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(LA Times)   Expert witnesses needed as Washington State allows for a 60-day supply of medical marijuana, but can't agree on just how much that actually is   (latimes.com) divider line 160
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5482 clicks; posted to Main » on 23 Sep 2007 at 3:41 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-09-23 05:45:52 PM  
jaldor: ThePudgeBoy ...it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that pot is not a medicine by any accepted standard.

What about the "it effectively treats certain ailments" standard?


______
Treating ailments doesn't help anybody! Silly!

(Oh, sure, it helps the patient, I suppose, but nobody who actually matters!)
 
2007-09-23 05:47:16 PM  
Axias: Like any other prescription it would be based on symptoms. Most drugs are delivered on the basis of duration of effect, peak effect, half-life, etc.

Easy: Marijuana joint= 1.0~g, duration 2-3 hours x need to alleviate. Figure most cancer patients would smoke 2-4 joints per day to alleviate nausea, promote appetite= About 1-4 grams per day.

Wow.. I hope the government doesn't spend too much money time figuring these tough questions out.. DOH.



FTFY
 
2007-09-23 05:47:48 PM  
FloydA: jaldor: ThePudgeBoy ...it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that pot is not a medicine by any accepted standard.

What about the "it effectively treats certain ailments" standard?

______
Treating ailments doesn't help anybody! Silly!

(Oh, sure, it helps the patient, I suppose, but nobody who actually matters!)


THINK OF THE PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES! no one would buy their products!
 
2007-09-23 05:48:58 PM  
ThePudgeBoy: This is exactly why the federal goverment doesn't recognize pot as a medicine: Medicines require standard doses and effectiveness. When you go to the pharmacy the pharmacist doesn't hand you a bag of vicodin and say "Use as much as it takes to relieve the pain"; rather, the doctor gives you a prescription with the amounts you should take based on the type and intensity of the pain, and adjusts that as needed. Pot is too variable, and thus its effects can't be quantified easily, and as such IT IS NOT MEDICINE. These 'medical marijuana laws' are not consistent with federal policy, and blah blah blah "states rights" blah blah blah, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that pot is not a medicine by any accepted standard.

And your medical credentials come from...? Your ass?
 
2007-09-23 05:50:17 PM  
gimmedaloot: They have better things to do than to troll the internet for drug refrences

I'm pretty sure they don't.
 
2007-09-23 05:50:36 PM  
wowzer97pooh: What about eating the stuff? Cookies, brownies, lasagne?

Um...no idea, but I'm gonna guess that you'd use even more than when rolling? However, you do stay high longer when you eat it so maybe everything balances out.

ThePudgeBoy: This is exactly why the federal goverment doesn't recognize pot as a medicine: Medicines require standard doses and effectiveness. When you go to the pharmacy the pharmacist doesn't hand you a bag of vicodin and say "Use as much as it takes to relieve the pain"; rather, the doctor gives you a prescription with the amounts you should take based on the type and intensity of the pain, and adjusts that as needed. Pot is too variable, and thus its effects can't be quantified easily, and as such IT IS NOT MEDICINE. These 'medical marijuana laws' are not consistent with federal policy, and blah blah blah "states rights" blah blah blah, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the fact that pot is not a medicine by any accepted standard.

...on the off chance that you seriously believe this, you ought to consider that while cannabis doesn't kill viruses, it is still a medicine. Contribution to well being via pain relief or restoration of appetite places cannabis squarely in the "beneficial therapeutic qualities" group, which means it is at least a Schedule II by definition, like cocaine.

Consider also that standard dosages are required only for all other drugs because they can KILL you. 2-3 times the standard dose is probably enough to kill you for half of the drug types you will receive in a hospital.

Cannabis has no known maximum dosage limit. Considering that, then each person should self-regulate their "minimum" required dosage for muscle relaxation, pain relief, or appetite restoration. The deadliest side effect I've heard of is "cerebral toxicity" which turned out to mean "drowsiness", so the only reason to establish a standard maximum dosage would be to prevent drowsiness during work or activities that required alertness. Minimum dosage should be whatever a person feels they need so long as it's beneath an established maximum dosage.
 
