shipud
Gesundheit

TFA says the trunk is half rotted and infested with moths. If it isn't cut down it'll fall down in the next few years.

Just chop it down and make some memorial toothpicks out of it.

She'll get over it.

fernt: is revisionist stuff is expensive! Sixty bucks for an Irving book on Amazon!! Holy crap:

Here's one for $7.99. No less accurate:

The difference between Stalinist purges and the Holocaust is that the latter was a deliberate attempt to expunge a very specific group of people from Europe, possibly with a view of killing all such people in the world if they could find a way. Stalin wasn't looking to kill every single Russian.

Genocide is particularly vicious because you're not only destroying individual lives, you're destroying an entire people.

Take Copernicus for example:

"We take his ideas for granted. Yet, for the people living then the Earth was the centre of God's Creation. For them, it was a truly frightening idea that we might live on just another planet orbiting around the Sun. Even more so because this idea was strictly forbidden by the Roman Catholic Church. In fact, many people who doubted the official church doctrine had been thrown in jail, tortured, or even burned at the stake."

I'm not equating Copernicus with Irving (whom I have not read and don't plan to invest the time or money). But the whole "forbidden to question" aspect has a familiar ring to it.

Thanks Kar98

HOLY CRAP! 975 pages!

Sheesh.

How many trees would that...oh...too close to the original topic. Sorry.

OK I'm looking in the historical NY Times and I see an article, reprinted from the Chicago Tribune.

July 20 1921. "BEGS AMERICA SAVE 6,000,000 IN RUSSIA: Massacre Threatens All Jews as Soviet Power Wanes, Declares Kreinin, Coming Here For Aid." Kreinin claimed that "scores" of Jews were killed in pogroms in small towns & villages, many Jewish families were trying to flee Russia, and as a consequence many Jews were dying of exposure.

So some guy claimed there were 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in 1921, and they're at risk because of pogroms (or dying while fleeing pogroms). How does this negate roughly 6,000,000 Jews from Germany, Poland, etc. being killed by the Nazis more than a decade later?

fernt: I'm not equating Copernicus with Irving (whom I have not read and don't plan to invest the time or money).

Do they have libraries where you live?

fernt

Try here:

Link (zeig heil pop)

Classic Subby.

/Conjugel visits? Not that I know of...

Where's the link?

Link (new window)

Now that I think about it, maybe a lot of those Russian Jews fled to Western Europe and ended up dying in a Nazi concentration camp years later.

\Holocaust and other genocides - in my top 10 reasons for being an atheist.

Tatsuma: No, it farking wasn't. The Red Cross estimated in 1946 that number at at least 6M Jews.



Translation:
Red Cross: "Whut? We never said anything of the sort."

Egalitarian: Now that I think about it, maybe a lot of those Russian Jews fled to Western Europe and ended up dying in a Nazi concentration camp years later.

\Holocaust and other genocides - in my top 10 reasons for being an atheist.

That's what happened. Poland, Germany, and Austria were popular destinations for settling after fleeing Russian pogroms.

Being an atheist doesn't protect you from getting genocided, though. Doesn't stop you from committing one, either, as Pol Pot demonstrated.

How many died at Auschwitz?

When I was a child, they told us 4,000,000.

It turns out that this was more than twice an exaggeration.

Tatsuma: Whoopty Whoo The Precious Bongo Boy: Wait, so this tree has to stay up because of a fake diary? How odd.

gorgor: Anne Frank was a fictional character.

Anti-semitism is so funny!

Tatsuma, you should just get over yourself. You are such a downer.

Tatsuma: Hmm, just wearing a black hat and dressing like an Orthodox Jew doesn't necessarely means they are Rabbis...



'Not necessarily Rabbis..'

Here's another one:
Aug.9, 1914
"JEWISH PEOPLE THE POOREST ON EARTH: Legend of Their Wealth a Myth in the Mass, Says Israel Cohen in Economic Analysis."

The article compares Jews living in towns in Western Europe and their relative prosperity to Jews living in Central/Eastern Europe where most of them were much poorer.

"... In Russian and Rumania, which alone count more than six millions, the principal cause of the widespread misery is the elaborate code of mediaeval laws, growing in number and severity each year, which restrict their residence to particular localities and hinder them in the free choice and exercise of trades and professions, and the inevitable congestion in the towns produces and overcrowded labor market and ruinous competition."

So here we have this 6 million-ish figure of Jews in Russia and Rumania in 1915 . . . how does this negate a similar amount of Jews being killed by the Nazis later on?

Egalitarian: Holocaust and other genocides - in my top 10 reasons for being an atheis

Like Pol Pot, Kemal ataturk, and Stalin

Facetious_Speciest: When I was a child, they told us 4,000,000.

It turns out that this was more than twice an exaggeration

Well, as long as you named your source...

Shipud Stalin not believing in God doesn't have any bearing on me. He also wore pants, it's not gonna stop me from wearing pants.

gilgigamesh

"THEY."


"THEM."

FTFY

Egalitarian: Shipud Stalin not believing in God doesn't have any bearing on me. He also wore pants, it's not gonna stop me from wearing pants.

Strawman much?

