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(Philly.com)   Internet-ordained ministers can no longer legally marry anyone. The judge opined: "It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage system," forgetting that everything makes a mockery of the marriage system   (philly.com) divider line 219
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9118 clicks; posted to Main » on 12 Sep 2007 at 1:57 PM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-09-12 03:21:48 PM  
shanec2000: Bishniak:
Did one on the bridge of the Enterprise, we past Anniv #2, have a child and a house

1701?


1701-D
 
2007-09-12 03:22:28 PM  
When I went to get my marriage license last year, I was told by the clerk that we could, for the grand price of $35, have anyone we wanted to perform the ceremony (legally). Apparently, the county issues permission, good for one day, for any named individual to perform your specific ceremony. He or she signs your marriage certificate and the whole thing is totally kosher. I'm pretty sure this person even gets a comemerative certificate as well.

/I'm assuming this is done to raise money
//San Diego is totally broke...
///...and, seemingly, not trying all that hard to stay classy
 
2007-09-12 03:23:05 PM  
I came in here to see the religion/online ordination bashing and was pleasantly surprised to be disappointed by its absence.

A level-headed and well-reasoned discussion favoring religion (off-mainstream, at that) and personal choice over the rule of law, on FARK..? Did I connect to some NegaWorld FARK server by bizarre mistake?

To steer from threadjack, I agree with the dominant opinions that the gov't has no business/reason to legislate who officiates and that this ruling will likely not pass muster if (when) challenged.

/ULC ordained 10+ years..
//..only performed 1 marriage..they're still together..
///..all this talk and no-one has yet mentioned the Beer Church connection..?!?
//Minister of Perpetual Consumption since '02..
/One more slashie for FARKers dropping the ball.. :P
 
2007-09-12 03:24:43 PM  
My best friend is a ULC ordained minister and I had him perform my wedding ceremony. It had a lot more meaning and significance to my wife and me than if the ceremony had been conducted by a JP or "real" minister.

/going on 10 years next month
//hooray for us
///extra slashies for mutually respectful marriages
 
2007-09-12 03:28:10 PM  
artvandelay22: When I went to get my marriage license last year, I was told by the clerk that we could, for the grand price of $35, have anyone we wanted to perform the ceremony (legally). Apparently, the county issues permission, good for one day, for any named individual to perform your specific ceremony. He or she signs your marriage certificate and the whole thing is totally kosher. I'm pretty sure this person even gets a comemerative certificate as well.

/I'm assuming this is done to raise money
//San Diego is totally broke...
///...and, seemingly, not trying all that hard to stay classy


That seems like a reasonable policy. Anyone should be allowed to act as officiant. The $35 fee isn't prohibitively expensive, and there is likely additional paperwork that has to be processed by the clerk's office.
 
2007-09-12 03:30:07 PM  
I'm a minister in the Mother Earth Church so I'm getting a kick . . .

/really
 
2007-09-12 03:31:03 PM  
Bishniak: shanec2000: Bishniak:
Did one on the bridge of the Enterprise, we past Anniv #2, have a child and a house

1701?

1701-D


as a tangent, I went to the Hilton the day before I wed to see 3 couples tie the knot on the bridge. Not a one of them or their party was in costume. Nary a comm badge nor a pip in sight. It forced me to ask the question, "Why bother marrying on the Enterprise if you're not going to dress the part?"

/All but her Grandmother were in costume.
//Had a Klingon there for good measure.
//Card carrying Nerd & Trekkie.
 
2007-09-12 03:32:17 PM  
monkeyinafez: My best friend is a ULC ordained minister and I had him perform my wedding ceremony. It had a lot more meaning and significance to my wife and me than if the ceremony had been conducted by a JP or "real" minister.

/going on 10 years next month
//hooray for us
///extra slashies for mutually respectful marriages


You sir, have been living in sin. You may also be committing tax and insurance fraud. Based on this court ruling and the proposed legislation, you and your "wife" were never legally married.
 
