Lord_Baltimore: Let me state for the record that I don't believe we should have a proactive role in halting this brutality. However, the same men throwing those stones will soon have nuclear weapons if it were up to you. This what I don't want.

What you want is lockstep agreement that bombing Iran is a good idea. That is all you want.

No, you can't have support for this unjustified police action.

Not yours.

oh42na
Nice style, you can come over to my house and f*ck my sister.

ultraholland
MORE PICS OF HOT IDF CHICKS PLS!!1
Oh and czarangelus is gayer than a bag of hammers. (Therefore his points, no matter how well thought out, are invalidated.)

/took me about 6 years to figure out why a bag of hammers is ghey
//oh, and i don't have a sister, and that was just a movie reference
\i think i pwn3d this thread with the WAHABISM DELENDA EST! pic.
\\CASTLE AARRRRGGGHH

Sir Charles: If they are willing to accept 'innocent' casualties, they could defeat all 3 at once.

'innocent' in quotes as the civilian population provides support for the terrorists.
======================================================

Just like we all support Bush, right?

strobe: You know, just when I've read the most stupid thing on the internet, something like this comes across.

Try picking up a dictionary. An air strike is a military action of limited scope and objective. A war is an ongoing, open-ended military conflict with few if any limits on scope or objective beyond capitulation. An air strike may be an ACT OF WAR, but it is not "a war" as understood by anyone conversant in military operations.

This country has gone completely insane. How the hell did you poser Christians ever become so damned bloodthirsty?

I'm not a Christian and never claimed to be. And there's nothing insane or bloodthirsty about preemptively eliminating a credible and eminent threat to your safety. If wasps start building a nest in my attic, I'm not going to wait until my kids get stung to break out a can of Raid.

IRAN HAS NOT ATTACKED US!!!

So we should wait until they build some nukes and use them against us before we do something about it? Unlike Iraq, Iran actually has an active and viable nuclear weapons program.

Where is the morality? What ever happened to the golden rule?

I would argue that failing to protect yourself and those under your care against a known hostile adversary is immoral.

The golden rule is a nice philosophy, but it only works if both sides are rational actors and have compatible objectives. Religious fundamentalists are not rational actors nor is the objective of radical Islam (the conversion or death of all non-Islamic people) compatible with the objective of maintaining a secular democracy.

Serious Question

If we bomb Iran, what is the next step?

I mean, considering the awesome job we've done in Iraq I'm not sure that Nation Building or policing other countries is one of our talents...

DROxINxTHExWIND: Just like we all support Bush, right?

Many of them want us dead regardless who is in office.

I'd rather do something about it instead of defending their tactics and culture, as many do all day long here and elsewhere.

pwhp_67: I'm not sure that Nation Building or policing other countries is one of our talents...

Germany and Japan and the Phillipines all worked out pretty well...

pwhp_67

If we bomb Iran, what is the next step?

That is the point with this plan, there is no next step. No occupation, no regime change, nothing.

Bomb them and walk away.

JDAT: /Imperial America? sounds good.

Don't worry. Those loyal to the Republic have a plan for the Tories.

ultraholland: Then perhaps you should adapt a tactic of the Mujahidin in the mine fields: overwhelm the agencies with honest, competent, knowledgeable people until there are too many to dispose of. You just need to lead the pack, man.

A nice fantasy.

People like Tatsume construct elaborate denial and rationalities for war that help them make war fit into their definition of right and wrong according to their religion.

He'll support IDF but says he doesn't support bombing civilians. However, Israel bombs civilians almost every time it drops a bomb. Then his definition of "civilian" changes and innocents deaths are brushed aside and forgotten.

The same thing happens with people who vigorously defend the US military and its operations.. they will deny the deaths of innocents until they go crazy from it.

The question are there and they deserve not to be swept under the rug: How will our military action affect the civilian population? Is it worth it? What is the benefit of our military action? Will it solve our problem?

Lately we've applied the same style of fighting that we've always used with very limited results: is it worth it for us to attack another country? We should consider all of these questions before we attack, and by "we" I mean, us, the civilians of the US.

They say they will only attack in three days with an airstrike. It sounds great on paper. But what about retaliation Terrorist attacks? This airstrike will drum up millions in support of attacking the US. These are important questions.

kramers_hair: Under most interpretations Shariah law does NOT apply to non-Muslims.

