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(IHT)   Bush pushing "abstinence-only" programs at the expense of family planning & contraceptives   (iht.com) divider line 154
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1007 clicks; posted to Main » on 01 Aug 2001 at 8:28 AM (12 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»

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2001-08-01 12:04:20 PM
3horn, ah yes, now I've found the debate thread for today. Well, it hasn't gotten extremely uncivil yet, so.... no, I won't say it.
Anyway, personally, I think we should teach kids about sex. It's sex. It's natural. It's not some "evil" modern secular society created. If you think people didn't get pregnant out of wedlock back in the "old" days, you're crazy. Families just made the kids get married back then. I'm sure that if you go back thru the historical record, there were a hell of a lot of births less than 9 months after marriage. People will have sex. Teens will have sex. Better to educate them on the consequences, and how to do it safely. Again, idealism is great, but that isn't how the real world works.
As far as abortion goes, it's none of my damn business as I'm a guy, and I've never gotten anyone pregnant. A woman's body is just that...her body. No one should legislate what she does with her internal functions. This is just a personal note, but if my parents were not going to be able to properly raise me, or if I was going to have some horrible defect, I would hope that my parents would have aborted me. I would not have known any different, and I would have been spared a life even suckier than what life is as a "normal" person. (I use the term "normal" very loosely here)
2001-08-01 12:07:21 PM

I challenge you to find statistics to back up that "teen pregnancy used to be low". You won't find any. Why? Because its not true. The "the grass was greener" arguments are almost always incorrect. Pregnancies used to be hidden. In the victorian era, it was common to corsett the baby in as tightly as possible so people wouldn't notice. In greek times, it was common to expose the child on the hillside. In the 60s and 70s, it was common to rush the two people into getting married, and then tell everyone the child was premature. Teen pregnancies have always been with us, and always will. This is verified by the fact that the highest teen pregnancy rates in the world are in the most conservative countries.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 12:10:28 PM

Its not that there's nothing wrong with abortion. You're stuck in a black-and-white binary mindset. There is a linear scale of complexity, a linear scale of level of thought processes, etc. Delaying it *does* make it worse, because you're destroying a more advanced being. An immediate abortion destroys a mass of cells, which doesn't even have neurons, let alone synapses, let alone human-complexity synapses, let alone unique human complexity synapses. However, the longer you wait, the more "immoral" it is.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 12:17:54 PM
I, for one, do not understand how one human being has the right to tell another human being what to do with their own body. I feel that this is a matter of choice for that particular person or situation. Sex education and condoms are the logical choice in fighting unwanted pregnancies and STDs (logical= using ones brain to think with rather than let a hypocrite make your choices for you). You can have your "pregnant friend" stories and anecdotes, but that means very little to others. Let's make an agreement.

I promise not to tell you that most "Pro-Life" people that I have met have no control over their unruly little brats, If you promise to keep your busybody, harping, fishwife noses out of everyone elses business, and worry about your own lousy lives. What you pro-lifers realy need to worry about is all the orphans in the world, why don't you people help out and start adopting, instead of telling others what to do
2001-08-01 12:29:46 PM
BTW, to the pro-lifers out there:

Don't have sex. Ever again.
15% of pregnancies abort before the would-be mother even knows she's pregnant. A good number miscarry later
By your view, you're committing murder by that act way a good percentage of the time.

Oh, wait, this is *god intended* murder here, right? So its ok. Apparently, God *wants* hundreds of millions of babies to die each year before being born, right? Oh, then go on having sex.

BTW, I wonder how long this'll take to turn to a debate about stem cell research...? ;)

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 12:31:52 PM
Daz, I won't start with the religious bullshiat, but what time period are you thinking of? 70 years ago maybe? Do you know how many college kids say their mom had them when she was 16 or 17? Is that the happy feel good time you are referring to in your post?

You state that there was no unwanted pregnancy problem back then (whenever then was). Are you serious? What about all the dads that just up and left when they got a girl pregnant? Surely you aren't claiming that guys running away is only a modern problem and never happened in the 50s and 60s.

It was common practice in the 60s etc that if a girl got pregnant too early, her mother would essentially help her raise the child. Where is the great acceptance of responsibility in that?

Furthermore, you are very high and mighty about what you would do if you got someone pregnant. Good for you. You state that you are both consenting adults. That is exactly the problem. Teenage boys and girls AREN'T adults. At 15, they lack any skills that would make them marketable in the workplace, and able to support themselves and a baby.