2007-09-12 03:33:36 PM  
Thorak: Gecko Gingrich: Just because society respects someone, doesn't mean I have to, or that I have to pick someone of respect to say to me and someone else, "I now pronounce you man and wife."

If you can prove that "you were not of fit mind" (ie, drunk) or coerced, then a contract is quite easy to get annulled.

Proving it can be quite the trick. Especially if you don't realize how stupid it was for a couple days.


Since when has convenience been a valid reason for legislation to *limit* civil liberties?

Yes, *that* officiant can decide that *that* officiant won't marry you, but he or she cannot decide that you can't get married.

So what? That hasn't been an argument that anybody but you's been attacking, and it has no relevance to my judge analogy.


Erm, yes it does. If a judge decides not to sentence someone to prison, another judge (of equal court status) cannot just come along and decide to do so. If an officiant decides not to marry two people, the two people can simply get another officiant. A judge has legislative power behind him. His decision is *enforced* by law. The officiant's decision is not. If he decides two people aren't fit to get married, they aren't legally *required* not to get married, they simply don't have an officiant to sign the papers...yet.

In fact, once you've been sentenced by one judge, you need another to appeal you. Much the way that once you've been married by someone, you need a judge to divorce you.

Yes, but you can't just go to any random judge and get the decision reversed. There is a legal structure and a hierarchy of judges and once the supreme court rules, that is it. The legal construct that allows appeals is not the same as freedom of choice.

Being able to contest a suspension of your drivers license is not the same as being able to find a buddy to drive you around.
 
2007-09-12 03:34:58 PM  
Sheds a tear for the divorce attorney who won't be able to collect a fee for this case:

content.answers.com
 
2007-09-12 03:35:10 PM  
I was married by an internet minister.


seriously.
 
2007-09-12 03:37:10 PM  
What if your religion doesn't have appointed clergy?

What if there are no ministers or priests or bishops?

What if you are Quaker?

...can we just not get married?
 
2007-09-12 03:38:38 PM  
prjindigo: I wonder if the judge realizes that the issuance of licensing for preachers to marry people who have to have a separate license to even be married when the legal system says that the marriage license IS the marriage is a duplicity of taxation that also aggregates to TAXATION OF A CHURCH.

You made my head asplode
 
2007-09-12 03:39:32 PM  
The marriage system is a mockery of itself. No interference needed. The whole system needs to be deleted, and rebuilt from the ground up.
 
2007-09-12 03:39:33 PM  
Shame on all of you. I was expecting a gay marriage flamewar.
 
2007-09-12 03:41:08 PM  
Smarshmallow: I was "married" by an internet minister.


seriously.


Based on this court ruling and proposed legislation, you are not legally married. From now on, you should include quotes whenever refering to your "spouse." Make sure you immediately drop your "spouse" from your insurance policy. You should also stop filing taxes as a married person and amend any previous returns you filled jointly.
 
2007-09-12 03:41:39 PM  
Joke Pro - Based on this ruling and the proposed legislation, you and your "wife" have been living in sin. Also, you are committing tax fraud if you file as a married couple. In addition, if your "wife" is covered on your insurance policy, you are committing insurance fraud. This court ruling and proposed legislation will turn thousands of people into criminal fornicators and countless children into bastards.

OMG! And I live in Idaho, where unlawful cohabitation is still technically a felony punishable by PMITA prison time (hold the jokes until later, please.) But, as someone once pointed out to me, there are so many police officers, lawyers and judges people shacking up right now, the chances are pretty slim that anyone would every be prosecuted for it.

/thank goodness we're too old to breed!
 
2007-09-12 03:42:54 PM  
Jesufication: I'm an internet-ordained minister twice over.

Guy I used to work with is a Universal Life Church minister. (He's actually an atheist, but that's beside the point.) He did it just to have a cool card to whip out when people play battle of the wallets. Anyway, he's at a friend's wedding when they get the call from the priest that he's stuck in traffic and can't make it for another hour and a half. The guy brought his wedding officiant stuff just in case and wound up marrying them. It became a second job for him, he's done almost 300 by now. Show up at a party, get treated like a king, an hour of work, 300 bucks.

