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(Yahoo)   FEMA to its trailer denizens: You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here   (news.yahoo.com) divider line 234
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8445 clicks; posted to Main » on 29 Nov 2007 at 4:40 PM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-11-29 06:06:50 PM
tweekster: Damn I always knew you were lazy but come on.

Job:the person in question::Kryptonite:Superman.
 
2007-11-29 06:06:50 PM
czarangelus: No it won't, because they will be able to demand their rightful wage when not competing against illegal labor that will work for next to nothing.

Dude immigrants are being paid a fair market wage. They don't travel thousands of miles and leave their families for next to nothing. Go to a day labor site and offer anyone there less than $10 an hour tax free. I bet there won't be many takers.
 
2007-11-29 06:06:55 PM
Of course the affluent who benefit from "undocumented workers" will be the first to join the Minuteman bandwagon once they start organizing for American-style wages and benefits.
 
2007-11-29 06:07:31 PM
czarangelus: .

There are different categories of arguments. In fact, I'd say that logical thinking is one of the least useful and employed thinking methodology. If your girlfriend says she's cold, you turn up the heat, you don't say "prove it." Logic is a method of thinking that is only useful in a handful of contexts; far fewer contexts than you will deal with in the average day.


Okay, let me get this straight: You have just tried to use a poor attempt at logic in order to convince me that logic is not really useful. Brilliant!

Allow me to summarise: You don't really appreciate fatcs or details, and you're no fan of logic either. I get it.
 
2007-11-29 06:08:01 PM
czarangelus: And isn't it horrible?

Not when you are in teh top 15% of income earners
 
2007-11-29 06:09:18 PM
czarangelus: ReisFlynn: But that isn't practical unless you want to dictate /every/ facet of a person's life from cradle to grave. Where they live. What they learn.

Pretty much already happens. Of course, in this case, the people who lead things want us fat, stupid, and compliant.


Bzzzzt, fail, sorry. I'm not sure you have any concept of the level of totalitarian control that would be needed for your "vision". No, it is not "pretty much what already happens".

ReisFlynn: Otherwise you don't have a nice little distribution of people who are exactly skilled enough to do their assigned allotment to keep society in your vision of perfect harmony.

It used to be in this country if your granddad was a silversmith and your dad was a silversmith, there's a pretty good idea of what you're going to be too. That's why so many last names are derived from jobs. Of course, this wasn't entirely set in stone, but you have to work harder if there's something else that really lights your passion.


Um. First of all, no. Professions turning into surnames mostly predates this country. Your timeline is off.

And do you know why this was? Because there was little to no education available for the majority of the population beyond (maybe) the very basic stuff except what you could get as an apprentice.

But that period in history has about as much to do with the last couple centuries as balancing the bodies humors has to do with modern medicine, so I'm not sure what your point is. It's certainly not what we have now, and even more certainly it would play no part of your "vision", so...

I do, however, believe in counting maintanence costs in the overall labor calculation. Solar cells will expire, pipes will burst, facades need to be repainted, and so on. That requires a certain amount of directed industrial capacity.

The problem is, "directed industrial capacity" is an impossibility in a society where people work an hour or two a day.
 
2007-11-29 06:10:24 PM
Hetfield: Okay, let me get this straight: You have just tried to use a poor attempt at logic in order to convince me that logic is not really useful. Brilliant!

Fundamental premise of logic: ~(A*~A)

Please apply that to this discussion. Show your work.

DaSwankOne: Dude immigrants are being paid a fair market wage. They don't travel thousands of miles and leave their families for next to nothing. Go to a day labor site and offer anyone there less than $10 an hour tax free. I bet there won't be many takers.

When employers break the law, it's bad for society. When corporations break the law, it's bad for society. How can you Jackboots be all for castrating and hanging rapists but against making corporations even wave at the law in a friendly fashion?

The_Gallant_Gallstone: Of course the affluent who benefit from "undocumented workers" will be the first to join the Minuteman bandwagon once they start organizing for American-style wages and benefits.

