FTA, ...Representatives of the United Steelworkers union ...
So the paper mill workers trusted the Steelworkers union to do for them what they did to the American steel industry. And they did.
Surprise, surprise!
In other news, 2+2=4

Papa Toe unavailable for comment.

bronyaur1: ... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?


Typical union tools.
Global factors don't matter, antiquated equipment is not a factor, rising costs of local materials and increased government industry regulations can be ignored. It must be managements fault. Evil management just won't pay higher wages. Evil management would rather close and be out of a job themselves than give the union more money.
Keep thinking that way and none of your union cronies will have a job.
Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.

12 weeks severance pay wouldn't be enough to make me go down to the sub-basement. EVER.

/obscure?
//never on fark

bitteroldman: bronyaur1: ... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?


Typical union tools.
Global factors don't matter, antiquated equipment is not a factor, rising costs of local materials and increased government industry regulations can be ignored. It must be managements fault. Evil management just won't pay higher wages. Evil management would rather close and be out of a job themselves than give the union more money.
Keep thinking that way and none of your union cronies will have a job.
Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.

Someone didn't read bronyaur1's post, but just took criticism of management to mean union whore.

Good black and white view of the world, there.

Yeesh. Life in the "North Country" of NH must suck. I think that was the last mill up and running. I think Berlin is getting a federal prison opened soon, so there's some jobs. Until then, they're SOL.

I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

If it's incompetent management, then the union should buy them out and run the business themselves. Show those cigar-chompin' fatcat bastards how it's done, and rake in all that lovely money for themselves.

/Somehow it never happens

If ever there was a product that should be outsourced to some fourth-world nation willing to pollute itself and work in slave-like conditions for pennies a day, it's paper.

If they don't like their severance offer in light of the closing mill, they should go on strike.

Give us more severance or we'll ... uh ... we'll ... um ...

Companies that are known to not offer severence tend to attract the bottom 2% of the talent pool. you figure it out.

OZZ:I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

The things you talk about are prohibited by law (at least in the US). Yes, Unions (50-100 years ago) influenced the lawmakers, and good for them.

But if you think that places in the US without unions (like in the right-to-work state I live in) suffer from child labor and 14-hour-days, you're mistaken.

What do Unions do again? Collective bargaining to force higher wagers. I've got no beef with that, but if you think that Union bosses have the greater good in mind, and not the collection of dues, you're dreaming.

EmmaLou: However, if you have a high school diploma or a GED and work a menial job, don't expect to get paid as much as a doctor or lawyer because you feel you're entitled to it. Those people worked hard for their degrees and work VERY long hours to get what they have.

That. Quit your biatching and fill up my tires while you're at it.

I'm an advocate for a living wage. Everyone should be able to pay their basics for themselves and their family: decent place to live, food in their stomachs, a mode of transportation, and health care. If people can pay for these on their own, they won't need the taxpayer money.

Actually, living wage laws amount to a tax on the businesses that have to pay them.

PlNG: 12 weeks severance pay wouldn't be enough to make me go down to the sub-basement. EVER.

/obscure?
//never on fark

Win.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?


Oh please spare me! Who hasnt worked 14 hrs, while in school, with a family. No gun to our head doing it either. Simply quit if you don't like the conditions. Job's are a company commodity, not a unions. And as for child labor, hasnt been a major case of violations in that in over 20 years. Unions were and still are the downfall of this country. Period.

drintrnet:

Oh please spare me! Who hasnt worked 14 hrs, while in school, with a family.

People with even a fundamental concept of planning?

Hey, look at the good job the unions are doing here in Detroit.

I mean, the Michigan auto industry is just booming. People buying quality American cars all over the place, and it's all down to the unions encouraging their members to give it just a little more and improve quality, because it's all about the big picture, not just a little whining. Right?

Seriously, unions are a good thing. But when they are an excuse for laziness and complacency, then they just ain't good.

If there was no UAW (yes, I know, different, but conceptually the same..), would all the auto workers here be exploited, or would the industry be booming and employing hard-working dedicated workers?

As far as I can see, the unions are not always to blame - shriveling, gutless and unimaginative management often have a lot to do with business failure.

In fairness, all I hear out of unions these days is whining; it's almost like they feel they are not doing their job if they don';t biatch at everything the company says.

/just sayin.

LoL. What leverage does the Union even have? What are they going to do, strike at a plant thats already closing?

Hiymenator: Yeesh. Life in the "North Country" of NH must suck. I think that was the last mill up and running. I think Berlin is getting a federal prison opened soon, so there's some jobs. Until then, they're SOL.

