Richard M Nixon: Including the Bible and the Quran is pandering self -defeating nonsense. Good books for an Athiest tree:

A Brief History of Time
Origin of Species
Joy of Sex
Tropic of Cancer
The Naked Ape
Hell, put To Kill a Mockingbird up there, anything but The farking Bible or The damned Quran...

Don't get me wrong as an atheist I could still care less about the inclusion of an athiest display by the Christmas tree but if you're gonna do it, it seems silly to put the Bible up there.
I think the Christians got that one covered.

Just add all books by Robert Anton Wilson and be done with it, may his noodly appendage bless his sole.

Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

Denis Diderot (some dead French Philosophe )

I have no problem with this, as a church-going atheist (no, really). I attend a local Unitarian church, where I can mingle among Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, Jews, Pagans, and lots of other folks. The way I see it, religions wouldn't be religions unless they had something of value to offer their adherents. I choose to look at them all, separate the wheat from the chaff, and take what good I can from each of them, all within the framework of my rationalist, atheist path. These guys may be doing that, or they may be simply following municipal guidelines that dictate (properly so) that any pertinent holiday display include examples of many traditions and religions, so as not to give the impression of government-sponsored partisanship.

BillyBob_The_Magnificent: Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

Denis Diderot (some dead French Philosophe )

I always thought tattoos where a bad idea. But I'm definitely getting that put on my bulging bicep. I might have to make it a bit more wordy just for scale.

Mars232:
//Solipsism FTW

Sorry about the long post; Mars232, this response is for you.

I agree that solipsism is an entirely defensible view. It's true that one can have no direct knowledge of anything that isn't happening within one's own mind. (I almost said something about chemical processes in the brain, but in fact, we can't even say whether our physical forms have any substantive reality.)

///all other forms of "religion" are bunk

Here's where we differ. If you accept that solipsism is defensible, then it takes an enormous leap of faith to believe that the entire world you live in isn't merely an hallucination, perceptible only to you. Hell, as far as you can REALLY know, I'm a figment of your glorious imagination, and vice versa.

So, since the subjective "reality" of all experience is decidedly unknowable, we must on faith extend our belief systems to include "others" who experience the world in the same manner we do.

Where you draw the line in what you believe in is tricky and somewhat arbitrary. In my opinion, if you claim to have an encounter with a "supreme being" or whatever you want to call, I'm in no place to say you didn't. I think some "religions" probably contain kernels of truth.

IMHO, the militant atheism we encounter in these threads is every bit as stupid and pathetic as radical forms of religion. When I encounter atheists or "religious" people alike, I respect their views, I don't tell them they're stupid, and I certainly don't tell them I think I know what's right. Because there's simply no way I can be certain that my personal views are correct. And neither can you.

What do you think?

/Solipsism FTW, indeed.

Born2late: The Catholics Romans had it right a long time ago: include all religions and then claim that mixture is the one true religion.

Next time, just don't take bribes to get into heaven. That was bad form.

Spirituality is generic. Religion is specific.

True, Catholicism (and by natural extension protestants) just adapted the religious practices and beliefs of others. But it was more of Borg like assimilation designed too convert natives.

The Roman Empire however was the first major political structure too have free religion. They didn't give 2 shiats what you believed in as long as you payed your taxes.

That holiday display could use some meatballs, maybe some alfredo sauce...

/science damn you, free thought society!

In order to be able to fully defend yourself as an athiest, it seems to me that being able to validly argue your point involves understanding the text of the other party. Thus, the books on the tree make sense. Especially since most athiests that I know appreciate the Bible as literature, and not a holy book. Now, while I'm Christian (confirmed and everything), I can see the athiests wanting to appreciate a time of year for the warm and fuzzy as much as anyone else. Happy Book Tree Holiday!

zdamort: fred and steve's steakhouse: 100 years from now we'll be praying 5 times a day to Mecca or off with your head....

