Do you have adblock enabled?
 
If you can read this, either the style sheet didn't load or you have an older browser that doesn't support style sheets. Try clearing your browser cache and refreshing the page.

(Arizona Star)   HOA to homeowners: Give us $8.5 million for a new rec center. Judge to HOA: Swallow it. HOA trifecta complete   (azstarnet.com ) divider line
    More: Spiffy  
•       •       •

19083 clicks; posted to Main » on 13 Sep 2007 at 1:44 PM (8 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



389 Comments   (+0 »)
   

Archived thread

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all
 
2007-09-13 03:04:37 PM  
LocalCynic: No, it's called a "life estate," as opposed to a sale in fee simple.

A lease is generally understood as the right to land for a set term of years. The use of land for life is not in a set term of years, so it's not a lease.


The person granting the deed has ownership of the land, that's considered his property but titled to another person. If A wants to deed over his land to B for a life term, that's his right to do so. He owns the land and can call it whatever he wants. That still fits within the principle of property rights.
 
2007-09-13 03:04:45 PM  
Fellows: My legal forté is not the history of property rights, I admit. But only a fool would purchase a parcel of land with the full understanding that the land transfers back to the seller upon death and not to the benefactors of his choosing.

Actually, it makes a lot of sense. If you only buy the right to use it for the rest of your life, it's probably going to cost you a lot less than if you buy it outright, forever.

I'll admit, a lot of this stuff is pretty abstract because most of these land arrangements like life estates are holdovers from the feudal era. It was much more common back then for the feudal lord to devise a portion of his land to the serfs for life, and when they died the land would return to the lord.

Nowadays, a lot of these arrangements come in the form of gifts rather than outright purchases. Like, let's say you die and your children are young, but you have a friend of comparable age. You may want to give your land to your friend until he dies, then give the land to the children once they grow up. You may also have a fear that your friend is going to shack up with your widow, so you add a term saying that he gets the land, unless he shacks up with your spouse, at which point your children get the land.
 
2007-09-13 03:05:32 PM  
LocalCynic: If the state owns the land, they have the right to sell the land to you outright, or to sell you the right to live there until you die. If you die and your children or spouse won't leave, then they're trespassing. Whether you're talking about the state or a person, the right to property includes the right to alienate or devise it.

It all comes down to Communism, whatever you call it.

Property is owned by a few powerful people and rented out to the plebes.

I, along with every red-blooded American, hate Communism.

Why people want Communism here in the U.S. of Farkin' A. is beyond me.
 
2007-09-13 03:05:38 PM  
Have been looking at Franchises.

Yeah, me too. Good analogy. I'm looking at Subway.
 
2007-09-13 03:05:49 PM  
danlpoon: Yes, property rights are SOOO moronic.

You wouldn't know a Life Estate from a Qualified Personal Residence Trust from a Future Springing Executory Interest if it slithered up your too-tight, low-rise, girl's Levi's and stung you on your lonely cock.

Go.


Dude, you totally pwned me 8th grade style.
 
2007-09-13 03:07:05 PM  
LocalCynic: I'll admit, a lot of this stuff is pretty abstract because most of these land arrangements like life estates are holdovers from the feudal era. It was much more common back then for the feudal lord to devise a portion of his land to the serfs for life, and when they died the land would return to the lord.

People came to America to escape it, why bring it back? That's all I'm asking.
 
2007-09-13 03:07:22 PM  
Lets see my experiences with my idiot HOA before I moved out of that shiathole

1)They decided to re-side the condo complex. Genius HOA members got a open ended contract price from a "friend" of one of the idiots. Cost 3 times as much as the original low ball quote.

2)"somehow" the wells ran dry. They signed a GREAT deal with the town for water and sewer at 1000/month for WATER!!!

3)Late fees assessed on top of late fees (illegal)

4)nosy busybodies

I moved out, Bought a "Investment Grade" home, waterfront on 5 acres. Can't even see my goddamn neighbors. I leave them alone they leave me alone.