Why is "North Country" in quotes? Technically, it's the Great North Woods region, for what it's worth. But yeah, life up there sucks. I grew up NORTH of there. The factory in my town will pretty much never close because of various reasons, but life is just terrible, and now it just got worse. Awesome. At least the town will smell better now.

I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...

Paper mill gives 4 to 12 weeks pay as severance package. Union says that's not enough...

Paper mill: Ok, you get nothing then.

That is all.

klisejo: LoL. What leverage does the Union even have? What are they going to do, strike at a plant thats already closing?

They could drag the (former) owners to court and tie them up for years with nonstop bullshiat lawsuits.

/Unions exist to protect the lazy and the incompetent
//The hardworking and the competent don't need unions
///Prime example: Teachers

d0u9r0: I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...

I've never been in a union, and none of this has ever happened to me.

50 years ago, maybe. But this isn't 50 years ago. None of that would go away if all unions disappeared. The kind of retard who believes otherwise is the kind of retard who is so worthless that they need a union to tip them over the $10/hr mark.

Always nice to see the people who chose jobs in supposedly secure fields argue in favor of turning the entire service sector into one giant temporary worker pool. Especially now with that same mentality starting to affect IT, programming, and engineering. Can't wait till the lot of you get another five or ten years experience and are priced out of the market. Here's how it'll go down, the company you're working for will either fold, or just drop you. When that happens you'll go looking for another job with all those 'life-long learner' skills you're so proudly advocating. But just like the capitalist wet-dream you're advocating, no one will hire you, because they can get some 22 year old with the same skill set at half the price. You could whine and beg to get the job at a lower value then your percieved worth, but most places wont want you because it sends a bad message to the rest of the peons.

At that point you'll be begging for a job back in the service sector, but no one there will want to hire you because you're 'over-qualified' and they justifiably believe you'll jump ship as soon as you get a better offer, which is exactly the kind of world you're advocating.

/buried in Giants Stadium
//thrown into the Gulf of Mexico
///ground up and part of the new Simon & Schuster rice-paper bible

My my, you Farkers are behind the times.

I distinctly heard no less a personage than the Great Al Gore say, as recently as 1994, that NAFTA would bring good jobs and prosperity back to the United States, increase employment, raise the standard of living, and also provide lots of good jobs in Mexico so there wouldn't be so many illegal aliens coming across the border to steal jobs from low-paid unskilled Americans.

For the record, that is the same Al Gore who has won an Oscar and a Nobel Prize for his "relentlessly scientifically accurate(excuse me while I wipe the vomit off the keyboard; there)" work in alerting the public to the dangers of global warming.

So STFU And GBTW, you have no reason to complain.

Everything's wonderful in the USSA.

\\\ wonderful.

\\ \\ wonderful.

Both my parents are electricians and both work for a union and I personally think some unions help protect workers and are not just greedy assholes.

My mom tells me that many companies in the area go to non-union work at first, and then realize its not being done correctly and that their building's electric isnt working properly. Then they have to call in the union workers to fix everything, costing them more money than it would have if they just did it right in the first place.

Don't generalize that all unions suck. Company management can be just as greedy and stupid as anyone else.

LowbrowDeluxe: But just like the capitalist wet-dream you're advocating, no one will hire you, because they can get some 22 year old with the same skill set at half the price.

Here's a hint: If there are 10 other people living on the same block as you who can do the exact same thing as you and would gladly take your position at work, you're probably not worth much. It doesn't matter if you can flip the fark out of some hamburgers. Stop biatching when you put in your 40 hours and bring home a paycheck for 180 bucks. Learn something new.

If you can't learn something new, resign yourself to mediocrity.

Yeah, this brings out all the union-bashers.

However, here in Ontario, that offer wouldn't even meet the legal minimums - it's one week for every year worked, to a maximum of 26 weeks. This is in addition to the required notice period (1-8 weeks, depending on the length of employment - 8 weeks for 8 years or more, down to 1 week for 3 months-1 year of service). You can work out the notice period, but the severance has to be paid out in cash.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

Child Labour is good if your talking about the sex industry.

I am in a skilled trades union so I am getting a kick out of these replies.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.
Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

As a skilled professional I say "ha ha!" to you.

If my company doesn't treat me right, they will lose me. If they don't fear losing me, why should I be allowed to rape them for salary and benefits?

Funky Fork n Spoon:
/just sayin.


