Submittard did not RTFA

Technically it only covers armed contractors, so our Kung-Fu Squads can still karate-chop random Iraqi civilians for offenses, such as 'looking all terroristy' or 'poorly cut jib'.

Well, considering that the DoD is the only agency in Iraq that is actually doing anything worth a flying fark...

I can see why they want to do this. Doesn't seem that extreme, though I think it might cause some problems for the contractors and their accountability to the department that they are there to protect. These guys are paid to protect diplomats; if they fark up, the diplomat would have to report them to their superiors, who in turn report to the DoD, who go through their own process to get the issue resolved. It is just an increase in size of the bureacracy.

Most military folks I've heard from are all for this.

"Slapdash"???

Mercenaries such as Blackwater contractors have no honor. Putting them under military control doesn't change that.

If the military wants direct control over the mercs hired to protect our assets, it should assign its own personnel to protect said assets. Problem. Farking. Solved.

Lessee, when they work for our gubmint, they are "armed contractors". But what are they when they work for someone else, what's that word, could it be MERCENARIES?

I can bet that the soldiers of fortune currently in Iraq would drop a loaf at the idea of actually being subject to any level of fire discipline.

This isn't the first time the military has taken control of contractors: Link (new window)

She has ordered new rules for the private guards who are hired to protect U.S. diplomats. They include increased monitoring and explicit rules on when and how they can use deadly force. The steps were recommended by a review panel that Rice created after a deadly Sept. 16 shooting involving Blackwater USA guards.


Soooo, we're JUST now doing this in year 4 of the occupation?

I blame Bush

Great, so now our own military can be held accountable when shiat hiats the fian....

/Godspeed everyone over there...

Silly_Sot: Lessee, when they work for our gubmint, they are "armed contractors". But what are they when they work for someone else, what's that word, could it be MERCENARIES?


My favorite is "ambush" vs. "pre-emptive strike"

They are not mercenaries, they are just performing military duties, according to this: Link (new window)

/but the independent panel says they aren't.

Ultimately, don't they all report to the executive branch? State dept and military?

damitjim: Ultimately, don't they all report to the executive branch? State dept and military?

I think technically they report to the executive branch, but Cheney's super secret 4th branch gets to consult.

wmoonfox: If the military wants direct control over the mercs hired to protect our assets, it should assign its own personnel to protect said assets. Problem. Farking. Solved.

Agree .. however it will never happen as it would actually SAVE us money (which sets a bad precedent... after all this war is not about WMDs or liberation or none of that crap, it is simply about routing as much money as possible to corporations including those working in Iraq).

damitjim: Ultimately, don't they all report to the executive branch?

My concern would be whether they report to anyone at all. Sure, they get paid to be there. But who do they really answer to, other than their own corporate bosses? What mechanisms are in place to control what they do?

Silly_Sot: Lessee, when they work for our gubmint, they are "armed contractors". But what are they when they work for someone else, what's that word, could it be MERCENARIES?

Well considering that for the most part they are only armed guards, yeah I think contractors is a good way of putting it.

The contractors do not go on patrols, they don't assault buildings, they just guard buildings, and people.

DROxINxTHExWIND: Soooo, we're JUST now doing this in year 4 of the occupation?

Well, it hasn't been newsworthy until now, right?

Obviously Blackwater doesn't want to have to answer to the government in any official manner and since they've got a lot of friends in the administration, the administration wasn't too keen on that either. Now that it's become a mainstream issue, steps have to be taken to give the appearance of the government taking control. Of course, it's extremely unlikely anything will actually change in practice, but the press eventually will either declare the problem solved or just let it drift away next time some 20-ish celebrity shows her cooch "accidentally".

Silly_Sot:
I can bet that the soldiers of fortune currently in Iraq would drop a loaf at the idea of actually being subject to any level of fire discipline.

Yeah, no kidding. I can just imagine these guys working really well under military command:



1. wear a f%$king helmet, morans.
2. no raping and no pillaging, I don't care what's "in your contract".

