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(Daily Kos)   Daily Kos figures out that the right-wing crazy is just like the left-wing crazy   (dailykos.com ) divider line 266
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12443 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Jan 2008 at 5:15 PM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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MFL
2008-01-04 06:34:21 PM  
The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party (new window)

You'll see tendancies from both sides on here.

The one thing that sticks out is the "common good before individual good theme".
 
2008-01-04 06:34:25 PM  
Alphax 2008-01-04 06:27:38 PM
chu2dogg: North Korea doesn't have a democracy, but the NAZI parties all had socialist economic practices. Care to try again?

What "socialist economic practices"? Examples?
:

7. We demand that the State shall above all undertake to ensure that every citizen shall have the possibility of living decently and earning a livelihood.

10. The first duty of every citizen must be to work mentally or physically. No individual shall do any work that offends against the interest of the community to the benefit of all.

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.

19. We demand that Roman law, which serves a materialist ordering of the world, be replaced by German common law.


20. In order to make it possible for every capable and industrious German to obtain higher education, and thus the opportunity to reach into positions of leadership, the State must assume the responsibility of organizing thoroughly the entire cultural system of the people. The curricula of all educational establishments shall be adapted to practical life. The conception of the State Idea (science of citizenship) must be taught in the schools from the very beginning. We demand that specially talented children of poor parents, whatever their station or occupation, be educated at the expense of the State.

21. The State has the duty to help raise the standard of national health by providing maternity welfare centers, by prohibiting juvenile labor, by increasing physical fitness through the introduction of compulsory games and gymnastics, and by the greatest possible encouragement of associations concerned with the physical education of the young.

COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.




Link (new window)
 
2008-01-04 06:36:04 PM  
Chu's assuming that nationalizing industries is a uniquely leftist thing to do. That's all.

Is this satire?

 
2008-01-04 06:36:16 PM  
chu2dogg

Why do you think they got kicked out of all the big socialist organizations? :P
 
2008-01-04 06:37:49 PM  
MFL: The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party (new window)

You'll see tendancies from both sides on here.

The one thing that sticks out is the "common good before individual good theme".


Thanks, MFL. Exactly what I was trying to say. These young buck here are taught in school communism/socialism GOOD, and somehow line free-market to facism.
 
Oak
2008-01-04 06:38:24 PM  
birdboy2000: Brain_Droppings

Socialism isn't authoritarian. :P


Socialism is inherently authoritarian.
 
2008-01-04 06:38:24 PM  
Something that might help is one of the many graphs of this kind:
img136.imageshack.us


This one is from The World's Smallest Political Quiz. (pops)
 
2008-01-04 06:39:07 PM  
bRAIN dROPPINGS: and somehow line free-market to facism.

that one always confused me, too. Freedom is slavery!
 
2008-01-04 06:39:08 PM  
The 14 Points of Fascism:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military.
5. Rampant Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
14. Fraudulent Elections
 
2008-01-04 06:39:26 PM  
chu2dogg thinks the NAZIs actually followed their fancy 25 point plan.
 
MFL
2008-01-04 06:39:44 PM  
bRAIN dROPPINGS Thanks, MFL. Exactly what I was trying to say. These young buck here are taught in school communism/socialism GOOD, and somehow line free-market to facism.

Boggles the mind doesn't it?
 
2008-01-04 06:41:03 PM  
MFL: If Wikipedia says it, it must be true!

Feel free to find any reputable source material that contradicts it on the subject.

bRAIN dROPPINGS: Authoritarianism, economic planning.

I did a search, the term "economic planning" didn't exist in the article. Authoritarianism has zero to do with the original quote I mocked you for. There was a link of an "Economics of Fascism" article that said this, however:

The first fascist or proto-fascist movements arose in the last years of World War I. They carried a promise of national rebirth, they blamed liberalism, socialism and materialism for the decadence they perceived in society and culture, and they advocated a return to traditional conservative values (though they proposed to achieve this through a new political system).

And while we're on the subject, do you find that grasping at straws to prove that "Those people who are sort of like communists, who are sort of like fascists, which makes those people Nazis!!1one!" does as much to make your "side" look like idiots as much anything anyone else could say about it?
 
2008-01-04 06:41:11 PM  
dbaggins
chu2dogg thinks knows that the NAZIs actually followed their fancy 25 point plan.
 
2008-01-04 06:41:13 PM  
Alphax: 5. Rampant Sexism

come now, including that point would make it impossible for any fascist regime to be headed by a female dictator. And just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's impossible.
 
2008-01-04 06:41:17 PM  
Alphax: The 14 Points of Fascism:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
4. Supremacy of the Military.