In 100 years, I'll be dead.

...but he'll still be stupid.

/Probably dead too.
//I'm pretty sure stupid is immortal.

FTA: This fall, the commissioners approved a policy that allows any group to put up a seasonal display if it meets design, insurance and safety requirements.

During any season or just the Christmas one?

Good job, Philly atheists.

You realize, they're playing a specific game here with the fundies, and I love it. If they hang the bible on their tree, no god-fearing christian would ever consider taking it down. In turn, they have no reason to dissagree.

Quite well played. I'm a fan.

Hmmm... the should have called it "Tree of Theories" and let it go at that. That way, whatever book they put up there will actually belong.

/Yeah, it's true. I got nuthin'

They planted marijuana on the courthouse lawn, did they?

That ain't knowledge.

A real Tree of Knowledge would have like, the Encyclopedia Britannica hanging from it.
Therefore, it'd have to be an oak.

It would appear that a belief in nothing makes a person feel a little empty inside especially around the holidays. It would seem that these atheist groups are developing a little brother complex always wanting to be included in the fun and joy of adult activities. A Christmas Tree and a Menorah do not mock other belief systems they simply celebrate their own sacred events. The tree of knowledge, with the name itself being a direct reference from the Bible and adorned with ornaments like "Why I Am Not a Christian" is only a poor attempt to belittle, mock, and disrespect the cherished beliefs of others. What do atheists fear that causes them to lash out on Jews and Christians in what appears to be a tasteless gesture showing a lazy creative effort. Atheism is a lack of belief, it requires no study, no effort and no faith. There is nothing to worship, nothing to adhere to, and therefore nothing to celebrate. If anything it shows pettiness and insecurity from a group that is always trying to flaunt its evolved sense of understanding.


/Forshame

notzing!!

ze gockles, zey do notzing!!

/FUKKK Xmass

Jeremiah 10:1-4

10:1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
10:2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
10:3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

So long as the Bible forbids it, it's probably good fun, so Christmas tree are fine. Though, the Koran and Bible in the display? Weak. How about a copy of Aesop's fables, better lessons and it doesn't condone slavery and genocide.

Littledogg:

Excellent points, but you're being a touch too judgmental. I think the major malfunction with militant atheists is that they want their views to be respected in a country where they are the vast minority.

The best point you made is that one shouldn't mock others' beliefs. I think the atheist backlash is attributable to the persecution they feel they encounter at the hands of Christians who never truly took the whole, "Judge not, etc." business to heart. Sadly, fundamental Christians are among the most judgmental people I've ever met.

After so many times being told they're wrong, one might expect such a response from atheists. So true Christianity should understand that and respond with love, not anger.

That said, the thing that amuses me the most is that atheists tend to come across like Fredo Corleone in Godfather II, when he says to Michael, "I'm smart! Not like everybody says... I'm smart and I want respect!"

Then again, Fredo went out right after saying a "Hail Mary." So he probably went to heaven.

/Just kidding, you crazy atheists, you.

Unhip1: That ain't knowledge.

A real Tree of Knowledge would have like, the Encyclopedia Britannica hanging from it.
Therefore, it'd have to be an oak.

HA! Comedy gold. Although it would have been comedy platinum if you left the oak thing off the end.


/Not that funny myself
//Mere ivory tower comedy analysis

I figure they have the 'Holy Books' on there so some asshat doesn't try to burn it the first night. It should also have Grimm's Fairytales for the complete set, though.

How much time till Muslims start rioting, burning and killing because 'the west defaced Quran'?

"Most atheists I know, myself included, advocate the inclusion of world religion classes"

Nothing stops people from being religious betetr than having them actually read their holy book and learn about its history.

You could always claim you worshipped Priapus, and hang brightly coloured plastic penises on it. See how long the tree stayed up then.

/ Won't someone please think of the children?
// Not like that, you pervert.

TFA headline did say Erect uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh.

