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(Some Guy)   Morans who fill their cars with premium gas "are being conned"   (dailyrecord.co.uk ) divider line
    More: Obvious  
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29728 clicks; posted to Main » on 28 Sep 2007 at 4:48 AM (9 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-09-28 01:54:50 AM  
Which is why it pays to take the time to do the math.

I get further on a dollar's worth of 89 than I do a dollar's worth f 87 octane.

Suck it, Paula Murray.
 
2007-09-28 02:00:13 AM  
The various additives that are present to "clean while you drive" or whatever may have some benefit. However, the higher octane is wasted on most of the cars on the road.

The compression ratio of your engine is fixed, not variable. Higher octane gas will not produce any more compression, so it will not produce any more power. It's capable of more compression, but your engine probably isn't.

If your engine does not "knock" on regular gas, then regular gas is all you need.

*some vehicles, like the VT Toureg, will speed up engine timing to compensate for low octane fuel. So for it, a higher octane gas will result in more power.
 
2007-09-28 02:01:23 AM  
I mean *VW Touareg*
 
2007-09-28 02:56:54 AM  
"But What Car? magazine said drivers who use them expecting big economy gains should think again."

WHO IN THE HELL buys premium/Super gas for the economy? Seriously, did I miss something? This article is a warning for people who purchase Super unleaded to save money. Is there anyone who actually thinks buying a performance fuel will save them money? That's like thinking "I COULD buy 5 or 6 midrange Chevy's, but I think I'll go with the Ferrari because it will save me money."

/TFA is pointless
 
nm
2007-09-28 02:57:52 AM  
I'm going to guess that this is for low compression vehicles.
On properly tuned car designed for 87, you won't get better performance out of 89.
However, on a car designed for 91 or 93 (aka high compression or turbo/supercharged engines), you want to run taht or you will get pinging. Actually, you won't get pinging on a modern car, the ECU will detect it and slow engine timing to prvent pinging. Reducing the timing will lead to worse performance and milage.
Oh and these days all bets are off with ethanol and other additives. My car hates E10 (10% ethanol) and I lose a good 15% or so of my milage on this crap, while other cars may get better milage on E10 depending on how they are designed. On a car designed for 87 and particularly sensitive to ethanol, you would actually get better milage on so called classic premium, which is 91-93 with no ethanol. Whether its cost effective would vary.

Oh and a final note on turbo or supercharged engine if the manufacturer requires premium, its even more important to follow the octane rating.

/Final note (x2), the article notes 97 octane. This is RON. The US uses MON+RON/2 (AKI). The numbers are not comparable. 95RON is about 90 AKI.
 
2007-09-28 03:11:27 AM  
nm: I'm going to guess that this is for low compression vehicles.
On properly tuned car designed for 87, you won't get better performance out of 89.
However, on a car designed for 91 or 93 (aka high compression or turbo/supercharged engines), you want to run taht or you will get pinging. Actually, you won't get pinging on a modern car, the ECU will detect it and slow engine timing to prvent pinging. Reducing the timing will lead to worse performance and milage.
Oh and these days all bets are off with ethanol and other additives. My car hates E10 (10% ethanol) and I lose a good 15% or so of my milage on this crap, while other cars may get better milage on E10 depending on how they are designed. On a car designed for 87 and particularly sensitive to ethanol, you would actually get better milage on so called classic premium, which is 91-93 with no ethanol. Whether its cost effective would vary.

Oh and a final note on turbo or supercharged engine if the manufacturer requires premium, its even more important to follow the octane rating.

/Final note (x2), the article notes 97 octane. This is RON. The US uses MON+RON/2 (AKI). The numbers are not comparable. 95RON is about 90 AKI.


Very well put. I was going to submit something similar and include a comment that Submitter thought it'd be a good idea to call folks morans when (s)he has no idea what an octane rating actually means.

/Octane rating is the propensity of a fuel not to knock
//It's a $4 argument anyway, $0.20 more per gallon in a 20 gallon tank.
 
2007-09-28 03:11:33 AM  
nm
Not sure if you were replying to me or not, but my point was Premium/Super gasolines are meant for high performance vehicles, not for Mom's minivan. Here in the States, they're generally marketed as performance fuels, so anyone who buys them looking for economy is a Moran.
 