5. Rampant Sexism
6. Controlled Mass Media
7. Obsession with National Security
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined

9. Corporate Power is Protected
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

14. Fraudulent Elections


Sound familiar?
 
2008-01-04 06:42:42 PM  
MFL: bRAIN dROPPINGS Thanks, MFL. Exactly what I was trying to say. These young buck here are taught in school communism/socialism GOOD, and somehow line free-market to facism.

Boggles the mind doesn't it?



It's as silly as thinking communism/socialism BAD. I agree that the complexities are lost in these sort of broad generalizations.
 
2008-01-04 06:42:57 PM  
bRAIN dROPPINGS: Thanks, MFL. Exactly what I was trying to say. These young buck here are taught in school communism/socialism GOOD, and somehow line free-market to facism.



??? what school is this then ? I have to assume the number of schools teaching kids that communism is great is huge, given that you use such an indefinite "in school".

are we going to get another link from michellemalkin.com ?

heck, if is backed this up I'd read it. go ahead!
 
2008-01-04 06:43:14 PM  
MFL: The 25 Points of Hitler's Nazi Party (new window)

You'll see tendancies from both sides on here.

The one thing that sticks out is the "common good before individual good theme".


I think Jesus promoted that as well.
 
2008-01-04 06:43:35 PM  
MFL: Boggles the mind doesn't it?

You mean that you actually believe 5th graders are reading the Communist Manifesto? Yeah, your paranoia boggles my mind.
 
2008-01-04 06:43:42 PM  
m2313: bRAIN dROPPINGS:

Ding ding ding! There is at least as bad an authoritarian streak on the left as the right.



At least? Aren't communists/socialists for total government control, by definition? I've always though of facisim as part of the left since it is a branch of socialism.



Yeah, I mean look at this goddamn commie


Look up a picture of Stalin from the 1930s, he'll look about the same.

As for the people who are saying that Communism and Naziism couldn't have anything to do with one another because Communists and Nazis were trying to kill each other in Germany, I don't follow your logic. It's like saying the Crips and the Bloods can't be similar, since they're always trying to kill each other. Both Nazis and Communists wanted the same thing -- total power (unlike the democratic parties in Germany) -- which required wiping out their adversaries.

How much socialism there was in fascism varied from place to place. In early and very late Italian fascism, a lot. In Spanish and Hungarian fascism, just about none. In German fascism, it varied. But corporations were never allowed a totally free hand -- that is why Hitler had four-year plans. How much capitalism existed under communism varied a lot too. Even leaving aside China over the last 30 years, how about Lenin's New Economic Policy?
 
2008-01-04 06:44:42 PM  
I think Jesus promoted that as well.

I'm not religious but I'm pretty well versed in biblical studies and I'm pretty sure that is a fail.

 
2008-01-04 06:45:07 PM  
seventypercent: Yeah, and North Korea is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Nazi Germany was indeed Socialist - but that doesn't mean that Socialism leads to Fascism anymore than being a vegetarian makes you Hitler-esque.
 
2008-01-04 06:46:14 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: Alphax: 5. Rampant Sexism

come now, including that point would make it impossible for any fascist regime to be headed by a female dictator. And just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's impossible.



you don't need ALL the check boxes to be fascist. just a lot of them. How many ? that's always going to be a matter of judgment. No government meets ALL these criteria.
 
2008-01-04 06:47:10 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: come now, including that point would make it impossible for any fascist regime to be headed by a female dictator. And just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it's impossible.

A female-headed society that makes men second class citizens? Very improbable. But it could still be sexist, just in the opposite direction.
 
MFL
2008-01-04 06:47:14 PM  
keypusher How much socialism there was in fascism varied from place to place. In early and very late Italian fascism, a lot. In Spanish and Hungarian fascism, just about none. In German fascism, it varied. But corporations were never allowed a totally free hand -- that is why Hitler had four-year plans. How much capitalism existed under communism varied a lot too. Even leaving aside China over the last 30 years, how about Lenin's New Economic Policy?

The common theme they all had was an all powerful central government.
 
2008-01-04 06:47:31 PM  

Look up a picture of Stalin from the 1930s, he'll look about the same.

Authoritarians love themselves


As for the people who are saying that Communism and Naziism couldn't have anything to do with one another because Communists and Nazis were trying to kill each other in Germany, I don't follow your logic. It's like saying the Crips and the Bloods can't be similar, since they're always trying to kill each other. Both Nazis and Communists wanted the same thing -- total power (unlike the democratic parties in Germany) -- which required wiping out their adversaries.

