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(MSNBC)   Turkey preparing to invade Iraq. Formation of a fecal-oscillatory rotor matrix is imminent   (msnbc.msn.com) divider line 379
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16809 clicks; posted to Main » on 09 Oct 2007 at 4:09 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-10-09 12:50:45 PM  
Hmmmmmm....Preparing Turkey
 
2007-10-09 12:56:05 PM  
See what we started? Now any ol' NATO/UN country can do whatever the hell they want.

That's why we started the UN, to avoid these kinds of things.

Now you see what happens when we refuse to take it seriously.
 
2007-10-09 12:58:19 PM  
whidbey: SNow you see what happens when we refuse to take it seriously.

Because 17 resolutions over a 13 year period wasn't enough time...
 
2007-10-09 12:58:50 PM  
Uh yeah, they're more interested in wiping out the Kurds than Saddam was. It's ok though. Turkey lets us pipe oil through their country and use their airspace. Saddam was being a greedy bastard.
 
2007-10-09 12:59:48 PM  
Ah man! I ate a pile of turkey at Thanksgiving last weekend. I'm still drowsy and flatulent from it.
 
2007-10-09 12:59:53 PM  
jasonmicron: whidbey: SNow you see what happens when we refuse to take it seriously.

Because 17 resolutions over a 13 year period wasn't enough time...


Uh they complied with a bunch of them. Go look up most of what UN inspectors found.
 
2007-10-09 01:00:31 PM  
This has been on and off for a long time. The Turks are scared crapless about an independent Kurdistan on its borders and Kurdish Separatists in Turkey are only making matters worse by committing acts of terrorism/vandalism/crime/etc and then fleeing into northern Iraq where they are sheltered by the Kurds.
 
2007-10-09 01:00:50 PM  
Oh, sorry. I BLAME THE US & BUSH!!!

Better?
 
2007-10-09 01:01:12 PM  
Seems like a fowl idea to me.
 
2007-10-09 01:04:45 PM  
So ... if we decide to take out "a threat", shouldn't TUrkey be allowed to take out a threat to their country?
I bet the republicans would have no problem invading Mexico if there was a nationalist movement trying to take back Texas after they seceded from Mexico.
Seriously, what would we do if all the mexicans in the southern U.S. decided that they wanted to be part of North Mexistan after a legitimate vote?
We'd be all over that like flies on shiat.

Turkey is only doing the same thing we did except they actually border on Iraq so they have a more legitimate claim to invade to counter "a threat to national security".
 
2007-10-09 01:07:43 PM  
dillenger69: So ... if we decide to take out "a threat", shouldn't TUrkey be allowed to take out a threat to their country?

Not if it will increase the threat to our country.

If it further destabilizes in Iraq, that goes against our interests, which means that we should work to prevent that.
 
2007-10-09 01:08:45 PM  
jasonmicron: whidbey: SNow you see what happens when we refuse to take it seriously.

Because 17 resolutions over a 13 year period wasn't enough time...


You are a lousy apologist.
 
2007-10-09 01:10:19 PM  
What's really sad is Turkey used to be a secular democracy and one of America's most steadfast friends in the Middle East. Now they keep electing Islamist parties, view America as a super villain, and are about to invade Iraq against our wishes because they're sick of bombs going off in Turkish cities. Of course, the Kurdish area of Iraq was the last part that hadn't devolved into pre-industrial misery due to the war, but Turkey is about to change that.

I wonder how Turkey will respond to Bush attacking Iran.
 
2007-10-09 01:10:58 PM  
jasonmicron: whidbey: SNow you see what happens when we refuse to take it seriously.

Because 17 resolutions over a 13 year period wasn't enough time...


For what? It wasn't enough time to plan a proper exit strategy or even check that the basic facts behind our reasons for invading were accurate.
 
2007-10-09 01:11:22 PM  
dillenger69: So ... if we decide to take out "a threat", shouldn't TUrkey be allowed to take out a threat to their country?

No one is saying they aren't allowed to -- we are just trying to keep them from doing it both publicly and privately.

Speaks: This has been on and off for a long time. The Turks are scared crapless about an independent Kurdistan on its borders and Kurdish Separatists in Turkey are only making matters worse by committing acts of terrorism/vandalism/crime/etc and then fleeing into northern Iraq where they are sheltered by the Kurds.

This is the right analysis.
 
