes, peppers, eggplants, petunias, belladonna, and evildeathvirginkillerspikehead plant.
2002-10-19 12:13:16 AM  
I love how the pro-war faction keeps spouting that "our government wants us, the People, to continue to have cheap gas for our cars and our businesses. So that they can continue to drive to the corner store without a thought. That's what this fight is about, oh and also to wipe out terrorism".

Is it really possible that Mr Bush and his handlers are worried about the price per gallon that they have to pay at the pump? Do they worry about rising costs whenever they have to fill up Airforce One? I doubt it.

Maybe it's just that they are bit concerned about their own personal oil and munitions portfolios.
2002-10-19 12:17:18 AM  
"Auto culture in Europe has always been thought of as a luxury for the most"

I'm not aware of that, and I'm European. A quick look around tells me that anyone with a steady income can afford a car of some sort. The public transportation works reasonably well, and many live close to their work, so the option is there for a lot of people to rely on that.
2002-10-19 12:20:16 AM  
Oh and also, the last time I checked, the U.S.A. enjoyed the lowest fuel cost per/gallon in the world. And yet has one of the highest per-capita disposable incomes. Would it kill y'all to pay three-times or even thirty-times more to run your cars? Might be a good way to alleviate the obesity problem. Not to mention the choking smog issue.
2002-10-19 12:29:35 AM  
Jill Billy, nah, it saves time to drive, we just need to bust our ass on a treadmil.
2002-10-19 12:29:44 AM  
Jill Billy: Americans like cars, get over it
2002-10-19 01:40:30 AM  
Tarzan:Democracy" is just a smoke shield to give the US Empire excuses to operate with impunity world-wide. The blood of those people who lost their lives to US-installed dick-tators is on your hands, as your (and millions of others, like you, who are otherwise intelligent, productive persons) woeful lack of understanding has enabled the US Empire to become the prime nation-destroyer in the world.

Um, Woot. We're number one.
After reading this entire string, I think it would have been funnier if Tarzan had just recently seen the original, Charleton Heston version of Planet of the Apes.

[Chimpism] is NOT the whole of the [Ape] race.

This site will explain that. The world's problems are NOT because of the [Apes]; the [Apes] are just as loving as any other ethnic group in the world. I have close [Ape] friends and they understand and agree with my points about [Chimpism].

Oh, what could have been.
2002-10-19 08:59:52 AM  
nice discussion. This is what the internet is all about

It is not too unlikely that a profitable western style democracy can be established in Iraq - before the Gulf war, the Iraqi people were among the most highly educated and enlightened people in the world. I just hope this decade of hardship has not done too much damage to their reasoning... Tarzan, too much David Icke man... take a little step back... Also I don't discount the possibility that invading Iraq is for a strategical advantage, or cheap oil, it's probably a combination of all we hear - but LEAST of all it's about protecting people from terror, US or otherwise.
2002-10-19 02:25:02 PM  
zionism is about having jews return to their homeland. nothing else. They rule the world? riiight.

and democracy in a middle eastern country? Only Israel wants it, every other country does not. You put a democracy in Saudi Arabia or Iraq, it will fall within days. Its a joke that some people on here actually think it will *work*
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