I would like to become a notary public, but you have to pay a large sum of money to do so in Florida, I think. Hopefully no one overturns marriages like that here.

I just sent my notary application in yesterday. Here in NJ, it's only $25, and the commission is five years. I should hear back from them in three to four weeks. For some reason, you have to get your state legislator to sign your application before it gets sent in.
 
2007-09-12 03:44:03 PM  
"Internet-ordained ministers can no longer legally marry anyone."

So they have to stay single?
 
2007-09-12 03:47:03 PM  
Dammit, I'm an internet ordained priest and I'm not getting a kick out of this.

/no really
//Universal Life Church of Modesto California
//no link, I had to look it up too
 
2007-09-12 03:49:49 PM  
I'm about to get married by a friend who was ordained online, so I'm getting a real kick out of these replies...

/no, really.
 
2007-09-12 03:53:24 PM  
In Pennsylvania you don't really need to be married officially. All you need to do is state you are married. That and other unknown laws are in place to fit the Amish population into the system.
 
2007-09-12 03:55:41 PM  
Funny thing is, DC has already effectively banned the online ministries. My wife and I wanted my father to do it, but the Mormons wouldn't sign off on a license for him (he's not high up enough in the ranks to marry according to them). He went and got the online ordination -- figuring it's not like it mattered at a spiritual level, but was an excellent way to beat the system -- and then we found out that DC wouldn't take it, because there was no one from that church to sign off that he was a minister.

Frustrating though that was, it's actually a moderately effective way to ban "fake" churches without the state discriminating on the basis of religion; you just let the churches do their own discriminating.
 
2007-09-12 03:59:29 PM  
roikuro: What if your religion doesn't have appointed clergy?

What if there are no ministers or priests or bishops?

What if you are Quaker?

...can we just not get married?


When I got married in PA, I was issued a marriage certificate that already had the signature of the court clerk (or judge or whatever) on it. The only empty spaces to sign were for me, my wife, and two witnesses. We just signed it, submitted it, and that was it. A friend performed our ceremony two days later. It seems to me that pretty much anybody in PA can perform a marriage ceremony if you apply for the license at City Hall.

I believe that PA does this because of the Quakers.
 
2007-09-12 03:59:58 PM  
and now I'm praying for the end of time
to hurry up and arrive
cuz if i got to spend another minute with you
i don't think that i will really survive

i'll never break my promise or forget my vow
but god only knows what i could do right now
i'm praying for the end of time
that's all that i can do

praying for the end of time
so i can end my time with you
 
2007-09-12 04:01:40 PM  
I am a ULC minister. Married my friends. They got divorced.

0-1. Fail.
 
2007-09-12 04:02:36 PM  
As an ordained pope in the Church of the SubGenius, I scoff at all you mere "ministers", in addition to getting a kick out of some of these replies, etc.
 
2007-09-12 04:05:05 PM  
noit: In Pennsylvania you don't really need to be married officially. All you need to do is state you are married. That and other unknown laws are in place to fit the Amish population into the system.

This used to be true, but not anymore. They overturned the Common Law Marriage thing in PA several years ago. There are several other states where it's still the case, though.

Here's a link with more info.
 
2007-09-12 04:05:38 PM  
jokepro: Based on this court ruling and proposed legislation, you are not legally married. From now on, you should include quotes whenever refering to your "spouse." Make sure you immediately drop your "spouse" from your insurance policy. You should also stop filing taxes as a married person and amend any previous returns you filled jointly.

If I were married in Pennsylvania, maybe this would apply.
 
2007-09-12 04:07:13 PM  
I'm a ULC ordained minister and I've performed 3 marriages in Pennsylvania. I hope everything will still be kosher for the 2 couples who are still together.

/Better than the national average, w00t!
 
2007-09-12 04:08:15 PM  
I am a ULC minister. Married my friends. They got divorced.

