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(The Raw Story)   Old and busted: Shock and Awe, leading to a drawn-out occupation. New hotness: Three days of absolute destruction, then get the hell out   (rawstory.com) divider line 1347
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31729 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Sep 2007 at 10:26 AM (7 years ago)   |  Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-09-04 12:53:56 PM
If Bush goes though with this we'll need some of these items when traveling

www.baronbob.com

and

ec1.images-amazon.com
 
2007-09-04 12:54:24 PM
Wow I suck at HTML....

cut and paste

Conspiracy theory rock / funny cartoon skit from Saturday Night Live

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1057391195915718366&q=Conspiracy+Theory+ Rock&total=71&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Bill Moyers Talks With Jon Stewart of the Daily Show

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/050107C.shtml

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/011807B.shtml
Bill Moyers: Life on the Plantation
MUST SEE lecture on the state of media manipulation by corporate interests
 
2007-09-04 12:55:00 PM
czarangelus

There was never peace during either of those "Pax" periods. It was just the populations of Rome and London sitting pretty while they committed genocide against tribes a thousand miles away.

Never have I read a statement with which I so fully agree! Well done sir.
 
2007-09-04 12:55:14 PM
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

That's awful. Iranians should do something to stop that. If they won't, we should? Is that what you're saying?

Just curious.
 
2007-09-04 12:55:24 PM
@Lexslaman "Israelis have targeted and oppressed Muslim civilians since the foundation of their state, as is evident in the current concentration of Palestinians in refugee camps and ghettos"

... and is contradicted by the 1.5 million content Israelis that are Muslims and live in Israel.

I just have to ask, have you ever been read or told anything and questioned it?


@Sir Charles "But don't take my word for it, go read General Giap's autobiography"

I agree with that. The title is "Victory at Any Cost" and it is a really read, thou I think as conditioned as most here are they wouldn't be able to deal with the truth of it.

@Cerebral Ballsy "I doubt it. The middle east was a mess before Irael existed and even before the US existed."

That's madness, it was all sunshine and joy before the 50s and the upstart joo's! Just ask around, someone will surely tell ya that.
 
2007-09-04 12:55:33 PM
Afternoon_Delight: The official Jon Snow photo:

Since you don't seem to be able to process arguments unsupplemented by pictures:

img524.imageshack.us
 
2007-09-04 12:55:38 PM
Cerebral Ballsy: That's a laugh! A general scapegoating liberals. Who'da thunk it.

My dog isn't in this fight but..... his point was that General Giap CREDITS American politics for handing the North Vietnamese a victory when in fact the Tet offensive destroyed the Viet Cong and was a complete failure militarily.

/just sayin'
 
2007-09-04 12:56:12 PM
So the entire 21st century is going to be one big long holy war? Gosh humanity, you sure are an impressive bunch. You've really come a long way, baby.
 
2007-09-04 12:56:50 PM
lexslamman: UnkleKrakker

The ironic thing is that before Israelis insisted on seceding from Palestinians (for mostly racist reasons, even though most Americans could not distinguish between Israelis and Palestinians if they were dressed the same standing next to each other) and kicking Muslims off their family and historical lands, they coexisted mostly peacefully. A quick look at the history of the Ottoman Empire shows that Jews were treated with dignity and respect (for a modest price (tax/levy), of course) by the Sultans. Muslims had no problems with the Jews until the Jews started to hate all-over the Muslims. It is interesting that the antisemitism we see in the Middle East is largely a European import.


I will again point you straight to the UN partition, no such thing as a "Palestinian" nation prior to 1948. If you think a tax on your religion is benign, I suggest you volunteer for it. And you have the hate thing backwards.
 
2007-09-04 12:57:24 PM
The only people who are against aggressive totalitarian fascism are those idiots who were too stupid to invest in it. War is GOOD Business; GREED IS GOOD!
 
2007-09-04 12:57:54 PM
UnkleKrakker: There are enough US ADA units with expanded capabilities along the Persian Gulf to take out most of the Russian Air force let alone Iran's

Why would they need an airforce to bomb these countries?
 
2007-09-04 12:58:16 PM
deja vu in this thread.

Seriously can there be new arguments?
 
2007-09-04 12:58:30 PM
Tatsuma:
Charlie Freak: Tatsuma, it seems you're painting terrorism with big, broad brushstrokes in order to place a very negative label on something you don't want to admit is a bonafide war tactic, because if you admitted that, you might not win the internets.