2007-09-28 03:24:43 AM  
This is news? The Car Talk guys on NPR have been saying this for years.
 
2007-09-28 03:44:14 AM  
Barnacles!: This is news? The Car Talk guys on NPR have been saying this for years.

Maybe so, but you'd be surprised at how many people don't know. I worked with a guy that put premium gas in his non-turbo ford probe because he was convinced he got more horsepower and mileage out of it. And he was a decently educated person.
 
2007-09-28 04:56:07 AM  
www.dataspew.net
 
2007-09-28 05:01:34 AM  
YupThazMe Rimz.
 
2007-09-28 05:02:56 AM  
nm: I'm going to guess that this is for low compression vehicles.
On properly tuned car designed for 87, you won't get better performance out of 89.
However, on a car designed for 91 or 93 (aka high compression or turbo/supercharged engines), you want to run taht or you will get pinging. Actually, you won't get pinging on a modern car, the ECU will detect it and slow engine timing to prvent pinging. Reducing the timing will lead to worse performance and milage.
Oh and these days all bets are off with ethanol and other additives. My car hates E10 (10% ethanol) and I lose a good 15% or so of my milage on this crap, while other cars may get better milage on E10 depending on how they are designed. On a car designed for 87 and particularly sensitive to ethanol, you would actually get better milage on so called classic premium, which is 91-93 with no ethanol. Whether its cost effective would vary.

Oh and a final note on turbo or supercharged engine if the manufacturer requires premium, its even more important to follow the octane rating.

/Final note (x2), the article notes 97 octane. This is RON. The US uses MON+RON/2 (AKI). The numbers are not comparable. 95RON is about 90 AKI.


I love you. I know of many people who only run 93 octane (turbochargers) and premix on top of it. I myself even run an octane raising premix and don't have a turbo. All the muscle car guys I know only run 93 as well, some even mix in airplane fuel.
 
2007-09-28 05:03:52 AM  
Well no shiat.

Some cars DO require it, though.
Higher octane means that the gas burns LESS easily, which keeps it from detonating before the power stroke. "Knocking and pinging" is caused by the fuel exploding during the pistons compression stroke. This doesn't help fuel economy in the least, but it keeps engines with high compression ratios and aggressive spark timing from blowing up. If you don't need it, don't use it.

This is a non-story for anyone who knows anything about cars.
 
2007-09-28 05:05:34 AM  
lomans:
The compression ratio of your engine is fixed, not variable. Higher octane gas will not produce any more compression, so it will not produce any more power. It's capable of more compression, but your engine probably isn't.

If your engine does not "knock" on regular gas, then regular gas is all you need.


'04 Passat set for 93 octane and it did knock when I didn't have that option available.

But before that car, yeah, regular was fine in everything else.
 
2007-09-28 05:08:35 AM  
lomans: I mean *VW Touareg*

My VW Syncro can run circles around a "Tour Egg"... it doesn't adjust for anything, but premium sure does make a difference, if only in acceleration power.

A few years ago, some dumbass driver dumped an entire shipment of premium into the regular tank at one of my local stations; I was good friends with the manager, and he told me about it, so I let everyone I knew to fill up there for the mext week, until it ran out. That was a great week for us, and a bad week for "Gate Petroleum", since they were not allowed to change the price.
 
2007-09-28 05:10:05 AM  
The more interesting part of that article was the vote at the top right about whether Britain should tighten immigration controls.
 
2007-09-28 05:12:29 AM  
lomans: Higher octane gas will not produce any more compression, so it will not produce any more power. ...

If your engine does not "knock" on regular gas, then regular gas is all you need.


This is kinda true, except with newer vehicles.
Many newer vehicles have knock sensors that will retard timing if it senses detonation, which will decrease power output but keep the engine from pinging. Not sure how much octane that will make up for, but the best advice for most cars is just to go with whatever the owners manual says. If it pings on that grade of gas, then go a step higher, however it probably means that the engine is old and has a lot of carbon deposits.
 
2007-09-28 05:12:36 AM  
I have a high compression engine, so I'm really getting a kick out of most of these replies.

