So say that the Kurds get their own country, would the terrorist bombings in Turkey cease?

I would like to hope so, and if so, then why not let them have their country carved out of Northern Iraq?

hudsucker proxy

/and what's the word boomaze is looking for then?

No no. It's Anti-Zionism according to Tats. Its how he's programmed.

Tatsuma
Being an anti-Zionist means that you do not believe that Jews have a right to a homeland where they govern themselves.

I don't agree. Now that Jews have a homeland, Zionism refers to Israeli expansionism. Israel should stop at the Green Line (increasing settler population in the West Bank, in contravention of international law, is why I place the responsibility for that mess primarily on the Israeli government).

fuhfuhfuh
So say that the Kurds get their own country, would the terrorist bombings in Turkey cease?

I would like to hope so, and if so, then why not let them have their country carved out of Northern Iraq?


They've biatched for a homeland for years. Don't see why not. We just set up our bases (which are never leaving the ME by the way) in Kurdistan. Nobody could do shiat to the Kurds or us without getting bombed into the stoneage. They wouldn't. Sure, all around motherfarkers will be killing each other, but when haven't they?

boomaze
He likes to throw the anti-semite card around like it actually means anything. I'm more anti-Abraham, his arsehole sons policy is still farking up the region.

UnkleKrakker: hudsucker proxy: UnkleKrakker: hudsucker proxy:
It's not so much a Kurdish homeland that the Turks (and Iran, Syria etc etc) oppose, but even any semblance of an autonomous region in Iraq for the Kurds. As for establishing it without bloodshed, that would be up to the Kurds, Turks, etc. Who knos, diplomacy might even work


Middle Eastern Diplomacy, letting the world down since 1921.

Not Middle eastern, western european. For all the saber rattling, Turkey still wants to stay in NATO, and they would like one day to be in the EU. That's a pretty good bit of leverage.\
Keeping them from invading would be relatively simple, post a couple US battalions along the border. Could use UN, but if anybody started shooting, we'd have to go there anyway.

So your Kurdistan would be mostly an autonomous region within Turkey? I think Turkey would not want to lose their land and sovereignty in that region and I belive europe would not want to pressure them and drive the Turkish people even mor into the hands of the fundamentalist side. Europe is pushing their luck as is, and the Turkish people are starting to understand the pretty girl they help out all the time might never sleep with them.

Also, I'm afraid it would be PKK freedom land, especially if they can hide behind a line of UN or US troops. I don't think the Kurdish movement will be content with an autonomous region in Turkey.

It's just not feasible, at least not for the next twenty years..

Tatsuma
czarangelus

Could this one person with two member names?
Or a schizoid personality, each personality having a unique member name.

North Jersey suspicion, you are never an ex-Guido

Thats an 827
Tatsuma
czarangelus

Could this one person with two member names?
Or a schizoid personality, each personality having a unique member name.

North Jersey suspicion, you are never an ex-Guido

No. Two zealots.

Tatsuma

If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, you're a Zionist, PERIOD.


Right right. And if you don't believe they have the right to exist ANYWHERE THEY WANT and do what they want you are and anti-zionist.

Tatsuma:
You said that you are an anti-zionist. Anti-zionism by definion means that you do not believe that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state where Jews govern themselves

Those leftover Arabs in Israel are a G*d Damned inconvenience, aren't they?

boomaze: Many arabs hate the Kurds due to their assiting/being assisted by the Israeli's. I cannot help but assume this is the case with him. Nothing else makes since, therefore he is a fraud and a racist asshole.

I thought many Arabs hated the Kurds because they have a tendency to speak weird languages and follow weird religions? I didn't know it had anything to do with Jews. It certainly doesn't for me. I just don't believe in partitioning several countries to no apparent benefit to result in a huge war.

hudsucker proxy:

So your Kurdistan would be mostly an autonomous region within Turkey?

No, back up a bit. Inside Northern Iraq, where the Kurds are already nearly autonomous anyway. Not Turkey.

boomaze: hudsucker proxy

/and what's the word boomaze is looking for then?

No no. It's Anti-Zionism according to Tats. Its how he's programmed.

Well, I feel he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'm just curious as to his his source

gorgor: boomaze
He likes to throw the anti-semite card around like it actually means anything. I'm more anti-Abraham, his arsehole sons policy is still farking up the region.

In all honesty, I've not seen him call boomaze an anti-semite

hudsucker proxy
Well, I feel he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'm just curious as to his his source

would you give czar the benefit of the doubt? Cause you are dealing with two sides of the same coin

In all honesty, I've not seen him call boomaze an anti-semite

Maybe not yet :)

Tatsuma
If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, you're a Zionist, PERIOD.

But no rational person thinks Israel shouldn't exist, so why not repurpose an otherwise useless word?