You didn't say a damn thing.

d0u9r0: I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...

By your logic, we should all vote Republican unless we want slavery back.

Jim_Callahan: d0u9r0: I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...

By your logic, we should all vote Republican unless we want slavery back.

That seems like a bit of a stretch there.

What? No Michael Scott reference

12.fl.oz.:
That seems like a bit of a stretch there.

It does? I was responding to a comment giving props to unions for something they did the greater part of a century ago that corrected some injustices. I just put forward an equivalent proposition regarding the value of another much-loved modern institution that clearly must be kept around for the good of everyone.

... waiting for a pic of Clair's dad to be posted...

giving today's unions credit for advancements made in labor laws is like giving the bush administration credit for defeating the Japanese in wwii

/is that a godwin?

bitteroldman: bronyaur1: ... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?


Typical union tools.
Global factors don't matter, antiquated equipment is not a factor, rising costs of local materials and increased government industry regulations can be ignored. It must be managements fault. Evil management just won't pay higher wages. Evil management would rather close and be out of a job themselves than give the union more money.
Keep thinking that way and none of your union cronies will have a job.
Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.


Yes, it is the management's fault. If management had kept the workers happy in the first place, they wouldn't have wanted a union. Management screws over workers, workers unionize, union screws management back.

Simple cause and effect, really.

My one comment about how unions think:

The workers in my lab unionised a few years back (still on the first CBA). The agreement runs out next year, and I asked the union rep what he thought about a the next negotiations. He said the union might not represent us because they don't get enough dues from us (you don't have to join in my state).

So much for "we do it becasue we care about the workers and the conditions".

I think the owner should negotiate with the union over severence pay. Tell them every day they biatch about it, they lose a week of pay.

OZZI wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

False dichotomy there, brother. First of all, work weeks are now shorter in large part thanks to advances in technology that create increases in productivity--you don't need people working 14 hours a day to make 20 cars if you can use robots to make those cars in 8 hours, with workers supervising the robots for those 8 hours. Also, a lot of jobs now require some level of thought, now that machines do all the mindless menial labor that humans used to do (like bolt-tightening or candy-wrapping). If you're working 20 hours a day, you'll probably fark up that Excel spreadsheet or cause some other human error and cost the company millions. A well-managed company would not want you working that much. Each additional hour that you work is less productive, and at the same time costs the same (or time and a half, if you're being paid overtime).

But keep believing your pseudo-Marxist claptrap about our Saviour Jimmy Hoffa come down to deliver the wretched masses from the evils of the wage-slave-driver.

LaChanz: potee: Prime example: Teachers

I'm glad to see you learned to read and write considering the incompetence of your teachers. My wife is a teacher and the school union does squat for her. It's sad that people like you blame the teachers for what is essentially the call of school boards made up of mostly parents. Things are so bad sometimes that my wife considers quitting and going on to other things, which is sad because she really is in it for the kids.

Hate to rain on your parade but here is what potee said:
/Unions exist to protect the lazy and the incompetent
//The hardworking and the competent don't need unions
///Prime example: Teachers
I think he was saying that the hardworking and competent (his example being teachers) don't need unions. Thus validating your point that the teachers union is worthless to the teacher.

bugger this, why should the workers have to subsidize a non-competitive industry? If people want to go to bed at night feeling comfortable that there are still local heavy industries in-country when the same jobs can be done elsewhere much more cheaply, then they're just going to have to pony up with the subsidies or pay the higher prices through tarriff protection to keep these industries in place.

You can't expect these workers to keep rolling back their real wages (including entitlements) because of this. If the community thinks there's such a real benefit to having this industry locally, it should be prepared to support it.

And to keep toeing the old economists' line - if this company fails, it frees up capital to start another in an area that's going to show better returns. Unfortunately, the economists gloss over the fact that the capital can move easily and will probably be invested elsewhere.

Hiymenator: Yeesh. Life in the "North Country" of NH must suck. I think that was the last mill up and running. I think Berlin is getting a federal prison opened soon, so there's some jobs. Until then, they're SOL.

oh yea... *rolls eyes* A prison is going to replace all of the mill jobs lost in the last 30 years...

NOT...

/Used to live 15 mins north of Berlin
// Wasn't really any jobs back then either

Telos


Yes, it is the management's fault. If management had kept the workers happy in the first place, they wouldn't have wanted a union. Management screws over workers, workers unionize, union screws management back.

You seem to think that the workers went to the union.