2007-10-09 01:12:40 PM  
czarangelus: What's really sad is Turkey used to be a secular democracy and one of America's most steadfast friends in the Middle East. Now they keep electing Islamist parties

Islamist parties? Not much. The parties they are electing are hardly Islamist in any way, they merely disagree with the strict division of religion and state in Turkey. It doesn't mean they are electing the Taliban.
 
2007-10-09 01:16:47 PM  
KaponoFor3:
Islamist parties? Not much. The parties they are electing are hardly Islamist in any way, they merely disagree with the strict division of religion and state in Turkey. It doesn't mean they are electing the Taliban


Well, that's true. But Turkey has had a real separation between church and state until events in the last few years (read: George W.) I always respected the government for turning the Hagia Sofia into a museum to respect both religious heritages represented by that site, despite Christians making up at most like 2% of Turkey's population. They have a real commitment to religious pluralism in Turkey, and it's unfortunate that the balance is becoming rocked by the incompetence of certain foreign powers that is destabilizing the country.
 
2007-10-09 01:17:31 PM  
DNRTFA...

How far south will they go? If they take the northern oil fields will that change some views?
 
2007-10-09 01:19:06 PM  
submitter: Formation of a fecal-oscillatory rotor matrix

Nice.
 
2007-10-09 01:21:10 PM  
Speaks: This has been on and off for a long time. The Turks are scared crapless about an independent Kurdistan on its borders and Kurdish Separatists in Turkey are only making matters worse by committing acts of terrorism/vandalism/crime/etc and then fleeing into northern Iraq where they are sheltered by the Kurds.

Why not? They still refuse to even acknowledge the Armenian Genocide (as does the US, by the way), so why should they worry about it? No one will hold them accountable for their actions.
 
2007-10-09 01:31:52 PM  
Hey, Kurds, it was nice to know you. You'll be missed.
 
2007-10-09 01:32:27 PM  
Has Ufuk Uras issued a statement yet?
 
2007-10-09 01:33:36 PM  
Speaks: This has been on and off for a long time. The Turks are scared crapless about an independent Kurdistan on its borders

An independent Kurdistan would most likely have access to most or all of the oil revenues of the sixth largest oil reserve in the world. That much oil revenue could be used to support the militant activities of the PKK, or even be used to pressure Turkey economically into giving Turkish Kurds greater autonomy.

Turkey now finds itself in an unenviable position. If they invade Kurdistan they will be able to prevent long term hostilities with an independent Kurdistan. But such an invasion would lose them a lot of face internationally, and likely cause them to be ejected from NATO and the EU.

If they don't invade Kurdistan they will have to make significant concessions and possibly reparations to a cultural ethnicity that they have been attempting to force into submission ever since the days of the Ottoman Empire.
 
2007-10-09 01:34:25 PM  
Ha ha. Bush's oil buddy is about to lose his Kurdish oil deal.
 
2007-10-09 01:39:25 PM  
Code_Archeologist: If they don't invade Kurdistan they will have to make significant concessions and possibly reparations to a cultural ethnicity that they have been attempting to force into submission ever since the days of the Ottoman Empire.

Neither Iran nor Turkey will let an independant Kurdistan happen.

I personally think that they deserve their own country.
 
2007-10-09 01:40:59 PM  
All I know is...

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople...

And I think Turkish delight is about one of the most terrible things I've ever put in my mouth.
 
2007-10-09 01:41:09 PM  
Tatsuma: Hey, Kurds, it was nice to know you. You'll be missed.

The Turks have been trying to wipe out the Kurds since WWI... what makes you think that this will be any more successful? Besides I thought you of all people would be one to support an independent Kurdistan... since they have been recruited by Mossad as intelligence resources against Syria, Iraq, and Iran for decades.
 
2007-10-09 01:41:44 PM  
Tatsuma: I personally think that they deserve their own country.

I stand corrected
 
2007-10-09 01:43:18 PM  
Code_Archeologist: The Turks have been trying to wipe out the Kurds since WWI... what makes you think that this will be any more successful?

I don't actually think they will be successful, since they haven't even wiped out their own Kurds yet, but I'm sure they'll at least try.

Besides I thought you of all people would be one to support an independent Kurdistan... since they have been recruited by Mossad as intelligence resources against Syria, Iraq, and Iran for decades.

and I certainly support an independent Kurdistan, as I said in my last post
 
2007-10-09 01:43:20 PM  
Tatsuma:
I personally think that they deserve their own country.