2007-09-23 05:51:16 PM  
Hickory-smoked: gimmedaloot: They have better things to do than to troll the internet for drug refrences

I'm pretty sure they don't.


What I meant was: They have better ways to waste taxpayers money
 
2007-09-23 05:51:55 PM  
and I doubt the ATF or FBI cares about marijuana, that's mainly DEA territory
 
2007-09-23 05:56:09 PM  
TFA said something about 4.5lbs for 60 days. Call it 4 for stoner math, that's a pound every 2 weeks, over an ounce every day. Make me the expert witness, and we can maybe get that instated as "normal".

/can i take a few hours off after the 60 days tho? whew! wait... what?
 
2007-09-23 05:56:42 PM  
A 60 day supply should last a week. Haven't any of you studied Arimthentic?
 
2007-09-23 06:05:29 PM  
I'm curious, how many of you would consider yourself 'social' smokers -- e.g. groups only. Or do you smoke alone?

//Not a smoker.
//Just curious!
 
2007-09-23 06:09:17 PM  
fac3less: I'm curious, how many of you would consider yourself 'social' smokers -- e.g. groups only. Or do you smoke alone?

//Not a smoker.
//Just curious!


Define "group".
 
2007-09-23 06:11:11 PM  
$100 an ounce each month. So a sick person would need 2 or 3 times that much. From what I hear.

i70.photobucket.com
 
2007-09-23 06:16:49 PM  
Kome: "It doesn't make sense for a judge or prosecutor to have to determine how much a sick person needs -- that's a medical decision, and I've always felt it should be made by a doctor."

All the other talky talk is just icing on the cake. This is the most important thing to consider. The people making decisions do not have the appropriate expertise to be making these decisions.




Precisely. Having a judge or attorney decide this is like letting your auto mechanic pick your stock portfolio.

If your car broke down, would you take it to a dentist to get it repaired?

If your pregnant wife needed a C-section, would you call a trial lawyer to carry out the operation?
 
2007-09-23 06:18:28 PM  
fac3less: I'm curious, how many of you would consider yourself 'social' smokers -- e.g. groups only. Or do you smoke alone?

Back when I was a pot smoker (8-10 years ago) I smoked mostly in a social setting. We were usually just hanging out anyway, not doing anything and just talking, so we'd decide to light up. When I smoked on my own it's because I had pretty much run out of things to do that required me to not be stoned to do well and was left doing things where the level of my sobriety had no practical consequences on the outcome (i.e. talking to friends on the internet, playing video games, reading a book).
 
2007-09-23 06:19:43 PM  
wowzer97pooh

Your sign is wrong. It's Exit 340.



/it's already a funny sign, why edit it?
 
2007-09-23 06:25:01 PM  
rabid_hyperbole: So roughly 4oz should be a fine amount.

Easily and by far. If you smoke 4oz in 60 days......
Wanna be my new best friend?
 
2007-09-23 06:27:06 PM  
TurdBurglar: Which is precisely why I asked. I have no idea how much people spend to stay high on weed. I was just curious about the cost involved.

well, not many people try to stay high for an entire month except medical users and the hardcore. Most people can get all the weed they need for a month for what they'd spend in a night of clubbing or eating out.

I spend about 30 bucks a month to "stay high" as you put it. Average usage is probably casual usage. The costs are negligible. I spend more on food in a day than I spend on weed in a month.

Must have misinterpreted your question earlier. I assumed you were asking the always fun question of "how much would it cost you to be high every day for a month?", but it seems like you're just asking about average costs for average users. Vaporizing, less than 30 bucks. Rolling, maybe 60. That's my guess for "recreational users".
 
2007-09-23 06:30:03 PM  
Hands down the BEST thread yet!!!!!

BONG!
 
2007-09-23 06:30:14 PM  
7-10 grams a week. This coming from a heavy smoker.
 
2007-09-23 06:40:58 PM  
that_other_internet: Contribution to well being via pain relief or restoration of appetite places cannabis squarely in the "beneficial therapeutic qualities" group, which means it is at least a Schedule II by definition, like cocaine.