Heh I could easily see a civil war starting from a situation like that. The Day Without a Mexican protests were just a hint of what a real, organized movement could do. Another reason we ought to pay legal workers market wages.
 
2007-11-29 06:11:03 PM
Hetfield: Okay, let me get this straight: You have just tried to use a poor attempt at logic in order to convince me that logic is not really useful. Brilliant!

The deification of Reason is a pointless endeavor.

It's useful, but limited.
 
2007-11-29 06:11:35 PM
czarangelus: Pretty much already happens. Of course, in this case, the people who lead things want us fat, stupid, and compliant.

Yeah, I had absolutely no choice of careers. I didn't choose what city to live in (or whether to live in a proper city at all). I don't have any discretion about what I'm going to have for dinner tonight, or whether I should get another job (or go into business for myself). My opinion about what I should wear is irrelevant, it's government issued olive green jumpsuits for all, of course. I have no control about when or how many children I have, which church (or other religious institution, or nothing) I go to. It's not like I had any input about who I'd marry -- the government arranged it when I was 6. When I get home, I don't have a choice of watching television, playing a game, reading a book, having sex, baiting czarangelus, going out to dinner, drinking vast quantities of vodak, or simply sleeping -- it's all planned out in the manual. And of course, I can't vote, donate money to my preferred candidates and causes, or express my opinions on the interwebs.

Yeah, my life has been completely controlled by Big Brother since I was born. Obviously.
 
2007-11-29 06:12:34 PM
i191.photobucket.com
 
2007-11-29 06:16:27 PM
czarangelus: Hetfield: Okay, let me get this straight: You have just tried to use a poor attempt at logic in order to convince me that logic is not really useful. Brilliant!

Fundamental premise of logic: ~(A*~A)

Please apply that to this discussion. Show your work.


Impossible. Facts, details and logic suck, and I would hate to burden this thread with useless dead freight.
 
2007-11-29 06:17:08 PM
SusanIvanova: Yeah, my life has been completely controlled by Big Brother since I was born. Obviously.

Wrong dystopian novel.

We're more along the lines of "Brave New World"

Orwell wrote the better novel, but Huxley was closer to the mark.
 
2007-11-29 06:17:28 PM
I left Louisiana and most of what I owned over two years ago. I now have a great IT job and a five-bedroom house on Long Island, NY (rental for now). Took me a whole 10 days to get a job. Suck it 9th Ward.
 
2007-11-29 06:17:31 PM
www.davidlebovitz.com

THE NEW, NEW ORLEANS


Mission Accomplished?
 
2007-11-29 06:19:44 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: Orwell wrote the better novel, but Huxley was closer to the mark.

Of course, we see nothing usual in having most of the population on Zoloft or Prozac and a prison population 4x greater than China...
 
2007-11-29 06:20:52 PM
NathanielTaggart: I left Louisiana and most of what I owned over two years ago. I now have a great IT job and a five-bedroom house on Long Island, NY (rental for now). Took me a whole 10 days to get a job. Suck it 9th Ward.

Of course, on the downside, you live in New York.

/would rather live in a shack in the bayou and poach alligator for my dinner than live in NY.
 
2007-11-29 06:21:49 PM
NathanielTaggart

Looks like us Ayn Rand inspired handles are taking over Fark.

Too bad I can't stand her.
 
2007-11-29 06:25:10 PM
I was doing a crossword yesterday and one of the clues said something like Advice from FEMA. My first thought was "nothing." (Turned out to be "evac.")
 
2007-11-29 06:25:16 PM
czarangelus: The_Gallant_Gallstone: Orwell wrote the better novel, but Huxley was closer to the mark.

Of course, we see nothing usual in having most of the population on Zoloft or Prozac and a prison population 4x greater than China...


Yeah, China has a wonderful solution to prison over-crowding, alright. (new window)

And a much better novel to talk about an over-medicated society is The Corrections, by Johnathan Franzen.
 
2007-11-29 06:29:46 PM
Savage Belief: OneBrightMonkey
Yes, because everyone who lost all their earthly possesions is 25 years old and ready to launch headfirst into a new career.

