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(WLBZ2.com)   Paper mill gives 4 to 12 weeks pay as severance package. Union says that's not enough... which is pretty much the kind of thinking that got them there in the first place   (wlbz2.com) divider line 119
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8043 clicks; posted to Main » on 11 Nov 2007 at 3:35 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-11-11 11:44:22 AM  
Here in Maine, the unions pretty much have killed off most of the factory jobs in the state. Here's one closing and instead of saying, "Hey, we could take a pay cut if that will help keep you guys here," they're trying to suck even more out of them. Maybe they'll take them to court and totally bankrupt the whole company so maybe even more money sucking unions can be out of work.
 
2007-11-11 12:15:28 PM  
FTA, ...Representatives of the United Steelworkers union ...
So the paper mill workers trusted the Steelworkers union to do for them what they did to the American steel industry. And they did.
Surprise, surprise!
In other news, 2+2=4
 
2007-11-11 12:57:16 PM  
incompetent management not a factor then?
 
2007-11-11 01:14:15 PM  
But Carlson said Friday the severance deal is the company's final offer. He said if the mill was making money it wouldn't be closing.

I'd say that's a pretty compelling argument ;)
 
2007-11-11 01:45:23 PM  
Papa Toe unavailable for comment.
 
2007-11-11 01:59:08 PM  
SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?

I'd bet on it. Doesn't make the union any smarter, though.
 
2007-11-11 02:30:35 PM  
... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?
 
2007-11-11 02:50:20 PM  
bronyaur1: ... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?


Typical union tools.
Global factors don't matter, antiquated equipment is not a factor, rising costs of local materials and increased government industry regulations can be ignored. It must be managements fault. Evil management just won't pay higher wages. Evil management would rather close and be out of a job themselves than give the union more money.
Keep thinking that way and none of your union cronies will have a job.
Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.
 
2007-11-11 03:42:53 PM  
Not trying to white knight for anyone, but when you're uneducated and possess no real job skills, a Union that promises you a middle class living is a pretty tempting thing. Thanks to the new contract, the senior janitors in my building will be making $18 an hour by next year. They don't realize that they could all be replaced in a second by new people making $11 an hour.

Someone I know is about to get bought out by the company he works at because he's the senior deli guy at a big chain food store. He's at his wit's end because he thought the Union would protect his $22 an hour job when he should have realized that there is no tangible benefit of a company holding on to a $22 an hour meat slicer. You could argue customer service and loyalty, etc. but customers will get over losing him.

People working these jobs don't realize that they should be using the better pay scale they receive to better themselves and not to settle in and expect a lifetime of hand holding and steadily rising wages.
 
2007-11-11 03:43:04 PM  
12 weeks severance pay wouldn't be enough to make me go down to the sub-basement. EVER.

/obscure?
//never on fark
 
2007-11-11 03:43:27 PM  
bitteroldman: bronyaur1: ... so, because a firm's management might be incompetent, the firm's union gets to be stupid, too?

SilentStrider: incompetent management not a factor then?


Typical union tools.
Global factors don't matter, antiquated equipment is not a factor, rising costs of local materials and increased government industry regulations can be ignored. It must be managements fault. Evil management just won't pay higher wages. Evil management would rather close and be out of a job themselves than give the union more money.
Keep thinking that way and none of your union cronies will have a job.
Don't worry though, you can always go try to unionize Sri Lanka.


Someone didn't read bronyaur1's post, but just took criticism of management to mean union whore.

Good black and white view of the world, there.
 
2007-11-11 03:44:08 PM  
Yeesh. Life in the "North Country" of NH must suck. I think that was the last mill up and running. I think Berlin is getting a federal prison opened soon, so there's some jobs. Until then, they're SOL.
 
OZZ
2007-11-11 03:45:16 PM  
I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?
 
2007-11-11 03:47:15 PM  
bitteroldman: Typical union tools.

Wow. I guess that makes you a typical anti-union tool? The difference being that the other two posters did wonder if incompetent management (which is typically the big factor with the collapse of a business, but hey, you seem to know more about how the world works than anyone else) contributed, didn't flat out say it was the only reason the mill failed.
This looks like a mix... poor business management, a lot of change in the industry (I like how people attempt to look at all businesses in vaccuums... paper mills have been shutting down all over the country, and it isn't because of "teh evul unionz", look at the logging industry, environmental concerns, and other nations), and a union not willing to flex.

I'm not "pro" union. I'm "anti-lazy dumbass". Meaning... I'm against some unions, and against most of the people who can't think outside of "it must be a union's fault". Because, well, businesses worth their salt ALWAYS get by.
 
