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(The Raw Story)   Old and busted: Shock and Awe, leading to a drawn-out occupation. New hotness: Three days of absolute destruction, then get the hell out   (rawstory.com ) divider line
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31738 clicks; posted to Main » on 04 Sep 2007 at 10:26 AM (9 years ago)   |   Favorite    |   share:  Share on Twitter share via Email Share on Facebook   more»



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2007-09-04 12:39:06 PM  
Cerebral Ballsy: We could see the enemy, we weren't trained adequately, we weren't funded adequately.

... we were not allowed to bomb many different areas because the politicians in washington said so?

That didn't help
 
2007-09-04 12:39:09 PM  
Oh holy hell . . . I saw the headline and thought it was referring to Iraq.
 
2007-09-04 12:39:10 PM  
pixistick: No offense, but couldn't that be read as?...

Nope, they attacked the towns full of civilians just like they did in the war. No military positions in those towns and villages.

pwhp_67: 'm not sure why you support the Bush jihad on Iraq

I don't. Saddam still didn't comply, but it wasn't a reason to invade IMHO.
 
2007-09-04 12:39:23 PM  
Do you think that a country, or group, or whatever, getting their asses pounded by a much stronger force - for whatever reason - gives more than two shiats about the Geneva Convention?
 
2007-09-04 12:39:32 PM  
Lord Baltimore gets paid for his crap postings?

Two questions.

1. Where can I get a job like this?

2. What union does he belong to?
 
2007-09-04 12:39:38 PM  
stealthboy: bride_of_adam_cole
Me, too. Firefox doesn't like Fark anymore. I have a feeling it has something to do with the rather large, obnoxious flash ads. Time to turn adblock on again. *sigh*.


Try Opera, I've got about 24 windows open and an additional 11 in Firefox (not including fark) plus an ODBC link to a mainframe going and it's all good. Works at home like that too.
 
2007-09-04 12:39:43 PM  
Tatsuma

We're arguing about who started the conflict and where it happened. The previous war is irrevelant in that case.

Fine. That's an easy one. Israel started the conflict by establishing itself 59 years ago, dragging Lebanese Shia into the fight by sending loads of Palestinian Sunni refugees into Shia lands, occupying the area that the Shia in southern Lebanon relied on for water supplies, and generally antagonizing every other state in the region, and more recently provoked the battle in question by sending patrols over the border, where they were kidnapped by Hizbo'llah elements.
 
2007-09-04 12:39:47 PM  
Sir Charles: Well, we could debate each other in a civilized fashion. Or not.

There was never peace during either of those "Pax" periods. It was just the populations of Rome and London sitting pretty while they committed genocide against tribes a thousand miles away.
 
2007-09-04 12:40:11 PM  
Allright, this is about as constructive as drilling holes in my head with a power-drill.

which I'd rather be doing instead of re-designing this #%*%#&$ webpage

/lunchy-munchy
 
2007-09-04 12:40:17 PM  
From TFA: "~-United States has the capacity for and may be prepared to launch without warning a massive assault on Iranian uranium enrichment facilities, as well as government buildings and infrastructure-~"

That whole "Day That Will Live in Infamy" thing is in the eye of the beholder.
 
2007-09-04 12:40:24 PM  
@AdamK "There's already plenty of shiat blowing up on liveleak, it's from Iraq so you don't even have to wait"

Nah that's all little surgical stuff, I wana see some FAE's and 2k's going off.

@czarangelus "They weren't fired at civilians. Did you even read what you wrote? They were fired at military outposts "near the town of"

I don't know what is worse that you would, with any attempt of reason try to claim that Hezbollah doesn't deliberately target civilians, despite the evidence and their own statements to the contrary or that somehow, in some twisted mind a military group, not representing the government of the nation they based in that attacks a sovereign nation that is a neighbor is somehow not a terrorist entity...

I swear, did they cut on you or shock you some to make you this conditioning stick?
 
2007-09-04 12:40:38 PM  
absoluteparanoia: Sir Charles: Please point out which section of the Geneva convention allows for suicide bombing with non-combatant targets.

The fourth convention protects civilians being occupied by enemy forces.

When Israel didn't abide by the fourth convention, civilians are not held liable for actions of non-combatant aggression.

The language was specifically "The party to the conflict in whose hands protected persons may be is responsible for the treatment accorded to them by its agents."

Israel is the responsibility party for protecting Palestinians. Instead, they use discriminatory "law of return" immigration policies, and push refugees into neighboring countries.

While it doesn't explicitly condone the actions of suicide bombers, it does not mean they violate the convention. It means that Israel has, and that a response has been made.