I hate HOA Snobs
 
2007-09-13 03:09:18 PM  
If HOA's are such a bed idea, how do you suggest handling the idiot who turns his house into a craphole that knocks $50k off the asking price for ten of his neighbors?

One word: Lawsuit.

If you're not willing to sue over it, then you must not care about it very much.

And before you start with the "b-b-b-but lawsuits are expensive" whine, I'll point out that you can make the defendant pay all your legal expenses (if you win).
 
2007-09-13 03:10:02 PM  
In the long run it is alot cheaper to paint your own house, and mow your own lawn.

HOA's the fourth reich?
 
2007-09-13 03:10:02 PM  
matrixxx1

Cali = California
San Fran = San Francisco

This Native Son welcomes you to the Golden State.

Asides, congratulations and good luck!
 
2007-09-13 03:10:45 PM  
birdistasty: Fark you, and your damn Nazi views

Wow. I triggered a Godwin. Sweet.
 
2007-09-13 03:11:33 PM  
I'll admit, a lot of this stuff is pretty abstract because most of these land arrangements like life estates are holdovers from the feudal era.

These property interests are especially important in estate planning. To wit: If Granny owns a house outright, say. And Son wants to open a Subway. Granny can devise her house to son who sells it contingent on the life estate of Granny. Son gets money now, Granny has a place to live until death AND Granny's gross-estate is minus one house for tax purposes. Win-Win-Win.

What do YOU think Andrew131? Have I described a taxable event for Son? Eh. Mr. Property Rights?
 
2007-09-13 03:12:19 PM  
I beleive in Hawaii they call this a Lease-Hold and it is how most parcels of property are "sold" as they are owned by a few families.

I personally hate HOAs, so I bought a house that did not have a mandatory one. I enjoy telling them how much I hate HOAs and how I will never give them any dues when they come to tell me about the next meeting!

danlpoon 2007-09-13 02:59:03 PM
That's called leasing.

Or a Life Estate if your not a raging, spittle-wiping moron like Andrew131.

It's the basis for reverse mortgages, sort of.
 
2007-09-13 03:12:23 PM  
America, where we tout capitalism but in reality practice communism. How, we buy everything on credit (communism, spending everyone else's money), expect the government to protect us when our butts get hurt when in reality you're just a pussy, and party rules the government.
 
2007-09-13 03:12:24 PM  
andrew131: The person granting the deed has ownership of the land, that's considered his property but titled to another person. If A wants to deed over his land to B for a life term, that's his right to do so. He owns the land and can call it whatever he wants. That still fits within the principle of property rights.

What you're saying is partially right. If someone has a life estate in the land, they have a present possessory interest in the land, which means that they have the right to be in current possession and enjoyment of the land, subject to any limitations. If the grant of land is less than in fee (meaning that there are certain limitations), then another person has a future possessory interest in the land. There are some kind of weird and tricky rules about what future interests are legitimate, but the simple non-technical explanation is that a person can reserve rights to land.
 
2007-09-13 03:13:05 PM  
threetoehoek
Thanks for keeping it civil.

I completely understand your frustrations with people never having owned a home having such strong opinions, based on essentially nothing. As well as the slackers that let their place go to h*ll.

At the same time, there are folks like myself, that do understand that a great many HOAs are doing the right things. For me it's the potential for them to go nuts. They are essentially all powerful to the tune of PREVENTING A SALE to pay off assessment fees. Which was attempted by my association. Fortunately I had the money and good lawyer to fight, but I can see some poor overmortgaged family getting screwed over by an overzealous 'new' board on an established HOA. Having their house repo'd and sold for 75% of value (which will kill property values quicker than anything).
 
2007-09-13 03:13:15 PM  
Yard Nazis, I hate Yard Nazis2
 
2007-09-13 03:13:34 PM  
threetoehoek: BuckTurgidson: threetoehoek: I like the idea that most of you idiots don't like HOA's so you won't move in next to me!

And we like the idea that you idiots like HOA's and can be counted on to concentrate yourselves in your petty squabbling covetous busybody enclaves.

