vygramul
To say the North fought the war over slavery is like saying the US fought WWII over the Holocaust. Neither is true.

You may be correct, but as a result of the Civil War, slavery was abolished. As a result of World War II, the Holocaust was stopped.

It's perfectly fine that the North won.

The great equalizer is that the best food, finest women, and nicest views never left the South. Huzzah!

vygramul: I mean, what more proof do you need than reading the emancipation proclamation? It freed slaves ONLY in areas the North did *not* control. So while the Union was more than happy to free all those Democrats' slaves, they did not free the ones they, themselves, were capable of freeing.

The EP didn't free the slaves in the north because the president does not have the power to unilaterally overturn the constitution. The EP only affected those states under martial law, i.e. the states in rebellion. The 13th Ammendment freed all the slaves.

The EP was more a politcal document. Lincoln held onto it until there was a signficant Union victory to give it greater impact. The real target audience for the EP was the European powers. By making the war about slavery and showing he had an army to be reckoned with, Lincoln got the Europeans to withdraw their support from the South. Worked quite well, I'd say.

It's easy to make revisionist cynical remarks about the EP, however Lincoln was a savvy enough politician to know when to speak and when to hold your tongue and bide your time. Had Lincoln proclaimed that the war about slavery back in 1861, he would have lost all support in congress and therefore doomed the cause of emancipation for much longer.

I say we grant them their independence once and for all. Maybe the US will be a better country.

They can have their government, while we have ours. Everyone wins.

inTheJungle 2007-09-09 12:02:23 PM
Har har, Confederacy = LOSERS.

If you salute or honor display the Battle Flag of a seditious group that attacked the United States of America

Someone failed history and constitutional law.

1) North shot first (War of northern aggression go its name from this Fact)

2) Please quote the article that states that a State does not have the right to 'quit' the union.

furiousxgeorge [TotalFark] 2007-09-09 03:36:22 PM
The Confederacy was exactly as evil as Al Qaeda, more in fact if you look at the death toll.

There isn't an idiot-stick large enough to measure the level of stupid in just those 19 words. Damn boy you one dumb-mo-fo.

mud_shark: Of the War Between The States was about slavery, why did Lincoln not issue the Emancipation Proclamation until it was nearly over?

Lincoln believed that slavery was a great sin that stained the Republic long before he was elected President. Moreover, although Lincoln considered the idea of emancipation long before the Proclamation was issued, he had profound respect for the Constitution and had deeply-rooted reservations about his authority as President to order emancipation. But Lincoln was also a deeply religious and moral man, and after 3 years of war and staggering losses on both sides he came to believe that Emancipation was willed by God. The language of his Second Inaugural Address reflects his internal struggle:

If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.

see http://www.claremont.org/publications/pubid.333/pub_detail.asp

Focuses on Lincoln as a pragmatist and politician, with no reference to his moral indignation w/ respect to slavery, but still a good capsule.

stpickrell: aerojockey
They favored states' rights because they wanted the right to continue enslaving dark-skinned people without federal interference.

I find it odd how many seem to favor the rights of GOVERNMENTS over INDIVIDUALS. I think any libertarian that thinks the south was somehow 'in the right' needs to hand in his libertarian card post haste.

mmm... pancake
After the secession, it ceased to be property of the US considering it was in South Carolina. At that point, the soldiers inside the Confederate fort were foreign invaders occupying Confederate land.

At that point the US government was due compensation. I do not recall compensation ever being offered for it. I recall resupply ships being fired upon, and then the fort itself.

I've never supported a state's "right" to maintain slavery.

The right of states to maintain slavery was the primary issue behind the 11 states leaving the Union.

The institution of slavery is the direct result of the failure of the state to do what it is supposed to do; protect the rights of the citizens.

Yes. Therefore a state government that fails to do this is less legitimate than one that does.

I support a person's right to say the n-word. In your mind, though, I'm sure that make me a racist.

There is precious little reason other than that for a white person under age 40 to be using the n-word in public.

The people in the state have a right to determine who their leaders will be, do they not?

I'll remember that the next time you complain about the New Deal.

You're a moron. Next time you're in high school, try to pay attention, a little.

Assuming you're not getting the glossed-over "the North is so great" education.

It's not too difficult to pick up a farking book and read, yet it surprises me how often morons like you refuse to read anything that doesn't resort to CNN or MSNBC partisan bullshiat.

The literacy rate in Kazakhstan is something like 95%, and they're a post-bloc country. Do yourself a favor: READ. Quit embarassing the US.