Now where is my cookie.


Still in the jar, even if Israel violates the Conventions, targgeting civilians is still not justified by Geneva. It simply means that Israel would have to answer for it.
 
2007-09-04 12:40:41 PM  
Tatsuma: Cerebral Ballsy: For the rest of you, the "children" volunteered themselves out of religious fervor. They weren't forced.

Yeah, right: From a 1984 article:


Hey, I'm only quoting your source.
 
2007-09-04 12:40:48 PM  
lexslamman: Tatsuma

We're arguing about who started the conflict and where it happened. The previous war is irrevelant in that case.

Fine. That's an easy one. Israel started the conflict by establishing itself 59 years ago, dragging Lebanese Shia into the fight by sending loads of Palestinian Sunni refugees into Shia lands, occupying the area that the Shia in southern Lebanon relied on for water supplies, and generally antagonizing every other state in the region, and more recently provoked the battle in question by sending patrols over the border, where they were kidnapped by Hizbo'llah elements.


but it was the poor persecuted Jews....
 
2007-09-04 12:41:57 PM  
Tatsuma: JDAT: /push the button!!!!!

Teapacks?

Anyway, the Sticker Song is much better.

Funniest thing I've seen today!

much thanks.

 
2007-09-04 12:42:15 PM  
Cerebral Ballsy: Tatsuma: Cerebral Ballsy: For the rest of you, the "children" volunteered themselves out of religious fervor. They weren't forced.

Yeah, right: From a 1984 article:


Hey, I'm only quoting your source.


I know you arent trying to imply the all knowing Jew would cherry pick 25 year old news articles...
 
2007-09-04 12:42:16 PM  
Hobodeluxe: Woo hoo! I'm just glad my son is too old to be drafted.

Your son is over 40? Because if the Army will take people up to the age of 40, I bet the draft will too.
 
2007-09-04 12:42:22 PM  
Lord_Baltimore: Tehran's minorities are currently more brutally oppressed than you care to understand.

I'm well aware of Iran's deplorable human rights record. And I was aware of it long before bringing it up became a talking point in favor of bombing Iran's nuclear facilities as if they were somehow related.

Should we be meddling in their domestic affairs to begin with? From your previous statements I've determined that the answer to the first question is YES and the second NO.

How will bombing Iran's nuclear facilities end its oppression of minorities?

You're so bad at this it's not even funny. I could be ten times the propagandist you are. Whoever is paying you is getting ripped off, Tommy.

You might make stronger arguments if you put down the latest Left Behind novel and picked up a decent journal or history book.
 
2007-09-04 12:42:46 PM  
i18.photobucket.com

possibility
 
2007-09-04 12:42:51 PM  
UnkleKrakker

I assume you are referring to the Balfour declaration which occurred contemporary to the post-WWI treaties which established the Middle East states as we know them.

The Balfour declaration unofficially declared British support for a Jewish state - it was never ratified by British Parliament, nor did it have the support of the Crown.

Transjordan/Palestine was established in 1919.

Israel was established in 1948.
 
2007-09-04 12:43:26 PM  
Sir Charles: Allright, this is about as constructive as drilling holes in my head with a power-drill.

which I'd rather be doing instead of re-designing this #%*%#&$ webpage

/lunchy-munchy


Hear hear.

Cerebral Ballsy: Hey, I'm only quoting your source.

And I'm quoting the same source which states that the children who were supposed to be guarding towns were sent rolling over mines.

I'm really done here, now.
 
2007-09-04 12:43:31 PM  
absoluteparanoia: Just because it will never work as a political strategy...

It doesn't have to be a tin-foil hat theory... just perceived as one.


I dunno. If you view Bush's foreign policy decisions in the context of trying to bring about Armageddon, they make a hell of a lot more sense than just about any other context. I'd like to believe that nobody could possibly be that stupid but that would just be naive.
 
2007-09-04 12:43:43 PM  
Ron Bennington: Cerebral Ballsy: Tatsuma: Cerebral Ballsy: For the rest of you, the "children" volunteered themselves out of religious fervor. They weren't forced.

Yeah, right: From a 1984 article:


Hey, I'm only quoting your source.

I know you arent trying to imply the all knowing Jew would cherry pick 25 year old news articles...


Actually I'm not, I'm only referring to the CNN video he linked.
 
2007-09-04 12:44:09 PM  
All this thread makes me want to do is go home and get my Mercenaries:Playground of Destruction on. Because I like to blow things up and when I get bored with missions I just randomly call in airstrikes on just about everything. What's really fun is getting every single faction mad at you because you dropped a bunker-buster on all their HQs. Good times.