Have you ever lived in a HOA community (and no living with your parents in one dosent count). I'm guessing the answer is no.. Have you ever owned your own house (again, your parents owning one dosent count.. sorry)? I'm guessing no again.. busy-body enclaves? well it has a nice ring to it but really ..lol .. most HOA's are nothing like that. But you sure did feel cool when you typed that out, huh?


You are welcome to keep guessing, but in my opinion it isn't a strong point for you.

lol.
 
2007-09-13 03:15:29 PM  
tweekster: Recently married, looking to buy a home on the west coast (cali,oregon,washington)


IMPOSSIBLE to find a tolerable house out here, in a populated area that isn't HOA owned, and doesnt require an EXTRA 1500 a month in HOA fees. So.... not buying a house in Cali.


Want to know why all the 'tolerable' houses have a HOA? Cos when you don't have a HOA, a lot of people will let their house become a shiatheap.
 
2007-09-13 03:16:28 PM  
As a Nazi, I resent all of the comparisons that you are making to HOA boardmembers. People have feelings, you know. You folks are just plain mean. :(
 
2007-09-13 03:16:29 PM  
LocalCynic: What you're saying is partially right. If someone has a life estate in the land, they have a present possessory interest in the land, which means that they have the right to be in current possession and enjoyment of the land, subject to any limitations. If the grant of land is less than in fee (meaning that there are certain limitations), then another person has a future possessory interest in the land. There are some kind of weird and tricky rules about what future interests are legitimate, but the simple non-technical explanation is that a person can reserve rights to land.

Right, but A still owns the land that B lives/works/plays/etc on.
 
2007-09-13 03:16:34 PM  
OMG....
My HOA is a bunch of conservitave nazis. They can't wait till one of our "neighbors" bankruptcy is discharged...."...then they will be vulnerable...THEN we can go back after them..." The Prez. is an ex-cop from NY. It's a friggen nightmare...I love that the friendly southern sheriff's department sides with anyone but him....
 
2007-09-13 03:17:43 PM  
andrew131: He owns the land and can call it whatever he wants.

Just to add one bit onto this - if you own the land in something less than fee and someone else has a future possessory interest, you have an obligation to that person to not fark with the land too much. That would violate the Rule Against Waste. Like, you can't burn down the house and spread chemicals all over the land before the next guy gets the land.
 
2007-09-13 03:17:46 PM  
andrew131 ...deny property rights to certain people.

The 9th amendment says you lose any right that you use to take someone else's rights away. I like that law almost as much as my equity in my home.

What multi-millionaire do you know that is going to spend $1M on a home and turn it into a dump?

You think money has anything to do with brains or class? Turn off your TV and go outside.

stiletto_the_wise....turning him into a frog

Who would know more about real estate than you do?

SchlingFo

"flipper"


That's true, but only while it's on the market, which isn't long at all. Jethro with his nine cars on his brown lawn are forever.

tweekster...it just doesnt happen in real life.

If by "real life" you mean World of Warcraft, then no. The real estate market, however, absolutely. I've bought and sold houses, and nothing guts a home's value like a pariah neighbor.

johne3819 Step 3: If step 1 turns out true, then most likely there is some city ordinance/health code/etc violation that can be handled by the law.

Are there cities that have ordinances against rebuilding motors on your lawn and going 40 years without painting?

Supercheeks They're called Public Ordinances.

I think if they existed everywhere and were enforced, HOA's would not exist.

Madasshatter, I think you summed it up. I know HOA's can become fascist idiots, but I think they are a sound concept for people who work hard for their equity.
 
2007-09-13 03:17:48 PM  
There are some kind of weird and tricky rules about what future interests are legitimate, but the simple non-technical explanation is that a person can reserve rights to land.

Really only as they relate to tax. Whether the devise beats the Estate and Gift Tax or whether you need to do it a QPRT which means it has to be family.

I beleive in Hawaii they call this a Lease-Hold and it is how most parcels of property are "sold" as they are owned by a few families.


Hawaii is certainly not my milieau, neityher is spelling, but I heard lease-holds mentioned on House Hunters Hawaii. Seemed like Lease hold saved you about 20%.
 