0-1. Fail.


of course it probably didn't help that at the same wedding my best friend played the ceremony music on guitar.

as the married couple walked down the aisle together i thought i recognized the songs he was strumming... they were jazzed up a bit, but still recognizable:

Led Zeppelin - Babe I'm Gonna Leave You
Cheryl Crow - You're My Favorite Mistake
 
2007-09-12 04:09:49 PM  
Phew, it's only in PA, I'm safe in SD to marry as many people as I liked
 
2007-09-12 04:11:10 PM  
I married a couple of my friends by getting ordained by the ULC. They weren't religious and their family wasn't going to be there. Instead of going to City Hall I got ordained and some other of our friends got together and then went camping I then married them in front of a river. It was a great time and it was special to me to be able to do it and it was special to them to have someone they knew performing the ceremony.
 
2007-09-12 04:15:00 PM  
schnarff: Funny thing is, DC has already effectively banned the online ministries. My wife and I wanted my father to do it, but the Mormons wouldn't sign off on a license for him (he's not high up enough in the ranks to marry according to them). He went and got the online ordination -- figuring it's not like it mattered at a spiritual level, but was an excellent way to beat the system -- and then we found out that DC wouldn't take it, because there was no one from that church to sign off that he was a minister.

Frustrating though that was, it's actually a moderately effective way to ban "fake" churches without the state discriminating on the basis of religion; you just let the churches do their own discriminating.


If the requirement was a letter of good standing, then the ULC could have provided one.
 
2007-09-12 04:17:43 PM  
I'm a ULC minister. I got the ordination mostly because I was a pagan priest before that and while my self ordination is not recognized by the government, the ULC ordination is. In fact, there are a number of pagan groups that have their legal back via the ULC.

This only concerns me because I have officiated one marriage that required me to sign the marriage certificate. (I've officiated others, but they were not concerned with legal marriage so much as a religious blessing).

Still, I fail to see how in the eyes of the law it matters whether I was made a minister by the laying on of hands or the clicking of a mouse: an organization chose to count me a worthy minister. While I accept that a state has the right to acknowledge some marriages and not others, I don't understand the standard by which some make the decision. It is too close to the state being able to say that one person is a valid minister and another isn't.

I'm hoping I can find the follow-up to this case. Similar cases have gone to higher courts before and the ULC and it's ministers have been validated. Hopefully, this will go the same way.
 
2007-09-12 04:21:15 PM  
The ULC already isn't recognized as able to perform marraiges in two other places: North Carolina and New York City. I'm not surprised to see another state say "Uh-uh."
 
2007-09-12 04:31:30 PM  
While I'm also an ordained ULC minister I haven't yet presided over a marriage. I did use my clergy ID once to get past the evil Nazi nurse who wouldn't let me visit my friend in ICU. He was thrilled to learn that I was there to perform last rites for him and not to discuss football. As luck would have it last rites in my church involves plenty of football banter so he was in luck.

/Yes he survived...thanks in no small part to my timely spiritual intervention I'm sure.
 
2007-09-12 04:34:17 PM  
Inaditch: Heyer said she agreed such a ceremony did not have legal standing. "It makes a mockery out of the whole marriage system," she said.

Personally, I think a stupid kid that decides to get married when they're not ready (which is clear since they split up 7 months later) makes a mockery of the whole system.


Beat me to it by a mere couple hundred posts.
 
2007-09-12 04:37:00 PM  
The next time I feel like getting married, I'm just going to find a woman I can't stand, and buy her a house.

/not mine
//internet reverend
 
2007-09-12 04:37:29 PM  
DAMN. I got the ULC ordination because I'm want to give the opening invocation during our state's legislative session. Seems you have to be a "minister" to do this, so now I am one. An atheist minister, but ULC doesn't care.

It should be shiatloads of fun when I actually get to say the opening "prayer". Who knows, I might just make fark under my real name?
 
2007-09-12 04:41:05 PM  
Inaditch: If I ever get married again, I want the ceremony to be performed by a ship's captain.