/but yeah, nuking the crap out of the mideast is not going to go as well as you think it will. Unless you like the thought of radioactive Ayatollahs running rampant. Not a pretty picture.
 
2007-09-04 12:44:12 PM  
lexslamman: Israel started the conflict by establishing itself 59 years ago...


Oooh, this is going to end well...

/makes popcorn
 
2007-09-04 12:44:21 PM  
Tatsuma: Sir Charles: Allright, this is about as constructive as drilling holes in my head with a power-drill.

which I'd rather be doing instead of re-designing this #%*%#&$ webpage

/lunchy-munchy

Hear hear.

Cerebral Ballsy: Hey, I'm only quoting your source.

And I'm quoting the same source which states that the children who were supposed to be guarding towns were sent rolling over mines.

I'm really done here, now.


2 hour ass kickin hurt did it?
 
2007-09-04 12:44:40 PM  
xalres: trying to bring about Armageddon, they make a hell of a lot more sense than just about any other context. I'd like to believe that nobody could possibly be that stupid but that would just be naive.

I heard Bush is waiting for the second coming of the Twelfth Imam.
 
2007-09-04 12:45:41 PM  
Tassach: air strike != war

W...T...F...

You know, just when I've read the most stupid thing on the internet, something like this comes across.

This country has gone completely insane. How the hell did you poser Christians ever become so damned bloodthirsty?

IRAN HAS NOT ATTACKED US!!! Where is the morality? What ever happened to the golden rule?
 
2007-09-04 12:45:58 PM  
Ron Bennington: lexslamman: Tatsuma

We're arguing about who started the conflict and where it happened. The previous war is irrevelant in that case.

Fine. That's an easy one. Israel started the conflict by establishing itself 59 years ago, dragging Lebanese Shia into the fight by sending loads of Palestinian Sunni refugees into Shia lands, occupying the area that the Shia in southern Lebanon relied on for water supplies, and generally antagonizing every other state in the region, and more recently provoked the battle in question by sending patrols over the border, where they were kidnapped by Hizbo'llah elements.

but it was the poor persecuted Jews....


I live in Kentucky by way of the New York City area - I am familiar with history from the Exodus to the Holocaust and beyond - but in my lifetime, I haven't seen many Jews who are either poor or persecuted. I'm all for charity, kindness, and helping our allies, but Israel has gotten way too much preferential treatment, and it is part of the reason for the mistrust and emnity between the Ummah and the US.
 
2007-09-04 12:46:02 PM  
Can't we just let Global Warming take care of things. From what I've read it will turn their mostly arid climate even more arid. Food and water will become more scarce. Let all the inevitable infighting take care of our problems.
 
2007-09-04 12:46:16 PM  
czarangelus: They dropped more ordinance on Vietnam than was used in WWII in its entirety, and the Commies still won

Apples and oranges.

Bombing is an effective way to destroy a country's industrial base, thereby eliminating their ability to build high-tech weapons (tanks, airplanes, nukes, etc).

Vietnam had no industrial base to speak of -- virtually all of their weapons and supplies were brought in over land from China. Because we were unwilling to bomb arms plants in China, our only alternative was to attempt to interdict the arms shipments. Air power is not an effective means of interdicting a massively decentralized overland supply line.

If our goal in Iran is to cripple their nuclear weapons program, I do believe that can be done with air power alone. Likewise we can virtually eliminate their ability to project conventional military force beyond their borders. Their only possible response is asymmetric warfare, which is not spectacularly effective against an enemy on another continent. If we shared a land border with Iran that might be a significant threat, but we don't and it isn't.
 
2007-09-04 12:46:27 PM  
Cerebral Ballsy: poopflingster: If we do hit Iran, we should hit Israel next, since they are responsible for the entire mess that is the middle east.

I doubt it. The middle east was a mess before Irael existed and even before the US existed.


Well, no, not really. For centuries before the First World War the Middle East was quite peaceful, internally, and ruled as a whole first from Baghdad then from Constantinople. The mess in the Middle East starts with the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after WWI.
 
2007-09-04 12:47:19 PM  
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

Yup, their laws and customs are farked up. Not a reason we should invade them, though. Heck, George Bush executed retarded people and we let him be President.
 
2007-09-04 12:47:20 PM  
lexslamman: UnkleKrakker

I assume you are referring to the Balfour declaration which occurred contemporary to the post-WWI treaties which established the Middle East states as we know them.

The Balfour declaration unofficially declared British support for a Jewish state - it was never ratified by British Parliament, nor did it have the support of the Crown.

Transjordan/Palestine was established in 1919.

Israel was established in 1948.


