MilitaryTigger: To put this in perspective, If a Military General ORDERED his 3 female admin workers to attend a Tailhook convention with him, and they thereafter were very upset about what they had to witness there...

Would you be siding with the General or the female troops?

Being placed in a situation that makes you uncomfortable (sexually) is wrong. Be it straight, gay, female or male, being ORDERED against your wishes into such a situation is wrong.

Should they get to sue the city? No.

Should the superior who abused her position be punished? Yes.

We're talking about San Diego. People like the chief don't get punished. The mayor and his cronies have the ethics of a bunch of bank robbing child molesters.

Vandelay Nice work my friend. I wish it was that easy in real life. "Hmmm honey I think I am going to photoshop you into a redhead tonight"

/sigh

If this were the other way around and it was a hetero fire chief making four gay firemen go to a tittie bar, there would be outrage. The City of San Diego would most likely immediately fire the chief (or at the very least suspend her) so as not to look insensitive to the feelings of homosexuals. The press would have a field day painting the fire chief as a hate monger and a homo-phobe.

Since it's the other way around, everyone's afraid to go anywhere near the subject. That's not what I call equal treatment. It is what I'd call a serious lack of spine. Do for these men what would be done for them if the tables were turned.

CtrlAltDelete: ComicBookGuy: Um, yeah? Your point is??

My point is there would be no lawsuit if a particularly unattractive woman flashed her breasts at these guys. They'd cringe a bit through a smile and say "no thanks." Because it's a dude it becomes "I f*cking hate you; moreover I'm suing my boss who is one of you people for making me be here."

You.....are an idiot. The POINT is, they were forced to do it against their will. They may actually want to see boobs at mardi gras. By being forced to ride in a gay parade they were forced into openly supporting gays, a lifestyle they actually may not condone. If it actually took force to make them ride in a mardi gras parade and see boobs (attractive or not) and it offended them for religious reasons, they have a valid suit there, too. The whole thing comes down to they were forced into an entire sexual event as part of their job against their beliefs (offense) with the threat of discipline at work, not a single instance of an unattractive woman flashing them (disgust). Go reboot yourself.

scott92104
Wow. Assume much?

there were roughly 90 in their group

Four have filed suit.

I specifically remember all of them in the truck waving and holding gay pride flags as they went by

All 90 of them? Apparently, you missed 4.

Then all of a sudden they changed their tune and started this whole "forced to participate" crap

See page 4 of 16 of the complaint.

FAIL

scott92104: If these guys did not want to be there...there were plenty of people that could have driven that fire truck. 9 chances out of 10...they all probably ended up going to the festival afterwards and ended up being someone's toy after an all day party with crystal meth at the latino dance tent. They probably woke up with a sore back side and started whipsering "Rape!"

Ummm Scott you are not helping your cause here.

ls_slacker:
Abusing what authority? Making public servants actually appear to give a crap about the community where they serve? Horrible, that. Thinking that the firefighters in the Hillcrest area actually might treat residents like home-owning tax-paying citizens.

Would you be so supportive if a hetero police chief made his female officers go up on stage in a strip joint just to show the community how much they care? They don't *have* to undress, just be happy and engage in playful banter with the noble citizens?

This lesbian should be closed.

RANDOM CAPITALIZATION means your point is BETTER!

Supercheeks: Since it's the other way around, everyone's afraid to go anywhere near the subject. That's not what I call equal treatment. It is what I'd call a serious lack of spine. Do for these men what would be done for them if the tables were turned.

How dare you call for equal justice.

Now report to the reeducation tent for sensitivity training you bigot!

/You better hope its not the same tent where scott92104 spent his time at the festival.

Let's temporarily strip away some of the irrelevant, and mention some points that have been neglected.
I'm not particularly endorsing these views, but I'd like to hear the arguments against them.


Points that support the idea that it was proper for the fire chief to order firemen to attend a parade:

A. The fire department has a duty to supply a presence if possible, based on an implicit traditional relationship with the community. More simply, 'What's a parade without a firetruck or two?'

B. The fire department has a PR responsibility for itself, it is publicly funded, after all. Parades, public appearances with public officials, etc. are the traditional methods.

C. There is an expectation that public appearances are a part of a fireman's job. It could be argued that some fireman choose the career in some part due to the ceremonial aspects.

Only read about 1/3rd of responses, so my appologies is this has been repeated.