You can bet your ass that if, in 30 years, we were invaded by another, more powerful country - and if I was still alive, I'd resort to all sorts of "terrorist" (in your book) actions to remove or otherwise weaken that threat.

/Wolverines!

I've got no problems with people attacking military targets. I certainly would be a guerrilla fighter and attack military target if my country was invaded. However, I would not be a terrorist, because I would not attack nor condone attacks of innocent civilians to reach said goals.



I suppose it's not a very black and white issue, but truth be told - if it came down to it - if terroristic/asymmetrical attacks could possibly benefit my family's long-term well-being and there was really no direct way of counering their military force (I mean, what good is an AK-47 against an F-15I?), I'd choose taking out targets the enemy holds dear. If the only targets of opportunity are civilians and it makes the enemy (or their enemies) react in a way that benefits me, then it's a no-brainer.

It's like chess: your queen is in checkmate - but instead of succumbing, you destroy the chess board.
 
2007-09-04 12:58:33 PM
dennysgod: If Bush goes though with this we'll need some of these items when traveling

That's too funny. When my brother was stationed in Europe in the 70's he had a backpack with a huge maple leaf on it for when he went cycling, just in case.
 
2007-09-04 12:58:34 PM
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

Wow, that's a hard way to go. I wonder where N.O.W. is on this? They seem to be really silent when it comes to atrocities in the middle east.
 
2007-09-04 12:59:32 PM
I still bet anyone a year of TF that there will not be a war with Iran before the Bush Administration is over, barring something huge like a nuclear strike by Iran.

Note that this does not include a brief bombing of the country, a la Cambodia during Vietnam or Iraq in between the two Gulf Wars. It has to be a full-on invasion.

/Any takers?
 
2007-09-04 12:59:39 PM
I can't wait for the explosions, I hope a bomb lands right on Ahmandinejad (or however that ridiculous name is spelled).
 
2007-09-04 01:00:17 PM
czarangelus: UnkleKrakker: There are enough US ADA units with expanded capabilities along the Persian Gulf to take out most of the Russian Air force let alone Iran's

Why would they need an airforce to bomb these countries?


Gee, I guess they could just throw them really, really hard. Planes, missiles, same thing to PAC3
 
2007-09-04 01:00:34 PM
I have read (correct me if I'm wrong) that Iranian nuclear facilities are built deep underground and it might take (at least) nuclear weapons to destroy them. Since they know the U.S. has bunker-buster bombs, I doubt they would leave themselves vulnerable to an easy attack.

So who gets to use the nukes (if needed) on Iran? Israel (which has never admitted having them -wink-wink) or the U.S.?
 
2007-09-04 01:00:38 PM
Apoe

... and is contradicted by the 1.5 million content Israelis that are Muslims and live in Israel.

... who don't have rights equal to those of the Israelis who live there.
 
2007-09-04 01:00:51 PM
Apoe

... and is contradicted by the 1.5 million content Israelis that are Muslims and live in Israel.

I just have to ask, have you ever been read or told anything and questioned it?


...but is supported by the living conditions of the 3.8 million Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and West Bank, and the 3 million Palestinians (est) who live in Jordan. Also don't forget that Israel treats its Muslim population largely as second-class citizens due to its irrational fears over terrorism.

I am an Arabist and have extensively studied the Middle East, including conflicting sources by both Jews and Muslims, the literature of fundamentalists on both sides, government documents from the UN, US, Israel, and NATO countries, and scholarly articles and writings by internationally respected experts.
 
2007-09-04 01:00:55 PM
Fireproof: Note that this does not include a brief bombing of the country, a la Cambodia during Vietnam or Iraq in between the two Gulf Wars. It has to be a full-on invasion.

In what parallel dimension is there an Iran who won't retaliate with maximum force to a "brief bombing?"
 
2007-09-04 01:01:12 PM
lunch over
 
2007-09-04 01:01:15 PM
I'm a theater nuclear warhead, so I'm getting a kick out this thread...
upload.wikimedia.org

/Haven't actually read the responses, just looked at the pics.
//You think I'm gonna read 600 arguments???
 
2007-09-04 01:01:23 PM
shiat, looks like I'm late to the party, but it appears czarangelus is hoggin the attention.
May I introduce exhibit A:

IDF chicks:
farm2.static.flickr.com

czarangelus:
farm2.static.flickr.com

Listn bud, if you're such a goddamned expert on Middle Eastern religion, culture and military tactics, why don't you get a job with the government and prevent us from getting into this sort of mess, rather than expend all of that energy on FARK.
/p.s. I do love you though
 
2007-09-04 01:01:33 PM
FarkinMad: spickus: trappedspirit: 2 words...
silica automobile storage area
Glass Parking-lot
1,2,3,4.... Fail? Yes you do.