No, I would be referring to the U.N. Partition (new window). This would have been once the British had ceded control, there was no country called Palestine or Israel at the time. It is stil the same, using that legal argument for one's existence without using the other as well is kind of a dishonest argument.
 
2007-09-04 12:47:31 PM  
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

HOW WILL BOMBING IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES STOP THAT?
 
2007-09-04 12:47:37 PM  
Tassach: If our goal in Iran is to cripple their nuclear weapons program, I do believe that can be done with air power alone. Likewise we can virtually eliminate their ability to project conventional military force beyond their borders.

And when they start bombing Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, then what? Or have you thought that far ahead?
 
2007-09-04 12:47:43 PM  
lexslamman: Ron Bennington: lexslamman: Tatsuma

We're arguing about who started the conflict and where it happened. The previous war is irrevelant in that case.

Fine. That's an easy one. Israel started the conflict by establishing itself 59 years ago, dragging Lebanese Shia into the fight by sending loads of Palestinian Sunni refugees into Shia lands, occupying the area that the Shia in southern Lebanon relied on for water supplies, and generally antagonizing every other state in the region, and more recently provoked the battle in question by sending patrols over the border, where they were kidnapped by Hizbo'llah elements.

but it was the poor persecuted Jews....

I live in Kentucky by way of the New York City area - I am familiar with history from the Exodus to the Holocaust and beyond - but in my lifetime, I haven't seen many Jews who are either poor or persecuted. I'm all for charity, kindness, and helping our allies, but Israel has gotten way too much preferential treatment, and it is part of the reason for the mistrust and emnity between the Ummah and the US.


Dude half my family is from Haifa and still lives there and even THEY realize they started all this.
 
2007-09-04 12:47:51 PM  
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

In a few years, after the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade, you can retitle those pictures:

"American Woman stoned to death for Murdering Baby Via Abortion"

And you'll be so happy.
 
KIA
2007-09-04 12:48:03 PM  
This is actually a brilliant piece of political manuvering. Consider:

1) Floating the plan by a "leak" is plausibly deniable.
2) Floating the plan might gather support for it from certain areas of society where support might not have been suspected (Fark?).
3) By floating the plan, if a smaller strike were used, it would seem like "restraint" by comparison.
4) By floating the plan, Iran must now think about defending 1,200 sites rather than the dozen or so which we are really interested in. It's a grand diversion (contrary to those who were screaming about traitors yesterday - this is an integral part of the plan, and the media is doing exactly what the establishment wants it to do - distract the enemy).
5) Floating a plan of massive destruction provides Iran one last chance to reconsider, turns up the heat, and might lead to productive discussions. Might not, but, hey, it's not like we didn't try.

See? Brilliant. Intentionally brilliant? Who knows.
 
2007-09-04 12:49:52 PM  
KIA: This is actually a brilliant piece of political manuvering. Consider:

1) Floating the plan by a "leak" is plausibly deniable.
2) Floating the plan might gather support for it from certain areas of society where support might not have been suspected (Fark?).
3) By floating the plan, if a smaller strike were used, it would seem like "restraint" by comparison.
4) By floating the plan, Iran must now think about defending 1,200 sites rather than the dozen or so which we are really interested in. It's a grand diversion (contrary to those who were screaming about traitors yesterday - this is an integral part of the plan, and the media is doing exactly what the establishment wants it to do - distract the enemy).
5) Floating a plan of massive destruction provides Iran one last chance to reconsider, turns up the heat, and might lead to productive discussions. Might not, but, hey, it's not like we didn't try.

See? Brilliant. Intentionally brilliant? Who knows.


I refuse to believe our government did ANYTHING "intentionally brilliant"
 
2007-09-04 12:50:37 PM  
but in my lifetime, I haven't seen many Jews who are either poor or persecuted. I'm all for charity, kindness, and helping our allies, but Israel has gotten way too much preferential treatment, and it is part of the reason for the mistrust and emnity between the Ummah and the US.

So what you've seen in your lifetime makes up for thousands of years of persecution?

Just sayin. I do, however, feel that the state of Israel, as in its government, does not always do the right thing, and in some cases, as we speak, is breaking international law, which I would like to see them sanctioned for.

As far as a war with Iran, if they want it, let them have it. If Bush gets us unvolved its just another reason why he should be hung for treason.
 
2007-09-04 12:51:34 PM  
All I know is that this shiat better not preempt farking Heroes when it comes back on in a few weeks. Schedule the bombings according to Nielsen ratings.
/sarcasm
 
2007-09-04 12:51:38 PM  
Lord_Baltimore

Every time you insult Jon Snow, throw my name in there too.
 