If I'm a fireman a hired worker of any sort, and I don't want to participate in ANY event that isn't my job, I shouldn't have to. Period.

I'm straight, but very gay-friendly. The Pride Parades in Minneapolis, Gay rodeos, even a few parties. Truth is, ya'll throw one hell of a bash, as long as I leave before feeding time (which seems to be about 11:00pm on), it's all good. But the point is, you shouldn't be forced to do anything that isn't part of your job at all.

It's this simple.

If their job is to fight fires, and they were ordered to go somewhere that is optional and there is no fire and they were repeatedly sexually harassed and they were uncomfortable, AND they choose to sue, they have a lawsuit.

What doesn't matter is what they would have done in situation X.


hillary: Federal laws exclude same-sex harassment as sexual harassment. Dumb, but that's the way the law reads. So good luck with that sexual harassment claim -- gay men taunting other men does not legally fall into the federal sexual harassment laws.

Umm, you should actually read the law. It doesn't even mention sex (as a gender).

Here's some help for you, assuming you can read.

Link (new window)

Today I learned that I can only be "oblective" when I agree with Spaz-master. And I'm a better man because of it. Thank you, man. Thank you.

atlanta_ufo: Come on down to Atlanta's pride parade. Be sure and bring the kids for their enjoyment of the floats and entertaining crowd.

You must have not been to a parade in the past few years.


/public nudity/lewdness? that's an instant arrest + fine + ban from the park
//apd and the pride committee doesn't put up with that crap anymore

Maybe some gay farkers can explain this to me. When did just being accepted as gay become not acceptable? Why is it everyone has to like it and be ok with it?

It seems that if you are not being persecuted for your personal choices that should be enough. There are even laws making it a hate crime to commit violent acts against you based on who you like to have sex with now.

My brother is gay and I have had gay friends, both male and female, I have no problem with them personally. I however simply don't enjoy the thought of 2 men having sex, just as I don't enjoy the thought of people taking dumps on each other.

For the life of me, I can't understand why when I am with a gay friend there is some overwhelming need to point out every hot guy in a movie or walking down the street and how much you wish you had him. Not so fast..You are going to reply, "but straight people talk about that all the time!" Well, sure they do, with other straight people. Is the audience not taken into consideration at all?

I can't help but see an overwhelming lack of consideration for anyone else other than themselves in this type of situation. I seriously doubt these Firefighters gave a rats ass that their chief was a lesbian, not did the panel that hired her. Why can't it be left at that? Why are you still pushing? Just as some people will never change their view enough to start attending church, it works 2 ways. People also will not just start enjoying the thought of 2 men having sex. They are not persecuting you, leave it alone.

early
Let's temporarily strip away some of the irrelevant, and mention some points that have been neglected.
I'm not particularly endorsing these views, but I'd like to hear the arguments against them.


Points that support the idea that it was proper for the fire chief to order firemen to attend a parade:

A. The fire department has a duty to supply a presence if possible, based on an implicit traditional relationship with the community. More simply, 'What's a parade without a firetruck or two?'

B. The fire department has a PR responsibility for itself, it is publicly funded, after all. Parades, public appearances with public officials, etc. are the traditional methods.

C. There is an expectation that public appearances are a part of a fireman's job. It could be argued that some fireman choose the career in some part due to the ceremonial aspects.

Calling something a parade doesn't make it a parade in a traditional sense. A parade is something you typically take kids to watch. Seems like this parade should show pride in being gay. However, it appears more like we can do what we want and you are a homophobe if you have an issue with anything we do.

xtex
atlanta_ufo: Come on down to Atlanta's pride parade. Be sure and bring the kids for their enjoyment of the floats and entertaining crowd.

You must have not been to a parade in the past few years.

/public nudity/lewdness? that's an instant arrest + fine + ban from the park
//apd and the pride committee doesn't put up with that crap anymore

Went down once with friends a while back and it was crazy. Glad to hear it has become a more traditional parade.

atlanta_ufo: Went down once with friends a while back and it was crazy. Glad to hear it has become a more traditional parade.

When was a while back? It's been very family-oriented every year I've been and volunteered since 2000. Now, pre-2000, I have no idea.

2007 Parade Pics

When is the Straight Pride parade?

Will public nudity and debauchery be permitted at that too?

Hopefully, lesbian city employees will be forced to march down the street while the straight celebrators invite them to "blow my hose" along with all the other stuff.