Tatsuma: hudsucker proxy: I've seen you use this definition many times. It's not what I get from my dictionary. Where's it from?

/and what's the word boomaze is looking for then?

It's from any dictionary or definitions I've ever seen. It's quite simple:

Zionism pre-1948: Movement based on the principle that the Jews have a right to a homeland and self-governance
Anti-Zionism pre-1948: Belief that the Jews do not have a right to a homeland and self-governance

Zionism today: Belief that Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state
Anti-Zionism today: Belief that Israel does not have a right to exist as a Jewish state.

boomaze: No no. It's Anti-Zionism according to Tats. Its how he's programmed.

Yeah, and "anti-semites includes all semites lol". I'm sorry you hate the English language but that's what anti-Zionism is.

Moreover, you yourself declared many times Israel doesn't have the right to exist as a Jewish state.

RanDomino: I don't agree. Now that Jews have a homeland, Zionism refers to Israeli expansionism

No it's not.

If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, you're a Zionist, PERIOD.


from the online dictionary:

Zi·on·ism (z-nzm)
n.
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.
Main Entry: Zi·on·ism

mirriam webster:

Zionism
One entry found for Zionism.
Pronunciation: 'zI-&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
: an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

/Look, I'm sure there will be sources that support your definition of zionism, but it seems an undefendable position to say yours is the one, true and only definition of the word zionism.

UnkleKrakker: hudsucker proxy:

So your Kurdistan would be mostly an autonomous region within Turkey?

No, back up a bit. Inside Northern Iraq, where the Kurds are already nearly autonomous anyway. Not Turkey.

Heck, you've convinced me. Let them give it a shot. Iraq's probably gonna be a few different countries soon, why not let the Kurds grab a slice.

/ I still think it will be bloodshed.

RanDomino
But no rational person thinks Israel shouldn't exist, so why not repurpose an otherwise useless word?

Well, no rational person, perhaps. But we are talking about boomaze here.

boomaze: hudsucker proxy
Well, I feel he deserves the benefit of the doubt. I'm just curious as to his his source

would you give czar the benefit of the doubt? Cause you are dealing with two sides of the same coin

I would and I often do. Actually, I came into this thread because I saw he was being ganged up on, and unfairly so in my opinion.


In all honesty, I've not seen him call boomaze an anti-semite

Maybe not yet :)

We'll just have to wait and see...

I'm off to have a smoke and then I'm off to bed.

Good Night all, it was fun.

hudsucker proxy: /Look, I'm sure there will be sources that support your definition of zionism, but it seems an undefendable position to say yours is the one, true and only definition of the word zionism.

I think Tatsuma's definition of Zionism is correct. Where the confusion lies is in how far does the support of statehood goes. I think the term (with a long history as Tatsuma pointed out) has become conflated with an idea somewhere close to "Israeli nationalism".

This is important in that you gotta make yourself absolutely clear so that you can critique the current government's policies, but not attacking the "right of the Jewish people to a homeland and self-governance". Using the term "Zionist" without clarity on it's definition gives the impression that one is critiquing both - which is most likely nobody's intention.

Can we agree that the term Zionist/Zionism is ambiguous?

Tatsuma
Tell that to boomaze

Yes yes, I want Israel driven into the sea, i told you. farkin jooossss!

Damnhippyfreak

This is important in that you gotta make yourself absolutely clear so that you can critique the current government's policies, but not attacking the "right of the Jewish people to a homeland and self-governance". Using the term "Zionist" without clarity on it's definition gives the impression that one is critiquing both - which is most likely nobody's intention.

No, the truth is, with people like Tats, you say anything bad about Israel, you are attacked. It's the Modus Operandi Of Many Israeli backers. You simply cannot question or you are equal to a nazi. By even saying this, I am a murder...of teh joos

Tatsuma:

hudsucker proxy: : an international movement originally for the establishment of a Jewish national or religious community in Palestine and later for the support of modern Israel

that's what I said

At the risk of sounding like a pre-schooler, No it's not:

Tatsuma
If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, you're a Zionist, PERIOD.

Damnhippyfreak: hudsucker proxy: /Look, I'm sure there will be sources that support your definition of zionism, but it seems an undefendable position to say yours is the one, true and only definition of the word zionism.

I think Tatsuma's definition of Zionism is correct. Where the confusion lies is in how far does the support of statehood goes. I think the term (with a long history as Tatsuma pointed out) has become conflated with an idea somewhere close to "Israeli nationalism".

This is important in that you gotta make yourself absolutely clear so that you can critique the current government's policies, but not attacking the "right of the Jewish people to a homeland and self-governance". Using the term "Zionist" without clarity on it's definition gives the impression that one is critiquing both - which is most likely nobody's intention.