Contrary to what Internet 2.0 says, pot is a schedule 1 drug, meaning it that prescriptions can't be legally written for it.

Even if one were to accept the fact that pot may alleviate pain (which, sure, why not, I can buy that) my point is that it is ineffective in the sense that its effects can't be quantified. A better way to quantify the effects would be to isolate the effective ingredients (as is done with so many other drugs...We don't feed people mold for infections, we have them take penicillin that has been purified and made into a tablet) and make it into a tablet form (see marinol). If that was done, one could quantify the amount of "medicine" in each tablet and prescribe accordingly (again, marinol). I'm willing to bet proponents of 'medical marijuana' aren't going to go along with that. Why would that be? Why would that be? Oh, could it be that people wouldn't want to use it if they couldn't get high?
 
2007-09-23 06:43:41 PM  
Marinol doesnt work. No one is quite sure why.
 
2007-09-23 06:47:03 PM  
ThePudgeBoy

Try Marinol for pain sometime- Its innefective and will actually cause 2/3s of patients to throw up.

Some compounds cant be synthesized correctly yet. Along with that, marinol doesnt increase appetite.

If you are in real pain- MJ wont get you high- it only gets you back to normal. Just like percoset or vicodin.
 
2007-09-23 06:53:05 PM  
ThePudgeBoy: Even if one were to accept the fact that pot may alleviate pain (which, sure, why not, I can buy that) my point is that it is ineffective in the sense that its effects can't be quantified.

Uh... since pain is an entirely subjective phenomenon, all medicines that are pain relievers cannot have their efficacy quantified. So, by your logic, there's no reason at all to perscribe any pain reliever, because, you know, there can't be any quantified efficacy. I hope none of your loved ones ever get striken down with a chronic pain disorder. Your logic would kill them.

I'm willing to bet proponents of 'medical marijuana' aren't going to go along with that.

Well how about that. You're proposing we treat medical cannibis exactly like every other drug, just like the proponents of medical cannibis. So, you're wrong there skippy.
Also, as much fun as it must be to be a reductionist, we have evidence for medical benefits with no negative side effects with using medical cannibis. Even though it would get it's component parts analyzed, there's no reason now it shouldn't be legalized as a medicine as is.

Oh, could it be that people wouldn't want to use it if they couldn't get high?

Paging Dr. Straw-man. Paging Dr. Straw-man.
Some proponents of medical cannibis are non-smokers. So you can ignore all the ones who currently smoke and you're still left with a significant non-zero population of people to contend with.
 
2007-09-23 06:57:20 PM  
ThePudgeBoy: Contrary to what Internet 2.0 says, pot is a schedule 1 drug, meaning it that prescriptions can't be legally written for it.

Even if one were to accept the fact that pot may alleviate pain (which, sure, why not, I can buy that) my point is that it is ineffective in the sense that its effects can't be quantified. A better way to quantify the effects would be to isolate the effective ingredients (as is done with so many other drugs...We don't feed people mold for infections, we have them take penicillin that has been purified and made into a tablet) and make it into a tablet form (see marinol). If that was done, one could quantify the amount of "medicine" in each tablet and prescribe accordingly (again, marinol). I'm willing to bet proponents of 'medical marijuana' aren't going to go along with that. Why would that be? Why would that be? Oh, could it be that people wouldn't want to use it if they couldn't get high?


I only said it was a Schedule I by definition, PudgeBoy, not by law. Nice, huh? Do you know what the main difference between a Schedule I and Schedule II is? Ya...therapeutic use.
 
2007-09-23 07:00:02 PM  
Medical marijuana is a gateway drug that leads to looting, pillaging, and general piracy.

www.latimes.com
 
2007-09-23 07:04:52 PM  
Prophetica Insipia: Marinol doesnt work. No one is quite sure why.

Well, it's only one out of dozens of the active cannabinoids in regular weed. Who the hell knows why they chose that particular compound? Why even synthesise a compound at all? Seems an awful lot of trouble to go through when they've not been able to prove that marijuana is dangerous in it's natural form.