No, there's still four words in the post I replied to and three in your rebuttal.

F-A-L-E
 
2007-09-04 01:01:58 PM
Tatsuma I've got no problems with people attacking military targets. I certainly would be a guerrilla fighter and attack military target if my country was invaded. However, I would not be a terrorist, because I would not attack nor condone attacks of innocent civilians to reach said goals.

If you support the Israeli or US army, you already support killing civilians and innocents... sometimes it's inevitable, maybe not always intended, but it's going to occur.

War is not all black and white.
 
2007-09-04 01:01:59 PM
Charlie Freak:
It's like chess: your queen is in checkmate - but instead of succumbing, you destroy the chess board.


Ummmm... you mean your King, right?
 
2007-09-04 01:02:17 PM
Fortunately for us, the Iranians aren't clever enough to have hidden any of their nuclear processing equipment "just in case".

And even if they did, our intelligence services are really good at keeping track of important things like that.

So we can take for granted that an air assault would once and for all resolve the issue.
 
2007-09-04 01:02:17 PM
Fireproof: /Any takers?

If there ends up being a full-on war against Iran, TF won't matter any more. Most of us will be getting loaded on to planes and shipped to basic and then to the front lines.
 
2007-09-04 01:02:31 PM
Tatsuma:

Did you read up on those US depleted uranium rounds in Iraq?

See you don't even have to worry about Iran using nuclear weapons on the US. We doing it to our own troops. Our veterans are going to be bringing home radiation illnesses from our own ammunition.

Whatever dickhead in the US military okayed using uranium on ammunition should be tried for war crimes.
 
2007-09-04 01:03:12 PM
UnkleKrakker: Gee, I guess they could just throw them really, really hard. Planes, missiles, same thing to PAC3

Your blind faith in military technology disturbs me.

When Iraq shot SCUDs at Israel, they did more damage after being destroyed than they would have if they had hit. See, the cloud of superheat, super-speed shrapnel did more damage than the missile itself would have. Fun fact.
 
2007-09-04 01:03:22 PM
UnkleKrakker: Really? Don't recall anyone running of with the loser's women in any of the major wars in the last century or so, could you point those out with a reference or two? Or are you only referencing pre-industrial war?

Comfort women
 
2007-09-04 01:04:04 PM
One cure for every country over there, screw the civilians, they are all combatants

rds.yahoo.com
 
2007-09-04 01:04:08 PM
Brave Sir Robin: Fortunately for us, the Iranians aren't clever enough to have hidden any of their nuclear processing equipment "just in case".

And even if they did, our intelligence services are really good at keeping track of important things like that.

So we can take for granted that an air assault would once and for all resolve the issue.


I LOL'd.
 
2007-09-04 01:04:15 PM
Well good gracious me! There's internet celebrity and tough guy Afternoon Delight! Tell me, O Wise One, for I am ignorant and hunger for knowledge: What should we call someone who is so pathetically insecure that he is compelled to return again and again and again and again and again to chatrooms he's been banned from, trolling with a half-dozen sockpuppets and new log-ins on a daily basis? What mental disorder forces someone to make an idiot of himself in public repeatedly and constantly, to the point where he's compulsively writing hundreds if not thousands of posts every day, each devoid of any content other than insults and belittling others??

What kind of sad, lonely, mentally deranged, insecure sick little mind would engage in this type of behaviour? Please enlighten us, O Wise One, for you are certainly an expert in this area.
 
2007-09-04 01:04:23 PM
czarangelus: In what parallel dimension is there an Iran who won't retaliate with maximum force to a "brief bombing?"

Exactly! If we are goint to bomb then we can't do it half-ass. We need complete destruction in order to assure no reprisals. Good thinking Czar.
 
2007-09-04 01:04:29 PM
ultraholland: Listn bud, if you're such a goddamned expert on Middle Eastern religion, culture and military tactics, why don't you get a job with the government and prevent us from getting into this sort of mess, rather than expend all of that energy on FARK.

Cuz all the CIA agents who tried that got ignored/fired/publically outed.
 
2007-09-04 01:05:18 PM
karnasaur: Charlie Freak:
It's like chess: your queen is in checkmate - but instead of succumbing, you destroy the chess board.

Ummmm... you mean your King, right?