Your right though, the old and infirm among the trailer residents should yank those bootstraps tight. It's the American way.

No, but the ones that are 25 and sitting on their arses collecting a check need to get to farking work.


Quite a few of those 25 y/o's sitting on their arses don't have FARKING LEGS.

/including my brother, that lives down there and lost his legs there due to Katrina.
 
2007-11-29 06:30:09 PM
would rather live in a shack in the bayou and poach alligator for my dinner than live in NY.

Geaux Tigers! I do miss the cuisine and the freedom to carry a gun, but not much else.

/hates redneck
//N-O-T-H-I-N-G
 
2007-11-29 06:30:37 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: tweekster: And what about those that dont want to be a part of one?

Well, if someone doesn't want to work for a union shop, they can find an unscrupulous employer to screw them. There's no law against masochism.


I would just rather work for a company that doesnt screw me. Oh wait that is what I do now. It isnt hard. I would never work in a union shop, we have enough organized crime as it is.
 
2007-11-29 06:33:22 PM
So, WWtPBB is off today and czarangelus is filling in?
 
2007-11-29 06:33:29 PM
Quite a few of those 25 y/o's sitting on their arses don't have FARKING LEGS.

/including my brother, that lives down there and lost his legs there due to Katrina.


Maybe if he used his legs to get out the way, he still might have them.
 
2007-11-29 06:33:38 PM
i was gonna get a job, but then i got high
i was gonna move outta my fema trailer, but then i got high
now im crying racism and i know why
cause i get high....cause i get high.....cause i get hiiiiiigh


/la da da da da dahh
 
2007-11-29 06:35:01 PM
ReisFlynn: Yeah, China has a wonderful solution to prison over-crowding, alright.

I'm pretty sure czar wasn't advocating mobile death vans.

We're concerned with the root of the crime problem; some criminals are probably born that way, but too many take to crime because they are in an awful situation. It wasn't for nothing that Virgil told Dante that despair was a worse sin than any other.

What we need to do as a society is to provide real programs to get people the vocational training they'll need before they wind up in the criminal-justice vortex.
 
2007-11-29 06:36:11 PM
czarangelus: How many man hours of labor would it take for every American to have a basic level of food, clothing, shelter, running water and electricity, et c.? Probably only a tiny fraction of the amount of time Americans actually spend working

I would really like to see czar produce what he needs to exist on. I would like to see him, build his own home, produce his own clothes, food etc. Some how I expect he would change his mind about 40 hour work week being sooo long. Lets see him do 12 hours a day just trying to survive. no weekends off of course.
 
2007-11-29 06:36:29 PM
Yay! Another race thread!

From my observation, it seems to be largely a matter of the monumental incompetence of the federal, state and local govt. (in New Orleans at least, may be similar elsewhere). From a USA Today story from August 29, 2007:

Two years after the devastating floods that followed Hurricane Katrina, the rebuilding of New Orleans, and much of the Gulf Coast, has largely taken two paths: communities that have rebuilt themselves using private funds, insurance money and sheer will - and publicly funded efforts that have moved much more slowly.

Federal, state and local governments have struggled to speed up the release of funds and restore infrastructure. None of the 115 "critical priority projects" identified by city officials has been completed: For example, New Orleans' police superintendent still works out of a trailer, as do most of the city's firefighters. And analysts at the city's crime lab don't have a laboratory to match DNA samples.

Emergency federal funding is governed by the Stafford Act, whose rules require cities and states to match a certain percentage of federal disaster funds. The U.S. government quickly waived the match requirement after previous disasters, such as Hurricane Andrew in South Florida in 1992 and the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks, according to the U.S. Government Accountability Office.
But the match requirement - 10% in the case of the 2005 storms - wasn't waived for post-Katrina recovery and rebuilding until May, delaying many projects.

"If you ask the city, it's the state. If you ask the state, it's the feds. If you ask the feds, it's the city and the state," says Angele Givens, president of the Gentilly Civic Improvement Association.