Corpus Delecti: ....It's amazing to me how many Farkers claim to embrace "pure science", but then spend all of their time demonstrating that they have no idea how Mankind's struggle to understand the universe around him actually began. But then, most Farkers use Religion and Atheism the same way that most other people use professional football: as a reason to insult total strangers for completely idiotic reasons.

Rarely do we read such an articulate response as this on Fark.

See that it doesn't happen again.

Littledogg 2007-12-02 04:55:42 AM
It would appear that a belief in nothing makes a person feel a little empty inside especially around the holidays.

Nope, not at all. Business as usual for me and mine. In fact we all love it as we can pick up the the lucrative holiday shifts at triple time.

Dubya's_Coke_Dealer
Nothing stops people from being religious better than having them actually read their holy book and learn about its history.

True... but generally speaking, the majority of those people that actually want to study and learn about the history are already not religious. I notice that a lot of people that are self-righteous (yes, that includes many atheists) think they already know everything they need to about their belief systems.

rackrent: Bucky Katt: where's the damn Festivus Pole?

Not one, but two!

I have no idea what Festivus is, but if you're going to put up a holiday pole, you should have it properly secured to the floor so it won't fall over when your holiday stripper is dancing around it.

brian7dog:we can pick up the the lucrative holiday shifts at triple time
So it's not that you believe in nothing, but worship the great overlord "Greenback" instead, right?

Littledogg: It would appear that a belief in nothing makes a person feel a little empty inside especially around the holidays.


The only emptiness I feel inside during the holidays is from the self-inflicted lobotomy after hearing Christmas music for two straight months and seeing decorations out in October.

The Eradicator: I think the major malfunction with militant atheists is that they want their views to be respected in a country where they are the vast minority.

Militant? Like "flying airliners into skyscrapers" militant? Or like "Ha ha. Religion is stupid" militant?
Are they the same?
Discuss.

As an atheist I think part of being knowledgeable is being familiar with various religious beliefs. Many Christians make the incorrect assumption that atheists are offended by the Bible. We may find it silly, but not offensive (at least I don't).

It is, if fact, the religious folks who generally harbor contempt for other beliefs.

Best Decoration Ever.

This is being done in VERY RED Chester County, PA, so the atheist display will be the first to be defaced or destroyed by the so-called Christians.

Or stupid drunk college kids. Either one.

The Eradicator: I agree that solipsism is an entirely defensible view. It's true that one can have no direct knowledge of anything that isn't happening within one's own mind. (I almost said something about chemical processes in the brain, but in fact, we can't even say whether our physical forms have any substantive reality.)

Not really. Defensible views usually have an answer to "what practical good does it do to believe this?" Solipsism serves no practical purpose except as a Cartesian form of mental masturbation, which is about all Descartes was good for philosophically.

Littledogg: It would appear that a belief in nothing makes a person feel a little empty inside especially around the holidays.

Not really.

It would seem that these atheist groups are developing a little brother complex always wanting to be included in the fun and joy of adult activities. A Christmas Tree and a Menorah do not mock other belief systems they simply celebrate their own sacred events.

Hardly. We're not claiming they mock anyone's belief. Hell, no one is saying that. We're just claiming that only an X-mas tree and a Menorah are exclusionary, and that's unconstitutional. This isn't a little brother complex, this is a legitimate complaint from a legitimate minority group. Or do you still want black people to drink from seperate water fountains and women to not be able to vote?

"Why I Am Not a Christian" is only a poor attempt to belittle, mock, and disrespect the cherished beliefs of others.

You haven't read it, or else you'd know how dumb and wrong that statement is. The title is an accurate description.

What do atheists fear that causes them to lash out on Jews and Christians in what appears to be a tasteless gesture showing a lazy creative effort.