/low octane fuel makes my car retarded
 
2007-09-28 05:14:58 AM  
Gawdzila: Many newer vehicles have knock sensors that will retard timing if it senses detonation, which will decrease power output but keep the engine from pinging.

Except that there has to be at least one detonation before the sensor can detect a detonation and retard (snicker) the engine.

BUT, once you have a detonation, you've already potentially done some minor damage that reduces the overall life of the engine.

In other words, if the manual says use a certain octane level, don't go below that if you want your engine to see 100k+ miles.
 
2007-09-28 05:16:12 AM  
Not only will my car knock on 87 but also 91, luckily 93 works well.

02 TA WS6 sunset orange metallic 11:1 compression, GM hot cam, shaved ls6 heads.

looks like this thumb17.webshots.net

only my rims are black fikse fm/5s and I don't have those silly c5 mirrors.

/I love my car
//bragging :-)
 
2007-09-28 05:22:37 AM  
Many sport(y) cars knock with lower octanes, killing your engine, gas mileage, O2 sensors, knock sensors, etc. My 95 Maxima requires premium, and it is worth every penny. This article is only aimed at people who think premium gas gets better mileage, and that is only the case if it prevents knocking in your car. If your car doesn't knock on regular, run regular, plain and simple.
 
2007-09-28 05:23:12 AM  
shroomtex: Not only will my car knock on 87 but also 91, luckily 93 works well.

02 TA WS6 sunset orange metallic 11:1 compression, GM hot cam, shaved ls6 heads.

looks like this

only my rims are black fikse fm/5s and I don't have those silly c5 mirrors.

/I love my car
//bragging :-)


You have every right to brag. Fikses are teh uber hawtness.

CAR THREAD!
 
2007-09-28 05:24:09 AM  
www.autocult.com.au

It somehow stays looking pretty nice, but the radio is a bit touchy...
 
2007-09-28 05:24:57 AM  
I've got a crappy car that now requires Premium until I get the repairs I need. (Fuel Pressure Regulator and since the regulator is out, my Cat is probably out as well since what smells like unburnt fuel is being dumped through it)

/Stupid car
 
2007-09-28 05:25:59 AM  
Chickan: Many sport(y) cars knock with lower octanes, killing your engine, gas mileage, O2 sensors, knock sensors, etc. My 95 Maxima requires premium, and it is worth every penny. This article is only aimed at people who think premium gas gets better mileage, and that is only the case if it prevents knocking in your car. If your car doesn't knock on regular, run regular, plain and simple.

You say sporty and go on to say Maxima? WTF M8?

I love my rotaries (and they really are sporty). ~9.1:1 ratio is high compression. :D I only need regular, but as stated previously, I do premix with Marvel's Mystery Oil.
 
2007-09-28 05:28:00 AM  
nm: I'm going to guess that this is for low compression vehicles.
On properly tuned car designed for 87, you won't get better performance out of 89.
However, on a car designed for 91 or 93 (aka high compression or turbo/supercharged engines), you want to run taht or you will get pinging. Actually, you won't get pinging on a modern car, the ECU will detect it and slow engine timing to prvent pinging. Reducing the timing will lead to worse performance and milage.
Oh and these days all bets are off with ethanol and other additives. My car hates E10 (10% ethanol) and I lose a good 15% or so of my milage on this crap, while other cars may get better milage on E10 depending on how they are designed. On a car designed for 87 and particularly sensitive to ethanol, you would actually get better milage on so called classic premium, which is 91-93 with no ethanol. Whether its cost effective would vary.

Oh and a final note on turbo or supercharged engine if the manufacturer requires premium, its even more important to follow the octane rating.

/Final note (x2), the article notes 97 octane. This is RON. The US uses MON+RON/2 (AKI). The numbers are not comparable. 95RON is about 90 AKI.



Somehow I get the impression you're really getting a kick out of these replies.
 
2007-09-28 05:28:59 AM  
"some even mix in airplane fuel"

ummm---why would anyone put kerosene in a gas tank?

Must be to clean out the deposits, as that is what most injector and carb cleaners are based on----runs like kr@p until all used up though.
 
2007-09-28 05:30:41 AM  
The term "premium" is misleading, it suggests it is somehow of a better quality. For the most part it's just a difference of octane level, and most cars can run fine on 87 or 89.