Uhm, why? Or is this some kind of ethnic ideology of yours, that everyone who can claim themselves as an ethnic group deserves their own country? I guess Britain should dissolve into Anglos, Welsh, Scots, et c. And of course, there's the more Spanish Mexicans in the north, and more indigenous Mexicans in the south, so Mexico should partition too.

Perhaps I should coin the term "ethnic Californian" here and now so I can get some kind of military support for a future terrorism campaign?
 
2007-10-09 01:46:51 PM  
czarangelus: Uhm, why?

There are many factors, such as the fact that they've had a well-establish country in that area for a long time, and the fact that Kurds were and are currently persecuted by the Turks, the Iraqis and the Iranians, and most likely this persecution will not stop, at least on a domestic level, until there is a safe Kurdistan where Kurds can take refuge.
 
2007-10-09 01:48:34 PM  
czarangelus: I guess Britain should dissolve into Anglos, Welsh, Scots, et c.

You mean like Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and England?
 
2007-10-09 01:50:01 PM  
SchlingFo: czarangelus: I guess Britain should dissolve into Anglos, Welsh, Scots, et c.

You mean like Scotland, Ireland, Wales, and England?


Awesome
 
2007-10-09 01:51:12 PM  
Tatsuma:
There are many factors, such as the fact that they've had a well-establish country in that area for a long time


They haven't had an independent country since the 1500's, according to the Wiki. They might have a degree of cultural autonomy, but it's not the same thing. They've been someone's fief for a long time.

Kurds were and are currently persecuted by the Turks, the Iraqis and the Iranians

Off the top of my head, the biggest unprovoked persecution I can think of was when the Turkish government banned Kurdish language speaking and publications. That's a pretty severe provocation, but they backed off after a backlash. There won't be a Kurdistan peacefully - does what persecution they currently face (probably not worse than any ethnic minority in an average large, organized country) justify the kind of bloody campaign that would be required to obtain it?
 
2007-10-09 01:54:43 PM  
czarangelus: Uhm, why? Or is this some kind of ethnic ideology of yours, that everyone who can claim themselves as an ethnic group deserves their own country?

Because they actually have a historic claim to the region that dates back to the days of the Greek and Roman Empires. And the allied powers in WWI promised the Kurdish people an independent Kurdistan in the treaty of Treaty of Sèvres in exchange for forming an insurgent force to fight Ottoman's from within their own borders.
 
2007-10-09 01:56:21 PM  
czarangelus: They haven't had an independent country since the 1500's, according to the Wiki. They might have a degree of cultural autonomy, but it's not the same thing. They've been someone's fief for a long time.

That, on it's own, is not a reason strong enough for an independent country, true. However, since they have been persecuted by the people who conquered them since them only for being Kurds, NOW it becomes a reason strong enough

Off the top of my head, the biggest unprovoked persecution I can think of

Oh fark you. You're a disgusting person.

So, what, the Kurds aren't brown enough or muslim enough for you to defend? 'The biggest unprovoked persecution'. What the fark.

Whole villages have been destroyed, they've been raped, maimed, tortured, slaugthered by the Turks and the Iraqis and the Iranians.

Do you know ANYTHING about how they lived under Saddam?

You're a miserable human being.
 
2007-10-09 01:59:29 PM  
Tatsuma:
So, what, the Kurds aren't brown enough or muslim enough for you to defend? 'The biggest unprovoked persecution'. What the fark.

Whole villages have been destroyed, they've been raped, maimed, tortured, slaugthered by the Turks and the Iraqis and the Iranians.


...in response to uprisings, rebellions, and revolutions. We here in America had a bit of a secession movement, once. General Sherman's March to the Sea? The fact that these governments responded to secessionist violence with violence shouldn't be a surprise or a particular outrage.
 
2007-10-09 02:03:57 PM  
czarangelus: We here in America had a bit of a secession movement, once. General Sherman's March to the Sea?

And Wounded Knee Massacre, the Trail of Tears, and countless others that never got named. If you are going to mention one instance of the US government's brutal suppression of an uprising, its only fair to mention them all.
 
2007-10-09 02:04:19 PM  
It solves a lot of Bush's problems if he sacrifices the Kurds.

Less haggling over Kurdish oil -- it becomes Turkish oil.

The US is no longer blamed for ethnic cleansing in Kirkuk.
 
2007-10-09 02:07:46 PM  
Code_Archeologist:
And Wounded Knee Massacre, the Trail of Tears, and countless others that never got named.