Me again. So if govt offices in NO are still operating out of trailers, what does that tell you about the po' folk? Not saying no one in FEMA trailers is a lazy-ass, just saying, if the govt. can't get its shiat built yet, how are people who lived in the poorest sections of the city supposed to make it happen? Yeah, they could move to another part of the country, but maybe they don't want to. Maybe their entire family is in NO. Saying, "Just move someplace else" is way easier to say than do.

And I like that song, "Closing Time." It rocks.
 
2007-11-29 06:37:21 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: I'd like to see more unionization in the American work force. A strong labor movement would be a good counterbalance to the corporate dominance we endure today.

I'm guessing your aren't too familiar with unions.
 
2007-11-29 06:38:08 PM
tweekster: I would just rather work for a company that doesnt screw me. Oh wait that is what I do now. It isnt hard. I would never work in a union shop, we have enough organized crime as it is.

People organizing for better wages isn't the same as Tony Soprano putting out a hit on some sap. But even if it were, I'd rather subject myself to the gangster who had to fight for me once in a while over Enron-style sociopaths.
 
2007-11-29 06:39:08 PM
Aside from the laziness which some farkers consider phenotypical, I'm sure that some people have serious mental issues that really prevent them from having any drive or ambition, due to the fact that everything they ever acquired in their lives washed away overnight. The saddest thing about it is that the whole mess could have been prevented. Well, I guess it couldn't since God hates Catholics and all, but it could have been managed better.
 
2007-11-29 06:39:47 PM
tweekster: no weekends off of course.

Who gave us the two-day weekend?

i232.photobucket.com
 
2007-11-29 06:42:55 PM
This is repeated EVERY time after FEMA and state governments come in to provide assistance after a disaster. Initially everyone gets help because they can't sort out who deserves it or not.

After a while, the people who make an effort to adapt and move on and build a new life go on their way, as intended.

Then you're left with the leeches and the hopeless. Those who either have it better in the trailer than they had before, or who insist that they DESERVE everything back exactly the way it was and refuse to accept anything less or different. They turn around and try to blackmail the government that helped them in extremis in order to extend their free stay, and try to keep it going forever. Eventually you just have to tell them to STFU and get off the government lawn.

They're not TRYING to move on - they're trying to string out the benefits as long as possible.
 
2007-11-29 06:43:29 PM
czarangelus: There are no social or institutional failures in America leading to widespread poverty, ignorance, and disenfranchisement.

Oh, I wouldn't call it disenfranchisement. Every election day a busses go around certain neighborhoods and picks up the potential voters and takes them to the polling places. In return for the correct vote, the voters are usually given food like Barbeque.
 
2007-11-29 06:43:47 PM
czarangelus: These people are never going to "get their act together." They were educated in public schools, and lack critical thinking and predictive skills. They will never amount to anything more than the lowest rung of society based on the skills they have.

Fark you. I was educated in public schools, and I'm beginning my Ph.D. work in the spring.
 
2007-11-29 06:45:12 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: tweekster: no weekends off of course.

Who gave us the two-day weekend?


Henry Ford, moron.
 
2007-11-29 06:47:26 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: ReisFlynn: Yeah, China has a wonderful solution to prison over-crowding, alright.

I'm pretty sure czar wasn't advocating mobile death vans.


I'm positive he wasn't. I was just saying maybe pick a better example.

We're concerned with the root of the crime problem; some criminals are probably born that way, but too many take to crime because they are in an awful situation. It wasn't for nothing that Virgil told Dante that despair was a worse sin than any other.

What we need to do as a society is to provide real programs to get people the vocational training they'll need before they wind up in the criminal-justice vortex.


Which is sort of a different issue altogether. I'm all for giving people the tools to pull themselves up out of the gutter. I'm against allowing them to stay in the gutter because the alternative is too much work or not as fun.
 
2007-11-29 06:47:48 PM
czarangelus is loseing his free houseing, quick some one do something.
 