I guess we agree we need to refine our definitions, because I for one could de very well without the above discussion. We've had this same to and fro on fark about five times a week for a good few years.

I nominate the word "anti-any-type-of-jewish-homeland" if someone wants to say what tatsuma thinks boomaze is saying.

/really off to bed now...

hudsucker proxy
Tatsuma
If you believe that Israel has a right to exist, you're a Zionist, PERIOD.

...

/Look, I'm sure there will be sources that support your definition of zionism, but it seems an undefendable position to say yours is the one, true and only definition of the word zionism.

Uh, both your definitions mention re-establishing a Jewish homeland in Palestine...which is Isreal. So...yeah, Zionism = Isreal has a right to exist.


RanDomino
But no rational person thinks Israel shouldn't exist, so why not repurpose an otherwise useless word?

This isn't necessarily true and I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. While Isreal is an ally of the US their formation and some of their activities even today are neither productive nor humane. Outside forces hold as much or more of the blame but that doesn't completely excuse the actions of Isreal's military or government.

Look at it this way. The UN put forward a plan (originally it was the British, but they bailed because they couldn't get people to agree) to create Isreal but the Arab nations (whose territory it was at the time) rejected it. If you're an Arab during that time all you see if a big western organization coming in and saying "yeah, so you don't own this anymore, give it to the Jews." You're then ignored when you say "uh, no?", a revolt happens, all the nearby nations team up to attempt to stop it but get their butts kicked because of substantial support from the UN and US.

Granted, that analysis is just as one sided as saying "The Jews just wanted a home land but the big bad Arabs wanted to kill them all so we *had* to help" but there you go. Read up on your history, it's interesting stuff.

YoungSwedishBlonde: Can we agree that the term Zionist/Zionism is ambiguous?

kind of.
link
ahh, fark it, this will take forever

heres an index, enjoy

Later guys. I'm off to my Hitler Youth Rally. Well, that and bong hits and God of War.

Tatsuma: hudsucker proxy: At the risk of sounding like a pre-schooler, No it's not:

support of modern Israel = support of its right to exist.

Look, you're obviously of genius level intelligence, but the above simply does not compute.


Israel has done plenty of shiatty things and will do plenty of shiatty things in the future. Israel is far from perfect.

Someone is not an anti-semite simply because they criticize some of Israel's policies.

I'm glad to hear you say this. I mean, It's mostly pretty clear you think this, but sometimes I you make us doubt you. It's nice to have you write it explicitly.

czarangelus:
...in response to uprisings, rebellions, and revolutions. [Turkey, slaughter etc]

So what would you suggest the Turks do in response to the continuing bombings?

Surreal. It's like some kind of bizzarro alternate universe where you're replying to others with the same sorts of statements others aim at you during Israel/Palestinian flamewars threads. It must feel strange backing the big evil occupier.

/I feel like I've been taking crazy pills!
//apologies for bringing up a different subject, but dayum

Damnhippyfreak: This is important in that you gotta make yourself absolutely clear so that you can critique the current government's policies, but not attacking the "right of the Jewish people to a homeland and self-governance".

Slight clarification: I think that a definition should include "right of the Jewish people to a homeland that includes at least part of the 1967 border region, and possibly Jerusalem."

Hell, I bet Ahmadinejad is a big fan of an independent Jewish homeland... assuming it's on Mars.

hudsucker proxy: I'm glad to hear you say this. I mean, It's mostly pretty clear you think this, but sometimes I you make us doubt you. It's nice to have you write it explicitly.

I keep meaning to make a Venn diagram to illustrate the distinction, but I never get around to it.
It would consist of three circles: A large one, "Anti-Israeli Government," and completely within that circle a small one that says "Anti-Semites" with a third small circle representing Jews that partially overlaps the larger circle (and maybe just touches the small one).
The problem is that without fail, all anti-Semites are also anti-Israel. It's too tempting NOT to be. It's a no-brainer. A framework already exists, and they can use the carnage to justify their hatred. Anti-Israeli sentiment is not anti-Semitic, but hardcore anti-Semites DO exist, in substantial numbers. All B = all A, but all A does not = B.

Without getting into the Kurdistan pro-or-con debate -- if the fact that our invasion of Iraq has resulted in the distinct possibility of war with a fellow NATO state isn't proof positive that said invasion was quite possibly one of the top-five foreign policy blunders by any country, nation, empire, kingdom, or principality in recorded history, then I don't know what would be.

Let's post some pictures of Armenians that perished in the Genocide. I will never trust Turkey until they issue a public apology for committing those atrocities.

I declare this thread over. Please stand for the singing of our national anthem, then fark off.



Kazakhstan greatest country in the world.
All other countries are run by little girls.
Kazakhstan number one exporter of potassium.
Other countries have inferior potassium.

