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(ESPN)   ESPN's Top 50 moments in MLB League Championship history. AKA, how David Ortiz makes every other team his biatch   (sports.espn.go.com) divider line 52
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1561 clicks; posted to Sports » on 11 Oct 2007 at 10:57 AM (6 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-10-11 07:00:55 AM
Hey! Where's "Little roller up along first; BEHIND THE BAG! It gets through Buckner! Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!"? -- Game 6, 1986 WS
 
2007-10-11 07:15:35 AM
damageddude: Hey! Where's "Little roller up along first; BEHIND THE BAG! It gets through Buckner! Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!"? -- Game 6, 1986 WS

Probably isn't there because it's a list of LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES moments.

Just a hunch.
 
2007-10-11 07:18:45 AM
Yanks_RSJ: Just a hunch.

I thought I saw a few WS moments .... never fark before coffee
 
2007-10-11 07:34:37 AM
damageddude: Yanks_RSJ: Just a hunch.

I thought I saw a few WS moments .... never fark before coffee


You're forgiven... You can bet ESPN has the World Series list ready to go in about 10 days.
 
2007-10-11 08:10:11 AM
I searched on YouTube and was saddened not to be able to find Francisco Cabrera's hit in the 1992 NLCS. How can that not be on there?

I tried every combo of name I could think of on that play but the best I could come up with was a highlight video of the 1991 & 1992 Braves.

:(
 
2007-10-11 08:23:04 AM
WoodyHayes: I searched on YouTube and was saddened not to be able to find Francisco Cabrera's hit in the 1992 NLCS. How can that not be on there?

MLB.com (new window)
 
2007-10-11 08:29:32 AM
Yanks_RSJ: MLB.com (new window)

You rock, danke!
 
2007-10-11 08:58:20 AM
Crap. David Ortiz's postseason stats used to be almost exactly his regular season stats, thus providing a great example of "He's not some magical Mr. Clutch. He's just very good all the time."

Stupid small sample sizes. Now it's all screwed up because of the ridiculous ALDS he just had (5-for-7, 2 HR, 6 BB).

David Ortiz, career: .289/.384/.559, 4937 PA
David Ortiz, postseason: .320/.417/.600, 175 PA

To be fair, all his postseason PA are from 2002-2007, after he went from "Meh." to "ZOMG!" as a hitter. I'm too lazy to figure out what his combined 2002-2007 line is, but it looks pretty close to his postseason line.
 
2007-10-11 09:04:52 AM
There is an AWFUL lot of Red Sox wanking in that list, but I'm not surprised considering the source.

Ahh, AJ. I love that friggin' rules lawyer.

Though it was amazing when Pujols hit that homer and broke Brad Lidge.

And, as always, god bless the 2003 Florida Marlins.
 
2007-10-11 10:14:40 AM
soze: There is an AWFUL lot of Red Sox wanking in that list, but I'm not surprised considering the source.

Well, they did pull off the single greatest comeback in LCS history. So you figure a few moments would be included in this list.
 
2007-10-11 11:05:08 AM
There is an AWFUL lot of Red Sox wanking in that list, but I'm not surprised considering the source.

and No. 12 and No. 2 are against the Sox

/quit your biatching
 
2007-10-11 11:07:25 AM
19. Jeffrey Maier interferes with Derek Jeter's fly ball

I remember being so pissed of when that happened. I was only a young Yankee hater at that point but I couldn't believe that it had happened. I learned that day that sports are not always fair. The feeling was cemented when the refs handed the Lakers the Western Conference Championship against the Trail Blazers but that is a rant for a different thread.
 
2007-10-11 11:07:50 AM
As a Cardinals fan, I was pretty excited by Adam Wainwrights K of Carlos Beltran last year, especially considering how, up until that point (with the Astros), Beltran had always hit the Cards pitching extraordinarily well. Alas, it took a rookie who had been closing for only a month and was pitching in what was, to that point, easily the biggest game of his life: Game 7 of the NLCS, 2 down, and the bases loaded with a mere 3-1 lead in Shea Stadium. To me, that was even more exciting or relieving than seeing him fan Inge in the World Series.
 