2007-11-29 06:48:05 PM
www.knitemare.org
 
2007-11-29 06:48:43 PM
NightOwl2255: A not very good one?

golf clap
 
2007-11-29 06:49:05 PM
NathanielTaggart: Henry Ford, moron.

Labor campaigns in the late 19th century to get the two day weekend predated Ford's 1926 decision to increase profitability by closing his plants on Saturday.

See... I offered dates and didn't use insults.
 
2007-11-29 06:52:29 PM
Monster_Kabasue: czarangelus is loseing his free houseing, quick some one do something.

Doesnt he live in SoCal or was that somebody else that was complaining about moving costs?
 
2007-11-29 06:54:28 PM
What I find interesting is the total black or white perceptions that exist in this post (no pun intended).

Yes. There are a ton of folks that have existed on the public teet for many years, and they will continue to do so as long as they are allowed. Are there those that should be due to their specific situation? Certainly.

But in this case we are talking about closing an avenue of housing where the people should have been making plans to vacate for over two years. I'm certain that many need to be "kicked to the curb" as an incentive to get on with their lives and become part of the community again. But I am also certain that a percentage have been taking advantage of the situation and *should* be homeless, or forced to become contributors. That is the normal way of life in America. We care for a much larger number of people then the number should be because if they do not have incentive to move on, they wont.

Being upper-middle class in salary, I am one of those that pay the most (percentage wise vs. dollars earned) for all of Americas ills. I really am tired of contributing to those that should really be deported, or made to go to work. I am also of the opinion that those in prison should be forced to work on "public works" while doing their time.

But you know what peeves me the most? Having retards in public office that I constantly vote against whom by nature create or support legislation and/or funding for items that cost me personally, but have no impact on their own pockets, and I COMPLETELY disagree with. An example would be Monkey Boy... I did not vote for him in either election, and I would not have. He is a retard that only hung onto his dad's coat tails, and because of the big oil money and family ties to important people was able to end-up where he is. It certainly wasn't due to his capabilities (likely more skilled to be a MC'Ds manager).

Is there not someone that can step up to the plate to lead our country that isn't too far in any direction, and actually doesn't have only their own personal agenda to drive for?

Is that too much to ask for?
 
2007-11-29 06:54:35 PM
I have worked for FEMA. Something to keep in mind:
FEMA will only offer rebuilding assistance if you are the OWNER of the home & it is your PRIMARY residence. Many of the placed distroyed in N.E. were owned by SLUM LORDS. Renters are NOT eligible for Rebuilding Assistance, and neither are the property owners because the places are not their Primary Residence.

Lets go back to the Welfare issue. I have to take a piss test to get & keep a job to pay the taxes that pay for welfare. So if you want welfare, you & everyone who benifits from that check should also have to take a piss test.
Get the farking crack heads, speed freaks, and such off our welfare welfare rolls and we may be able to afford universal helth care for the rest of us.
Our government spends so much $$ on the "War On Drugs", and then turns around and supports the dopers on welfare who spend bunches of that $$ on the dope. I am not saying that everyone on welfare is a doper, but too many of them are. Stop government subsidies for drug dealers. DUH
 
2007-11-29 06:56:04 PM
czarangelus: These people are never going to "get their act together." They were educated in public schools, and lack critical thinking and predictive skills. They will never amount to anything more than the lowest rung of society based on the skills they have. So why should they get a job? Why work at McDonald's and be treated like shiat all day when you can make more money on the government dole? Why get a job at Mervyn's stocking shoes if you are never ever going to be able to use it to climb out of the pit of poverty?

I went to public schools exclusively. Not underfunded inner-city ones, but underfunded rural ones. The funding level wasn't very different, but it was a much better experience, mainly due to the lack of violence* and a culture of nonachievement. I then went to a state university**. My thought processes work just fine, I'm as critical as anything, and you, at least, are very easy for me to predict. And I've got a very good job, which pays well, and I enjoy.

*Plenty of guns, but they were generally pointed at animals. Hunting is very popular thereabouts.