C'mon chief.....blow my hose baby.......I'm on fire....

Yea, really sounds fair, doesn't it.

I thought "gay" parade meant "happy" parade...?

The San Diego gay scene is a bit over the top...You combine the natural Southern California tendency to consider image to be paramount along with the fact that it's a young, transplant-heavy community and it comes off as being more insecure and "over the top" than the gay communities in places like NYC.

A lot of the older gay couples in Hillcrest shake their heads at this sort of behavior...

Anyone at the parade that saw the firefighters can tell you. There was not one person in that group that appeared to be "not having a good time". If they were forced to go...then why do all the waving and holding flags and such? As far as my comment about them being at the festival afterwards...I was just simply trying to show the humor in this ridiculous lawsuit.

Considering how large the gay community is in San Diego the firefighters should be happy that we are apart of this community and pay taxes to support their jobs. In fact we end up paying more taxes because we are not allowed the same tax breaks that all the hetero's get. (I'm sure that will start some commenting)

As far as exposing everyone to our lifestyle, by holding hands and kissing in public. I'll be happy to stop kissing and holding hands in public...just as soon as every straight person stops as well. Straights should be happy that they have the ability to do that anywhere...where we have to keep ourselves in certain neighborhoods to avoid having to deal with the straight agenda.

On a side note...Can gays and lesbians who are forced to hide their sexuality in the military be allowed to sue when they are forced to participated in straight activities? I'm sure there are lesbians out there that have had to deal with their fair share of "cat-calling". What about gay men that have to deal with all the straight girls that wanna come out and have a good time with us at gay bars? (By the way...can someone please tell them, that we really don't care for them coming to our bars...it might be fun to have "boy talk" at work...but when we are at the bar, it really isn't attractive to have your "office hag" with you.)

Samsaran: You better hope its not the same tent where scott92104 spent his time at the festival.

LOL, that's what I was thinking! Since I have a vajayjay, I'd be chased out of that tent like an uncover reporter at DEFCON.

scott92104: Considering how large the gay community is in San Diego the firefighters should be happy that we are apart of this community and pay taxes to support their jobs.

And burn down houses. Don't you mean, pay taxes to support their jobs and burn down houses?

Most of my gay friends can't stand the pride parade. Actually, most of them can't stand other gay men. They seem to be horrified of the visible stereotypes.

scott92104:
(o)(o)

my boobies. let me show you them.

scott92104-
We don't care for you and your harem tagging along with your fag hag to our bars either.

Kidding, I could care less, but hear how stupid it sounds?

This thread is totally...well, you know.

allowed to sue when they are forced to participated in straight activities?

Besides hetero-sex what is a "straight" activity?

scott92104
What Straight Activities? Thats right, there are NONE. STFU and GBTW.northguineahills:

Most of my gay friends can't stand the pride parade. Actually, most of them can't stand other gay men. They seem to be horrified of the visible stereotypes.

This how you can tell real gays from the posers.

loki see loki do: What if you were having an Easter parade, and had all Jewish Firefighters on the truck, and instead of "Happy Easter", all the parade participants started taunting the Jewish Firefighters, yelling "Jesus Killers" and "Show us your circumcized nozzles, FireHymies".

That would be something.

You owe me a new keyboard,as mine is now covered in Mr. Pibb...Good Jorb.

ToxicVodka Well here in Connecticut we do have a pair of bank robbing/home burgle/child molesting/murderers who are up for the death penalty. Surely San Diego's Administration has a better moral compass than that.

thats right...the death penalty in CT

Can't find anyone that just wants life in prison (oh and add Arson and Assault on Police Officers to their charges)

danlpoon: Besides hetero-sex what is a "straight" activity?


NASCAR

Forced to attend a gay pride parade? Misery loves company.

FTFA - "San Diego's fire chief, Tracy Jarman, is an open lesbian who called the July 21 parade a "fun event" in which "all employees are encouraged to participate."

"Encouraged" is not the same as "ordered." Unless she said something totally different to their faces - and I'm doubting she did simply because SOME fire fighters had to stay at the fire house in case a call came in - they really don't have a case.

loki see loki do: FireHymies


That is my new favorite word...

pwhp_67: danlpoon: Besides hetero-sex what is a "straight" activity?


NASCAR

Wrong
Link (new window)

strifecat: this is just like firemen in the 1960s being forced to march in a civil rights parade....

Where the firemen would be subjected to a constant barrage of lewd sexual propositions and gestures?