Not a big fan of the dhimmi tax

/well maybe if they got rid of the estate tax

czarangelus: UnkleKrakker: Gee, I guess they could just throw them really, really hard. Planes, missiles, same thing to PAC3

Your blind faith in military technology disturbs me.

When Iraq shot SCUDs at Israel, they did more damage after being destroyed than they would have if they had hit. See, the cloud of superheat, super-speed shrapnel did more damage than the missile itself would have. Fun fact.

Here's a fun fact, you have no clue what you're talking about. PAC3 is about 65 builds beyond Gulf War 1^tm PATRIOT. It's designed to vaporize a missile (proximity kill) rather than simply go through it (kinetic kill) so big chunks don't fall down.
Also, of the more than 80 launched during Gulf War 1^tm, less than 10 made it anywhere near populations. The one that fell on the guard unit having dinner was the result of a miss by 2/7 ADA.

Clandestine digital operative
I shouldn't reward you solely because you did that "!!1" or "!!eleven" or some variation thereof, but here:

Cerebral Ballsy: But what about retaliation Terrorist attacks?

We make more bombs and bullets?

/as a guy who makes bombs and bullets, I'm okay with that

czarangelus: JDAT: /Imperial America? sounds good.

Don't worry. Those loyal to the Republic have a plan for the Tories.


No they don't, not a feasable one anyways.

By the way, my questions aren't meant to imply that I am in favor of Iran's nuclear program; I'm not. All I'm saying is we should always question our government.

This isn't originally mine, but hey - more fuel for the fire!!!

Sir Charles

Germany and Japan and the Phillipines all worked out pretty well...

Only because the US feared the spread of Communism. If the US treated these countries the way they are treating the Middle East now the people would have, with Soviet assistance, revolted and become Communist.

The US is now free of that threat, so they think that they can get away with whatever they want.

(This is a complicated issue and this is only one facet of it, but an important one nonetheless).

Sir Charles: pwhp_67: I'm not sure that Nation Building or policing other countries is one of our talents...

Germany and Japan and the Philippines all worked out pretty well...

I've been to Japan and the Philippines. I would agree that Japan and Germany rebounded nicely. The Philippines, not so much.

Random Reality Check: ... said the guy with no moral clarity, no ability to discern right from wrong, no claim to remorse or intelligence in the history of humanity - but bolstered by an opinion as big as the moon and about as likely to hold air.

Way to follow up an appeal to emotion with an ad hominem attack. Are you capable of expressing a thought that isn't a logical fallacy?

simplethinking: And I'm a pacifist too.



I believe the term is "pussyfest".

One other fun consequence of this plan is that it generates sympathy for Iran with the rest of the world.

"Damn, look at that...maybe they DO need nuclear weapons to protect themselves."

Got to go to class. Sorry.

UnkleKrakker: It's designed to vaporize a missile (proximity kill) rather than simply go through it (kinetic kill) so big chunks don't fall down.

I'll bet it's around half as successful as Star Wars, too.

JDAT: No they don't, not a feasable one anyways.

You will certainly not fail to reap what you have sown.

kramers_hair: Under most interpretations Shariah law does NOT apply to non-Muslims.

Tell that to the guy I saw beheaded in Riyadh.
/Chop Chop Square
//wasn't a muslim

Lord_Baltimore: JDAT: Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"
Wow, that's a hard way to go. I wonder where N.O.W. is on this? They seem to be really silent when it comes to atrocities in the middle east.
Their "progressive" values end at America's borders.
================================================================
So they only protest in a country that they know will tolerate them. Bunch of p***ies. Well, they are....sort of.

God forbid the West allow Iran to move in to the mainstream on its own.

kramers_hair: wowzer97pooh
You want Shariah law in the US...

Strawman. Under most interpretations Shariah law does NOT apply to non-Muslims.

/Not Muslim.
//Know a lot about Islam.
///Grad student.
////Kill me.

My phrase "shariah law" means the implementation of fundamentalist Christian beliefs into the law of the land.

Thus, abortion will become murdering babies when the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade. The death penalty will be instituded for abortion. Creationism--oops, I mean, intelligent design--will be taught as science. So many more things that fundies believe will be integrated into the law of the land.

And all because people like Lord Baltimore know whats best for savages like me and innocents in Iran who are about to be bombed.

Lord Baltimore and his kind have no place to complain about Iranian fundamentalist savagery. They practice something similar in this country everyday. And they're getting better at it.

