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(Yahoo)   Boston and Minnesota finalizing deal to send Johan Santana to the Red Sox, probably Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury to the Twins   (sports.yahoo.com) divider line 186
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1688 clicks; posted to Sports » on 05 Dec 2007 at 10:00 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-12-05 12:38:18 PM

//at least they're paying some top money for good younger talent though, and not over the hill, inflated contracts (with egos to match)


Aren't you just about to trade for a pitcher who will ask for one of the biggest pitching contracts in history and is on the downside of his career?
 
2007-12-05 12:43:20 PM
I guess Adam Jones & Co. weren't enough for the Twins...

/Heard the Mariners are going after Ben Sheets now!
 
2007-12-05 12:43:54 PM
HulkHands [TotalFark] Quote 2007-12-05 10:57:21 AM
The Dynamite Monkey: Are you forgetting the $150M extension the sox wil need to give Santana to make it happen?

The Giants could afford it if they didn't blow their wad on Zito. The Angels could afford it now. The Dodgers could afford it. Are you saying all of these teams are now the Yankees?


Are those teams already the best teams in baseball before adding another ace pitcher? Are those teams payrolls well above any other team not named the Yankees?
 
2007-12-05 12:50:57 PM
Bill Frist: //at least they're paying some top money for good younger talent though, and not over the hill, inflated contracts (with egos to match)

Aren't you just about to trade for a pitcher who will ask for one of the biggest pitching contracts in history and is on the downside of his career?


see, I keep hearing about how he's on his downside -- he's 28!

he got banged around last year, true - but the W/L #'s cannot be totally put on him

plus, why not keep the momentum going with this team? you have to admit that they would have a crazy rotation if they land him

/after the whole Clemens-Duquette debacle, I just wait until a guy really starts to wear down before calling him done
 
2007-12-05 12:53:05 PM
Luthiel: How exactly is this a Yankees-esque move? If the Sox were shelling out an enormous sum to grab Santana as a free agent, then I could see the comparison, but this is a trade. If this goes through, it's an example of the Sox using prospects from the farm system (plus Crisp) to get a good player, not the Sox flexing their financial muscle a la Steinbrenner.

There's a reason only a handful of teams were ever in the running, and those teams were the "usual suspects" (also including NYM, LAD, LAA and SEA). The trade is not just whatever prospects for Santana... clearly the talent they're giving up is not enough. The trade is the prospects plus a 72-hour window to negotiate a $100m+ contract. Tampa Bay, for example, could easily have topped Boston's offer talent-wise (for instance, starting with Delmon Young in this trade rather than moving him for Garza); and Milwaukee has a huge amount of young talent; but those teams weren't about to offer the contract extension.

The only fault I find with the statement that the Red Sox have become the Yankees is that it ignores the fact that the Red Sox have always been just like the Yankees. There's nothing new here.

/still hoping the Mariners can swoop in
//we got Jones, Clement, Morrow, Balentien -- better talent than what Boston is offering!
///would even trade Carlos Triunfel if I had to
 
2007-12-05 12:53:12 PM
The Dynamite Monkey: if there are Twins fans out there: How do you feel about this trade vs. the one the yanks were offering?

As a Twins fan I'd rather have the Sox deal, but Ellsbury has to be part of it. We need hitting much more than we need young pitchers. We've got young pitchers to spare, which is why trading away Matt Garza to get Delmon Young didn't bother me. I think the upside to Ellsbury is greater than with Melky so that why I hope the Twins deal Santana to the Sox. But that Yankees deal is not a bad consolation.

Once the Santana trade happens, all we need to do is trade Joe Nathan for a quality third baseman and we'll be set to contend in 2-3 years.
 
2007-12-05 12:53:16 PM

see, I keep hearing about how he's on his downside -- he's 28!


Make no mistake, he is a great pitcher and the deal is probably well worth it for the Sox.

However, someone who is 28 and asking for the largest pitcher contract in history is not "younger talent" being bought with smart money instead of "inflated contracts."