I'm guessing they're going to figure out which compounds work best for which symptom and attempt to market various pairings of cannabinoids as separate treatments.
 
2007-09-23 07:11:33 PM  
^marinol (dronnabinol AKA THC) isnt very effective withou the rest of the cannabinoids. apparently the synthetic cannabinoid nabilone works well orally, and its much more potent than marinol as well. ive heard the high is good too, i would love to try it.
 
2007-09-23 07:17:50 PM  
All of it.
 
2007-09-23 07:22:30 PM  
count chocula: ^marinol (dronnabinol AKA THC) isnt very effective withou the rest of the cannabinoids. apparently the synthetic cannabinoid nabilone works well orally, and its much more potent than marinol as well. ive heard the high is good too, i would love to try it.

Aint no substitute for the real thing. We know it works
 
2007-09-23 07:56:50 PM  
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA hahahahaaaaaaaaaa
aahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

dude I smoke ^_^
 
2007-09-23 08:03:51 PM  
Prophetica Insipia: If you smoke 4oz in 60 days......
Wanna be my new best friend?


Meh, during my peak consumption period, about 6 years ago, I could easily go through an ounce a week. I'll be the first to admit that's excessive, but certainly not unheard of, especially here in Can(nabis)ada.

//unredeemable stoner
 
2007-09-23 08:04:45 PM  
my favorite argument for the war on drugs is that "It's a gateway drug. If kids smoke it, it introduces them to the drug world." not if its legal. Then it would introduce them to that arab guy behind the gas station counter who has the best stuff out there.

http://www.drugwarfacts.org/Modifiedmurderchart.gif

/Probably not terribly accurate but you get the point. The war on drugs is really a war on society.
 
2007-09-23 08:19:48 PM  
ThePudgeBoy: Why would that be? Oh, could it be that people wouldn't want to use it if they couldn't get high?

____
And this is wrong because?

Seriously. Why should a plant be illegal?

DWI is already illegal, so that's not it.
Working while intoxicated will already get you fired, so that's not it. It's not a safety or productivity issue at all.

So why should pot be more illegal than, for example, Brussels Sprouts?

Again, I don't smoke the stuff, but I just can't understand why it's prohibited. Can someone give me an answer?
 
2007-09-23 08:20:54 PM  
Shvetz: Medical marijuana is a gateway drug that leads to looting, pillaging, and general piracy.

_____
Great minds think alike.

And so do ours.
 
2007-09-23 08:26:59 PM  
Axias::: Easy: Marijuana joint= 1.0~g, duration 2-3 hours x need to alleviate. Figure most cancer patients would smoke 2-4 joints per day to alleviate nausea, promote appetite= About 1-4 grams per day:""

Dude, thats an awesome amount, i hope they don't get an expert that really uses 4 g a day...
i13.tinypic.com
govt bong used in cold fusion research
 
2007-09-23 08:28:02 PM  
morbo: wowzer97pooh

Your sign is wrong. It's Exit 340.



/it's already a funny sign, why edit it?


What was I thinking? I must have been high.
 
2007-09-23 08:41:37 PM  
FloydA: ThePudgeBoy: Why would that be? Oh, could it be that people wouldn't want to use it if they couldn't get high?

____
And this is wrong because?

Seriously. Why should a plant be illegal?

DWI is already illegal, so that's not it.
Working while intoxicated will already get you fired, so that's not it. It's not a safety or productivity issue at all.

So why should pot be more illegal than, for example, Brussels Sprouts?

Again, I don't smoke the stuff, but I just can't understand why it's prohibited. Can someone give me an answer?


Easy! It's the same reason that beer and alcohol was once illegal, and is still restricted. The answer is: Fundamentalist Christians pushing their morality on the government. It's also the same reason why prostitution and gay marriage is illegal. But just remember, the Christians are the ones that are persecuted in this country!

/Don't mind most Christians or most fundies, just the asshole fundies
 
2007-09-23 08:44:49 PM  
i11.tinypic.com
i rly hope people behave themselves when its made legal...
 