I'm not saying that shouldn't take responsibility for their actions. But you are deluding yourself if you state that it was so much better "back then" and we didn't have this problem.
2001-08-01 12:34:52 PM
Well Rei i think Stem Cell research tastes like Chicken do you agree? Some say it tastes more like Pork.... : P
2001-08-01 12:40:17 PM
If life ends at brain death, life should begin at brain life, which doesn't occur until the third trimester.
2001-08-01 12:40:31 PM
Back On Topic:

We seem to be forget what a hypocrite this President is being. He certainly didn't practice any abstinence when he was young. From all that I have read he was quit the shack-master. How does he expect anyone else to do the same.

I think Bush knows he will never get re-elected. He was only elected the first time .....(must stay on topic.)
He is just going blazing balls to the right. Moderates be damned.
2001-08-01 12:42:01 PM
i say we abort em all every other decade. gives us a bit more elbow room.
2001-08-01 12:42:30 PM
Awww do we have to get back on Topic mom?
2001-08-01 12:48:04 PM
hey soupgoblin: people can do what they want with their own body but they shouldn't forget about that person who can't defend of speak up for themselves.

and about all that 15% stuff and the embryo's aborting before they're born. hey, that happens it's natural. putting your feet in stirrups and letting someone dig around inside you with a vacum isn't.
did you know that every time a volcano errupts it puts more toxic pollutants into the air than the human race has in the last 100 years. why then are people trying to make cars and factories more efficient?
fighting pollution is like fighting abortion, except every one agrees pollution is bad. i think this is what we call a double standard
2001-08-01 12:50:13 PM
CharlieBrown: Are you sure about that? He is so godawful looking I can't imagine anyone doing him. (That's obviously why he is with Laura - they are the ony ones who would boink eachother)

p.s. I'm going to throw up now.
2001-08-01 12:50:32 PM
2001-08-01 12:55:13 PM
Chanjade: I always thought stem cells tasted more like beef...being human and red meat and all. It just take so much time to gather enough for a mouthful. More expensive than caviar, I'm tellin' ya.
2001-08-01 12:55:17 PM
I know it is sick,
but I LAUGH an LAUGH when I see that poster, strider.
2001-08-01 12:57:02 PM
welstradamus: when people find someone unconsious, they check for a heartbeat no heartbeat=no life. heartbeat starts at 22 days.

now lets take it one step further shall we.
when searching for evidence at a crime scene, investigators often look for DNA evidence. HUMAN DNA. dont give me this "bacteria has DNA crap". Were talking HUMAN CNA. that child from the monent it's concieved has human DNA.

mabey the fetus commited the crime. hmmm. new clue character.
2001-08-01 12:57:09 PM

Er... It is then Unnatural to have a sergery for a heartattack. To treat cancer... To get a bullet removed.. We should say "well that is the way it is I just lay down and die" in the case we should close all the hospitals because EVERYTHING they do is unnatural...

Come on it is just as natural as you wearing shoes or pants (assumes and prays you are)
2001-08-01 01:07:06 PM
I love that poster.. I feel bad that I laugh, but i can't help it...

It is almost enough to argue on the internet to see that pict ; )
2001-08-01 01:07:14 PM

hey soupgoblin: people can do what they want with their own body but they shouldn't forget about that person who can't defend of speak up for themselves. and about all that 15% stuff and the embryo's aborting before they're born. hey, that happens it's natural. putting your feet in stirrups and letting someone dig around inside you with a vacum isn't. did you know that every time a volcano errupts it puts more toxic pollutants into the air than the human race has in the last 100 years. why then are people trying to make cars and factories more efficient? fighting pollution is like fighting abortion, except every one agrees pollution is bad. i think this is what we call a double standard

C'mon nate, admit it, you're a satyrist. Noone quotes Rush Limbaugh (that pollution "statistic" is one of his) on Fark ;)

I'll pretend you're not and reply.

Natural. How does this dictate right and wrong? Cutting out a diseased organ isn't "natural". Using a car or a computer isn't "natural". Drinking from a "faucet" in your "house" with "air conditioning" and "electric lighting" comming from "power plants" which burn things "buried under the ground" and turn "magnets" isn't natural. Don't be silly here, thats a baseless definition of morality. Why not define it on the bible next, so that we're all sinners for not sacrificing bulls to god because God likes the smell.

The only issue of "morality" involved is killing a complex being. A glob of 2-week-old cells makes a cricket look like a complex being (honestly).