Well, I see that as American conquest, rather than political secession.

But yeah, there's no good way to give Kurds an independent country without plunging another 2 or 3 countries into war. And it would be ugly.

Control_this It solves a lot of Bush's problems if he sacrifices the Kurds.

But then he gives up the only vaguely peaceful part of Iraq. And if American troops and Turkish troops were standing toe to toe in occupation, even if they're allies there is bound to be an accident sooner or later.
 
2007-10-09 02:10:57 PM  
czarangelus: But yeah, there's no good way to give Kurds an independent country without plunging another 2 or 3 countries into war. And it would be ugly.

All we would need to complete ignite the conflagration would be an archduke getting shot... and then its a party!
 
2007-10-09 02:21:11 PM  
czarangelus: And of course, there's the more Spanish Mexicans in the north, and more indigenous Mexicans in the south, so Mexico should partition too.

Actually there are Mayan rebels in southern Mexico that want more autonomy. Why not?
 
2007-10-09 02:42:43 PM  
Tatsuma: You're a miserable human being.

He's ok with war, genocide, and terror tactics, but only if you're Muslim or Arab.
 
2007-10-09 02:44:53 PM  
palladiate: He's ok with war, genocide, and terror tactics, but only if you're Muslim or Arab.

... then it's merely justified resistance
 
2007-10-09 02:52:39 PM  
palladiate: He's ok with war, genocide, and terror tactics, but only if you're Muslim or Arab.

I dunno, I think having bombs dropped on your village by planes is pretty damn terrorizing. What is a terror tactic, anyway? Shouldn't "Shock and Awe" qualify?

vernonFL: Actually there are Mayan rebels in southern Mexico that want more autonomy. Why not?

I'm deeply suspicious of countries that justify themselves by ethnicity or religion. 100% of the population will never be that ethnicity or religion, and will be bound to be subject to persecution. If the Kurds get their own country, mark my words - they'll just persecute ethnic minorities in Kurdistan in their own turn.
 
2007-10-09 02:54:57 PM  
KaponoFor3: ... then it's merely justified resistance

Maybe he just thinks the Turks are organizing resistance to the evil, occupying Kurds! You know how much aid the US sends to the Kurds every year? About $3.50!
 
2007-10-09 03:00:50 PM  
czarangelus: 100% of the population will never be that ethnicity or religion, and will be bound to be subject to persecution. If the Kurds get their own country, mark my words - they'll just persecute ethnic minorities in Kurdistan in their own turn.

Oh good. We'll just let Turkey exercise their Armenian option then. What's the point in beliving in self-determination if they're all the same anyway?

Damn brown people can't be expected to not kill each other. Might as well let the Turks or Persians or Arabs kill the Kurds, since they'll just kill people too.

Remember, if we let the Turks kill off the Kurds, then that's one less group Iran will have to worry about draining their "Kill Israel" budget.
 
2007-10-09 03:05:08 PM  
palladiate:
Oh good. We'll just let Turkey exercise their Armenian option then.


Who proposed this? When? You're simply pulling things out of your ass. Yes, Turkey is going to invade Northern Iraq in response to repeated and continuing bombings, committed by the PKK, all over Turkey. I'm not sure it's a particularly good idea, but no one has mentioned genocide yet. You supported America's war on Afghanistan, yes? How is this different?


Damn brown people can't be expected to not kill each other. Might as well let the Turks or Persians or Arabs kill the Kurds, since they'll just kill people too.


Again... what the Hell are you talking about? Iran is going to kill all the Kurds? What?

How is not supporting independence for Kurdistan (which would plunge several nations, one a NATO ally, into a bitter civil war) the same thing as accepting genocide against them? Either explain or stop spouting such reprehensible nonsense.
 
2007-10-09 03:19:28 PM  
czarangelus: Yes, Turkey is going to invade Northern Iraq in response to repeated and continuing bombings, committed by the PKK, all over Turkey. I'm not sure it's a particularly good idea, but no one has mentioned genocide yet. You supported America's war on Afghanistan, yes? How is this different?

I'd like to point out the similarity of Turkey possibly invading Kurdistan with Israel possibly invading Gaza/West Bank in response to "repeated and continuing bombings". Something tells me you'd rationalize one as justified and condemn the other.
 
2007-10-09 03:25:22 PM  
wrapple: DNRTFA...

How far south will they go? If they take the northern oil fields will that change some views?


Those are part of the deal.
 
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