Just as easily could have been:
Workers are happy at $15/hr. Some union dudes show up and say "If you join our union, we can get you $18/hr"
"ok"

To justify themselves, the union keeps pushing for more and more.
Eventually, they price themselves right out of the market.

Union bosses move on to another group of previously happy workers/dues payers.

Am I missing something here? How does the union have any sort of bargaining power at this point? This seems like a pretty gracious act of charity on the company's part, and they could just as easily give nothing.

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?

Maybe, but the union would have prevented them from being fired.

The hardworking and competent do need unions.

To protect them. But the union itself should be hardworking and competent.

Lets say that you make cars. The quality of your work is very, very important because if you fark it up, people could die. Or if you keep farking up, it directly affects the bottom line of your company in multiple ways. So they have a vested interest in paying a premium for quality, dedication, hard work, etc.

However, the workers don't always understand this. They may think that $10/hr is a lot of money. Living off $10/hr is pretty damn hard. I don't want the guy that installed the seats or axles in my car to have just come from their economy-sized apartment depressed that he can't afford anything his company produces or even a decent bicycle to ride to work with. Those people produce poor results.

Without those autoworkers, there are no cars. If you hire cheaper, quality WILL WITHOUT A DOUBT suffer.

Lets talk about people like shareholders and CEOs that get millions for very little work. Lets talk about how much they want money for nothing.

Look, is it so hard to realize that it's not black and white? That there's a continuum between slavery and over-entitlement?

Every informed person here knows the history of how your average industrial-age worker started out being routinely exploited by their employers with unreasonable hours, miserly pay, and dangerous conditions. Also how they won basic rights and dignity through the labor movement of the late 19th and early 20th century. Good stuff, that.

Many here also probably know of stories about the later years when things went the other way - unions began to exploit their new found power over their employers with unreasonable demands. Employees went from simply asking for rights to decent wages and safe working conditions, to extorting lifetime employment regardless of performance or usefullness of skillset. Economic development stagnated in the manufacturing sector because no rational company wanted to take on the responsibility of supporting a group of people for their entire lives just to build some cars today.

Is it so hard to see here that the problem is just the basic aspects of human nature to grap all you can take? Can we agree that maybe both sides need controls and limits?

Remember the Wheland Foundry located in Chattanooga, TN? They made about half of the brake drums and rotors on cars throughout the US.

Well, in 2000 they had a plan to to quadruple in size over the next 5-6 years to become a $1-billion/yr business. Link (new window) Everything was looking great for the business and all of its employees. If everything went forward as planned they would have been able to hire a heck of a lot more employees and everyone would have been happy.

About this time the union contract came up for renewal. Instead of working with the company at a time when they wanted to expand and when other foundries and auto worker jobs were moving overseas, and just as they started to see a downturn in the auto industry, the union told its 800+ Chattanooga workers that they needed to strike.

Strike they did. After many weeks a new contract was agreed upon with little to no improvements for the workers. The company started up production again but the strike was just too much and the company filed for bankruptcy, closed, displacing over 800 workers. Link (new window)

The union kept saying that it wouldn't be long and someone else would purchase the plant and start production back up. Sadly, that never happened and they ended tearing down the foundry. Link (new window)

Had the union recognized that there was downturn in the industry at the time and instead of striking agreed to a 6 month to a 1 year extension to the contract, Wheland could have made it through the downturn and started to expand operations, thus protecting their members long-term. However, the union was short sighted and they pushed for the strike which ultimately destroyed the jobs they are supposed to protect.

Luckily for my brother, he saw the writing on the wall when the union talking about striking. He used common sense to determine that the company couldn't survive through a strike and went to school to become an electrician.

Unions need to realize that they cannot force their way and strike, all other factors be damned. They need to take all factors into consideration. Sure it would be great to have unskilled and/or semi-skilled workers making $20 per hour. However, that is not realistic. Companies don't exist to provide jobs, but to make profit. It is better for an employee to make the same pay rate for a few more years than to force a company to close and put all of the worker of their jobs.

Many who worked at Wheland didn't graduate from high school. Some couldn't read. They were making a livable wage, with no prospects if the foundry closed. When it closed they found they couldn't find jobs making near what they were making while at Wheland as they had few skills and with over 800 people applying for the same jobs it was a "buyers" market.

Unions have done a lot of good for U.S. workers. Most of their good was achieved decades ago. Today they often cause as many problems as they solve.