The volcano statistic is a hilarious one. Its about the ozone layer, not pollution in general. Rush took a volcano, from a biased source for information (dismissing geology publications as "biased") and compared its chlorine to CFCs. Chlorine gets absorbed by water vapor and rained out very quickly. Even not weighted out, it has but the tiniest fraction of ability to break down ozone, compared to CFCs. He can't even get his numbers straight - he claimed "1000 times more chlorine than was ever released". The inaccurate publication he quotes stayed only 570 times the CFCs released in one year. The source for the inaccurate publication was actually talking about a volcano that occurred 700,000 years ago, and was one of the biggest eruptions in recent geological history, an incredibly rare event.

He does this all the time. I still remember when he quoted a research article as saying "There is no hole in the ozone layer this year". In reality, it said that, due to the huge increase in size of the ozone hole last year, and weather patterns this year, its not expected to get any larger this year". Oy, he's such a fraud, and he's listened to... some people use him as their only source of "information"
... a supreme court justice does (Thomas) for that matter.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 01:12:23 PM

now lets take it one step further shall we.
when searching for evidence at a crime scene, investigators often look for DNA evidence. HUMAN DNA. dont give me this "bacteria has DNA crap". Were talking HUMAN CNA. that child from the monent it's concieved has human DNA.

Ah, so if something has human DNA, its a human, right? Ok, than I am 50 million humans. I'm committing mass murder just by sitting here, as some die off. Oh, wait, so we don't care about human DNA being destroyed? Well, perhaps its *unique* DNA that we care about! But, wait, we destroy unique organisms all the time, for food, just by walking and breathing and existing. So, its not unique organisms? Well, why would you all of the sudden combine two "I don't care"'s into an "I care enough to force my beliefs on others!"?

In reality, the only thing that makes killing a human a tragedy is destroying their humanity, their uniqueness of massively complex thoughts. A human born with no brain, people would have no trouble killing that. In fact, hospitals give up when the brain dies. DNA dying is not a tragedy. A complex human mind dying is a tragedy.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 01:14:20 PM
Rush LimpBrain.... oh yeah him.... He is the howard stern of Convervitive Radio, but only 80X as bad. He is jush a dingbat.. I can't beleive people listen to him... It is just sad.... well unless you listen to laugh at him....
2001-08-01 01:20:29 PM
Strider, someone is so going to Hell for that pic, but I'll be there waiting with the warm Budweiser...

2001-08-01 01:22:28 PM
I used to listen to Rush to laugh at him. Then I realized how seriously others took him...scarier than a ghost on a fat chick's love roll on Halloween night.
2001-08-01 01:23:15 PM
Blaming sex education for causing kids to have sex is a week an unfounded argument. The more education somebody has, the better. Do you think just because someone knows about sex they will have it? Would you stab someone because they explained how a blade worked at school?

Ignorance of a problem is not the answer. When I am a parent, I will be sure to openly discuss sex with them. My explanations of it, in a factual manner would make me far more comfortable then having them learn it from books/magazines and friends where the hard realities of disease, pregnancy, emotional traume, etc are glossed over.

I despise the mentality that blames knowledge for causing the problems. Oh no! My kid played a video game and now he will kill everyone!!!!

Inform your children. Let them know the realities of sex, the consequences that can accompany the pleasure. Tell them you prefer they abstain until they are married if that is your wish... But don't assume your beliefs will be theirs. Do not take away the options that may prevent them from experiencing the downsides of sex. Trust them to make their own well-informed opinions. But don't assume that allowing the possibility garuntees it will occur.
2001-08-01 01:25:45 PM
Rush Limbaugh: Talent on Loan from God...

I wonder what the APR is for that? Surely Satan would have given him a better return on his investment. Unless of course he already did.

2001-08-01 01:28:31 PM

Yeah I know... like my poor mis lead Grandmother... Geeeze... She takes everything from him as the gospil... almost... For many a year she tried to change me into a conservitive... but I did not sircumb to the darkside...

"There are always two the master and the apprentice"

Darth Limbaugh

NOTE: It is not a rebublican/demorcrat thing. I just get enough crap, I like to put some back sometimes.
2001-08-01 01:31:37 PM
I was brought up as a conservative.

I supported the republicans in everything that they did, until I started realizing that their ideology ran completely counter to my own.