2007-11-11 03:49:49 PM  
SockMonkeyHolocaust: Someone I know is about to get bought out by the company he works at because he's the senior deli guy at a big chain food store.

Unions in grocery stores and stuff... I'm sorry, those people don't deserve d*ck. Put them with professional sports unions, as those groups are just bastards. I can't feel sorry for someone who works at Safeway for 20 years, and the union doesn't have their back or is dissolved.
 
2007-11-11 03:49:51 PM  
If it's incompetent management, then the union should buy them out and run the business themselves. Show those cigar-chompin' fatcat bastards how it's done, and rake in all that lovely money for themselves.

/Somehow it never happens
 
2007-11-11 03:50:40 PM  
If ever there was a product that should be outsourced to some fourth-world nation willing to pollute itself and work in slave-like conditions for pennies a day, it's paper.
 
2007-11-11 03:50:43 PM  
SockMonkeyHolocaust: Not trying to white knight for anyone, but when you're uneducated and possess no real job skills, a Union that promises you a middle class living is a pretty tempting thing. Thanks to the new contract, the senior janitors in my building will be making $18 an hour by next year. They don't realize that they could all be replaced in a second by new people making $11 an hour.

Someone I know is about to get bought out by the company he works at because he's the senior deli guy at a big chain food store. He's at his wit's end because he thought the Union would protect his $22 an hour job when he should have realized that there is no tangible benefit of a company holding on to a $22 an hour meat slicer. You could argue customer service and loyalty, etc. but customers will get over losing him.

People working these jobs don't realize that they should be using the better pay scale they receive to better themselves and not to settle in and expect a lifetime of hand holding and steadily rising wages.


But, remember, we need meat slicers and factory workers. The people who hate unions also hate welfare. There's only so much people can buy with $8 per hour jobs. Some people are just not meant to be college educated or professionals. Either they don't want to be or they just can't make it for some other reason.

I'm an advocate for a living wage. Everyone should be able to pay their basics for themselves and their family: decent place to live, food in their stomachs, a mode of transportation, and health care. If people can pay for these on their own, they won't need the taxpayer money.

However, if you have a high school diploma or a GED and work a menial job, don't expect to get paid as much as a doctor or lawyer because you feel you're entitled to it. Those people worked hard for their degrees and work VERY long hours to get what they have.
 
2007-11-11 03:51:51 PM  
If they don't like their severance offer in light of the closing mill, they should go on strike.
 
2007-11-11 03:52:36 PM  
Give us more severance or we'll ... uh ... we'll ... um ...
 
2007-11-11 03:53:25 PM  
Companies that are known to not offer severence tend to attract the bottom 2% of the talent pool. you figure it out.
 
2007-11-11 03:54:28 PM  

OZZ:I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?


The things you talk about are prohibited by law (at least in the US). Yes, Unions (50-100 years ago) influenced the lawmakers, and good for them.

But if you think that places in the US without unions (like in the right-to-work state I live in) suffer from child labor and 14-hour-days, you're mistaken.

What do Unions do again? Collective bargaining to force higher wagers. I've got no beef with that, but if you think that Union bosses have the greater good in mind, and not the collection of dues, you're dreaming.
 
2007-11-11 03:54:57 PM  
EmmaLou: However, if you have a high school diploma or a GED and work a menial job, don't expect to get paid as much as a doctor or lawyer because you feel you're entitled to it. Those people worked hard for their degrees and work VERY long hours to get what they have.

That. Quit your biatching and fill up my tires while you're at it.
 
2007-11-11 03:55:06 PM  
When I was 19 I worked a union shutdown at our local paper mill. The first thing the union boss told me was to claim 10 dependants on my W2 so I could get most of the $17.50 an hour they were paying me for my unskilled labor. The second thing he told me and four others was to hide for the next two days because they over hired.

Yep. Good old American Unionism at it's finest.
 
2007-11-11 03:55:29 PM  
I'm an advocate for a living wage. Everyone should be able to pay their basics for themselves and their family: decent place to live, food in their stomachs, a mode of transportation, and health care. If people can pay for these on their own, they won't need the taxpayer money.

Actually, living wage laws amount to a tax on the businesses that have to pay them.
 
2007-11-11 03:57:19 PM  
PlNG: 12 weeks severance pay wouldn't be enough to make me go down to the sub-basement. EVER.

/obscure?
//never on fark


Win.
 
2007-11-11 03:57:50 PM  
EmmaLou: There's only so much people can buy with $8 per hour jobs.