**Which turned out to be a good idea, since I didn't leave with a $100k debt I have no plans to ever pay.
 
2007-11-29 06:59:13 PM
RobMon: Our government spends so much $$ on the "War On Drugs

There you have it. Take the money from the War on Drugs and channel it into something meaningful. I'm honestly more concerned with the welfare paid to our societal elites; we castigate the meth freak who gets $200 a month from Uncle Sam, but we have no problems paying multi-million dollar subsidies to well-connected corporations.
 
2007-11-29 06:59:32 PM
The_Gallant_Gallstone: NathanielTaggart: Henry Ford, moron.

Labor campaigns in the late 19th century to get the two day weekend predated Ford's 1926 decision to increase profitability by closing his plants on Saturday.

See... I offered dates and didn't use insults.


But insults are fun. You didn't, however offer any proof. Ford made waves when he initiated it and even offered an explanation in World's Work, October 1926 pages 613-616. See... I offered a citation and didn't use hand-me-down drivel with no proof.

PS Workers can organize and bargain with their employer without some national, blood-sucking union.
 
2007-11-29 07:03:49 PM
mama's_tasty_foods: A little information from the perspective of a New Orleanian:

(1) Rents did spike quite high in the first year after the storm, but have now gone down substantially. They are still higher than pre-storm but probably not much >> than the rate of inflation on average. Location as always is essential: If you are renting Uptown, near the universities, I'd guess you are going to pay a lot more than you did 3 years ago- but not double, unless you are not a good shopper.

(2) FEMA trailer parks have been notorious nests of drugs and crime. They are a danger to the old people and children they are supposed to help. The security guards they hired were often in on the crime. They are worse than the projects.

(3) I want to help poor people, and certainly old people who can't work on their own. I am sick of people in their 20s and 30s who don't work and live off the government, hanging out all day long. And parents who don't see to it that their kids go to school and graduate.

(4) Anyone who tells you they can't find ANY job in New Orleans is full of shiat. The federal government ranks Orleans Parish as the nation's #1 county unit in wage growth. The average wage in New Orleans is 17% above that of the rest of the nation. Even if you have relatively few skills, if you will work hard you can find something in, say, construction. Yet I see people every day who do not work for a living; they have found some way to live off the government since Katrina.


Also a New Orleanian here.

I would just add that the trailers are dangerous. I'm not sure what's up with the fromaldihyde issue, but apparently they are rife with it and I wouldn't want to be breathing that any longer than I had to. We may find in a few years that we have a real health problem on our hands as a result.

Second, we have been playing Russian roulette with those things for two years now. As it stands, even a cat 1 (or hell, a stiff tropical storm) will pick those trailers up and toss them around like beer cans.

The risk of storm damage is far, far higher with all those trailers around. There are something like 6500 people living in those death traps, and to allow that risk to people and property to continue year after year is unacceptable.
 
2007-11-29 07:04:41 PM
RobMon Quote 2007-11-29 06:54:35 PM

Lets go back to the Welfare issue. I have to take a piss test to get & keep a job to pay the taxes that pay for welfare. So if you want welfare, you & everyone who benefits from that check should also have to take a piss test.
Get the farking crack heads, speed freaks, and such off our welfare welfare rolls and we may be able to afford universal helth care for the rest of us.
Our government spends so much $$ on the "War On Drugs", and then turns around and supports the dopers on welfare who spend bunches of that $$ on the dope. I am not saying that everyone on welfare is a doper, but too many of them are. Stop government subsidies for drug dealers. DUH


THIS

This is a realistic response in support of improving our welfare situation is the US. Why is it that anyone can make claim, but have little obligation to prove why "they" should get support.

I have ZERO issue with supporting the folks having a difficult time as long as they are making the effort required to make the situation better for themselves. I give in other ways for other efforts for the same reasons. I just have a hard time paying for government funded efforts that have no oversight, and are likely way over budget for the sake of the few that two years later could be voted out of office and have a lifetime of retirement benefits for both income and health care.
 
2007-11-29 07:06:04 PM
Savage Belief

No, but the ones that are 25 and sitting on their arses collecting a check need to get to farking work.

Stop talking about Czar like that.
 
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