Looking at voting records can really change your opinion of a party. I used to hate the democrats. After seing their voting records, I am one, in fact, fairly centered.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 01:44:38 PM
Abortion is a rather pointless debate at this time anyway. The Supreme Court in all odds will not overturn Roe v Wade in our lifetimes, even with a conservative court (which it is now). The stability and power of the Supreme Court lies in its setting precedent and then sticking to it. It takes a hell of a lot to get them to overturn an outstanding decision. Although with both political poles switching sides in their election decision, maybe they are not so stable anymore afterall. Well, never mind then...
2001-08-01 01:48:48 PM
Mme. : Mother Nature is NEVER fair - she is interested only in winning - and always does.
2001-08-01 02:00:17 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about the overturn of Roe v. Wade. Its been 5:4 each time, and look who stands to appoint supreme court justices....

At least OConnor is staying around so she can be made one of the least qualified Chief Justices in history. I think I mentioned this before, just wait for this one. Latino republican-loyalist such as Garza with a poor court record added to the court and Oconnor to become the first woman supreme court justice, despite her record (she's only staying on to save her reputation - she was looking to retire, and got mad at her TV when it looked like Gore was going to win). Despite the fact that both justices are really unqualified for their respective positions, how can the democrats oppose that and not die in PR?

Guess what: Garza is only strong-spoken on one issue: you guessed it, Roe v. Wade.

There's a few other potential Latino candidates who have been considered, but still... that would be a sickineng coup - not so much for the party loyalty issue, everyone does that, but for the qualifications alone.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 02:03:32 PM
it's interesting to point out that ms. roe is now a christian who strongly opposes abortion.

but enough about that. here's the solution. all males get a vasectomy at birth and when they get married then and only then can they untie it or unclamp it or whatever they do.
2001-08-01 02:04:16 PM
I am sooo scared about the supreme court thing...
2001-08-01 02:09:42 PM

"ms. roe is now a christian who strongly opposes abortion. "

Are you trying to say being a Christain beens you have to oppose abortion?

I hope not... because it is not true... I am a Christain, and I support the choice of a women to choose.....

and isntead of the vasectomy why don't we just insert chips in to peoples brains that shocks them everytime the think about having sex... I know you where joking alteast I hope you where....
2001-08-01 02:11:24 PM
Rei, et al

No, teen pregnancy WAS lower. Take a sample in any town in the U.S. (yes, even NYC). Ask 100 50-year-olds how many young ladies in their high school (any grade) were pregnant. You're likely to here none, one or two. As a 14-15 year old how many teen pregnancies there are at his/her school. You're likely to here 20+. I know simply at the high school I went to, there were 3 pregnancies while I was there. I know for a fact that last year there were 12.

It's common sense, rei. Teen pregnancies are much higher than even 15 years ago. However, I will admit that teen pregnancy has fallen in the last 5 years or so, but it's still much higher than in the 50's, for example.

As for abortion and the rape/incest case. I usually just try to avoid this subject. If our society got to the point where we only did abortions for rape and incest, I would probably shut up, but I still wouldn't feel like it was the right thing.

My usual argument to abortion only in these cases are: How many pregnancies are caused by these crimes? If they're a lot, then don't we have a rape and incest problem, not a pregnancy problem?

Also, why is it the childs fault that an adult committed a crime? Should we kill a child whose mother was raped? I mean, that child will be mentally scared for the rest of his/her life, shouldn't we put them out of their misery?

From a completely non-religious point of view, I think we, as humans, have a right to support all other humans and their basic rights (such as life!). Murder is a crime universally.

No human has the right to take any other human's life. Likewise, we must protect the weak who are unable to protect themselves. This involves infants, elderly, mentally disabled, coma patients, etc. Especially the
unborn (essentially infants). They are seperate individuals (as they have different DNA from their mother, they are, by definition, seperate human beings) and therefore should be afforded the rights of any other individual in this country or the world.
2001-08-01 02:22:31 PM

Just a few things with your so wonderful made stats im sure Rei will show me up but here are some of my explantions for those stats...

1) 50 year olds.. I still think you would get about 5% My parents are about that old and they had people in there highschool who where pregnet...

2) School sized are so much bigger then they where 50 years ago. Many 50-60 year olds went to Elementry school in a one room school house.. Okie lets think here... 18 people in the whole school the chances are PRETTY low by any % of someone getting pregnet.

3) Okie so when HS came around there where large #'s but not the #'s they had at that time... It was more acceptable to drop out of school then. Many did not go pas 8th grade. I am not saying a whole lot but many of the teen pregancys I see anymore would have dropped out of school sooner 50 years ago.