Yes, and you know what you do there? You don't spend as much. That's what people who have grown up without money do. That's what people SHOULD do.
I think Americans are too fat and happy, and too many people without money spend their money on crap they absolutely don't need (I've seen it, over and over and over again, in my own family and community). People need to understand that if you're living in a major city, working for minimum wage, you're PROBABLY better off moving elsewhere (and it isn't that expensive to move, if you put the time in yourself, and you save for a bit of time). Let's use my state as an example... minimum wage everywhere is high. However, cost of living is hugely variable (I am currently in an older 4 bedroom house that rents for $400 a month, and the typical price for a decent 2 bedroom house to rent is probably similar) in a community without a great future economy, but plenty of lower-paying jobs... in bigger cities, even a community about twice this size, small 1 bedroom apartments cost much more per month than this). I think that too many people are too lazy to change their situation, or they are too lazy to save money.

IMHO, factory work is a bit different, it depends. But we don't need to give meat slicers in the grocery store $20/hour, unless they slice every strip of steak by hand.
 
2007-11-11 03:59:49 PM  
OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?



Oh please spare me! Who hasnt worked 14 hrs, while in school, with a family. No gun to our head doing it either. Simply quit if you don't like the conditions. Job's are a company commodity, not a unions. And as for child labor, hasnt been a major case of violations in that in over 20 years. Unions were and still are the downfall of this country. Period.
 
2007-11-11 04:00:30 PM  
People would be able to buy much more with $8 an hour if employers didn't have to charge so much to cover the cost of the $14.50 an hour grocery bagger.
 
2007-11-11 04:01:46 PM  
drintrnet:

Oh please spare me! Who hasnt worked 14 hrs, while in school, with a family.


People with even a fundamental concept of planning?
 
2007-11-11 04:01:55 PM  
Hey, look at the good job the unions are doing here in Detroit.

I mean, the Michigan auto industry is just booming. People buying quality American cars all over the place, and it's all down to the unions encouraging their members to give it just a little more and improve quality, because it's all about the big picture, not just a little whining. Right?

Seriously, unions are a good thing. But when they are an excuse for laziness and complacency, then they just ain't good.

If there was no UAW (yes, I know, different, but conceptually the same..), would all the auto workers here be exploited, or would the industry be booming and employing hard-working dedicated workers?

As far as I can see, the unions are not always to blame - shriveling, gutless and unimaginative management often have a lot to do with business failure.

In fairness, all I hear out of unions these days is whining; it's almost like they feel they are not doing their job if they don';t biatch at everything the company says.

/just sayin.
 
2007-11-11 04:03:48 PM  
LoL. What leverage does the Union even have? What are they going to do, strike at a plant thats already closing?
 
2007-11-11 04:04:37 PM  
Hiymenator: Yeesh. Life in the "North Country" of NH must suck. I think that was the last mill up and running. I think Berlin is getting a federal prison opened soon, so there's some jobs. Until then, they're SOL.

Why is "North Country" in quotes? Technically, it's the Great North Woods region, for what it's worth. But yeah, life up there sucks. I grew up NORTH of there. The factory in my town will pretty much never close because of various reasons, but life is just terrible, and now it just got worse. Awesome. At least the town will smell better now.
 
2007-11-11 04:05:27 PM  
I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...
 
2007-11-11 04:06:21 PM  
Paper mill gives 4 to 12 weeks pay as severance package. Union says that's not enough...

Paper mill: Ok, you get nothing then.

That is all.
 
2007-11-11 04:07:05 PM  
He said if the mill was making money it wouldn't be closing.

What he said
. Unions can't suck any more from the host if the host doesn't have any more to host.

/Friggin parasites are unions
 
2007-11-11 04:07:17 PM  
klisejo: LoL. What leverage does the Union even have? What are they going to do, strike at a plant thats already closing?

They could drag the (former) owners to court and tie them up for years with nonstop bullshiat lawsuits.

/Unions exist to protect the lazy and the incompetent
//The hardworking and the competent don't need unions
///Prime example: Teachers
 
2007-11-11 04:09:10 PM  
My experience in running union plants is that the unions primary concern is collecting dues. Every business manager I dealt with could care less about the overall state of the workers. They supported individuals to give the illusion of union protection, but in the end just gave in to management.
 
2007-11-11 04:09:11 PM  
d0u9r0: I just hate those nasty 40 hour work weeks and insurance that those horrible unions imposed on us. God knows how much I would love, LOVE to have no vacation time and not be compensated when I lose a limb. I guess i should just be grateful I have anything at all...