2007-10-11 11:09:55 AM
WTF, people, where's my pic of Pujols lidging Brad Lidge?
 
2007-10-11 11:11:30 AM
Ahh, AJ. I love that friggin' rules lawyer.

And I was at that game! Most of us were looking at each other in the bleachers and wondering "what the hell just happened?" Good on AJ for taking the base; he had the same thing happen against him in a game he caught in August of that year, so knew the rule.
 
2007-10-11 11:14:28 AM
WoodyHayes: I searched on YouTube and was saddened not to be able to find Francisco Cabrera's hit in the 1992 NLCS. How can that not be on there?

Copyright Infringement.
 
2007-10-11 11:16:04 AM
I'm a Red Sox fan, and even I think it's a little much when two of the top 50 moments are from the same freakin' game. I think the steal is a bigger moment than the walk-off in Game 4 of the '04 LCS, and Papi's walk-off single in Game 5 is bigger than either of those.

The thing I love about the Pujols/Lidge pic is that the bat's still in his hand as he's starting down the line, as if to say "Yeah I might just bust some heads along the way while I'm at it. What are you gonna do? Nuthin', that's what."
 
2007-10-11 11:17:57 AM
soze: There is an AWFUL lot of Red Sox wanking in that list, but I'm not surprised considering the source.

I don't know why your boyfriend puts up with you... ;P
 
2007-10-11 11:21:15 AM
toonz: I don't know why your boyfriend puts up with you... ;P

See: "red sock wanking"
 
2007-10-11 11:28:47 AM
damageddude

Hey! Where's "Little roller up along first; BEHIND THE BAG! It gets through Buckner! Here comes Knight and the Mets win it!"? -- Game 6, 1986 WS

I'm sure it's been covered, but you just don't get it, do you?
 
2007-10-11 11:29:30 AM
Nobody ever talks about Bill Miller's forgotten steal.

Chimp ninja, give it up you stat monger. Ortiz made those hits, it doesn't matter how many at bats it took to get them because it ended the game. That is clutch. You keep trying to force this theroy that players don't perform better in the playoffs despite the video footage.
 
2007-10-11 11:30:02 AM
Ahhhh...Francisco...We hardly knew ye and yet will never forget ye.
 
2007-10-11 11:34:55 AM
GimpyNip: Bill Miller

spelled Muellllller
 
2007-10-11 11:38:20 AM
They made a typo by putting #1 as #2. That is all.
 
2007-10-11 11:39:48 AM
img227.imageshack.us
 
2007-10-11 11:41:41 AM
Ah, asleep at the keyboard, pronounced Miller though. No excuse, though. Doesn't change the fact it has been forgotten.
 
2007-10-11 11:44:04 AM
GimpyNip: Chimp ninja, give it up you stat monger. Ortiz made those hits, it doesn't matter how many at bats it took to get them because it ended the game. That is clutch.

B-b-but what about all the PAs where he didn't come through? Those were taped, too, and they also contributed to the Red Sox winning or losing. Was he "unclutch" then, but then only "relearned" clutch in times for these moments?

Selective memory.

Ortiz is just more proof that if you give a very talented hitter enough chances, some will be memorable. The Sox are smart enough to stack the front of the lineup with high-OBP guys to make sure Ortiz gets a lot of chances with men on. He's ended games during the regular season, too.
 
2007-10-11 11:46:35 AM
cache.boston.com
 
2007-10-11 11:47:12 AM
lunchinlewis

They made a typo by putting #1 as #2. That is all.

The Braves were down...The Yankees weren't...The Braves had two outs...What were there in the Yankee game...none?

They got it right.
 
2007-10-11 12:05:50 PM
David Ortiz, 2002-2007, regular season: .298/.394/.597 (3710 PA)
David Ortiz, 2002-2007, post-season: .320/.417/.600 (175 PA)

Three extra hits in 41 games! Whee!

To turn the argument around:
What if David Ortiz really was a .320 hitter, but all the (statistically insignificant, of course) difference implies is that he doesn't try his hardest all the time?

Roughly as stupid as the "David Ortiz has mythical powers that turn him into SuperOrtiz in October" argument, isn't it?