It's all about a living wage, folks. The families of these workers don't give a damn how much you think they're worth. If you can't put food on the table, your family goes hungry. And I'll guarantee you that all those severance packages come on the condition of releasing the company from any and all harm and a waiver of every one of the worker protection and civil rights laws on the books. Yet this is America. These people are the ones who made it great, and the least they deserve is a fair shake. I guarantee you the union wasn't making management decisions for the company, yet the workers will be the first to pay for the incompetence of management. This is a disgrace. When a machine becomes obsolete, management scraps it. These workers aren't machines. But it appears they've been scrapped nonetheless. Stand up for these people. Lord knows they've stood up for you.

LaChanz: potee: Prime example: Teachers

I'm glad to see you learned to read and write considering the incompetence of your teachers. My wife is a teacher and the school union does squat for her. It's sad that people like you blame the teachers for what is essentially the call of school boards made up of mostly parents. Things are so bad sometimes that my wife considers quitting and going on to other things, which is sad because she really is in it for the kids.

I don't blame teachers for the plight of some of our schools. I blame legislators on both sides of the aisle for treating education as a talking point. As you yourself said, unions have done squat for those who do their jobs well. They only protect the incompetent.

Worthless Anecdotal Evidence:
When I was in 6th grade, my (50 y/o, female) math teacher would routinely grope students (particularly female students) in an attempt to "teach supplemental sex education." Course, we had a health teacher for that, and she was the only one who was allowed to teach that subject (by state law). Finally a girl told her parents who reported it to the school, and once the accusations started coming in from several other parents, the union wagons immediately circled up around this mentally sick teacher. She was never even put on leave, and she still teaches at that elementary school today.

The point of that was to show that unions do far more harm than good. When the unions circle up around shiatty teachers instead of casting them out, they drag quality teachers, schools, and the whole educational system down with them. The same is true for basically every profession that the union is involved in.

I am tired of all you hand-wringing Union bashers jumping on the band wagon and biatching about what you think is going on. Oh sure, you can GIS and link articles about Union corruption. BFD. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and do something about it? I do. Two evenings a week, from 5:30-8:30, (after working +10hrs) I'm an instructor for a local union apprenticeship program. I see skilled, motivated, even brilliant apprentices working through our program with the one desire to be the best at their trade. Sure there are those who are just thinking about the money and feel entitled to their jobs. But they don't last long in our program.

Yes, Some Unions have gotten a bad rep. And for good reasons. But you're making it sound like Corporate America is one giant benevolent organization, created with the greater good in mind. Get your heads out of your asses: Unions were created to help and protect the worker. You know, the widest part of the pyramid? The Base that supports all businesses?
Just because some corporate white collar doesn't turn a wrench or drive a nail doesn't mean he isn't stealing or lazy. Who in any corporation is making more than $30/hr?
The skilled and unskilled union work force don't get:

Salary
Incentive pay
Stock Awards
"Other" compensation
Bonuses
LTIP Payouts
Securities options

If you don't like your job, look for something you'd like to do. Don't biatch about all unions in general, because you don't know.

OZZ Quote 2007-11-11 03:45:16 PM
I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?


We should do away with all unions as unions had NOTHING to do with those changes.

Telos: Yes, it is the management's fault. If management had kept the workers happy in the first place, they wouldn't have wanted a union. Management screws over workers, workers unionize, union screws management back.

Simple cause and effect, really.

This position fails to take into consideration that most states are closed shop states. Meaning if you wish to work at a place that have workers who organized, maybe 50+ years ago, than you are required by law to become a union member. Thus the mere presence of a union doesn't necessarily reflect current worker/management relationships but the relationship that existed when it first became unionized.

Also, it is interesting the unions want their members to boycott Coors beer, which is supposed to be the only major brewery that is non-unionized. Here the workers are clearly happy with their relationship with management as shown by their continued rejection of unionization, and yet unions still demand the workers be unionized.

olddinosaur: My my, you Farkers are behind the times.

I distinctly heard no less a personage than the Great Al Gore say, as recently as 1994, that NAFTA would bring good jobs and prosperity back to the United States, increase employment, raise the standard of living, and also provide lots of good jobs in Mexico so there wouldn't be so many illegal aliens coming across the border to steal jobs from low-paid unskilled Americans.

For the record, that is the same Al Gore who has won an Oscar and a Nobel Prize for his "relentlessly scientifically accurate(excuse me while I wipe the vomit off the keyboard; there)" work in alerting the public to the dangers of global warming.

So STFU And GBTW, you have no reason to complain.

As Democrats, Clinton and Gore turned out to be pretty good Republicans. What's that giant sucking sound I hear? Jobs fleeing the US by the thousands? Nah, couldn't be.