2007-09-13 03:18:11 PM  
From the other thread: If people were considerate of their neighbors, there'd be no need for HOAs. Unfortunately, they are not.
 
2007-09-13 03:18:27 PM  
Ahhh...the HOA threads. Best flamewars on fark.
 
2007-09-13 03:19:28 PM  
weird and tricky rules

I guess it can't also set up a perpetuity.
 
2007-09-13 03:19:31 PM  
danlpoon: Really only as they relate to tax. Whether the devise beats the Estate and Gift Tax or whether you need to do it a QPRT which means it has to be family.

That's beyond my level of knowledge - I'm still just a lowly IANAL.
 
2007-09-13 03:19:33 PM  
masonreloaded 2007-09-13 03:15:29 PM
tweekster: Recently married, looking to buy a home on the west coast (cali,oregon,washington)


IMPOSSIBLE to find a tolerable house out here, in a populated area that isn't HOA owned, and doesnt require an EXTRA 1500 a month in HOA fees. So.... not buying a house in Cali.

Want to know why all the 'tolerable' houses have a HOA? Cos when you don't have a HOA, a lot of people will let their house become a shiatheap.



I mean tolerable as in.... within a 15 minute drive to a grocery store/gas station/etc... theres plenty of $700k+ houses... but they arent in my reach... anything arround $200k (my price range) is in the middle of frickin nowhere, or owned by an HOA....

My family has warned me repeatedly about their HOA troubles... So, it looks like oregon and washington are where I am moving...
 
2007-09-13 03:19:38 PM  
matrixxx1: oreg

Hows portland look HOA wise? I am looking to move out there (but would probably start in a condo anyways)
 
2007-09-13 03:20:10 PM  
andrew131: Awesome, so instead of letting a private individual buy the property for cheap and improving it your HOA wasted money and you ended up paying for a portion of a home you'll never get to use. BRILLIANT!

And we did so gladly by way of a landslide vote. It was embarrassing.
 
2007-09-13 03:20:33 PM  
Daniels: If people were considerate of their neighbors there were local ordinances, there'd be no need for HOAs. Unfortunately, they are not. Fortunately, there are.
 
2007-09-13 03:20:50 PM  
tweekster 2007-09-13 03:19:38 PM
matrixxx1: oreg

Hows portland look HOA wise? I am looking to move out there (but would probably start in a condo anyways



VERY good actually, thats one of the places im looking ;) very very very few HOAs there (atleast from what ive seen with my realtor)
 
2007-09-13 03:21:20 PM  
rmoose: HOAs are pure evil. The are a refuge for people who have no power in their own life and wish to exert authority over others. Or, have nothing better to do - or both.

Huh. I thought that's what the Society for Creative Anachronism was for.

/Sorry.
 
2007-09-13 03:22:31 PM  
boobsrgood: You think money has anything to do with brains or class? Turn off your TV and go outside.

So, you're saying a government or institution should place limits on a market and actually control the market.

How communist of you.
 
2007-09-13 03:22:33 PM  
danlpoon: I guess it can't also set up a perpetuity.

Heh, sorry to keep repeat posting, but I see what you were getting at. Yeah, I just wanted to keep it simple by not getting into the whole perpetuity discussion. From what I gather, it's pretty difficult for a decent estate planner to violate the rule against perpetuities.

I don't know much about the Estate Tax so you can be the expert today on that one :)
 
2007-09-13 03:23:16 PM  
boobsrgood: Are there cities that have ordinances against rebuilding motors on your lawn and going 40 years without painting?

What difference does it make to you whether they paint their house or not? It has nothing to do with the value of your home despite public perception.
 
2007-09-13 03:23:41 PM  
boobsrgood: You think money has anything to do with brains or class? Turn off your TV and go outside.

Most of the people I have met in HOA's have neither
 
2007-09-13 03:24:22 PM  
matrixxx1: tweekster 2007-09-13 03:19:38 PM
matrixxx1: oreg

Hows portland look HOA wise? I am looking to move out there (but would probably start in a condo anyways


VERY good actually, thats one of the places im looking ;) very very very few HOAs there (atleast from what ive seen with my realtor)


That is kind of the vibe I got from that city, the areas I was in were completely absent of the eyesore known as new construction "subdivisions"

I was looking at condos and they are not bad price wise plus a TON of amenities. It means a condo association but they are usually quite a bit more reasonable in my experience (and make a hell of a lot more sense than an HOA)

If I could, I would have moved last month already.
 