USA wrote a good article (new window) on this a few years ago.

"Gasoline retailers and refiners like high-test because it's more profitable than regular-grade gas is. The retailer paid about 8 cents more for the premium you pay 20 cents more for - though that margin can swing wildly. Refiners make a few cents a gallon more on premium than on regular when they sell to wholesale distributors."

"Premium, in fact, sometimes is worse fuel than regular. It resists knock because it's harder to ignite than lower-octane fuels. As a result, some engines won't start as quickly or run as smoothly on premium, notes Gibbs, the SAE fuel expert."

There is "no way of taking advantage of premium in a regular-grade car," says Furey.

"There is no gain. You're wasting money," insists Jim Blenkarn, in charge of powertrains at Nissan in the USA.

"No customer should ever be deluded into thinking there's any value in buying a higher grade of octane than we specify," says Toyota's Paul Williamsen, technical expert and trainer.
 
2007-09-28 05:34:10 AM  
Yeah I really like em, they melt like butter when sliding over a curb sideways, ($7000 mistake). Now my rear end is about to give it up, I need a 12bolt soon. I'm thinking strange, any thoughts? (3.83 gearing is what I would shoot for)
 
2007-09-28 05:36:21 AM  
He means high compression AV gas, its either blue or red and its for piston driven aircraft, they don't really sell it very often, now they use regular and add boosters.
 
2007-09-28 05:42:44 AM  
Subby...isn't it spelled "Morons"?
 
2007-09-28 05:44:22 AM  
Macrophallus

noob
 
2007-09-28 05:44:29 AM  
Mars232: YupThazMe Rimz.

What the hell does that mean? Some 4chan meme that I've never heard of? Should I just "Lurk Moar" and "STFU"?
 
2007-09-28 05:51:09 AM  
ImJustaTroll Yes.?
 
2007-09-28 05:55:33 AM  
My car (an '03 Mitsubishi Lancer) actually says in the Owner's manual not to put premium in it. The car I had before that (a piece of shiat late-80's Chevy) would knock all the damn time if I put anything less than premium in it, and it'd biatch about certain brands of gas, at that.
 
2007-09-28 05:55:37 AM  
you can increase octane yourself or at least the effective octane.

add up to %5 methanol
or a small amount of nitropropane or nitrobenzine,

also look into forward intake water injection (popular of turbo cars who need a cooler air charge effectively needing less octane.

I found a diy fuel additive list in hotrod a few years back

Then there is my personal fav. TEL aka Lead WARNING have extra O2 sensors, and if you haven't already removed you cats, you should take this opportunity, you don't need them anyway.
 
2007-09-28 05:56:38 AM  
I drive an almost stock 1987 4 cylinder toyota celica. its nothing special, but it drives well and is reliable. In australia regular unleaded is 93 octane, premium is 95 and some (bp ultimate, shell optimax etc) hit the 98RON mark.

I've recently run a few tanks of 98 octane bp ultimate (instead of regular 93) and i've got about 50 extra kms out of each tank, for probably $4.50 -$5 (probably around $6US) extra each fill. I'm not saying its worth doing constantly, my car definately doesnt need 98 octane fuel, but it does run better and get better mileage.

Mileage aside, BP ultimate has been independently tested and proven to have a cleaning effect on engines as well as give better economy and lower emmissions. I've read this from a few good sources, and advertising laws prevent BP themselves from lying about it. Just google 'bp ultimate' and you can find quite a few tests showing it has a small, yet beneficial effect on your car.


Basically, most cars dont need high octane premium fuels, but running a few tanks of top end fuel and even throwing in some additives (injector cleaners etc.) is definately a good idea occasionally. The effects wont be anywhere near as good as the packaging says. but its definately a positive thing for your car. and will only cost you an extra $30 or so to do once a year
 
2007-09-28 06:02:36 AM  
shroomtex: or a small amount of nitropropane or nitrobenzine,

Um, yeah... because nitrobenzene is just so cheap and readily obtainable; I don't feel like having the government take any more interest in me then they already do. "Nitro" anything is now closely watched & regulated, and the small quantities that aren't are not cheap. Mothballs are a better option, but you have to pre-dissolve them first, which is just too much trouble to be worth the final results.
 