Yeah. Even my lesbian UU minister has all these antiquated ideas. She had the nerve to ask me whether a monkey can even consent to matrimonial bonds.
 
2007-09-12 04:44:53 PM  
It's bizarre what supposedly is the sanctity of marriage and what is a mockery of marriage.

Two loving, lifelong monogamous partners who happen to both be male can't get married, because that somehow threatens the whole system.

A friend of mine in the National Guard was called up for Iraq, and realizing he would get much higher pay for being married and his spouse would get substantial benefits while he was deployed, he "married" a female acquaintance of his so he could get the higher pay and she could get the medical benefits for his year overseas, then they got a quickie divorce once he returned. That's the "sanctity" of marriage.

I know a lesbian couple that is legally married despite the state having a so-called "defense of marriage amendment", because one of the women was born a male, and the state they used to live in didn't recognize sex changes legally so she was legally a male and couldn't marry a man, but could marry a woman. That's also supposed to be preserving the sanctity of marriage.

I'm a ULC Minister myself, because I'm a practicing pagan priest and the legal status of being a minister means that if I want to officiate a marriage I can. Then again, I live in a state where precedent and case law says the ULC is legally valid.
 
2007-09-12 04:45:40 PM  
i2.photobucket.com

By the power vested in me as an ordained SubGenius Reverend, I now pronounce that everyone who posts to this thread is married to everyone else who posts to this thread.

You have one hour to have SEX before your Short Duration Marriage ends. Unless somebody wants to buy me a Total Fark membership, in which case I will make it forever + 1 hour.

But the SEX is obligatory, so get to it.
 
2007-09-12 04:46:32 PM  
Gwendolyn: Inaditch: If I ever get married again, I want the ceremony to be performed by a ship's captain.

My second marriage was in Vegas. Best thing ever. It was quick cheap and fun.


I came here to say that.
First Wedding: church wedding, lasted 5 years
Second Wedding: vegas (bally's chapel), 14 years yesterday

more people came to second one.. :-)
was a kick-ass party
 
2007-09-12 04:49:01 PM  
I switch from Universal Life to Term Life. Much cheaper.
 
2007-09-12 04:50:50 PM  
chronarchy: The ULC already isn't recognized as able to perform marraiges in two other places: North Carolina and New York City. I'm not surprised to see another state say "Uh-uh."

Utah tried to do the same but was sued by the ULC and lost. It will be interesting to see if they sue PA also.
 
2007-09-12 04:55:09 PM  
I think what Gecko Gingrich is trying to say is:

I know that it's the government's concern as to if two people (or more) are married -- we just wonder why the government has to be involved in the arrangement of that marriage.

Right?

Especially since the government (Federal, at least) isn't supposed to have any say in who can get married to who (children, animals, and handicapped people aside).
 
Ear
2007-09-12 04:55:48 PM  
Let's say hypothetically, someone got married like this almost 7 years ago. Would this hypothetical person (man) be able to then challenge that marriage in court and not lose 1/2 his retirement account and 1/2 the house that is in just his name. Hypothetically.
 
2007-09-12 05:03:42 PM  
In Florida (and I belive only two other states) you only have to be a Notary Public to marry someone. Because marriage is nothing more than a legally binding contract. So, you only have to have someone who can verify that you are who you say you are and that the two witnesses are who they say they are and that they willfully consent to the marriage.

Honestly, I don't understand why it isn't like this in every state. It absolutely should be. That way, no one could ever be denied a marriage because they don't belong to a church or because of their faith/lack of faith. My two best friends (who live in Tennessee) couldn't get anyone to marry them. They are both atheists. The justice of the peace wouldn't perform the marriage because they weren't christian, and of course almost no church is going to marry someone that isn't a member and in good standing in the church. They finally found the preacher of the church that his sister attends that agreed to perform the ceremony, but only after a counceling session.

That's not right. shiat like that should never happen. Every state should allow Notaries Public to perform weddings.

They absolutely should allow gay marriage as well, but you see how that goes.
 
2007-09-12 05:25:26 PM  
PatientZero: Right?

Yes.
 
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