Silly_Sot: Lessee, when they work for our gubmint, they are "armed contractors". But what are they when they work for someone else, what's that word, could it be MERCENARIES?

I can bet that the soldiers of fortune currently in Iraq would drop a loaf at the idea of actually being subject to any level of fire discipline.
They're fighting for the United States, of which they are citizens, so they wouldn't be mercenaries. Isn't someone only a mercenary when they're fighting for a country of which they aren't a citizen? I'm thinking the most accurate would be a militia.

I don't know. Maybe we should put them under the Federal Environmental Protection Agency, or perhaps the Department of Agriculture.
No Such Agency: Silly_Sot:
I can bet that the soldiers of fortune currently in Iraq would drop a loaf at the idea of actually being subject to any level of fire discipline.

Yeah, no kidding. I can just imagine these guys working really well under military command:



1. wear a f%$king helmet, morans.
2. no raping and no pillaging, I don't care what's "in your contract".


It's anti-American and downright communistic to say that a corporation doesn't have the right to do this or that, be it shooting civilians or r4ping & pillaging. It's the free hand of the market.

If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.

If you see a guy walking down your street wearing a backwards baseball cap and holding a machine-gun there is a good chance your property value is less than what you're looking for.

I think the military should be controlled by these guys. Maybe they could wear backwards upside down visors and paint lightning bolts on all the guns. We would have the coolest looking army on earth!

moving to put all armed contractors operating in combat zones under military control

Woo, if I were a contract worker I'd be looking for a new job right now.

dwrash: If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.
========================================

Or, if Bush hadn't started the war.


/B...b...but

The U.S. needs to hire some Hessian "armed contractors".

wmoonfox: If the military wants direct control over the mercs hired to protect our assets, it should assign its own personnel to protect said assets. Problem. Farking. Solved.

QFT. The whole point of hiring mercenaries is so that they can do things that those under military command can't do without being held accountable. But since these idiots got caught claiming the spoils of war and farked up the whole system, now we have to have someone accountable do the job, and it might as well be those who have already signed up.

dwrash: If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.

Why go back that far?

If this administration hadn't decided to embark on a fruitless war and aimless occupation, you wouldn't need private contractors.

dwrash: If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.

Weak

dwrash: If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.

If Al Gore had not invented the internet then you wouldnt be able to look like a douche on it. You're a douche on it.

hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed

Contractors are needed to do all the jobs that military people are too farking stoopid to do, which is pretty much any job that requires an IQ above 80.

Which is why putting them under military control would suck total ass. It simply doesn't work to have a total dumbass bossing around a relative genius.

gradatim


Arent they former military? What-did they get IQ infusions or something?

How many blackwater soldiers does it take to protect the 100 or so diplomats at any given time?

180,000 seems to be the number our government thinks can convince the American people that our wars can be fought with small armies and few soldier deaths.

The fall of Rome is in part due to the mercenaries that were hired for protection because they couldn't get enough Roman soldiers. Anyone who reads history knows Romans flourished for thousands of years before their need for a private army brought about the fall of Rome. I doubt the U.S.A. will last five hundred.

The Prince: Chapter 12 How Many Kinds Of Soldiery There Are, And Concerning Mercenaries

I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed. Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you.

Granted the modern system of governance and the unique nature and contraints of the Iraq conflict create a rather unusual (and unforeseen style of conflict from Machiavelli's point of view back in 1513). But the fact that he knew using soldiers of fortune generally caused counter-productive results still makes me wonder how Bush ever thought using armed contractors would ever be a great strategy?

ACryer: Arent they former military? What-did they get IQ infusions or something?

I believe you can get a boost like that using a substance that gradatim pulls out of his ass.

You people need to calm down. This is all political nonsense.

The issue here is that to get into the bodyguard typre schools the military has, you have to have some heavy pull. Why are captains in the Marine Corps going to High-Threat Personnel school? Because it's cool. The reality of it is that they will never, ever use it because Captains are never on PSD's! The military refuses to train the right grade for the job.