Dammit! All these years of protecting my Queen - that's why I always lose at chess.
 
2007-09-04 01:05:41 PM
So if we bomb Iran, will Iranian and Iraqi Shia respond with suicide attacks on our troops in Iraq?
 
2007-09-04 01:05:41 PM
JDAT: Exactly! If we are goint to bomb then we can't do it half-ass. We need complete destruction in order to assure no reprisals. Good thinking Czar.

Yes... that's exactly what we need to do to people like you if we're ever going to reject Imperial America.
 
2007-09-04 01:05:58 PM
Uh, doesn't "annihilating" their conventional military just encourage development of a nuclear deterrent?

/But don't let common sense get in your way
 
2007-09-04 01:06:04 PM
JDAT: czarangelus: In what parallel dimension is there an Iran who won't retaliate with maximum force to a "brief bombing?"

Exactly! If we are goint to bomb then we can't do it half-ass. We need complete destruction in order to assure no reprisals. Good thinking Czar.


The word I was going for was "going" sorry spelling nazi's
 
2007-09-04 01:06:53 PM
Tatsuma I've got no problems with people attacking military targets. I certainly would be a guerrilla fighter and attack military target if my country was invaded. However, I would not be a terrorist, because I would not attack nor condone attacks of innocent civilians to reach said goals.

Complicated issue. What if you were a Native American and the Westward expansion of Europeans went something like:
Send in Army to smash major resistance.
Civilians follow and set up settlements.
Civilians are well armed and take care of any remaining Natives.

As a Native person, would you attack these civilians? What if these same civilians were killing your source of food, or diverting your rivers for their own irrigation, or occasionally assaulting women/children of your nation, or denying your very existence (by saying that this land was empty when you came).

I think that, at some point, you would attack civilians.

Difficult issue.
 
2007-09-04 01:07:33 PM
wowzer97pooh: So if we bomb Iran, will Iranian and Iraqi Shia respond with suicide attacks on our troops in Iraq?

/most likely, unfortunately this administration believes in the "one step at a time" approach.
 
2007-09-04 01:08:33 PM
UnkleKrakker: Sure have, but the Japanese didn't trundle them all back to Japan

So they trundled them to a military brothel outside Japan rather than in Japan itself. I fail to see how this changes anything: they still trundled them off.

czar implied that every war involved two tribes, destruction and taking the women, which is a great line in Conan the Barbarian, but not true of most wars.

I'll leave you and Czar to it then.

After reading Czar's original tribe claim I did find it was rather hasty and poorly conceived.
Technically, it's even rarer for anyone to successfully "kill all the men" of a enemy country (even when they try to) than to kidnap women. It would have made more sense to have focused on that part then the one you did.

It's one of those red herrings he likes to throw out there. My original statement to him was that in most declared wars, civilians are not intentionally targeted.

Your right in the strictest sense that most countries don't deliberately target the civilians themselves, with some notable exceptions.
 
2007-09-04 01:08:42 PM
Lord_Baltimore: wowzer97pooh: Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

In a few years, after the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, you can retitle those pictures:

"American Woman stoned to death for Murdering Baby Via Abortion"

And you'll be so happy.

Idiot.

DECMATH: Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

Conservatives here outlaw "vices" too. Thank Gawd they can't stone violators to death (yet).

Idiot.


Snappy comeback. You want Shariah law in the US but only your kind of Shariah law. Because you have the CORRECT Word of God, unlike those savages who need to be bombed in praise of your God.
 
2007-09-04 01:08:56 PM
enoble_2000: One cure for every country over there, screw the civilians, they are all combatants

Yeah, but it works both ways. Change "over there" to "over here" and "they" to "we," and see what you've got.

That's why the world has things like the Geneva Convention.

God this site is stupid sometimes.

My apologies if you were joking.
 
2007-09-04 01:08:58 PM
czarangelus Cuz all the CIA agents who tried that got ignored/fired/publically outed.

Then perhaps you should adapt a tactic of the Mujahidin in the mine fields: overwhelm the agencies with honest, competent, knowledgeable people until there are too many to dispose of. You just need to lead the pack, man.
 
2007-09-04 01:10:21 PM
czarangelus: JDAT: Exactly! If we are goint to bomb then we can't do it half-ass. We need complete destruction in order to assure no reprisals. Good thinking Czar.

Yes... that's exactly what we need to do to people like you if we're ever going to reject Imperial America.


/Imperial America? sounds good.
//Have you begun the "protesting or worse" yet?
 
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