I've never been in a union, and none of this has ever happened to me.

50 years ago, maybe. But this isn't 50 years ago. None of that would go away if all unions disappeared. The kind of retard who believes otherwise is the kind of retard who is so worthless that they need a union to tip them over the $10/hr mark.
 
2007-11-11 04:10:13 PM  
Always nice to see the people who chose jobs in supposedly secure fields argue in favor of turning the entire service sector into one giant temporary worker pool. Especially now with that same mentality starting to affect IT, programming, and engineering. Can't wait till the lot of you get another five or ten years experience and are priced out of the market. Here's how it'll go down, the company you're working for will either fold, or just drop you. When that happens you'll go looking for another job with all those 'life-long learner' skills you're so proudly advocating. But just like the capitalist wet-dream you're advocating, no one will hire you, because they can get some 22 year old with the same skill set at half the price. You could whine and beg to get the job at a lower value then your percieved worth, but most places wont want you because it sends a bad message to the rest of the peons.

At that point you'll be begging for a job back in the service sector, but no one there will want to hire you because you're 'over-qualified' and they justifiably believe you'll jump ship as soon as you get a better offer, which is exactly the kind of world you're advocating.
 
2007-11-11 04:11:49 PM  
listverse.com

/buried in Giants Stadium
//thrown into the Gulf of Mexico
///ground up and part of the new Simon & Schuster rice-paper bible
 
2007-11-11 04:13:53 PM  
My my, you Farkers are behind the times.

I distinctly heard no less a personage than the Great Al Gore say, as recently as 1994, that NAFTA would bring good jobs and prosperity back to the United States, increase employment, raise the standard of living, and also provide lots of good jobs in Mexico so there wouldn't be so many illegal aliens coming across the border to steal jobs from low-paid unskilled Americans.

For the record, that is the same Al Gore who has won an Oscar and a Nobel Prize for his "relentlessly scientifically accurate(excuse me while I wipe the vomit off the keyboard; there)" work in alerting the public to the dangers of global warming.

So STFU And GBTW, you have no reason to complain.

Everything's wonderful in the USSA.

\\\ wonderful.

\\ \\ wonderful.
 
2007-11-11 04:14:26 PM  
Both my parents are electricians and both work for a union and I personally think some unions help protect workers and are not just greedy assholes.

My mom tells me that many companies in the area go to non-union work at first, and then realize its not being done correctly and that their building's electric isnt working properly. Then they have to call in the union workers to fix everything, costing them more money than it would have if they just did it right in the first place.

Don't generalize that all unions suck. Company management can be just as greedy and stupid as anyone else.
 
2007-11-11 04:15:01 PM  
potee: Prime example: Teachers

I'm glad to see you learned to read and write considering the incompetence of your teachers. My wife is a teacher and the school union does squat for her. It's sad that people like you blame the teachers for what is essentially the call of school boards made up of mostly parents. Things are so bad sometimes that my wife considers quitting and going on to other things, which is sad because she really is in it for the kids.
 
2007-11-11 04:16:01 PM  
LowbrowDeluxe: But just like the capitalist wet-dream you're advocating, no one will hire you, because they can get some 22 year old with the same skill set at half the price.

Here's a hint: If there are 10 other people living on the same block as you who can do the exact same thing as you and would gladly take your position at work, you're probably not worth much. It doesn't matter if you can flip the fark out of some hamburgers. Stop biatching when you put in your 40 hours and bring home a paycheck for 180 bucks. Learn something new.

If you can't learn something new, resign yourself to mediocrity.
 
2007-11-11 04:19:51 PM  
Yeah, this brings out all the union-bashers.

However, here in Ontario, that offer wouldn't even meet the legal minimums - it's one week for every year worked, to a maximum of 26 weeks. This is in addition to the required notice period (1-8 weeks, depending on the length of employment - 8 weeks for 8 years or more, down to 1 week for 3 months-1 year of service). You can work out the notice period, but the severance has to be paid out in cash.
 
2007-11-11 04:19:52 PM  
OZZ: I wish we could do away with all unions.

Working 14 hours per day seven days a week is awesome.

Child labour is even better.

Why can't we return to our conservative values?


Child Labour is good if your talking about the sex industry.
 
2007-11-11 04:22:40 PM  
I am in a skilled trades union so I am getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2007-11-11 04:27:27 PM  
bitteroldman: evil management

i said incompetent, not evil.

you fail at reading comprehension.
 
2007-11-11 04:30:52 PM  
In civilised countries, there are employment regulations that state that redundancy must be at least 1 week's salary per year worked.
 
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