2007-09-28 06:03:42 AM  
My PT Cruiser Turbo knocks on anything less than 91 octane, and sometimes then.
 
2007-09-28 06:05:41 AM  
Octane is good for two things, it resists knocking in higher compression motors and the timing can be advanced more aggressively. Supercharged and turbo motors w/lower compression do to the forced induction also benefit.
Higher octane also gives a much hotter burn, cleaner emissions (lower NOx and CO) and higher exhaust temps. This is an extra bump to turbos as its best to think of the motor as a large hot air generator to power the tubro.
The hotter the exhaust gases, the more "free energy" to power the turbine fan, the more pressure to the intake (BOOST!) and the whole cycle repeats after ignition. Diesels are blessed with high temps as well hence the common linking of diesels and turbos.
My little turbo WRX runs like a dog w/o 93.
Always on the lookout for a Sunoco station with Ultra 94.
 
2007-09-28 06:07:54 AM  
My 00 Dodge Peon only eats 87. My 03 PT Cruiser GT needs the 93. It's way faster than it should be.

/already broke an axle
 
2007-09-28 06:08:28 AM  
Use the fuel the manufacturer recommends. If your manual says to use 87, then use 87. If it says to use 91, then use 91. Never use rocket fuel, and never put gasoline in a Zippo, no matter what the octane rating.
 
2007-09-28 06:08:33 AM  
Macrophallus: Subby...isn't it spelled "Morons"? Morans

Sorry pet peeve
 
2007-09-28 06:10:10 AM  
More on Nitro: Nitrobenzine is incredibly toxic, so it should be handled with extreme caution. Google it; the first ten entries are about how it kills you, not performance enhancemnt.

Nitropropane looks like a good way to blow your engine just like with too much NO2.
 
2007-09-28 06:11:23 AM  
Macrophallus

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To begin your education into this wild and wacky website, may I suggest the following link:

List of Fark Cliches

mfrost.typepad.com
 
2007-09-28 06:13:46 AM  
My neighbor is going to find out this morning how well his car runs on saltwater. Sucker.
 
2007-09-28 06:15:58 AM  
Feel_the_velvet: My neighbor is going to find out this morning how well his car runs on saltwater. Sucker.

Did your neighbor's dog poop in your yard or something?
 
2007-09-28 06:16:40 AM  
Just put in what the manufacturer tells you is proper for you engine. My Porsche requires it, so I'm stuck buying it.

gotrox: ...airplane fuel"
ummm---why would anyone put kerosene in a gas tank?


Umm, kerosene is jet fuel. Aviation Gasoline (100LL AvGas) is 100 octane "low lead" but it really has a lot of lead compared to the old leaded auto gas. When I had an FBO, we'd sell 100LL to owners of racing boats and cars now and then.
 
2007-09-28 06:21:40 AM  
Water/alchy/methanol injection is mod for Subi motors. I can't say much about it other than it cools the intake charge. Colder air is denser, hence more O2. To maintain the stoichiometric mixture of 14.7 to 1 air to fuel ratio the fuel must be bumped up to match and not "lean out" the motor and burn pistons.
It can also be seen that the by product of water/alchy injection is steam, which takes up volume in the cylinder increasing compression.
Any one have any more info as to additive injection?
 
2007-09-28 06:23:03 AM  
gotrox: "some even mix in airplane fuel"

ummm---why would anyone put kerosene in a gas tank?

Must be to clean out the deposits, as that is what most injector and carb cleaners are based on----runs like kr@p until all used up though.


You're thinking of jet aircraft fuel. Jet-A is indeed very close to kerosene, albeit with a host of additives.

What these guys use is called 100LL, which is primarily used in small piston-engined aircraft (think Cessnae and Beechcraft). It's rather similar in basic composition to motor fuel, except that it's got a much higher octane rating and has a host of other additives to make it conducive to operation at altitude. Plus, it's got a wee bit of lead tetraethyl, since (IIRC) many of the additives that replaced lead in gasoline don't really work well at altitude.

Personally, given all the specialized crap that's in Avgas, I think one is probably better off just buying straight racing ethanol from your local distributor. That, and the fact that the FBO near where I used to live in the states sold Avgas for around $5.50/gallon.
 
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