Yeah... JUST like that.

Cuyose:
Maybe some gay farkers can explain this to me.

Yeah. Sure. Just keep in mind I'm some dude with an opinion. Doesn't mean the people you know, or even a majority of people in the community will agree with me. That's the most important thing I can tell you right there. We aren't a collective.

When did just being accepted as gay become not acceptable? Why is it everyone has to like it and be ok with it?

I don't care what other people think. Well, except that time I introduced a person I was seeing to my parents. Though that tends to be a big deal for everyone.

It seems that if you are not being persecuted for your personal choices that should be enough. There are even laws making it a hate crime to commit violent acts against you based on who you like to have sex with now.

Lack of persecution is good. I'm undecided on hate crime legislation. Right now, a lot of people are wringing their hands and biting their nails because Islamic fascists who live thousands of miles away want to kill us ... just because we are different. When such people live across the street from you, it can be scary.

I put an arm around my then-SO as we rode the subway home from our anniversary dinner. A stranger looked at us like he was going to kill us. I hope none of you find yourselves thinking about self defence, traversing contingencies both trivial and life-or-death, while you're just trying to go out and enjoy an anniversary. It sucks, frankly.

Some teenaged thugs called one of my more flamboyant friends a fag and threw a brick at his head. Even more troubling is that the police basically said "so what?" Most of the hate we encounter is purely rhetorical. I can accept that variety, but this? Something has to be done. I don't know how to fix the problem. Likely not with legislation.

My brother is gay and I have had gay friends, both male and female, I have no problem with them personally. I however simply don't enjoy the thought of 2 men having sex, just as I don't enjoy the thought of people taking dumps on each other.

For the life of me, I can't understand why when I am with a gay friend there is some overwhelming need to point out every hot guy in a movie or walking down the street and how much you wish you had him. Not so fast..You are going to reply, "but straight people talk about that all the time!" Well, sure they do, with other straight people. Is the audience not taken into consideration at all?

Just tell the guy that you're not interested in hearing it. Some of my straight friends encourage me to talk about this stuff. Some of my straight friends have asked me to keep it on the down-low. I also have religious friends who do not want to hear about premarital sex of any variety. I don't think it's a gay/straight thing. It's personal preference. And ideally you should be able to tell your friend that.

I can't help but see an overwhelming lack of consideration for anyone else other than themselves in this type of situation. I seriously doubt these Firefighters gave a rats ass that their chief was a lesbian, not did the panel that hired her. Why can't it be left at that? Why are you still pushing? Just as some people will never change their view enough to start attending church, it works 2 ways. People also will not just start enjoying the thought of 2 men having sex. They are not persecuting you, leave it alone.

Well, I resent this notion that I'm pushing. I frankly think the Chief has her head stuck up her ass. She is an individual, and it is wrong to hold the whole community accountable for her stupidity. I also think the firefighters should have had the balls to say "no, I won't do that and I dare you to explain to the city why you fired us." They should have defied her while giving her just enough rope to hang herself with.

danlpoon: Besides hetero-sex what is a "straight" activity?

Men going to the tittie bar.
A Catholic wedding.


/Is there such a thing as a straight pride parade?

ls_slacker

sentient_being: As lame as your emotional appeal and insinuation that I'm some sort of homophobe is, abusing your authority like that should come with dire consequences.

Abusing what authority? Making public servants actually appear to give a crap about the community where they serve? Horrible, that. Thinking that the firefighters in the Hillcrest area actually might treat residents like home-owning tax-paying citizens.

/Not surprised "The Thomas More Legal Center" is involved.
//Church + State = bad combo; cf., Iran

A comparison to Iran? Suggesting a church-state conflict? Clearly, you are far too stupid to participate in this discussion. I rarely just come out and insult like that, but you sir are a moron.

MisterRPG-
Good response. I find it retarded that there are people out there that still give you bad looks when you and your SO are out in public, but can't help but think if individuals like yourself were more of the face of the homosexual community, less people would be so bigoted.

Just like the Phelps and Radical Islamic terrorists screw it up for the large majority of people that believe in certain religions, I think there are a very vocal minority/majority(not sure actually) that is doing nothing but making people that are on the verge of acceptance, step back again and resent the lifestyle even more.

People that are already cool with the lifestyle, which I wish to believe is a majority in America, you don't have to worry about. It's the religious people that you need to to convince and it's a very delicate proposition to make these people accepting.