Then again, even Perot's got operations in Mexico these days, so it's not like he set any kind of example.

JeffreyScott: Companies don't exist to provide jobs, but to make profit.

THIS

/Don't like it? Start your own company.

Honest question,

How is it that one of the best things to happen to workers rights and benefits has turned into total crap? How do good things suddenly end up being run by morons?

/Or should I say morans?

eatin' fetus: Funky Fork n Spoon:
/just sayin.


You didn't say a damn thing.

????

Only commenting on what a combination of whining unions and poor management can do to a region. You read?

Unions and Reality are a bit far apart.

Sir, between the lines.

If that's ok by you.

AppleOptionEsc: Honest question,

How is it that one of the best things to happen to workers rights and benefits has turned into total crap? How do good things suddenly end up being run by morons?

/Or should I say morans?

Progress, and those who want to hold it back for their own ends.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

This is fark, if the almighty invisible hand of capitalism demanded it, child labor would be honkey-dorey.

I imagine many were conditioned to hate unions since childhood, because nothing scares the corporate world more than a unified workforce.

AppleOptionEsc: Honest question,

How is it that one of the best things to happen to workers rights and benefits has turned into total crap? How do good things suddenly end up being run by morons?

/Or should I say morans?

That's what happens when everything becomes a commodity. As most emotion-driven things do - even if that wasn't the intention. For example, Workers Rights. It's a wonderful business.

Popularity = Market = Greed eventually.

See religion.

LaChanz: potee: I don't blame teachers for the plight of some of our schools.

I apologize for misunderstanding you. I tend to jump the gun on those that lay all the blame on teachers. As it turns out, I totally agree with you. Most of those I know in the unions are fat, lazy, and the "It's not my job." kind of folks.

You should take a look at the construction unions. If you will not work, you usually don't last long on the jobsite.

I love the pro-business crowd in here who are pretending that this mill is closing and that there will be no further profit made. After watching the auto industry pack up and leave from my home state (a right-to-work state, mind you) I can guarantee you some things:

1.) The equipment will be sold
2.) The building itself will be sold
3.) the property will be sold
and
4.) the shareholder will recoup some losses.


I have trouble believing that a shareholder who decided to spend a little money they had lying around on stock in some company deserves their losses recouped more than someone who has lost a lifelong career, and has no prospects of regaining said security.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?

Well the Unions certainly did a fine job of keeping the employees at this papermill from working 14 hours a day. In fact they are doing even better, they're working zero hours a day. See guys, all those union dues paid off!

I don't belong to a union. I have the Texas Workforce Commission. Free service for all employees and they don't ring money out of business for money's sake.

I was laid off once. Actually they left 6 of us go. They told me I had a month, I could work or I could leave but either way they'd help me find a job - the plant manager's secretary would write our resumes and would send out apps for us and do follow up calls. We had one guy who was 6 weeks short of retirement so I told the boss that I'd like to give my 2 weeks to Bob so he could retire at 65. They said "let us get back to you". I went back to work.

They called the next guy in, who started screaming because he just refi'd his house to buy a boat (we all saw the layoffs coming, it was pretty apparent if you had a pulse). After he threw a coffee pot at the boss he was escorted out by security, not sure what he got but I don't think it was the full 4 weeks of pay. Everyone else was pretty cool.

I was about to leave for the end of the day when they called me in. "R, we thought about what you offered, Bob would like that". Cool. I told 'em that I'd wrap up my projects so as not to leave a mess. The boss looked over at me said "you have 90 days, you can leave today or whenever". Wow. I spent the next 4 weeks busting butt, took a week off, then returned for another couple of weeks. They found me a job that didn't pay as much but was much easier and closer to home. I took it then went to Hatteras for a month.

We've had places close here with no notice or much less severance pay. With so many places going to Mexico/China I'd be lucky with anything now. :P

JeffreyScott: Remember the Wheland Foundry located in Chattanooga, TN?

"Labor unions killed Wheland Foundry"
Some people might wish to make unions the scapegoat in this situation, although they are only part of the equation. Wheland Foundry was unionized in its profitable heyday, and while the strike a few years made some headlines, for the most part there was far less labor strife there than at other companies.
That being said, unions certainly made Wheland Foundry much less flexible when it began to have financial difficulties. Furthermore, once the company went up for sale, its union workforce did not add any attraction.
I believe, however, that Wheland Foundry would have gone under even if its workers had not been organized. The union, while adding to the troubles faced by the company, was not the main trouble itself.