2007-09-23 09:07:37 PM  
better way to quantify the effects would be to isolate the effective ingredients (as is done with so many other drugs...

not possible as there are something like 400 psychoactive ingredients in pot, delta9thc is just one of them, it also can turn in the CBN or CBL.

As its scheduled above cocaine (scheduled II), it cannot be studied independently or by anyone without dea approval. This is the law that really needs to be changed, moving it to scheduled 3 or 4 could make it acceptable medicine.

I have chronic back pain and smoking really alleviates the pain, almost as good as rx pain killers, but I would much rather smoke pot for an extended period of time than take them all the time...both of them together works well too and lets me take much less narcotic pain killer than is needed with no pot alone.
 
2007-09-23 09:10:56 PM  
ThePudgeBoy

I think they quantify dosages based on what will kill rats. Lethal Dose 50% (LD50) or the amount that will kill 50% of a population of specimens is primarily how they calculate that. So if 1oz of pure whatever would kill 50% of the rat test subjects, they divide that amount by something well over 100, I want to say 110 or 225. That number then becomes the maximum daily intake of a given drug.

Something along those lines, I know my numbers are probably off. Anyway, you'd have to smoke something like 4lbs of marijuana for it to be dangerous; aside from the obvious smoke inhalation problem. You've clearly drank the Kool-Aid so I'm not going to bother with you any further.
 
2007-09-23 09:18:06 PM  
I was going to say 5 kilos.
You guys got me beat.
 
2007-09-23 09:21:39 PM  
ThePudgeBoy: A better way to quantify the effects would be to isolate the effective ingredients (as is done with so many other drugs...We don't feed people mold for infections, we have them take penicillin that has been purified and made into a tablet) and make it into a tablet form (see marinol). If that was done, one could quantify the amount of "medicine" in each tablet and prescribe accordingly (again, marinol).

Marinol costs over ten dollars a pill. Most people need to take two or three at a time. All synthesising natural compounds does is make money for pharmaceutical companies.
 
2007-09-23 09:27:43 PM  
press_DUCK
3 Joints in a lid? You must be from California, man.


press_DUCK
My post was a reference to a '70's Cheech and Chong comedy album
I was thinking I might be the Oldest Farker, (coming to CBS this fall)
then logruszed commented But our judges say "that's ok, they roll big joints too!"and an assist from drumsac

I hope I am not shunned because of some previously unknown Farker faux pause , I am a noob
 
2007-09-23 09:46:59 PM  
jenniferwillow:

Easy! It's the same reason that beer and alcohol was once illegal, and is still restricted. The answer is: Fundamentalist Christians pushing their morality on the government. It's also the same reason why prostitution and gay marriage is illegal. But just remember, the Christians are the ones that are persecuted in this country!

/Don't mind most Christians or most fundies, just the asshole fundies


________
DOH! Of Course! Why didn't I think of that? Having fun or enjoying myself in some way is a form of persecution to those who are convinced that having fun and enjoying myself are bad!

Obviously, since I don't wish to offend, I should be miserable because there might be an (_)*(_) out there who is offended by my happiness! (My lack of God Bless You, Mr. Vonnegut.)

(On another note, jenniferwillow, if you ever visit Seattle, remind me to buy you a morally questionable beverage of your choice.)
 
2007-09-23 09:55:18 PM  
luckyeddie: FloydA

I haven't had a smoke in years but I'm laughing and crying like I'm totally wasted.

Well played, sir.

/Yar - I missed Pirates Day this year somehow


_________

I just reali(s)ed, from looking at profiles, that you're probably laughing, in part because you actually got the joke of my 2007-09-23 04:52:57 PM and 2007-09-23 04:53:37 PM by recogni(s)ing those ships. Good on you!

YARRRR!!!!!
 
2007-09-23 10:24:20 PM  
the amount needed would really depend on how often friends stop over.
 
2007-09-23 10:30:17 PM  
Just have a drink instead, criminal.
 
2007-09-23 10:31:21 PM  
QP
 
2007-09-23 10:31:30 PM  
2-3 oz / week would be the minimum. Heck.. I dont use for medicinal and I can easily consume 2oz / week.
 
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