He's a professional. Like most professionals, he tries his best on a daily basis. "Clutch" is something people make up because it helps them tell exciting stories. Give any hitter of Ortiz's raw ability 175 chances, and on average he'll do just about the same, give or take a few hits.
 
2007-10-11 12:17:10 PM
Tito Landrum is angry, very angry.
 
2007-10-11 12:24:32 PM
chimp_ninja:
Turning the concept in a new direction, do you believe it's possible for players to perform worse in clutch situations?

Me? I believe that it's beyond possible, that it's likely. But as these performers are professionals, the effect is miniscule.

I also believe that, in general, the pressure affects pitchers and hitters virtually equally.

Now when a slightly-affected pitcher faces a less-affected hitter, the result is (more often than ordinarliy expected) in the hitter's favor. That's what the talking heads call "clutch." It works the other way too. See Rivera, Mariano.
 
2007-10-11 12:26:58 PM
GimpyNip: Chimp ninja, give it up you stat monger. Ortiz made those hits, it doesn't matter how many at bats it took to get them because it ended the game. That is clutch. You keep trying to force this theroy that players don't perform better in the playoffs despite the video footage.

Clutch is simply the ability not to choke. Ortiz doesn't choke. He doesn't get better. He stays the same.

If you want to get even stupider about it, his OBP is actually lowest in the 9th inning. It's highest in the 5th.
 
2007-10-11 12:37:56 PM
Turning the concept in a new direction, do you believe it's possible for players to perform worse in clutch situations?

Yes, it what makes Trever Hoffman not Mariano Rivera.
 
2007-10-11 12:58:23 PM
Daniels: Turning the concept in a new direction, do you believe it's possible for players to perform worse in clutch situations?

Yes, it what makes Trever Hoffman not Mariano Rivera.


Cool, now we just have to convince Rob Neyer. I usually agree with SABR, just not on this point.
 
2007-10-11 01:00:29 PM
I am Jack's user id: Turning the concept in a new direction, do you believe it's possible for players to perform worse in clutch situations?

Me? I believe that it's beyond possible, that it's likely. But as these performers are professionals, the effect is miniscule.


Bigger stat nerds than I have made Herculean attempts to quantify "clutchness". The exact answer varies a little on what methods you use (What is 'clutch'?), but the general conclusion is that there is a very small ability, but it isn't useful to a manager. In other words, if you somehow knew Player A is "clutch", it probably means something like +.002-.004 is batting average. How often does that impact a pinch-hitting decision?

It's even sillier with Ortiz. The correct offensive postseason strategy involving David Ortiz in any scenario is the same as the regular season strategy: Never sub him out unless it's for a pinch-runner in a desperation scenario, never ask him to bunt or steal, etc. Pitching to Ortiz? Bring a lefty if it's practical, but don't sub out a really good righty for a crappy lefty. Etc.

One important conclusion is that the "clutch" guys vary from year to year, which is what you'd expect from a random process. Look at Ryan Howard:

2006: .313/.425/.659
2006, RISP, 2 out: .247/.473/.481 (110 PA)

2007: .268/.392/.584
2007, RISP, 2 out: .377/.568/.922 (111 PA)

In 2006, look how "anti-clutch" he was! (The OBP spike is largely due to 21 IBB, which is hard to chalk up as "clutch".) But then in 2007, did he "learn" "clutchness"? This pattern is pretty common, no matter how you define "clutch".

It's all sample sizes. If it was real, you'd expect to find sensible trends like "Older players get more clutch", or "Every year, this specific player's SLG goes up like 100 points with RISP and 2 outs."

Think about "May batting champions". David Ortiz has 175 postseason PA, which is what regular players have around the last week of May or so. If some usually-good hitter (say, Ichiro) was hitting .400 in mid-May, would you say "This is definitely the year!", or would you say "Meh. Neat story, but call me in August."
 
2007-10-11 01:00:54 PM
Damn near ripped out appendicitis stitches for #3.
Damn near ripped out vocal cords for #1.
I hope Eric Gregg is roasting on a spit in hell for #35.
 
2007-10-11 01:09:38 PM
Fark me if I'm wrong...mostly from memory...