All authoritarians want absolute control. Not all authoritarians are socialist. This would assume that all absolute monarchies, and every dictatorship in history was socialist.
Nazis are right wing authoritarians, and Communists are left wing authoritarians.
 
2008-01-04 06:48:11 PM  
m2313:

Sound familiar?

"supremacy of the military?" Not really, no. An administration that actually cared about supporting the military would do its damnedest to eliminate all the wasted time and money between designing equipment and getting that equipment to the troops. We wouldn't have ever been talking about up-armored HMMWV's, and defense spending would be a lot more than 4% of GDP.
 
2008-01-04 06:48:19 PM  
bRAIN dROPPINGS

Nazis hated communists and socialists. Are you farking kidding me? They persecuted them violently.
 
2008-01-04 06:48:44 PM  
brain_Droppings

Oh, I see here. It's a difference in word usage.

Initially, "socialism" referred to a combined movement bringing together all sorts of pro-worker, anti-capitalist elements - Lenin and the Mensheviks in Russia, Debs and the IWW in the US.

It doesn't anymore, because the militant, authoritarian half of the movement by and large took the name "communist" for their faction. Socialist parties active at the time split into, generally into bitterly antagonistic groups. (See: Social democrats sending out the Freikorps to crush the communists, Bolsheviks making war on Mensheviks, etc.)

This isn't always the case these days, because the disputes in question didn't touch the third world that much and decades have gone by. In some countries now, communists and socialists even hold together in government coalitions.

Fascists are a completely different group. They combined bits and pieces of socialist theory into their ideas, yes, and owing to the times they look far-left economically to our eyes - in those days, they were more often than not thought of as the best hope for the rich. Mussolini was a socialist, yes, and he fought against his old comrades with a convert's zeal, but the people who followed him were generally thugs, mouth-breathing nationalists, and people pissed off about commies and socialists having such radical ideas as "men and women are equal", "government should be religiously neutral", and such.

They are not and were never the same. They are and have generally been bitter enemies - not because of trivial aspects of ideology, but because of tremendous differences in their views on individual freedom, nationalism, and the role of the state.
 
2008-01-04 06:49:16 PM  
dbaggins: you don't need ALL the check boxes to be fascist. just a lot of them. How many ? that's always going to be a matter of judgment. No government meets ALL these criteria.

And no government meets less than 5 or 6, depending on who's doing the counting.
 
2008-01-04 06:49:50 PM  
replace "supporting the military" with "elevating it to supreme importance" kthx

//d'oh
 
MFL
2008-01-04 06:50:27 PM  
Jon Snow Nazis hated communists and socialists. Are you farking kidding me? They persecuted them violently..

Nazi's hated anything that wasn't German or in Germany's best interest.
 
2008-01-04 06:50:46 PM  
chu2dogg: I think Jesus promoted that as well.I'm not religious but I'm pretty well versed in biblical studies and I'm pretty sure that is a fail.

Obviously you have never met Jesus Martinez. He even has a sign.
 
2008-01-04 06:51:28 PM  
m2313: All authoritarians want absolute control. Not all authoritarians are socialist. This would assume that all absolute monarchies, and every dictatorship in history was socialist.
Nazis are right wing authoritarians, and Communists are left wing authoritarians.


QFT
 
2008-01-04 06:52:11 PM  
m2313: Look up a picture of Stalin from the 1930s, he'll look about the same.
Authoritarians love themselves


As for the people who are saying that Communism and Naziism couldn't have anything to do with one another because Communists and Nazis were trying to kill each other in Germany, I don't follow your logic. It's like saying the Crips and the Bloods can't be similar, since they're always trying to kill each other. Both Nazis and Communists wanted the same thing -- total power (unlike the democratic parties in Germany) -- which required wiping out their adversaries.

All authoritarians want absolute control. Not all authoritarians are socialist. This would assume that all absolute monarchies, and every dictatorship in history was socialist.
Nazis are right wing authoritarians, and Communists are left wing authoritarians.


Looks like we agree completely. Now I feel all dirty.
 
2008-01-04 06:52:38 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: m2313:

Sound familiar?

"supremacy of the military?" Not really, no. An administration that actually cared about supporting the military would do its damnedest to eliminate all the wasted time and money between designing equipment and getting that equipment to the troops. We wouldn't have ever been talking about up-armored HMMWV's, and defense spending would be a lot more than 4% of GDP.


Yeah. but they still act like the military is supreme. The administration's slogan (or just die hard Republicans) is if you don't support the Iraq War you don't support the troops. They also say all troops are American heroes and you can not say anything against the Iraq War or your against America.
 