2007-09-04 12:51:52 PM  
UnkleKrakker

The ironic thing is that before Israelis insisted on seceding from Palestinians (for mostly racist reasons, even though most Americans could not distinguish between Israelis and Palestinians if they were dressed the same standing next to each other) and kicking Muslims off their family and historical lands, they coexisted mostly peacefully. A quick look at the history of the Ottoman Empire shows that Jews were treated with dignity and respect (for a modest price (tax/levy), of course) by the Sultans. Muslims had no problems with the Jews until the Jews started to hate all-over the Muslims. It is interesting that the antisemitism we see in the Middle East is largely a European import.
 
2007-09-04 12:52:22 PM  
Jon Snow 2007-09-04 11:57:06 AM


So now you're reduced to calling out Total Fark members who aren't EVEN IN the thread. Tsk, tsk...

Dude, that's weak. Almost as weak as the guy yesterday who made up quotes from me when I wasn't even in that thread either! Weaker still, people responded to them!

LOL... I guess this is what celebrity status is like.


The official Jon Snow photo: i12.tinypic.com
 
2007-09-04 12:52:28 PM  
Dar Williams "Empire"

Who's afraid of the sun?
Who'd question the goodness of the mighty?
We who banish the threat,
When your little ones all go nighty-nighty.

Well, there's no time for doubt right now
and less time to explain.
So get back on your horses,
kiss my ring, join our next campaign.

And the empire grows with the news that we're winning.
With more fear to conquer
and more gold thread for spinning.
Bright as the sun, shining on everyone.

Some would say that we forced our words
and we find that ingenuously churlish.
Words are just words.
Don't be so pessimistic, weak and girlish.

We like strong, happy people
who don't think there's something wrong with pride,
Work makes them free
and we spread that freedom far and wide.

And the empire grows,
the seeds of its glory,
For every five tanks,
plant a sentimental story,
till they worship the sun,
even Christ-loving ones.

And we'll kill the terror who rises
and a million of their races.
But when our people torture you
that's a few random cases.

Don't question the sun
It doesn't help anyone.

But the journalist cried out
when it was too late to stop us.
Everyone had awakened
to the dream they could enter our colossus.

And now I'm right,
here you said I'm right,
there's nothing that can harm me.
Cause the sun never sets
on my dungeons or my army.

And the empire fell
on it's own splintered axis.
And the emperor wanes
as the silver moon waxes.

And the farmers will find our coins
In their strawberry fields
while somebody somewhere
twists his ring as someone kneels.

Oh where is the sun, shining for everyone.
Oh where is the sun, shining for everyone.

Conspiracy theory rock / funny cartoon skit from Saturday Night Live
Link

Bill Moyers Talks With Jon Stewart of the Daily Show
Link
 
2007-09-04 12:53:22 PM  
czarangelus: Tassach: If our goal in Iran is to cripple their nuclear weapons program, I do believe that can be done with air power alone. Likewise we can virtually eliminate their ability to project conventional military force beyond their borders.

And when they start bombing Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Iraq, then what? Or have you thought that far ahead?


There are enough US ADA units with expanded capabilities along the Persian Gulf to take out most of the Russian Air force let alone Iran's
 
2007-09-04 12:53:36 PM  
Lord_Baltimore: Iranian woman stoned to death for "Acts Incompatible With Islam"

Conservatives here outlaw "vices" too. Thank Gawd they can't stone violators to death (yet).
 
2007-09-04 12:53:36 PM  
Look. Iran sucks big time, especially for women. But spot-bombing Iran will definitely bring backlash in the form of more terrorism.

Iran sending young men to explode bombs is sick, but so is putting bombs in the ground in the first place. These "rules" that we construct surrounding war practices will come back to bite us in the ass if we're not expecting the enemy to fight "dirty" because they do and they will.

Remember the British thought we fought like animals for our independence. We hid behind rocks and trees instead of standing in straight lines and fighting like men.

We have look at terrorism in the same way. It's a new style of fighting. And it's true, the general population usually does support the terrorists in places like Palestine. But has Israel's military strategy solved their problem? Nope. Has our military strategy solved our problem? No. We're not any more safe than we were before. (Which, realistically speking is not

I don't know the answer here, but it's not working as is. Carthaginian peace? I don't know.
 
2007-09-04 12:53:49 PM  
For Example

Lord_Baltimore: Click here to see Jon Snow's and Party Boy's favorite form of government in action. (new window)

Not that i agree with the sentiment or your BS red herrings, but that I disagree with your tactics wholeheartedly and want to show my disfavor to you.
 
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