Considering people used to be put to death for not adhereing to the religion of the majority since the first religions, and considering that during the Red Scare communism was intimately linked with atheism and thus being accused of one was tantamount to being accused of the other (and being accused was about all it took to ruin one's life, professionally and socially), I'd say atheists have had a nice long history of steady persection that makes most of them a little touchy. I can't speak for other atheists, but what I fear most is my rights to be an atheist being stripped away in favor of institutionalized religion such as prayer in public schools or intelligent design mandated to be taught in science class.

Atheism is a lack of belief, it requires no study, no effort and no faith.

Considering we're all born atheists, I'll agree with that up to a point. But everything requires study and effort if you want to be smart at it. I'm not surprised you don't know that considering how silly and wrong your posts tend to be.

There is nothing to worship, nothing to adhere to, and therefore nothing to celebrate.

Well that's stupid. People celebrate nonreligious things all the time. Birthdays, graduations, etc. So either you're implying people worship those things, or you really are just a moron. Celebration is not exclusive to religion. Unless you want to say the Fourth of July or New Year's are religious events, which would be stupid.

You can tell what people love the most by what they spend their time doing. Another hour, another religion thread.

It's pretty cool that the city is allowing trees for other religious holidays.


/What holiday do atheists celebrate in winter?

Kome: about all Descartes was good for philosophically.

Most accurate thing ever said on Fark.

Bukharin: wydok: What holiday do atheists celebrate in winter?

New years.
They're atheists, not nihilists.

/random guy: so... what do you believe?
//nihilist: I BELIEVE NOTHING!
///It's funnier when my brother does it wearing all black and screaming in a bad German accent.



My family gathers at xmas, not for the religious holday, but for an excuse to get together while we are all off work.

Zamboro Quote 2007-12-02 01:37:26 AM
Makes sense. Most atheists I know, myself included, advocate the inclusion of world religion classes and the study of comparitive religion in general. Understanding a wide variety of religions and seeing the common themes as well as the regional differences helps one grasp that it's all man-made.


Your troll-fu is becoming stronger, grasshopper.

What's the problem with this?

Atheists are included, as well they should be, so there's nothing for atheists to biatch about.

Religious groups are getting their holy books included as part of the sum total of human knowledge, so what the hell are they going to whine for?

My God, even in an everybody wins scenario, people still complain.

wydok: /What holiday do atheists celebrate in winter?

You don't have to be Christian to celebrate Christmas (well technically you do). I mean that it's not even a religious holiday. Kids and adults associate Christmas with food, lights, and presents. Seems like only the truly religious know the real reason to celebrate, and we don't have too many of those.
The holiday spirit stuff annoys me but I still do things with my family and maybe decorate. I use the time to spend with family and enjoy the morality booster it provides.

Kome:

Hardly. We're not claiming they mock anyone's belief. Hell, no one is saying that. We're just claiming that only an X-mas tree and a Menorah are exclusionary, and that's unconstitutional. This isn't a little brother complex, this is a legitimate complaint from a legitimate minority group. Or do you still want black people to drink from seperate water fountains and women to not be able to vote?


Please tell me you just slipped this last bit in to check if anyone was actually paying attention.

Nassif Mob: Kome:

Hardly. We're not claiming they mock anyone's belief. Hell, no one is saying that. We're just claiming that only an X-mas tree and a Menorah are exclusionary, and that's unconstitutional. This isn't a little brother complex, this is a legitimate complaint from a legitimate minority group. Or do you still want black people to drink from seperate water fountains and women to not be able to vote?


Please tell me you just slipped this last bit in to check if anyone was actually paying attention.

I want to see if his beliefs are consistent.

Also, the first four sentences are spot on true. The claim is simply that having just an X-mas tree and Menorah are exclusionary, and that is unconstitutional. Which is why I'm very glad that they enacted a policy that allows any group to put up a holiday decoration. It is less exclusionary. The only other constitutional option (no group can put anything up) is equal and fair, but it is more exclusionary as it excludes everyone.

Is the Tora used as a garland?