So again, I'm not dissing hte trade at all or Sanatana. But at 28 he is not a young player and at the largest contract ever this is about as much of a "yankees move" as you can get.
 
2007-12-05 12:54:26 PM
priestrape: Of course it is. Why do you think Florida is trading them? Because they know they either can't afford them now or in the near future. Detroit can.

Well, slow down. There's a huge difference between "can't afford them" and "don't want to afford them."

Question of the day: Is the Marlins payroll going to clear $10 million next year?
 
2007-12-05 12:57:04 PM
overheard in mayfair: If the Twins keep Santana for this year and offer him arbitration before he splits for big coin, they get two high draft picks. It stands to reason that they would want two guys they couldn't get with high draft picks in return. The Yankees are offering exactly one: Hughes. Melky doesn't qualify; you can get what he does a bunch of different places besides relatively high in the amateur draft.

This is true, and partially why a deal hasn't happened yet.

But don't forget, it's not like Santana is making $450,000... he's gonna have to be paid $13.5M if he stays.

Personally, I think the Twins need to keep him and have him pitch the opener in the new stadium.
 
2007-12-05 12:59:03 PM
Daniels: Well, slow down. There's a huge difference between "can't afford them" and "don't want to afford them."

Good point. You can say the same thing about the Twins, who are owned by a multi-billionaire
 
2007-12-05 01:00:06 PM
The notion that the Sox 'don't need Santana' is nuts. It is just as crazy to say 'the Sox shouldn't bother if the Yankees aren't involved'. It would be like saying that a 28 year old is 'on the downside of his career'.

Cripes, I only wish that Hansen still had some value, he would make a great throw in...too bad sucking for 3 straight years in March doesn't up your value. For those who don't remember, Hansen was our top prospect for years. Yes, prospects are a good thing but they rarely live up their billing and if they can be traded high for a proven commodity than that justifies their value. Heck, up until last March Hansen still had some value. Now he is just looked at as guy who has taken too long to develop and is too old to have any real hope for.

Go back two years, maybe a year even, and you will have Sox fans saying, 'You can't trade Hansen! He is the future!'
 
2007-12-05 01:00:59 PM
priestrape: Daniels: Well, slow down. There's a huge difference between "can't afford them" and "don't want to afford them."

Good point. You can say the same thing about the Twins, who are owned by a multi-billionaire


yes. needs to be repeated.

FTFA:
"We have no payroll constraints. Our issues aren't payroll right now," Twins general manager Bill Smith said. "Some of it is more length. Length of contract is an issue. Some things around groundbreaking issues. I'd just as soon leave it at that."

huh?
 
2007-12-05 01:04:41 PM
Super Chronic:

/still hoping the Mariners can swoop in
//we got Jones, Clement, Morrow, Balentien -- better talent than what Boston is offering!
///would even trade Carlos Triunfel if I had to


I'd toss in Tuiasosopo as well, but the prospect of them going after/getting Ben Sheets is still a bright spot :)
 
2007-12-05 01:07:39 PM
The Dynamite Monkey: Personally, I think the Twins need to keep him and have him pitch the opener in the new stadium.

That's what Liriano is for. Heck, by the time the new stadium opens, we'll have a lot of quality homegrown pitching talent: Glen Perkins, Kevin Slowey, Nick Blackburn, Brian Duensing, Anthony Swarzak, and maybe some other young pitchers that we pick up in a Santana trade.
 
2007-12-05 01:09:24 PM
GimpyNip: Go back two years, maybe a year even, and you will have Sox fans saying, 'You can't trade Hansen! He is the future!'

or

"You can't trade Brian Rose or Carl Pavano! They're our future!"

or Kevin Morton. Or Lee Tinsley. Or Donnie Sadler, etc., etc.

For every one that gets away that you wish you could undo (Bagwell....Schilling), there are 30 potential stars that never amount to shiat.
 
2007-12-05 01:18:21 PM
Yea, news most places says that almost all of the trades rumored or announced since and including the Tigers-Marlins deal are all on hold and GMs may be going home. Andrew Miller hasn't heard anything and neither have his agents.