David Ortiz has 11 career walk-offs. The career record is 12 by a few guys including Mantle, Musial, Foxx, and Ruth. Ortiz has done it in about half the number of games.

To me, that's clutch. YMMV.
 
2007-10-11 01:10:51 PM
Frank Robinson also had 12. Didn't mean to leave him off.
 
2007-10-11 01:11:44 PM
And by walk-offs, I meant walk-off home-runs.
 
2007-10-11 01:16:17 PM
chimp_ninja:
It's all sample sizes. If it was real, you'd expect to find sensible trends like "Older players get more clutch", or "Every year, this specific player's SLG goes up like 100 points with RISP and 2 outs."

Think about "May batting champions". David Ortiz has 175 postseason PA, which is what regular players have around the last week of May or so. If some usually-good hitter (say, Ichiro) was hitting .400 in mid-May, would you say "This is definitely the year!", or would you say "Meh. Neat story, but call me in August."


I'm with ya there. And just as small sample sizes are insufficient to compile useful data, you shouldn't expect to parlay statistically insignificant differentials into a significant payoff on a future small sample (i.e. the next AB).

Case in point -- the Byrd/Sabathia and Wang/Mussina arguments in this very forum earlier in the week. A lot of us are stats geeks, and a lot of us wrote off the Indians FOR A ONE GAME SAMPLE.

I can't stand managers that ignore newer metrics like WHIP, OPS (really), P/PA, RC/27, and Zone Factor -- I and had to live through two years of Jim Tracy -- but going stricly by the book, even the "new" book, is almost as bad.

I bet I won't get any argument from you when I say that Wedge outcoached Torre.
 
2007-10-11 01:23:30 PM
www.tcoletribalrugs.com

One of my favorite sports pics of all time and I'm not a Cardinals fan at all.
 
2007-10-11 01:28:18 PM
-1 subby

/a DH is a joke
 
2007-10-11 01:48:29 PM
the fact that they do not have the white sox four complete games by their starters in 2005 makes this list useless.
 
2007-10-11 02:08:48 PM
Just for giggles (and yeah, I know, sample sizes)

Ortiz in potential walk-off situations, through 9/12/07

all-MLB: 24/52, 8 BB, 10 HR, .462/.533/1.077/1.610
w/Boston: 18/32, 8 BB, 9 HR, .563/.650/1.438/2.088

yikes
 
2007-10-11 02:30:15 PM
As it has been said, I guess you have to define clutch. Obviously it doesn't mean a player comes through all the time, just that he has come through often enough for people to take notice. Ortiz fits that bill.

Also, to say Curt Schiling doesn't magically hit another hear in the playoffs is nuts. That guy lives for the big game and if you want stats, how about the best ERA in history of anyone with 10 decisions or more in the post season.

Magic?
 
2007-10-11 02:49:08 PM
Won't argue with No. 1. I remember watching that game live, knowing I'd just seen a classic. Still get kinda breathless watching it, and I couldn't give fark-all about the Braves.

My all-time favorite game, though, is Game 7 of the '91 WS. That incredible 8th inning... wow...

/bonus for the extra-classy handshake at the plate between Lonnie Smith and Brian Harper before Smith's leadoff at-bat
 
2007-10-11 05:16:46 PM
Clegacy: -1 subby

/a DH is a joke


Yeah, I know that while I was watching Ortiz have one of the single greatest playoff series performances ever, I was thinking "What a farking clown, his defensive skills at first base are average at best!"

While everyone else was cheering, I sat moodily pining for the sight of Derek Lowe awkwardly flailing at breaking balls.
 
Azz
2007-10-11 06:32:15 PM
how about when the Yankees performed the phantom tag on Offerman?
 
2007-10-11 10:45:17 PM
2. Aaron Boone's 11th-inning home run, Game 7, 2003: Pedro ... Grady ... three scoreless innings from Mike Mussina ... two home runs from Jason Giambi ... three scoreless innings from Mariano Rivera ... in the end, the Yankees beat the Red Sox. Again. The victory was so emotional, Joe Torre cried on the field as the team celebrated.

how about a nice giant * next to this one, mr Juiceambi?
 
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