2008-01-04 06:53:42 PM  
MFL: Nazi's hated anything that wasn't German or in Germany's best interest.

Yes. Attacking Russia was obviously in their best interest. Attacking non-communist Italy would have been far too great a challenge.
 
2008-01-04 06:54:11 PM  
Polly Ester: In the past, Kos has only backed candidates who pay him or is friends as consultants. I guess no one is paying him right now.

He was a consultant in '04, yes (and disclosed it), and doesn't need the money anymore, since the site earns enough on its own. Still, he backed a bunch of candidates in '06, and wasn't paid by any of them. Your statement is wrong.

Say anything about the Daily Kos community - there are plenty of crazies with strange worldviews who deserve the scorn. But Kos himself is not that extreme, and is a pretty decent guy. The "screw them" comment linked above (which isn't "cheering" the deaths) has been thrown around every Kos thread for the past four years - you'd think he'd have said something else extreme by now.
 
MFL
2008-01-04 06:55:21 PM  
m2313 Yeah. but they still act like the military is supreme. The administration's slogan (or just die hard Republicans) is if you don't support the Iraq War you don't support the troops. They also say all troops are American heroes and you can not say anything against the Iraq War or your against America.

They aren't taking away your right to say it. They are just calling you an idiot for saying it. There is a big difference.
 
2008-01-04 06:56:16 PM  
Have you mouthbreathing tardclusters of FAIL never heard of the "First they came..." poem?

Jesus tittyfarking Christ. Go back to school.
 
2008-01-04 06:57:02 PM  
Incidentally, the "14 points of fascism" was authored in 2004 by a Dr. Laurence Britt, a political scientist (and evidently not a fascist sympathizer).

14 Points (new window)
 
2008-01-04 06:58:05 PM  
Jon Snow: Have you mouthbreathing tardclusters of FAIL never heard of the "First they came..." poem?

Jesus tittyfarking Christ. Go back to school.


YOW! That was some blast. Everybody, fan out and look for survivors!
 
2008-01-04 07:00:12 PM  
MFL: m2313 Yeah. but they still act like the military is supreme. The administration's slogan (or just die hard Republicans) is if you don't support the Iraq War you don't support the troops. They also say all troops are American heroes and you can not say anything against the Iraq War or your against America.

They aren't taking away your right to say it. They are just calling you an idiot for saying it. There is a big difference.


img.photobucket.com
 
2008-01-04 07:03:15 PM  
I think I'll save this thread as a classic example of Godwin's Law. We started off so well.
 
2008-01-04 07:04:54 PM  
Staypuft_Mushmallow_Manz: Jon Snow: Have you mouthbreathing tardclusters of FAIL never heard of the "First they came..." poem?

Jesus tittyfarking Christ. Go back to school.

YOW! That was some blast. Everybody, fan out and look for survivors!


Dear god...pseudo-intellectual tripe with hyper-arrogant bombast.

RUN!
Get in the car!
 
2008-01-04 07:05:43 PM  
Maybe economically Nazis we left wing but I don't remember them showing a lot of support for gay marriage or civil rights.
 
2008-01-04 07:05:52 PM  
Manfred J. Hattan: MasterThief: Somewhere on that spectrum, left-wing crazy and right-wing crazy become all but indistinguishable.

Currently, they meet at the 9-11 "truth" movement.


I was trying to figure out how extreme right wing and extreme left wing folks were the same, besides crazy and extreme. Thanks.
 
MFL
2008-01-04 07:06:35 PM  
BMFPitt Yes. Attacking Russia was obviously in their best interest. Attacking non-communist Italy would have been far too great a challenge.

Hitler knew his best chance for victory was a swift war. The idea of invading the Soviet Union in 1941 was the best option because by the beginning of 1943 England would be ready, the USA would be ready, and Russians would be ready too. Hitler would have to deal with all three of them at the same time.

He backstabbed the Russians even though in 1939 Germany and the Soviet Union had signed a Non-Aggression Pact. This wouldn't bring England or the US into the war right away because the USSR was not one of their allies.

/I love the farking History Channel
 
2008-01-04 07:14:15 PM  
Raptor Jesus: Manfred J. Hattan: MasterThief: Somewhere on that spectrum, left-wing crazy and right-wing crazy become all but indistinguishable.

Currently, they meet at the 9-11 "truth" movement.

I was trying to figure out how extreme right wing and extreme left wing folks were the same, besides crazy and extreme. Thanks.


9/11 Truthers, anti-Israel derangement, international governmental conspiracies involving medical experiments/covert ops against a countries own citizens, etc.
 
2008-01-04 07:14:57 PM  
against a countriesy's own
 
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