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LaChanz:
Here in Maine you would be hard pressed to find any construction unions outside of the paper mills. I'm only talking of those I know around Central Maine. But if that were the case, I'm sure the job boss would quickly do away with the lazy but the union would find another place for them. I know there are hard working people in the unions, unfortunately, you are out numbered.
I see you are self employed too. My hat is tipped to you for the discount offer in your profile.
Around here about all the big projects (2 million and on up) are going to be union jobs. If you want to make a decent wage then that is where the money is here. Most skilled trade is around $30/hr. Give or take. If you are a slacker, you will be sitting on the bench alot. The good guys get taken up pretty fast.

LaChanz: People would be able to buy much more with $8 an hour if employers didn't have to charge so much to cover the cost of the $14.50 an hour grocery bagger.


Do you really think that a cut in labor costs'll be passed on to consumers?

Honestly?

I don't have much love for the Unions, The AFL-CIO is the biggest single contributor to GLAD. What does Ghey rights have to do with the plight of the Workin' man against management? Not a DAMN thing! That would mean they are frauds.

bitteroldman Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.

Which would be easy, because Sri Lanka has about 3x the fraction of workers in labor unions that the US has. Wait, why did you give such a completely terrible example for your argument?

vgt: Do you really think that a cut in labor costs'll be passed on to consumers?

Honestly?

of course. that's the basis of competition. by cutting costs in one area, a company can price their product lower than their competitors thus gaining market share and earning more money. the unions keep the labor portion of production costs artificially inflated thus pushing prices higher. it's just good business sense to pass savings along to the consumer.

If everyone was subject to unions then the workers unions and factory unions would realise that they have a common interest.

Like where I come from.

Also, when you're fired, your union pays you (as long as they're confident that you're out looking for another job). You "anti-union" people are rather daft, or maybe your country is just farked up.

JeffreyScott: Telos: Yes, it is the management's fault. If management had kept the workers happy in the first place, they wouldn't have wanted a union. Management screws over workers, workers unionize, union screws management back.

Simple cause and effect, really.

This position fails to take into consideration that most states are closed shop states. Meaning if you wish to work at a place that have workers who organized, maybe 50+ years ago, than you are required by law to become a union member. Thus the mere presence of a union doesn't necessarily reflect current worker/management relationships but the relationship that existed when it first became unionized.


So you expect me to believe management changes? People 50 years ago would screw over their workers but today they wouldn't? Bull.

Now they just move manufacturing to another company so they can abuse the people there instead.


Also, it is interesting the unions want their members to boycott Coors beer, which is supposed to be the only major brewery that is non-unionized. Here the workers are clearly happy with their relationship with management as shown by their continued rejection of unionization, and yet unions still demand the workers be unionized.

Of course they do. Unions make money based on their membership. They are greedy. See how greed can be harmful? Kind of a stark contrast to the usual economic conservative pap about greed being good, if you ask me.

Torvo: I suspect the union in the article is complainging about the severance not being enough because they forsee the lessening of income from union dues.

In most places, severance pay is not mandated by law, but offered by a company as a form of gratitude for time in service. In those places, no company is obligated by law to offer it to anyone.

Also, will those of you with personal experience belonging to a labor union please explain to those without that experience about the costs associated with belonging to a union? In my experience, a $30/hr. union factory assembly job translates into $15-18/hr. after dues and other expenses -- and you're still paying income tax on the $30/hr.

I've seen comments with regards to people who've spent a long time at a union job making bank. Well, anyone in most any job who stays with one company throughout their career usually sees the wage or salary pile up. That's just the nature of working.

I don't know where you came up with your numbers. The $30/hr figure would be the worker's wage before taxes. The union package per hour that the employer would pay would be more than that depending on the fringes that come with it. The worker would actually make $30/hr before his tax liability comes out of his wage.

Don't like your job? Work somewhere else.

"no, I'd rather blackmail the company!"

What is more obsolete and counterproductive to their once usefulness? Unions? Or the NAACP?

The_Original_Roxtar: just good business sense to pass savings along to the consumer.

but as we all know from cases like Enron, and MCI Worldcom, businesses do NOT always do what is best for business.

Unions exist to force companies to do the right thing.


That being said, any organisation composed of people is subject to the faults of people. Unions can be greedy, self-interested and stupid, just like big business, but that doesn't make either organisation inherently bad.

Unions can protect against incompetent management. Unions can impede necessary cutbacks. Unions are no more dangerous than the people who run them, and no more helpful then the people they protect.