Plus, the military isn't in the business of protecting the State Department. If I'm running a battalion of Marines in Iraq, do I want to give up a platoon to go protect some State Department wonks on a tour when it doesn't help me accomplish my assigned mission? Hell no! I can't spare the bodies, and the law of the land says I can't just TAD a crew of bodyguards without massive paperwork and training. It's just not feasible. Not to mention the State Department and DoD are two distinct entities.

Result: Private Military Contractors. Don't believe the hype when it comes to "OMG they are killerz OMGWTFBBQ!!1!!!eleventy".

Blackwater isn't known for hiring the best. They're just the biggest. There are countless other contractors over there on different contracts with 10 times the professionalism: Mine removal, EOD, convoy protection, etc. Forcing all them under military control will make many of them unable to do their job (esp. EoD and mine removal), ultimately resulting in more hardship for the Iraqi people.

As an aside, I love how many people I meet have something to say about the Iraq war and culture and military life and everything else who have NO EXPERIENCE WHATSOEVER with any of them. I tend to not comment on it, but I have this moveon.org whackjob next to me in my English class who insists on asking me "Don't you think the war is wrong? Don't you blah blah blah...". Just shut up, ok? I don't want to talk about it, and if I did, it wouldn't be with an 18 year old political science major who thinks she has the answers. Moron.

--Savoir-Faire

How much longer until the military controls all of us? Has anyone given this any serious thought? Everybody wants to know what hell we're doing there anymore. Well, the best way to get promoted in the military is to have combat experience. Maybe the point of all of this was to build up an officer core to be padded out with drafties when the time comes to declare martial law. Of course it would take the American people accepting a major loss of liberty with some ridiculous piece of legislation like, say, the Patriot Act. But this could never happen in the United States now could it? There is no possible way we've all been duped by the government into accepting our own fate as subjects of the new regime, right?

dwrash: If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.
Fortunately, Rumsfeld is gone and his replacement, Robert Gates, will(has already begun to) rectify this error. It's good to have a light and mobile military, but you're only screwing yourself over when you remove troops instead of, or in addition to adding/altering military hardware.

Too bad Gates wasn't Secretary of Defense all along. At least he's in charge now. The only possible benefit is that Iraqis now know first-hand that Al-Qaeda and Co. are the worst sort of human dreck and they'll never find a safe haven in Iraq. Unfortunately, a lot of Iraqis and US soldiers (and allied soldiers) died before that message got through.

Chuckus: But the fact that he knew using soldiers of fortune generally caused counter-productive results still makes me wonder how Bush ever thought using armed contractors would ever be a great strategy?

I think it's because you hold the mistaken impression that Bush actually gives a fark. If you look at his personal history you'll see that he's gotten to where he is first, by peddling his father's influence and then, once he has some, his own. His live has been one failed venture after another we he managed to fall upwards time after time. Why would the presidency be any different? Look at his cronies and who their friends are and what companies they either own or sit on the board of. Everything's just fine as far as Dubya's concerned.

heavymetal: The U.S. needs to hire some Hessian "armed contractors".

with big funny hats. and drunk ones too.

No, no no. You're DOING IT WRONG. If you put the private armies under the direct control of the military then our government will ACTUALLY BE RESPONSIBLE for their illegal acts instead of just being complicit!

dwrash: If Clinton the Gingrich House hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.

/9th grade civics FTW

We are in IRAQ so corporations can profit? George Bush wasn't really elected? Someone's getting away with murder during a war?

madgonad: Or at least under the UCMJ.

I do not want those farktards afforded the privilege of being subject to the UCMJ.

They do not wear the uniform, they are not part of the U.S. military.

They do not have that right. They are mercenaries and should be subject to the law of the land in which they're located.

<b>dwrash:</b> <i>If Clinton hadn't cut our military to its lowest levels in recent history private contractors would never have been needed in the first place.</i>

What a load. No wonder America is sick of the Republican Party. They can't accept responsibility for anything ever.

Chuckus - BECAUSE HE DOESN'T CARE