4)So with the facts that the schools where smaller, higher drop-outs, and the fact that if one knew they where pregnet back then they where more lickly to drop out before it became to noticable...

You have to look at more then #'s you have to look at percentages...

One pregnet person 50 years ago would be seen by maybe 50 people or 100 or some # like that... Now in the OVER SIZED schools. of 1.5K or so... One pregnet person is seen by well a good chunk of them.. SO that really misses up these stats, because the same amount or even less pregnacies would cause higher values under your system.. So although it may be true what you get back... The results are unconslusive.
2001-08-01 02:22:51 PM
Rei -

Take it easy, keep breathing IGNORE Daz, or major arteries will start popping.
2001-08-01 02:23:42 PM
"it's interesting to point out that ms. roe is now a christian who strongly opposes abortion."

I think Roe is & was only interested in the attention. If you have ever heard her interviewed, she is not a bright person. Dim. I am sure it drove her crazy that her name is attached to this court case but the pro-choice people didn't want her talking to the press.
2001-08-01 02:26:09 PM
Shut up Clanjade, you are only making matters worse. Rei needs peace and quiet in order to regroup/recover: One room schools indeed!
2001-08-01 02:28:40 PM
Heh... only truth... just stating the flaws in his arguement..

My dad spent is k-5th grade in a one room schoolhouse... It is just the plain truth.... It was just to show that schools where alot smaller.
2001-08-01 02:36:45 PM

LAF :) Nate, nate, nate, where do you hear these things? First the rush quote about volcanoes, and now this "Ms Roe now opposes abortion". Roe means "egg", silly :) It was an alias for one of the people involved (wade was a district attorney). Also involved in the case were the "Does" - think that was their real name too?

I suggest you go back and try to find out what you meant to say there.

No, teen pregnancy WAS lower. Take a sample in any town in the U.S. (yes, even NYC). Ask 100 50-year-olds how many young ladies in their high school (any grade) were pregnant.

You know, that's about as statistically invalid as you could get :) Take a stat class, and come back later. "Its common sense"? So was the world being round, but its not true. To most people, its common sense that the US is getting more violent. Its not, look at *real* stats. If you don't understand statistics, don't debate with them.

Respond to my post at 08-01-01 01:12:23 PM, and then come back to me.

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 02:40:48 PM
I know there was somethng about REI always being right (so far). *Though was only one from Iowa* *gives the secret corncob handshake*
2001-08-01 02:46:44 PM
I know the Lady's name isn't "Roe" but this lady did convert like Nate007. But what Nate007 doesn't seem to understand is that it was NEVER about this single woman. "Roe" could have been male & played football but Roe represents all women and their ability to choose.
2001-08-01 02:47:47 PM
Ahhh, if only George I and Barbara had practiced a little more abstinence
2001-08-01 02:57:20 PM
OK, bottom line:

Sex ed classes have been *statistically proven* to reduce teen pregnancy rates. Abstinece-only classes studied under the same circumstances have been shown to have no effect.

So the real question here is this:Does Bush want to reduce teen pregnancy, or is he trying to satisfy elements in the christian right and 'save souls' along the way? Either way, his current plan doesn't work :P

2001-08-01 03:01:51 PM
Wait till Dubya's little cock hungry slut daughters have some frat boys blow their load in them.
2001-08-01 03:05:20 PM
okay lets get some things straight. i'm a christian, and i think abortion isn't that bad. This is because when the bible says God created adam it says he breathed life into him. therefore, when a baby is born, it is "alive" when it takes it's first breath.
2001-08-01 03:05:44 PM
"Roe" was Norma McCorvey. A really admirable christian, mind you, who converted just a year after writing "I Am Roe", and now is a forerunner in a white supremacists movement that believes that vaccines are a method of bioterrorism. She makes good money for her speaking engagements, too. Reminds me a lot of the spokesman for Ex-Gay, who's getting paid 6 figures for being an "ex gay", despite being seen in gay bars since then. Married to an "ex lesbian", who has never had a relationship with a woman before ;)

-= rei =-
2001-08-01 03:11:31 PM
People accaully believe that vaccines are a method of bioterrorism? Wow some people.....

I am amazed everyday at the stupiedity of some people
2001-08-01 03:12:25 PM
A bush holding it in his hand is better than a bush sticking it in a bird
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