Personally, if you need a union to protect your self interest, it's probably the type of job robots will be doing down the line.

I for one, welcome our robot overlords.

Our Union, of which I am a mandatory contributor, conceded our COLA for the Union right to block competitor e-mails from being sent to Employees.

Speaking of baggers making tons of money, the Aldi's in my area was hiring in cashiers at around $20/hour. Seems like a lot, but they cut costs in other ways. They don't have people answering the phones, they barely advertise, and they have damn cheap food. They also charge for bags and let you take away boxes for them.

And the cashiers there are really good. I've noticed some that have been working there for years, seems like a very low turnover for the industry.

jjorsett said it all..

Give us more severance or we'll ... uh ... we'll ... um ...

SockMonkeyHolocaust:
People working these jobs don't realize that they should be using the better pay scale they receive to better themselves and not to settle in and expect a lifetime of hand holding and steadily rising wages.

That goes for a lot of people who dont plan ahead and assume they'll always make what they make. I couldnt get my ex to understand it, and we never got out of debt (when we easily could have).

My dad runs his own business and earlier in the decade was doing quite well for himself, better than he ever had, in fact. But he invested very little and has a lot of money in toys like a small boat ($7k) and a motorcycle ($9K) Rifles ($4k) and miscellaneous trinkets and doo-dads to put here and there, nevermind money he spent eating out almost every meal for years, allowing my mother to buy all sorts of stuff she doesnt need, etc.

Granted, he has a lot of equity in his business, and quite a bit in his home (and, long story short, could make a huge profit off what he paid to build the place) but hes spent so much on whims and things he rarely uses, that even he admits it has bitten him in the ass.

He has no debt aside from his mortgage and his building payment for the business, but he also has no other investments or health insurance because he just assumed business would *always* be great. :-/

Conclusion. Economics isn't a strong point on Fark.....

CavemanCometh

Neither is labour relations.

vgt: Do you really think that a cut in labor costs'll be passed on to consumers?

Well, Walmart pays shiat wages and has pretty much the cheapest prices around, so yeah, I kinda do.

(Obviously they also sell the shiattiest shiat around but the fact that their labor costs are low is still a factor.)

Walmart also undercuts suppliers pricing and has a history of not actually paying all the shiat wages they owe. Somehow five of the top 12 richest people in America are from WalMart.

Hmmm Heres how it is.

Unions: Do what we say and pay us what we want or we'll fark up your business.

How does that differ from extortion or what the mafia did to the shop owners of the 1920's? The Unions today are the biggest crock of crap ever. Its outmoded and and outdated and no longer needed.

st.theresa: Walmart also undercuts suppliers pricing and has a history of not actually paying all the shiat wages they owe. Somehow five of the top 12 richest people in America are from WalMart.

That's cute but all the American public cares about is that they can buy cheap plastic lead-tainted Chinese crud at a bargain price.

When are we going to outsource these unions to India?

As incompetent as those Indians are at tech support, Unions should take root very well, there.

Oh wait, Indians might have good work ethics, if so, then unions may not do so well, after all. Because with good work ethics, employees don't really need to belong to a union.

I've been laid off by a few start-ups I worked for. Severence pay? I wish! We just showed up and were told "Company ran out of money, so we're closing up...good luck"!

Spoiled union idiots should try working in a competetive industry.

OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.
Child labour is even better.
Why can't we return to our conservative values?

Because every company that doesn't have a union uses child labor and forces people to work 14 hours a day, right? You are a weak ass union shill.

Lets talk about people like shareholders and CEOs that get millions for very little work. Lets talk about how much they want money for nothing.

Right, because you don't need shareholders to get factory machinery to make cars. That machinery is free... cheap? you can make cars without machinery? That must be it.

You can make them from rainbows and unicorns and love.

I wonder why you don't go do that then... don't ask me for a loan, you can make cars with no startup cost, no risk, and no need for investors.

Or maybe you're saying there's no risk in investing, and there isn't a gamble involved. Which makes sense, companies don't fold and lose nearly everything... like this paper mill closing.

Oops, well that can't be it.

Last option, I should just give a company my money to buy factory equipment, not expect any return; and shrug and grin if they fold and lose the money I was letting them hold for me with no return ever?

If that's your idea of proper investing... please let me know how much capital you have available. I have a couple prospects you might be interested in. I'd certainly be willing to pitch you a few ideas on some concepts I'm working up that I'd like you to invest in.