Methinks that a certain upcoming steroid report is coming...
 
2007-12-05 01:22:16 PM
drewrag: 12:15 p.m., from Peter Gammons
• Don't expect to see a Twins-Red Sox or Twins-Yankees whopper. The sense is now that Minnesota will hold onto Johan Santana.


24 hours ago, the Marlins told Peter "Seperated at birth from George Plimpton" Gammons that the Cabrera-and-Dontrelle-to-Detroit chatter wasn't serious.

Just sayin'.

/hope the Yankees hold firm. Everyone said getting A-Rod guaranteed the Yankees multiple AL pennants. How did that work out? Hold on to Hughes, Son of Fat Ass, please.
 
2007-12-05 01:31:39 PM
at first i was suprised to hear that the sox would part w/ ellsbury. then i heard about jacoby hiring scott boras.


/now it all makes sense
//scott boras = what is wrong w/ professional sports
///he's at least part of the problem
 
2007-12-05 01:33:46 PM
From the Newark Star-Ledger's Ed Price (12:44 p.m.): "A baseball official close to Boston management, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to disclose information, confirmed the Red Sox and Twins today are continuing to negotiate on players in a possible deal. And, the official said, the Red Sox are not making offers as if there is still competition for Santana. The official said that opposed to 24 hours earlier -- when the Red Sox were waiting to hear back from the Twins -- the teams are engaged, and that increases the likelihood of a deal. And while one rumor had the deal in trouble because Minnesota learned Boston outfielder Jacoby Ellsbury just switched agents to Scott Boras, the official said the Twins are still interested in Ellsbury."
 
2007-12-05 01:45:21 PM
I think the biggest insult to the Twins fans is the Twins' owner, Mr. Pohlad (or as me and some friends call him, PooHead) -- After all, he is listed by Forbes as the richest owner of a MLB team (3.1 billion dollars IIRC). A stark contrast to Kauffman who would pony up money from his own pocket to keep stars in the Royals organization.

It is no wonder that Ryan decided to step down as a GM considering all his efforts to make the Twins competitive enough to win another WS were normally scuttled down by Pohlad because of his reluctance to increase the payroll. In my opinion, its the same case with Schuerholz who kept the Braves in the race for the longest time in spite of a shrinking payroll year after year.

/Is a Red Sox fan but became a baseball fan in the first place thanks to the 91' WS
/Has a Puckett Jersey, and can't wait to buy a Red Sox/Santana jersey for next year.
 
2007-12-05 01:47:05 PM

/Is a Red Sox fan but became a baseball fan in the first place thanks to the 91' WS


A bandwagon Red Sox fan, you don't say...
 
2007-12-05 01:47:28 PM
I'm a Sox fan. While I think it would be great to have a pitcher like Santana, I really hope the deal doesn't get done.

Flat out, I don't think he's worth it. What will Santana bring over someone like Lester? 4-6 more wins provided the bullpen doesn't implode? For $20 million a year? That may or may not be able to put you into the playoffs. Granted, once there, I can't see anyone beating that lineup of pitchers - and that's probably his biggest value.

Baseball salaries are insane. Perpetuating it doesn't help anybody.
 
2007-12-05 01:57:38 PM
ThatGuyGreg: We interrupt this imminent flamewar for a special announcement:

The Boston Red Sox are the new New York Yankees.

We now return you to your flamewar, already in progress.


Worth repeating.
 
2007-12-05 01:58:59 PM
Bill Frist:A bandwagon Red Sox fan, you don't say...

I've been a Red Sox fan since 1998... Been to Fenway several times and gone to several of their games on the road as well, been hanging out with the sons of sam horn' tailgate events on the road as well, I have many autographed memorabilia signed by the players 'emselves -- including a baseball signed by Cesar Crespo (its a shame he never panned out). Seriously, shut up if you don't know what you're talking bout.
 