It just seems that a vast majority of the work has been done, and stepping off the gas and coasting a bit would do more to further your cause. Let some of the late adopters catch up a little.

Prof_Moriarity: I dunno. On the one hand, it's good for the firefighters to participate in community events, even if they don't want to, for public relations.

No, it's not a very smart move for PR's sake. Businesses and organizations that make moves to help out the community where it is needed: health, education, hunger, etc. are engaged in good PR.

Smart PR is avoiding condoning or condemning political or social issues that have no real connection with them. I.e. a supermarket raising money to purchase school supplies for local needy children is a solid idea. A supermarket taking a stand on abortion is a bad idea.

It's simple - everyone in business or community-serving groups are better served remaining neutral on hot-button issues as they will almost certainly assplode in their faces no matter which way they lean. Those who don't care can support what they like, but they will only catch hell from others who are opposed to their line of thinking.

northguineahills
Most of my gay friends can't stand the pride parade. Actually, most of them can't stand other gay men. They seem to be horrified of the visible stereotypes.

I have to agree. I've been to a pride event once, and I felt incredibly out of place. It seems to be all about celebrating (and reveling in) the stereotypes. Nothing against them if that's their thing...but as for myself, while I'm not ashamed of my orientation, I've never felt the need to congregate and celebrate it. I do have gay friends I associate with; we do have common issues and can find solace in not facing them in society alone. However, verbally gang-raping a bunch of fireman isn't going to do anything for our cause. Those events are often counter-productive, IMHO.

If the female police officer was recently able to successfully sue for getting porn in her inbox at work, then why shouldn't these men be able to get some compensation for their ordeal? BTW, the female police office wasn't ordered to receive porn in her inbox, someone was just putting it there; these men were ordered into a situation where is was reasonably expected that they would be subject to sexual harrassment.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, men's problems don't really count and sexual harrassment only happens to women.

When was the last city sponsored heterosexual pride month/parade where you live?

Tell you what. When heterosexuals are prevented from marrying the person they love, then you can have a straight pride parade. When heterosexuals are fired for nothing more than being heterosexual, then you can have a straight pride parade. When heterosexuals are kicked out of their homes by bigoted parents just because they're heterosexual, then you can have a straight pride parade. When heterosexuals are denied hospital visitation to their partners just because they're heterosexual, then you can have a straight pride parade. When heterosexuals are beaten up and killed for simply being heterosexual, then you can have a straight pride parade.

When all that happens, then you get your farking parade. Until then, shut the fark up, because every day is straight pride day.

early:
A. The fire department has a duty to supply a presence if possible, based on an implicit traditional relationship with the community. More simply, 'What's a parade without a firetruck or two?'

When the parade isn't exactly "family friendly." You just mentioned the one thing--"traditional"--and having guys waggle their peeners at you is hardly that.

Fire folks deal with enough b.s. in the course of their day and hardly need to be caught up in the volatile political agenda of their chief as these guys are.

The fire department has a PR responsibility for itself, it is publicly funded, after all. Parades, public appearances with public officials, etc. are the traditional methods.

Yes, but no, not in this case. Fire departments usually put a little bit of thought into it--if I were chief (no matter my orientation), I would think that a) it's a politically sensitive event, should we participate? And if we do, in what manner that puts a positive light on the department and yet considers the opinions of my crews? and b) would my people be comfortable attending/participating in such an event? c) are there alternatives that don't put my crews in a bad light/in the middle of the maelstrom? Et cetera, et cetera.

This wasn't exactly the Redlands Fire Muster, you know. However, this *is* California, and I think only in California would a municipal fire department land itself into such a hot, steaming mess.

There is an expectation that public appearances are a part of a fireman's job. It could be argued that some fireman choose the career in some part due to the ceremonial aspects.

Having been there and done that, I would tell you the ceremonial aspect has nothing to do with the career choice. When you go and get your fire tech degree, go to an academy and pass the physical tests, you hardly think "hey, I'm going to be in parades! I'm a public figure!" No. Doesn't work that way. That's not a career goal, not even in the periphery. Certainly the question never comes up with an interview panel.

~~

When it's forced attendance to a politically charged event such as this, would you just go along meekly?

//This isn't a bullcaca complaint (link was broken for me tho)
///LiMandri's a very good, very competent attorney
/he wouldn't bother to comment on it if it didn't have merit