The point being (read teh following slowly so may understand), that religion is not necessarily a motivating force behind mass murders and genocides.

NY Times, July 3 1944:

"INQUIRY CONFIRMS NAZI DEATH CAMPS: 1,715,000 Jews Said to Have Been Put to Death by the Germans Up to April 15" by Daniel T. Brigham, by telephone to the New York Times.

The article says this number is for Auschwitz & Birkenau combined. Many Jews died en route to the camps.

"Totals compiled two months ago show the following number of Jews 'eradicated' in the two camps, excluding hundreds of thousands slain elsewhere:

Poland . . . 900,000
Netherlands . . . 100,000
Greece . . . 45,000
France . . . 150,000
Belgium . . . 50,000
Germany . . . 60,000
Yugoslavia, Italy and Norway . . . 50,000
Bohemia, Moravia and Austria . . . 30,000
Slovakia . . . 30,000
Foreign Jews from various camps in Poland . . . 300,000"

Article then goes on to say 30% of the 400,000 Jews (120,000) in Hungary had been killed there or en route to the camps.

Note there were other concentration camps, the people who died en route to Auschwitz and Birkenau weren't counted in the table above, and Jews were also killed in the Warsaw ghettos.

Whoopty Whoo The Precious Bongo Boy: soyousay: In all fairness, she was like 10. Are we really going to take the document of a 10 year old as being factually accurate? Even if it was her writing? Kids have vivid imaginations.

In fairness, I am pretty sure she wrote about being horned up for some kosher dong. I don't think 10 year olds get greasy.

A good troll needs to maintain some kind of consistency, be it devotion to Britney Spears/Paris/Lindsay, hatred of the police/worship of the police, or whatever. You can't be friends to minorities and the oppressed in other threads and then bash Anne Frank here. You're blowing it, WWTBB!

Shipud take your strawman and shove it. Look at all the evil in the world today. Can you honestly tell me a loving caring personal God is sitting by while a 3 year old is raped on camera? Did He sit by and watch Jews get gassed by the bushel basket, all full of compassion and love and ultimate power?

Seriously, tell me the theological justification for this and why an omniscient, omnipotent god would set up a world such that this shiat happens.

I didn't say religion was or wasn't a motivating factor in massacres, just said such occurrences are part of my motivation for being an unbeliever.

\there could be an intelligence creator force or entity out there
\\but It sure doesn't give a crap about you or me, or all the suffering in the world

shipud

Well, as long as you named your source...

The Auschwitz camp is out of bounds for some reason...?

Or were you simply unaware that they had to change their numbers in the late eighties/early nineties?

Egalitarian: take your strawman and shove it.

I did. But you created a new one.

Look at all the evil in the world today. Can you honestly tell me a loving caring personal God is sitting by while a 3 year old is raped on camera? Did He sit by and watch Jews get gassed by the bushel basket, all full of compassion and love and ultimate power?

No, but again, that is not the point.

FYI, I'm an atheist myself. But I do not think that I am a better person for it, or that atheists have any kind of moral or superiority over religious people.

Facetious_Speciest: The Auschwitz camp is out of bounds for some reason...?

Or were you simply unaware that they had to change their numbers in the late eighties/early nineties?

"they" again...

Egalitarian: I didn't say religion was or wasn't a motivating factor in massacres, just said such occurrences are part of my motivation for being an unbeliever

Then I misunderstood you, and I humbly apologize.

Whiny diary of little girl + guilt over the holocaust = profit.

shipud

"They" are the people at Auschwitz. You are being purposefully obtuse.

Iconodule: Whiny diary of little girl + guilt over the holocaust = profit.

♫ There's no business ♪ like shoa business ♫

shipud

Then I misunderstood you, and I humbly apologize.

You can't say that on here!
*head explodes*

The 'ballpoint pen' or 'biro' thing is garbage. NONE of the diary passages were written with a ballpoint.

A couple of loose pieces of paper that were stuck inside the diary were written with a ballpoint pen - notes during transcription or somesuch.

If you can't explain away crematoria, mass graves, etc, then pick on a poor girl who died because of her ethnicity/religion, and even at the end still had faith in humanity.

Oh Christ on a raft.
The Holocaust was real.

You gotta be as blind as Anne Frank not to see that.

/Clerks II ftw!

shipud gorgor: 6,000,000 Source:

Adolph Eichmann.

Oh, like he was some kind of expert.

Reminds me of a joke that Janeane Garofalo told when she was subbing for Letterman: something about Eva Braun preferring Eichmann over Hitler because Eichmann was more punctual.

I knew that I was one of only a handful of people who laughed at that - because the rest of them didn't get it.

Hi, Tatsuma. I'm nyil's friend in the fedora and the Garanimals suit.

/my Borsalino's a newsboy, the fedora's a Stetson
//Byrnie Utz's Hats ftw!

Why does that Wiki page say The Dumb Biatch in Hell???
WTF?

Elaine_Bennis
Do you have a link? I don't understand what you are referring to.

I see now.

Probably hacked.

Copper Nail....may be a myth, but some form of poison should work

Have you tried using the stairs in the Anne Frank house?

That place is death trap!