2007-12-05 01:59:37 PM
Oh yeah, and I did all that well before the '04 WS
 
2007-12-05 02:05:39 PM
Dinobot: I've been a Red Sox fan since 1998

Oh you'd better duck...
 
2007-12-05 02:08:32 PM
All the way since 1998?
You mean right when they started their string of post-season appearances? What a coincidence. But oh, you went to "several" games, you must be tried and true.

How much did your pink hat cost on ebay?
 
2007-12-05 02:12:20 PM
Bill Frist: /Is a Red Sox fan but became a baseball fan in the first place thanks to the 91' WS

A bandwagon Red Sox fan, you don't say...


Heh. To hear people on Fark tell it, no Boston team had any fans before 2001.
 
2007-12-05 02:13:24 PM
better duck? Hey... before 1998 I was mostly a Braves fan though I was also following the Red Sox, but not that closely, it was the trade the Red Sox did for Pedro Martinez that converted me into a full-blown Red Sox fan

Is it really that bad for me to say that I became an ardent Red Sox fan thanks to a trade? I was born in Texas not in Massachusetts so I was not born into the Red Sox Nation, yet ever since I truly became a fan I've gone to Fenway on several occasions and I follow the team and the offseason really closely, is it really that bad? At least I'm being honest... and I actually hate the pink hats.
 
2007-12-05 02:14:38 PM
Go Rays!!

The way things are going...they will always be at the bottom of the division.

Fark the Sox and the Yankees
 
2007-12-05 02:16:15 PM
The Dynamite Monkey:
Really? Lester and Crisp?

Wow, that is what I call a bargain.


Its not just Lester and Crisp. Also includes two of our top prospects, one SS and one P (I think). And it could include even more than that in the form of a draft pick and/or pitching prospect.

The Red Sox have said EITHER Lester or Ellsbury but not both. I think its a ploy by the sox to keep him, because its doubtful (IMO) that the Twins would give away a left handed starting pitcher without getting one in return.
 
2007-12-05 02:17:04 PM
Dinobot: Seriously, shut up if you don't know what you're talking bout.

I wouldn't let Bill Frist get to you. I think he's a Cowboys fan.

And I think he still thinks that the Red Sox stole the "Nation" idea from the Riders/Steelers even though it was coined in the Boston Globe in a column about split allegiances in Connecticut when it comes to sports. It was "Yankees Country" and "Red Sox Nation."
 
2007-12-05 02:19:34 PM
Dinobot: Is it really that bad for me to say that I became an ardent Red Sox fan thanks to a trade? I was born in Texas not in Massachusetts so I was not born into the Red Sox Nation, yet ever since I truly became a fan I've gone to Fenway on several occasions and I follow the team and the offseason really closely, is it really that bad? At least I'm being honest... and I actually hate the pink hats.

I became a fan in 1999, because I was 14 at the time and finally decided to follow baseball (it was generally considered boring by my point of view before then). I remember buying a Pedro Martinez rookie card after the All-Star game in Fenway.

And I like pink hats because the influx of money lets the Red Sox spend money - even though that's evil!
 
2007-12-05 02:20:32 PM
Cowboys fan? Please.

Also, the term was used by the Raiders and Steelers bbefore the Sox used it. Obviously the columnist stole the term, dude. The fact that you think because a columnist first called it the Sox Nation means it must be an original idea is too laughable to take seriously.
 
2007-12-05 02:21:08 PM
I mean a sports columnist, who ever heard of one being anything lesss than stunningly original...
 
2007-12-05 02:21:37 PM
Damn it, I already missed out on the whole thing!
 
2007-12-05 02:24:18 PM
Dinobot Quote 2007-12-05 02:13:24 PM
better duck? Hey... before 1998 I was mostly a Braves fan though I was also following the Red Sox, but not that closely, it was the trade the Red Sox did for Pedro Martinez that converted me into a full-blown Red Sox fan


You started out as a Twins fan in the early 90s, then you became a Braves fan in the mid 90s but jumped ship when the Sox got good again and began going to the post season regularly.

I mean, who on earth could call you a bandwagon fan with that stellar resume.