Kazakhstan home of Tinshein swimming pool.
It's length thirty meter and width six meter.
Filtration system a marvel to behold.
It remove 80 percent of human solid waste.

Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan you very nice place.
From Plains of Tarashek to Northern fence of Jewtown.
Kazakhstan friend of all except Uzbekistan.
They very nosey people with bone in their brain.

Kazakhstan industry best in the world.
We invented toffee and trouser belt.
Kazakhstan's prostitutes cleanest in the region.
Except of course Turkmenistan's

Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan you very nice place.
From Plains of Tarashek to Northern fence of Jewtown.
Come grasp the might penis of our leader.
From junction with the testes to tip of its face!

ForTheWin: The UN put forward a plan (originally it was the British, but they bailed because they couldn't get people to agree) to create Isreal but the Arab nations (whose territory it was at the time) rejected it. If you're an Arab during that time all you see if a big western organization coming in and saying "yeah, so you don't own this anymore, give it to the Jews."

But the British controlled the region. And prior to British control it was a colony of the Ottoman Empire, with much of the land owned/leased out by absentee Turkish land owners. So it's not as if there was a sovereign nation there in the sense that we'd think of a nation today.
I think a better analogy would be "We're going to give the Arabs back almost all of this land except for this little slice here."

FarkingUpTheWrongTree: anti-Semites are also anti-Israel.

Theres a thread around here where Tatsuma said something along the lines of ..antisemites..like Jews to stay in israel..

or something.

/don't wanna find it.

it was something like
some antisemites ....words.. like Jews to stay in Israel

or want all the Jews to be in Israel

something like that

FarkingUpTheWrongTree
I think a better analogy would be "We're going to give the Arabs back almost all of this land except for this little slice here."

Valid point, but I still doubt they should be very happy about that. Not to mention it was basically "ok, we can't get people to agree. Proto-Isreal, start some shiat and we'll back you up."

FarkingUpTheWrongTree: So it's not as if there was a sovereign nation there in the sense that we'd think of a nation today.

Nationalism as it were, was still formative until the early 20th century. As in, what we think of a nation state really didnt take its shape until then. Interestingly enough, this was when these movements were working themselves into their diametric oppositions in the Palestine Mandate area

Tatsuma: Party Boy: Theres a thread around here where Tatsuma said something along the lines of ..antisemites..like Jews to stay in israel..

"Remember, not all anti-zionist are anti-semites, but all anti-semites are anti-zionists"?

Theres a thread around here where you call some anti-Semites people who want Jews to stay in Israel.

go and/or stayTatsuma: Party Boy: Theres a thread around here where you call some anti-Semites people who want Jews to stay in Israel.

ah yes, it was about Nasrallah and I said that there was a small portion of people who were pro-Zionists for either of two reasons: it's a place to send all the Jews of their country and/or it's a good place to herd Jews in order to make it easier to kill them

fine by me. I am not in the mood for archival work at the moment
/headache
//waiting for advil to kick in

RanDomino: But no rational person thinks Israel shouldn't exist,

Ehh. I mean, I agree, but you're calling millions of people irrational.

I'm reminded of this scene:
Kyle: Anybody who thinks 9/11 was a conspiracy is a retard.
Cartman: Oh, really? Well, did you know that over one-fourth of people in America think that 9/11 was a conspiracy? Are you saying that one-fourth of Americans are retards?
Kyle: Yes, I'm saying one-fourth of Americans are retards.
Stan: Yeah, at least one-fourth.

Party Boy: Tatsuma said something along the lines of ..antisemites..like Jews to stay in israel..

*head scratch*
Maybe the ones who just want (non-Israeli) Jews out of their neighborhoods?

ForTheWin: Valid point, but I still doubt they should be very happy about that. Not to mention it was basically "ok, we can't get people to agree. Proto-Isreal, start some shiat and we'll back you up."

That and they came up with this ridiculous checkerboard map with Jewish/Arab territory. Kind of hard to make either nation work with that kind of setup.
IMO British mideast policy in the early/mid twentieth century makes this whole Iraq invasion look wise and well-considered in comparison.
Still, it's worth mentioning that the only difference between Israeli Arabs and some Palestinians is which family member decided to move (in 1947/48) and which family member decided to stay (as well as who wound up on which side of the border when the fighting was over).
The primary lie I see levelled against early Zionists is that they came along like stormtroopers and ethnically cleansed the land of all Arabs (ask Czarangelus about this, he'll be happy to tell you). Israel wouldn't look anything like what it does (demographically, culturally, etc) if that were the case.

It's on guys.

TMJ is confirming large levels of artillery, rocket strikes and helicopter deployment in the northern Iraqi city of Aktkul in the Binazai province.