@CharlieFreak "If the only targets of opportunity are civilians and it makes the enemy (or their enemies) react in a way that benefits me, then it's a no-brainer."

Understand, they are not soft targets, but you cannot even get to civilians in israel without passing 30 checkpoints and 10 patrols. They hit the civilians because they are soft and it gets them a lot of headlines, not due to they being the only targets.

It's like chess: your queen is in checkmate - but instead of succumbing, you destroy the chess board.


@KramersHair "... who don't have rights equal to those of the Israelis who live there."

Relly? The law of the land and practices in place would say otherwise. Did you happen to read that somewhere?

@lexslamman "Also don't forget that Israel treats its Muslim population largely as second-class citizens due to its irrational fears over terrorism."

Ahh yes, because Israel has never felt the caress of terrorism, how irrational...

I just have to ask, do you even read this stuff before you parrot it back? Anyway, the Palestinians were an issue in the area before Israel was founded, I know it doesn't fit in with your evil joo history books but it is in fact, true. Secondly everyone in Israel is under the same scrutiny, they are just as scared of the Orthodox Psycho Joo as they are the Radical Islamic Muslim, and on both counts, with good reason.

"I am an Arabist and have extensively studied the Middle East, including conflicting sources by both Jews and Muslims, the literature of fundamentalists on both sides, government documents from the UN, US, Israel, and NATO countries, and scholarly articles and writings by internationally respected experts."

I read a book by Robert D. Kaplan about Arabists, and I wouldn't say such a thing about myself and feel good about it. I know may people how have extensively studied anatomy, and still couldn't find their ass with both hands, so such a statement doesn't win me over or add any value to the obvious nonsense you are repeating.

Sir Charles: DROxINxTHExWIND: Just like we all support Bush, right?

Many of them want us dead regardless who is in office.

I'd rather do something about it instead of defending their tactics and culture, as many do all day long here and elsewhere.
=================================================

Many of them want us dead because they assume what WE are thinking based on the actions of our "leaders", just as you have done here. So, which one is it? Are all people responsible for the actions of those who lead them or are they individuals who you are misrepresenting as America haters? You can't have it both ways.

I would agree that Japan and Germany rebounded nicely. The Philippines, not so much.

Yeah, that is mostly because Japan was a rich country *before* the WWII. They already had the civil and legal structures to support large scale manufacturing and industry (remember, the Japanese kicked the crap of out the Chinese and the Russians well before WWII).

The US takes too much credit for Japan.

Sir Charles: Germany and Japan and the Phillipines all worked out pretty well...

I didn't say that the Democrats were bad at it...

Since when does the USA start a war of aggression???

Oh, wait.. Bushies. Yeah. I'm heading to my fallout shelter.

This cannot be a good thing.

/sucks to be on the left coast. gets the news last.

kramers_hair: Sir Charles

Germany and Japan and the Phillipines all worked out pretty well...

Only because the US feared the spread of Communism. If the US treated these countries the way they are treating the Middle East now the people would have, with Soviet assistance, revolted and become Communist.

The US is now free of that threat, so they think that they can get away with whatever they want.

(This is a complicated issue and this is only one facet of it, but an important one nonetheless).

Who do you think supplied Egypt, Iraq, Syria, etc? It was the Soviets and none of those looks very Communist, in the same repect that Iran back then didn't look very Democratic. It's not like the ME just dropped in from outer space.

Apoe

@KramersHair "... who don't have rights equal to those of the Israelis who live there."

Relly? The law of the land and practices in place would say otherwise. Did you happen to read that somewhere?

The simplest example is Israel's marriage law (google it). Different laws for different folks. There are other examples, that is the most well documented.

Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

But do we bomb Iran BEFORE or AFTER we hit the Sudan, and all the other countries in the world where atrocities are committed?

After all, the argument is that we should be trying to stop that kind of thing.

What? A war-thread without Malum2K7 and his four pictures? w00t!

/Goes to get popcorn and beer

Cerebral Ballsy: People like Tatsume construct elaborate denial and rationalities for war that help them make war fit into their definition of right and wrong according to their religion.

He'll support IDF but says he doesn't support bombing civilians. However, Israel bombs civilians almost every time it drops a bomb. Then his definition of "civilian" changes and innocents deaths are brushed aside and forgotten.

The same thing happens with people who vigorously defend the US military and its operations.. they will deny the deaths of innocents until they go crazy from it.