Be proud of your bandwagoning, but don't pretend...
 
2007-12-05 02:28:24 PM
Bill, does it really make me less of a fan because I did not have the Red Sox as my one and only team to follow before 1998?

Does that mean if I want to be considered a fan by you I shoulda been born in Massachusetts and gone to my first Red Sox game by the time I was 6 months old?

I said the 91 WS got me interested in baseball overall, and the Braves were the team I really looked up to during my childhood in Texas as I loved their pitching staff (Glavine, Smoltz, Avery and later Maddux) - yet I was following the Red Sox as well but not as closely as the Braves during that time...
 
2007-12-05 02:30:20 PM
Bill Frist: Also, the term was used by the Raiders and Steelers bbefore the Sox used it. Obviously the columnist stole the term, dude.

Then why didn't he just say so? It was a 1986 fluff piece about Connecticut sports followers, and "Nation" is a rather obvious synonym of "Country."
 
2007-12-05 02:41:29 PM
Dinobot: Bill, does it really make me less of a fan because I did not have the Red Sox as my one and only team to follow before 1998?

No, it makes you a bandwagon fan. You started rooting for the team when they started winning.

There's nothing WRONG with that, IMO, but there's something wrong with refusing to acknowledge it.
 
2007-12-05 02:41:38 PM
So i'm thinking of becoming a Tigers fan, i was leaning towards the Red Sox since the whole WS thing, but this Willis/Miggy trade has me going Tigers.

Thoughts?
 
2007-12-05 02:46:27 PM
4NSpy: So i'm thinking of becoming a Tigers fan, i was leaning towards the Red Sox since the whole WS thing, but this Willis/Miggy trade has me going Tigers.

Thoughts?


who was your team before?
 
2007-12-05 02:51:05 PM
4NSpy: So i'm thinking of becoming a Tigers fan, i was leaning towards the Red Sox since the whole WS thing, but this Willis/Miggy trade has me going Tigers.

Thoughts?


Do Tiger hats come in pink?
 
2007-12-05 02:56:46 PM
The best part of Fark is seeing the one of two people in every thread who answer sarcastic questions...

Oh, and Bill Frist doesn't have a favorite team, he just hates everything about Boston and Chicago for whatever reason.
 
2007-12-05 02:56:46 PM
4NSpy: Thoughts?

You are gay.
 
2007-12-05 02:57:44 PM
I was surprised at a) how much Hank Steinbrenner has taken over the teams off season moves (where is Cashman?) and b) how public he's been about them, which I don't think helps his cause.


/and the thread devolves to "real fan" arguments! surprise surprise.
 
2007-12-05 03:01:05 PM
Bill Frist: Cowboys fan? Please.

Also, the term was used by the Raiders and Steelers bbefore the Sox used it. Obviously the columnist stole the term, dude. The fact that you think because a columnist first called it the Sox Nation means it must be an original idea is too laughable to take seriously.


The fact that anyone considers this question debate-worthy is too laughable to take seriously. Who gives a damn whether or not the Sox used it first?
 
2007-12-05 03:04:25 PM
Larry, you seem to think I became a fan towards the end of the 1998 season as they were aiming to clinch the wild card - when it was the mere presence of Pedro Martinez in the rotation that actually lured me since the beginning. By your logic, I woulda been a fan of an AL West team between the '00 season and the '02 season.

Ironically, I'd understand the label if I had became a fan after '04 but that wasn't the case.
 
2007-12-05 03:05:14 PM
Cleveland-Steamer: I was surprised am delighted at a) how much Hank Steinbrenner has taken over the teams off season moves (where is Cashman?) and b) how public he's been about them, which I don't think helps his cause. He's a complete trainwreck!

/not to put words in your mouth
//Hank makes me giddy
 
2007-12-05 03:07:36 PM
GimpyNip:
Oh, and Bill Frist doesn't have a favorite team, he just hates everything about Boston and Chicago for whatever reason.


I think Tom Brady pees in his cornflakes every morning.
 
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