2007-09-13 03:25:10 PM  
boobsrgood: If HOA's are such a bed idea, how do you suggest handling the idiot who turns his house into a craphole that knocks $50k off the asking price for ten of his neighbors?

Seriously, how?


Suck it up, Nancy. Its his property. Your property ends at the property line.
 
2007-09-13 03:27:34 PM  
danlpoon: Your primary residence does not generate cash flow.

I take equity out every now and then. Plus I charge people to bury dead hookers in my back yard.


I bet you could charge double if they were still alive when buried.
 
2007-09-13 03:27:36 PM  
No pity.

You gotta be a freakken moron to even buy a house with an HOA.
 
2007-09-13 03:27:54 PM  
From what I gather, it's pretty difficult for a decent estate planner to violate the rule against perpetuities.


True, but only because States have legislated against the rule against perpetuities. Alaska allows perpetuities for 1000 years. So whatever transcation your doing, if it looks like a perpetuity, putthe trust assets in an Alaska bank. alaska law, you're good to go for 1000 years. I think Florida is 300+. A competition among states for trust work.
 
2007-09-13 03:29:45 PM  
I bet you could charge double if they were still alive when buried.

That's the Deluxe Package and right now it's "Bury Three, the Fourth's On Me" to celebrate black history month.
 
2007-09-13 03:31:17 PM  
danlpoon: I bet you could charge double if they were still alive when buried.

That's the Deluxe Package and right now it's "Bury Three, the Fourth's On Me" to celebrate black history month.


And whoopy whoops head just exploded with fury.
 
2007-09-13 03:31:40 PM  
SchlingFo and incrdbil did you read the same line I did?

He said the association's bylaws clearly require special assessments to be endorsed "by the majority of the residential unit owners at a special election called and publicized for that specific purpose."

It does actually specify a majority of "owners at a special election" not "all owners". Though we don't have access to the by-laws to read them ourselves, given the information in that article the judges decision seems to contradict the facts. As already stated, a large number of people did agree with the plan, and if all homeowners had voted it quite likely still would have passed. I could see myself voting yes for such a measure if the plans for the new facility included something I could use and would consider worth the $6k price.
 
2007-09-13 03:32:11 PM  
SchlingFo: there were local ordinances, there'd be no need for HOAs

Wrong. A house can look pitiful from the outside, with cracked windows, overgrown lawns, cars on blocks, and peeling paint and still be structurally sound. A homeowner's association tells you that you can't let your house look like crap.

Some associations are way too nitpicky, I'll agree, but at the most basic level it keeps homes from becoming eyesores.

I live in a townhouse complex. If one neighbor does something retarded, it effects everyone in his unit. If I don't paint my part of the deck every couple years, it costs everyone money. If I decide to install a bay window on my part, it makes the rest of the units looks stupid. If I leave garbage on the front of my stoop, my neighbor has to smell it... none of those things are illegal, but they are inconsiderate. For the most part, the government stays out of inconsiderate unless it serves a political purpose (like anti-smoking laws).
 
2007-09-13 03:33:12 PM  
SpeedRacerX: Most HOA-haters don't have investment-level properties.

You seriously deserve a cock punch for such a stupid comment.
 
2007-09-13 03:33:57 PM  
And whoopy whoops head just exploded with fury.
I know. I can't help myself today. Bored.
 
Displayed 50 of 389 comments

First | « | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | » | Last | Show all



This thread is archived, and closed to new comments.

Continue Farking
Submit a Link »
On Twitter






In Other Media


  1. Links are submitted by members of the Fark community.

  2. When community members submit a link, they also write a custom headline for the story.

  3. Other Farkers comment on the links. This is the number of comments. Click here to read them.

  4. Click here to submit a link.

Report