The question are there and they deserve not to be swept under the rug: How will our military action affect the civilian population? Is it worth it? What is the benefit of our military action? Will it solve our problem?

Lately we've applied the same style of fighting that we've always used with very limited results: is it worth it for us to attack another country? We should consider all of these questions before we attack, and by "we" I mean, us, the civilians of the US.

They say they will only attack in three days with an airstrike. It sounds great on paper. But what about retaliation Terrorist attacks? This airstrike will drum up millions in support of attacking the US. These are important questions.

That's a verbose way of saying "he's a douche."

/Kept me from having to say it.

wowzer97pooh: Tatsuma:

Did you read up on those US depleted uranium rounds in Iraq?

See you don't even have to worry about Iran using nuclear weapons on the US. We doing it to our own troops. Our veterans are going to be bringing home radiation illnesses from our own ammunition.

Whatever dickhead in the US military okayed using uranium on ammunition should be tried for war crimes.

You're a fu
DU is toxic, yes. It poses the same health hazards in particulate form as lead or tungsten or any other heavy metal. Guess what the alternative penetrator metal is instead of DU? If you said "tungsten", you aren't quite as dumb as you come across.

In short, try to stop being so stupid.

ElectricMonk: Conspiracy theory rock / funny cartoon skit from Saturday Night Live
Link

Bill Moyers Talks With Jon Stewart of the Daily Show
Link

Those last four lines don't rhyme..

czarangelus: UnkleKrakker: It's designed to vaporize a missile (proximity kill) rather than simply go through it (kinetic kill) so big chunks don't fall down.

I'll bet it's around half as successful as Star Wars, too.

And what great wealth of knowledge do you base that statement on? It's actually running at about a 98% success ratio, where as "Star Wars" is running at about 92%, unless you're talking about wookies and darth vader, I know you don't get out of the basement much.

DROxINxTHExWIND: Many of them want us dead because they assume what WE are thinking based on the actions of our "leaders", just as you have done here. So, which one is it? Are all people responsible for the actions of those who lead them or are they individuals who you are misrepresenting as America haters?

They want me dead.

Because of that, I want them dead.

Not complicated.

Now, you can say that because you don't support Bush, they wouldn't mind you. You'd be wrong. They'd want you every bit as dead if Gore or Kerry won the elections.

Should civilians be accountable for their leaders? Hard to say. But that is an esoteric conversation in this matter. It's a moo point.

in the same repect that Iran back then didn't look very Democratic. It's not like the ME just dropped in from outer space.

Actually Iran was quite democratic prior to US involvement.

kramers_hair: in the same repect that Iran back then didn't look very Democratic. It's not like the ME just dropped in from outer space.

Actually Iran was quite democratic prior to US involvement.

That was my point

Guysmiley: f you said "tungsten", you aren't quite as dumb as you come across.

Last time I checked, tungsten isn't an alpha emitter. Heavy metal poisoning is bad, I agree... but radiation poisoning is worse.

Iran provides financial, organizational, and military support to the mass-murdering terrorist group Hamas in Palestine.

Iran provides financial, organizational, and military support to the terrorist group Hizballah in Lebanon.

Iran supports the despicable Syrian regime that continually interferes in Lebanese politics and recently assassinated their prime minister, Rafik Hariri.

Iran took 50 Americans hostage in 1979 and held them for 444 days.

Iran has repeatedly threatened to wipe the state of Israel off the map and is rapidly developing a nuclear program of remarkable size and scope.

Iran has recently shelled Kurdish areas in northern Iraq from across the border, and is accused of providing financial, organizational, and military support to various factions in Iraq specifically in order to undermine that nation's stability and force the US to "lose" the reconstruction of Iraq.

Fellow farkers, I humbly ask you:

How many more things does a country have to do before you finally say, "Hey, maybe we actually *should* put a stop to this" ...?

Sir Charles: They want me dead.


Only because they have read your comments here...

czarangelus:
JDAT: No they don't, not a feasable one anyways.
You will certainly not fail to reap what you have sown.
==================================================================

That's it? I give you a prime opportunity to lay out your plans for overthrowing the US government for all of us here on Fark to see/laugh at and you just give the reap what you sow response. You dissapoint me Czar.

Sir Charles:
They want me dead.

Because of that, I want them dead.

Not complicated.

Wait, you want dead just the ones that want you dead, or the all the ones from the country that has the ones that want you dead?